One of the saddest facts about the C&D Pikes Peak article is that they say battery-depleted hybrids well below the tree line gasping along on their tiny naturally aspirated gas motors when in fact the Prius can climb & charge at the same time, then they use the sub-title of "Tech Stuff" ...
I guess the only way to settle this is for someone to make a run up Pike's Peak in a hybrid. Any volunteers? I would like to hear from people in Colorado as to the way the hybrids perform under those conditions.
I just recently took a leg of a trip (606 miles) from Durango, Co up through Moab Utah to I 70 s and hooking up to I 15 S to Las Vegas Nv. Some of the most prettest scenic drives I have taken in a good long while. Most of that trip was at altitude (tables at 3,000-5,000 ft) I filled up in Durango, CO and fueled just outside of Las Vegas NV with 12.1 gals at 581 miles. Driving timefor the 606 miles time 7 hours and I got 48 mpg!!!!
If you live next to a VW dealership and don't mind your car parked in thier driveway more than yours, buy the VW.
If you would like to drive your car (instead of the many VW loaner cars), buy the Honda.
The Jetta is at the bottom of JD Power Quality surveys, it is in the DO NOT BUY column of Consumer Reports with deplorable quality and Jetta sales are off 25% versus a year ago.
I have a 2004 Honda Civic and 2003 VW Jetta TDI, side by side. Although the Honda has 3000 miles and the Jetta has 45,000 miles they are both neck and neck: ZERO defects! Honda is a fuel hog however @ 35/39 vs VW Jetta TDI 47/51.
The Jetta is at the bottom of JD Power Quality surveys,.....with deplorable quality and Jetta sales are off 25% versus a year ago.
VW has 1.6 defects versus Hondas 1 defect for every new vehicle sold in initial quality. In long-term dependability, the VW has 3.6 problems vs 2.1 for Honda. If the difference between "deplorable" and "walking on water" is 1.5 defects over 3 years I'm not sure the "R" word should even be concern for any new vehicle buyer.
VW is having a terrible time with sales, mainly because they have products that are older than the average Honda driver. Of course the feature content of my 5 year old VW will give a new Honda a run for its money. I won't stick up for the (mis)management of VW or their dealers, but one of these cars is a boring piece of metal and the other is quite entertaining. And if I've got to visit the dealer for a repair 1.5 extra times over three years then that seems like a reasonable trade-off.
If you would like to drive your car (instead of the many VW loaner cars), buy the Honda.
You might tell that to "lapdogman", his dealer is 100 miles away and cannot fix his HCH. May have to call in a factory specialist. He would like to invoke the "Lemon Law". It will end up costing him a fortune. When all he wanted was a high mileage car for his long commute. He would have been better off with the elegant simplicity of a VW Jetta TDI. Equal or better mileage and easier to find people able to work on them.
I know how he feels. I bought a 1978 Honda Accord from a dealer 85 miles from my farm. I was in there so many times and some things never got fixed. I have not bought a Honda since. Honda has had a run of troubles lately with transmissions and CR-Vs bursting into flames. At least the VW troubles are not life threatening or problems that leave you stranded.
PS Honda won't even give him a loaner... So you are right on one thing. It is an easy choice, buy the VW TDI..
"You might tell that to "lapdogman", his dealer is 100 miles away and cannot fix his HCH. May have to call in a factory specialist. He would like to invoke the "Lemon Law". It will end up costing him a fortune. When all he wanted was a high mileage car for his long commute."
This is one person. What will cost a fortune? This is what warranty is for. Are you saying that VW has 100% customer satisfaction with zero defects and none are "lemon"?
"Honda has had a run of troubles lately with transmissions"
This is Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid, not Jetta vs. regular Civic or 78 Accord or CRV's.
Can you show where Honda is having current problems with their CVT or HCH MT?
"At least the VW troubles are not life threatening or problems that leave you stranded." Are you saying Jetta has had zero problems with any safety equipment or never leave you stranded?
There are lots of data contrary to your statement.
There are lots of data contrary to your statement.
I have given you an example of a customer that is totally frustrated with his HCH. He has no where to go with his problem. The Honda dealer is clueless and not getting it fixed. It is under warranty. Honda gives no loaner car as VW is noted for. Does that make Honda second rate? I don't know.
Now if you will show evidence where people had safety issues with the Jetta TDI or left stranded I'll have something to chew on.
I haven't scanned over the Jetta conplaint WWW boards so I'll have to accept that VW has never had any issue with anyone's safety equipment and no one has ever been left stranded, and everyone is a satisfied, happy and repeat VW customer.
The anecdotal evidence is a mile long for any vehicle you'd like to search. There's many a "lemon" Lexus running around if you'd like to bad-mouth that brand. As I stated above, scientific evidence shows the difference between the best and worst cars on the road is minimal.
We are getting personal and attacking here. Agree to disagree and move on. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion based on their experiences, readings, etc. NO car is perfect, every car has faults.
C'mon gagrice. You will lose credibility here real fast if you tout VW's quality is better than Honda, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding.
I love the TDI and am not a fan of hybrids, but there is no bypassing the quality issues of the VWs, and unfortunately VW is the only practical diesel option we have in NA.
A couple years ago I bought a 55 Chevy...boy that thing cost me an arm and a leg to keep running. As a result, I am not going to buy Chevy's because they don't run well... :-)
Every auto publication is citing that VW is going to lose over a $$ Billion this year primarily because of quality and secondly an aging product line.
Read the forums here and compare upset VW owners with upset Honda owners. Check our www.myvwlemon.com. Just checked and can't seem to find www.myhondalemon.com.
The service manager that can't seem to find the defect in my wife's new bug cabrio told me...and I quote "be thankful you didn't buy the turbo. Every turbo we have sold, including the TDI has been in here many many times and we have 10-15 lemon law cases currently pending."
If you are buying a used VW Jetta TDI or Civic Hybrid. You will get better service from VW. That is not my assumption or something I have made up. I think Honda has fallen asleep in there glory. They are going to wake up and find they are no longer king of the reliability heap. If you look at the JD Power criteria, you will find that a loose screw in the trim has the same weight as a faulty transmission. VW does have problems with little stuff. They are paying for that with a bad reputation. As far as my credibility, I am a researcher and pass on what I see. Biased yes because I believe that diesel has not been given the attention it deserves in this country. We are wasting fuel here and slapping band aids in the form of overly complex, high priced, low value hybrids to cover up our wastefulness.
Overall, Jaguar was judged the best Luxury program and Volkswagen the best Non-Luxury program. Programs are rated according to the inspection lists, warranties, title verification, availability of special financing roadside assistance benefits, and return/exchange policies to determine those that offer the most benefits to the consumer.
Since I have them side by side, I can tell you that the quality of the VW Jetta vs Honda Civic is MUCH better!! You don't have to own them, but really, all you need do is to put them side by side. So I would surmise from the comments, that has not been done.
The real question is whether the real or perceived quality differences have converted to real or perceived sales real or perceived satisfaction etc etc., is probably the holy grail of the bottom line, etc. etc.
One easy one: 12 year rust through vs 5 year rust through. Who cares? Obviously not the Honda owners who bought the 5 year vs the 12 year product. Truly, it goes on and on.
Upshot: By a whole list of benchmarks, Honda has done a great job of selling its cars.
Volkswagen has released the first official photos and information of its all-new, fifth-generation Jetta sedan, which is set to make its worldwide debut at the upcoming Los Angeles Auto Show in January.
gagrice quote-"If you are buying a used VW Jetta TDI or Civic Hybrid. You will get better service from VW."-end quote
Perhaps true, but the rub is that with the VW, you will be AT the service dept far more than with the HCH. VW reliability is way poorer across the model line than Honda.
All those links show is a different summation of Consumer Reports "data". The only scientific data I've seen is JD Powers, which shows the actual numerical difference between "Best" and "Worst". An extra visit to the dealer in three years is hardly substantial when you look at the raw numbers. But if one repair is what breaks the median barrier.....
I can't make sense out of something being "less than average" until I know exactly what "average" means in the first place!
How many problems per 100 vehicles does the Civic Hybrid have vs the Jetta diesel? Anyone?
If you are buying a used VW Jetta TDI or Civic Hybrid. You will get better service from VW. That is not my assumption or something I have made up.
We are not comparing relative merits of their service departments. Me personally, I have never set foot in a dealership service department nor do I plan to.
I think Honda has fallen asleep in there glory. They are going to wake up and find they are no longer king of the reliability heap. If you look at the JD Power criteria, you will find that a loose screw in the trim has the same weight as a faulty transmission. VW does have problems with little stuff. They are paying for that with a bad reputation. As far as my credibility, I am a researcher and pass on what I see.
Maybe so, but if you are of the "fill it shut it drive it" type, you are much better off in a Honda than in a VW. Mind you I am not talking about the HCH but Hondas in general.
Biased yes because I believe that diesel has not been given the attention it deserves in this country. We are wasting fuel here and slapping band aids in the form of overly complex, high priced, low value hybrids to cover up our wastefulness.
I agree with you 100% here. I am even more of a sceptic than you are about hybrids and I do love the diesels. But I am not sure I can live with the quirkiness of VWs on a daily basis. I do believe if the Accord iCDti is plentifully available in NA, it would wipe a very significant portion of VW diesels and an even more significant portion of the hybrid market out.
Perhaps the market to really look at is the European market (45% of the passenger vehicle fleet is diesel and not surprisingly; GROWING). The Honda diesel (reputedly 43 mpg highway)(TSX?) (mated to our version "Accord") was specifically designed to offer advantages in that market.
So one way to start to frame the discussion is : at a growth rate of less than 1-2% starting with less than 2% of the total vehicle fleet, how long will it take (given a 8% yearly salvage rate) to grow this unpopular and politically incorrect segment of transportation products to 45% of our total passenger vehicle fleet!?
We were in a discussion of reliability of HCH vs Jetta and I was wondering what the personal attack was, other than posting links related to the subject?
If it was offensive I apologize. I was wondering why my related links were removed, and others are not?
I do believe if the Accord iCDti is plentifully available in NA, it would wipe a very significant portion of VW diesels and an even more significant portion of the hybrid market out.
I think you may be right on this one. I am intrigued by that engine and the Accord speaks for itself.
Back to VW TDI vs Civic hybrid. This has not gotten much attention. The safety of the VW cars vs the Civic. Read for your self from the people that set your insurance rates. The Civic is not a great car for safety. The Jetta gets higher marks all around. two different references:
So "plentifully available" might be the following. 4% (to match VW's USA percentage) of the Honda Accord/Civic yearly sales say of 700,000 units (I don't really know the exact number) would = 28,000 iCTDI units!!!
The Honda sales goal in Europe is for the diesel to be fully 1/3 of total sales.
You know what I found interesting about that site. On their sales brochure with all the different models of Civic available. No hybrids listed. I wonder if they even try selling the hybrid in the UK. Only Americans are gullible enough to buy the hybrid is what I am thinking. That new Civic diesel gets 56.5 combined mpg which is about 47 mpg US.
This is conjecture on my part, but I think the hybrid would have REAL problems over in Europe. First off it it is a gasser, so not only is fuel more expensive than diesel, but is FAR costly to buy and the repair costs are really not cost effective.Let me be even more specific. Over a diesel or even a gasser Civic, the hybrid Civic will almost never B/E. Secondly, diesel fuel is app 37% on up more efficient than gas. It also takes far less "upstream" resources to process a gal of diesel than unleaded regular to boot! While gas here is like 2 plus dollars (which to me is HIGH) in the UK/Europe we are talking 5-7 dollars. I also don't think the hybrid can cut it at typical autobahn speeds!! We as Americans can walk around acting "math" challenged but really it is simple: IS 47/49 mph Civic ICTDI/VW Jetta TDI(diesel) better/worse than 39 mph Civic (gasser)? Of course Americans would say 39 mph is MUCH better!!!?????
The Civic hybrid might be in the "zone" in the stop and go "rush hour" traffic of say: Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, Salt Lake City, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Boston, NYC, Chicago, Wash DC. But again, time will tell how it stands up to these punishing types of environments and the four seasons.
I also like the fact that the TDI's lifecycle is 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles. We in the USA have a avg fleet age of 8.5 years and 12-15k per year. As expensive as it is to buy new every two to 8.5 years what is not to like about a life cycle 3.92 times greater than our avg?
That is worth the 12 minutes to watch. I would buy a Honda with that engine. They took long enough to get around to building a diesel engine. Looks like they will have a winner at least in the rest of the World.
Don't you find it odd that Europeans paying $5+ per gallon of gas, are not jumping on the hybrids? Is it possible we are being duped by Toyota & Honda?
When you do a Google search for Hybrids in Europe most of the links are for breeding hybrid dogs and hybrid orchids. They are probably laughing at us as we speak. If Honda went to the expense to develop a wonderful diesel from the ground up, you know they are planning to sell them, not just in Europe. Hopefully here as well.
In reading the flurry of posts from today, it appears that much of the discussion has veered to general VW v. Honda quality. We can create a discussion for that in the News & Views, but this discussion should be more focused on the TDI v. the Civic Hybrid. Yes, there is **some** discussion about quality, etc., but we seem to have taken that path of the topic too far.
Let's get back to comparing these two specific vehicles - feature comparison, handling, performance, etc.
Sorry for my post #112, and to Sylvia our host for posting links to other forums. I did a Google search under Jetta problems and was overwhelmed by seemingly endless pages of complaints.
I had taken the time to go through those links and eliminated those to other forums. The new dozen or so links i compiled were non-forum related. Problems ranging from windows falling out, clutches, bearings, wheel puncturing the fuel filler tube causing fires as a short list.
But I guess pointing out the unreliability of a VW Jetta over a Honda HCH isn't allowed.
The only thing I can suggest is do your own research.
In all fairness this is a debate between two cars that get equal mileage or close to equal. The Honda Civic hybrid and the VW Jetta TDI. It did veer off in other areas of debate. My point is the simple diesel technology that is incorporated in the VW TDI is superior to the Honda Hybrid from a purely economical standpoint. If we were able to get actual cost analysis on the manufacturing of the two it would be helpful. I would imagine that is proprietary information. If the hybrid is the way to go for economy and emissions why are they ignoring it in Europe where gas is 2 or 3 times more than the USA?
My take is that everyone in the World knows we are easy targets for anything new and the automakers are using us as guinea pigs for their experiments in different forms of vehicular motivation. We are being used and are the laughing stock of the World. Clear and simple.. Why are we even worried about the cost of gas at $2.50 per gallon? It was higher than that when I was in High School back in 1958. My old 1948 Cadillac got 10 mpg and I had enough money mowing lawns to buy gas. Only one time did it get really out of line. That was during the Carter Administration from 1979-1980
I agree the both cars are similar in price and average MPG. My point is that the HCH clearly comes ahead in the economic standpoint.
My take on this is that the HCH...even Honda's IMA system which has been around for years have not had any significant manufacturing or engineering quality problems, while the Jetta may or may not be a simpler system, VW can't seem to get it right. Just do the search yourself and it speaks for itself. Shall I buy a car that has an excellent overall quality record or take a gamble with a poor one?
You mention Europeans....Hmm...That's a debatable topic in itself. Not sure if we are "The worlds guinea pigs". If Japan mass produces a gasoline car that can average over 90MPG in a coupe or in my case over 60MPG per tank family car then I don't mind trying it out. Around Atlanta diesel fuel is $.20 / gallon more expensive than gasoline...in the scattered stations that even sell it.
This is a nice video, most of the techonology applied to the Honda diesel is Honda's original technology from the 70's (CVCC) and through the 90's (variable intake, valve lift and timing). Maybe we will see a Honda diesel here soon. I will be the first to buy it, and maybe convert it to biodiesel or grease power.
Consumer Reports is as reliable a source as you need, because they rely on data from REAL owners driving REAL cars.
I didn't say they weren't reliable or didn't rely on real data, I said they don't present THEIR data in a manner that can be comprehended to it's full extent. JD Powers is at least equally reliable and presents ALL the data. You can easily see on JD Powers long-term study that the difference between the best and worst, is only two problems over three years. With CR, all we know is one is "much better than average" and one is "much worse than average". We also don't know what "average" even means.
Most of the problems (even if you accept the ancedotal data just by googling) you'll find on a Jetta TDI are not TDI specific. There are only a couple major problems VW has had over the years with this platform that has caused recalls or extension of the warranty. One was a massive failure of coils, which doesn't apply to TDI's. The other was early model power window clips, which applied to all cars and were replaced for free. The only TDI specific problem was a round of bad MAF sensors that were replaced upto 70k miles for free.
I've crossed over 100k miles with my TDI and so far it's been more reliable than my last Camry. Far less boring too.
Since you all like anecdotal studies, how about googling and figuring out how many folks are completely satisfied with their Hybrids or TDI's. I think you'll find most folks only come to the internet to complain, not praise. Which is why studies like JD Powers is important because it puts things into perspective without dumbing down our intelligence to believe that something "worse than average" is a complete piece of garbage just because it's below average. It's called playing on peoples emotions, happens all the time.
quote gagrice-"Is it possible we are being duped by Toyota & Honda?"-gagrice
Gary, Gary, Gary. DUPED? In what way? That they are giving us clean, efficient, affordable, modern, technologically advanced, reliable vehicles that achieve 50+ MPG?
I spent $23.60 on fuel for my Civic Hybrid last month. If that is getting DUPED then call me Mr. Duped.
Even if I had spent more money on a Jetta TDI, and had I gotten 55 MPG last month, I still would have known that my exhaust was dirtier.
I think the choice between a Jetta TDI and a Civic Hybrid is clear.
DUPED? In what way? That they are giving us clean, efficient, affordable, modern, technologically advanced, reliable vehicles that achieve 50+ MPG?
Someone is paying for that R&D. Who? I think those that buy the cars and our tax dollars. I know in your case you got a good deal on your HCH compared to a equally equipped non hybrid Civic. Maybe they will start lowering the prices on them. Many are paying a premium that is money down the toilet. As far as reliability we will not know until a sizeable portion have crossed the 15 year or 150k mile useful lifespan. On the site that tracks hybrid mileage out of 56 HCH cars reporting their mileage none are over 50k miles. Most people do not consider a car broken in until at least 50k miles. Only time will tell on the reliability. Prius are starting to show their age and along with it some bad news for owners. Keep your fingers crossed.
The point for me is the time frame and the mileage frame. There is not doubt for me that the Jetta TDI at 45,000 miles will be going to 100,000 miles (knock on wood, trouble free.) But really the neatest thing is being able to look at 250,000, 500,000, 750,000 and 1,000,000 miles and beyond. Sure there will be things that I will need to change. But you will need to change them in a Honda also. The usual suspects are tires, brake pads, rotors, brake fluid, struts/shocks, bearings. If you have a clutch(I do) 400,000 will probably see a clutch job. If you have an automatic 100-200k will see a fluid flush. I will need 50 oil and oil filter changes, 33 air filters, 17 fuel filters. I will need up to 10 timing belt changes and 5/10 water pumps.
We basically suffer from the 150,000 mile or less short attention span syndrome, especially on the hybrid!! This is conjecture on my part, but long after we lose interest in either or both VW Jetta TDI or Civic Hybrid, my hope is this TDI will still be on the road.
Before I sold (bought for 16k sold for 9k) a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser (14 years old) with app 250,000 miles, I was forced to take it to a smog "test" only station. The "test only" station is mandated to have a higher failure rate than say your local smog test station. (plus you have to pay double for the privilege of increased chance of failing) It not only passed but was WAY below. I recently had to take another Toyota Landcruiser 10 years old with 117,000 miles to a "test only station" and exactly the same thing; it was WAY below and some critical "failure measurements" were almost statistically insignificant.
. I would imagine that is proprietary information. If the hybrid is the way to go for economy and emissions why are they ignoring it in Europe where gas is 2 or 3 times more than the USA?
My take is that everyone in the World knows we are easy targets for anything new and the automakers are using us as guinea pigs for their experiments in different forms of vehicular motivation. We are being used and are the laughing stock of the World. Clear and simple..
It's obvious why hybrids sell in the US more than Europe. Diesel is taxed higher so it costs the same as gasoline (year round average) although it costs less to produce.
Emission laws are geared to diesel's disadvantage.
Hollywood types promoting hybrids.
And then we have people proclaiming that cars can't be expected to last longer than 8 yrs/150K miles ignoring the fact that the longer you keep a car after that point the lesser you spend per mile.
The TDI is a fine example of what a modern diesel can offer. Now if it only wasn't made by VW...
"The TDI is a fine example of what a modern diesel can offer. Now if it only wasn't made by VW... "
I would also agree! VW AND Honda have used so called "interference" designs in the past. I am excited about the Honda diesel's entry. I see from some web sites that Hondas intention is to have its diesel's in Europe be eventually 33.3% of its sales. Since I don't know as much about the Honda diesel, as say, the VW's, reservation of judgment is in order.
Personally if I have any axe to grind, it is on both sides of the "AXE"!
I just recently bought a Honda Civic after considering Golf/Jetta TDI, Toyota Corolla/Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid/gasser. So defacto, I have in effect set up a longitudinal study! My target for the Honda Civic is a min of 250,000 miles. This may not be on topic but the nexus helped in the decision making between hybrids Toyota and Civic.
"But really the neatest thing is being able to look at 250,000, 500,000, 750,000 and 1,000,000 miles and beyond."
I keep my vehicles for 10 years. After that I'm tired of them and ready for a new one. With my commute I'll reach 150K miles around 9.5 years so I'm right on schedule. My daily commute 5 days a week is almost 100 miles.
Most folks would get rid of a car before 250K miles. I personally wouldn't keep a car in service for 40 to 60 years, keeping up the emission equipment and other maintenance requirements, only to see a million miles.
And yes, doing a google search for car problems should be part of the information gathering when deciding on a new car, even if it is a VW TDI.
I really should have kept the TLC that I mentioned. When I sold it, it easily had 20 years left on the body, frame, the engine was also able to be rehabbed at least two times. Clutch could have gone to at least 400,000. I was offered more money for it than I reasonably expected and had too many vehicles! Oh well.
In CA anyway, 30 years and your car is totally EXEMPT from emissions requirements!! ?? I am also glad that there is currently no emissions test required for TDI's. I really don't know what the requirement is for the Civic hybrid. As the gasser Civic is also an ULEV, I am guessing it will be exempt like any other new vehicle for 4 years and then bi annual (every two years) then at the 10th year probably a "test only" station visit is required. Just this long term requirement costs 230 dollars more than the TDI, and that is of course if nothing goes "wrong"
My personal take on the whole situation is that once clean diesel is availble in this country, the advantages of Diesel clearly outweigh the advantages of hybrids. A Diesel engine is good basic technology that many mechanics are already trained to work on and in general a good diesel engine will outlast a gas engine. Hybrids add extra weight in batteries and motors to a car; electric motors that most mechanics do not know how to service.
Regarding Consumer Reports; their surveys are not scientific and ultimately are terribly subjective; particularly when one considers that different groups tend to buy different cars (the same is true of J.D. Powers initial quality survey which at least provides hard numbers.. a few years ago the Porshe 911 took it on the chin because its radio had poor AM reception.). Some groups are pickier about what they consider to be a problem than others.
For the record I own a 1998 VW Jetta whose only problem was a leaky sunroof (And that might have been installed by the dealer) in over 130,000 miles. Even if VW is the worst quality car today they are still much better in initial quality than almost any car that was made 20 years ago... and I still remember fondly the 1980 Subaru that was my first car...
Comments
If you would like to drive your car (instead of the many VW loaner cars), buy the Honda.
The Jetta is at the bottom of JD Power Quality surveys, it is in the DO NOT BUY column of Consumer Reports with deplorable quality and Jetta sales are off 25% versus a year ago.
VW has 1.6 defects versus Hondas 1 defect for every new vehicle sold in initial quality. In long-term dependability, the VW has 3.6 problems vs 2.1 for Honda. If the difference between "deplorable" and "walking on water" is 1.5 defects over 3 years I'm not sure the "R" word should even be concern for any new vehicle buyer.
VW is having a terrible time with sales, mainly because they have products that are older than the average Honda driver. Of course the feature content of my 5 year old VW will give a new Honda a run for its money. I won't stick up for the (mis)management of VW or their dealers, but one of these cars is a boring piece of metal and the other is quite entertaining. And if I've got to visit the dealer for a repair 1.5 extra times over three years then that seems like a reasonable trade-off.
You might tell that to "lapdogman", his dealer is 100 miles away and cannot fix his HCH. May have to call in a factory specialist. He would like to invoke the "Lemon Law". It will end up costing him a fortune. When all he wanted was a high mileage car for his long commute. He would have been better off with the elegant simplicity of a VW Jetta TDI. Equal or better mileage and easier to find people able to work on them.
I know how he feels. I bought a 1978 Honda Accord from a dealer 85 miles from my farm. I was in there so many times and some things never got fixed. I have not bought a Honda since. Honda has had a run of troubles lately with transmissions and CR-Vs bursting into flames. At least the VW troubles are not life threatening or problems that leave you stranded.
PS
Honda won't even give him a loaner... So you are right on one thing. It is an easy choice, buy the VW TDI..
This is one person. What will cost a fortune?
This is what warranty is for.
Are you saying that VW has 100% customer satisfaction with zero defects and none are "lemon"?
"Honda has had a run of troubles lately with transmissions"
This is Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid, not
Jetta vs. regular Civic or 78 Accord or CRV's.
Can you show where Honda is having current problems with their CVT or HCH MT?
"At least the VW troubles are not life threatening or problems that leave you stranded."
Are you saying Jetta has had zero problems with any safety equipment or never leave you stranded?
There are lots of data contrary to your statement.
I have given you an example of a customer that is totally frustrated with his HCH. He has no where to go with his problem. The Honda dealer is clueless and not getting it fixed. It is under warranty. Honda gives no loaner car as VW is noted for. Does that make Honda second rate? I don't know.
Now if you will show evidence where people had safety issues with the Jetta TDI or left stranded I'll have something to chew on.
have to accept that VW has never had any issue with anyone's safety equipment and no one has ever been left stranded, and everyone is a satisfied, happy and repeat VW customer.
Anyone like to see my $3 bill?
Let's move on please.
I love the TDI and am not a fan of hybrids, but there is no bypassing the quality issues of the VWs, and unfortunately VW is the only practical diesel option we have in NA.
Every auto publication is citing that VW is going to lose over a $$ Billion this year primarily because of quality and secondly an aging product line.
Read the forums here and compare upset VW owners with upset Honda owners. Check our www.myvwlemon.com. Just checked and can't seem to find www.myhondalemon.com.
The service manager that can't seem to find the defect in my wife's new bug cabrio told me...and I quote "be thankful you didn't buy the turbo. Every turbo we have sold, including the TDI has been in here many many times and we have 10-15 lemon law cases currently pending."
Overall, Jaguar was judged the best Luxury program and Volkswagen the best Non-Luxury program. Programs are rated according to the inspection lists, warranties, title verification, availability of special financing roadside assistance benefits, and return/exchange policies to determine those that offer the most benefits to the consumer.
http://www.intellichoice.com/preowned/pre-main
The real question is whether the real or perceived quality differences have converted to real or perceived sales real or perceived satisfaction etc etc., is probably the holy grail of the bottom line, etc. etc.
One easy one: 12 year rust through vs 5 year rust through. Who cares? Obviously not the Honda owners who bought the 5 year vs the 12 year product. Truly, it goes on and on.
Upshot: By a whole list of benchmarks, Honda has done a great job of selling its cars.
Thank You, I was dying here and I don't own either one. Though after much research, I would definitely buy the VW Jetta Wagon TDI over the HCH.
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101305
Perhaps true, but the rub is that with the VW, you will be AT the service dept far more than with the HCH. VW reliability is way poorer across the model line than Honda.
See this article from earlier this month.
http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/08/pf/autos/cr_auto_reliability/
Look at these page for charts that DIRECTLY compare the VW line versus the Honda line:
http://www.autooninfo.info/VolkswagenLineReliabilitySubIndex.htm
http://www.autooninfo.org/RelGrHiStandardsVolkswagen.htm
http://www.autooninfo.info/ReliabilityPercentranksMotorVehicle.ht- m
Under no circumstances does VW excel over Honda.
I can't make sense out of something being "less than average" until I know exactly what "average" means in the first place!
How many problems per 100 vehicles does the Civic Hybrid have vs the Jetta diesel? Anyone?
We are not comparing relative merits of their service departments. Me personally, I have never set foot in a dealership service department nor do I plan to.
I think Honda has fallen asleep in there glory. They are going to wake up and find they are no longer king of the reliability heap. If you look at the JD Power criteria, you will find that a loose screw in the trim has the same weight as a faulty transmission. VW does have problems with little stuff. They are paying for that with a bad reputation. As far as my credibility, I am a researcher and pass on what I see.
Maybe so, but if you are of the "fill it shut it drive it" type, you are much better off in a Honda than in a VW. Mind you I am not talking about the HCH but Hondas in general.
Biased yes because I believe that diesel has not been given the attention it deserves in this country. We are wasting fuel here and slapping band aids in the form of overly complex, high priced, low value hybrids to cover up our wastefulness.
I agree with you 100% here. I am even more of a sceptic than you are about hybrids and I do love the diesels. But I am not sure I can live with the quirkiness of VWs on a daily basis. I do believe if the Accord iCDti is plentifully available in NA, it would wipe a very significant portion of VW diesels and an even more significant portion of the hybrid market out.
USA VW's, I have read is like less than 4% diesel. So you can imagine the total passenger vehicle fleet ("The number of registered vehicles increased from 225.7 million in 2002 to 230.2 million in 2003." . http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/announce/press/pressdisplay.cfm?ye- - - - - - - ar=2004&filename=FFARSrls404.html)
is probably less than 2% (460,000; total diesels of all makes models) and I am probably exagerating.
So one way to start to frame the discussion is : at a growth rate of less than 1-2% starting with less than 2% of the total vehicle fleet, how long will it take (given a 8% yearly salvage rate) to grow this unpopular and politically incorrect segment of transportation products to 45% of our total passenger vehicle fleet!?
We were in a discussion of reliability of HCH vs Jetta and I was wondering what the personal attack was, other than posting links related to the subject?
If it was offensive I apologize.
I was wondering why my related links were removed, and others are not?
I think you may be right on this one. I am intrigued by that engine and the Accord speaks for itself.
Back to VW TDI vs Civic hybrid. This has not gotten much attention. The safety of the VW cars vs the Civic. Read for your self from the people that set your insurance rates. The Civic is not a great car for safety. The Jetta gets higher marks all around. two different references:
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_4dr.htm
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/summaries/small_overa- ll_c.htm
The Honda sales goal in Europe is for the diesel to be fully 1/3 of total sales.
UK ICTDI Civic http://www.tridenthonda.co.uk/honda/civic_diesel.html
Civic blows Jetta away in every category.
The Civic hybrid might be in the "zone" in the stop and go "rush hour" traffic of say: Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, Salt Lake City, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Boston, NYC, Chicago, Wash DC. But again, time will tell how it stands up to these punishing types of environments and the four seasons.
I also like the fact that the TDI's lifecycle is 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles. We in the USA have a avg fleet age of 8.5 years and 12-15k per year. As expensive as it is to buy new every two to 8.5 years what is not to like about a life cycle 3.92 times greater than our avg?
http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2003-4030226_1a/
Don't you find it odd that Europeans paying $5+ per gallon of gas, are not jumping on the hybrids? Is it possible we are being duped by Toyota & Honda?
Let's get back to comparing these two specific vehicles - feature comparison, handling, performance, etc.
I did a Google search under Jetta problems and was overwhelmed by seemingly endless pages of complaints.
I had taken the time to go through those links and eliminated those to other forums.
The new dozen or so links i compiled were non-forum related.
Problems ranging from windows falling out, clutches, bearings, wheel puncturing the fuel filler tube causing fires as a short list.
But I guess pointing out the unreliability of a VW Jetta over a Honda HCH isn't allowed.
The only thing I can suggest is do your own research.
My take is that everyone in the World knows we are easy targets for anything new and the automakers are using us as guinea pigs for their experiments in different forms of vehicular motivation. We are being used and are the laughing stock of the World. Clear and simple.. Why are we even worried about the cost of gas at $2.50 per gallon? It was higher than that when I was in High School back in 1958. My old 1948 Cadillac got 10 mpg and I had enough money mowing lawns to buy gas. Only one time did it get really out of line. That was during the Carter Administration from 1979-1980
My take on this is that the HCH...even Honda's IMA system which has been around for years have not had any significant manufacturing or engineering quality problems, while the Jetta may or may not be a simpler system, VW can't seem to get it right.
Just do the search yourself and it speaks for itself.
Shall I buy a car that has an excellent overall quality record or take a gamble with a poor one?
You mention Europeans....Hmm...That's a debatable topic in itself.
Not sure if we are "The worlds guinea pigs".
If Japan mass produces a gasoline car that can average over 90MPG in a coupe or in my case over 60MPG per tank family car then I don't mind trying it out.
Around Atlanta diesel fuel is $.20 / gallon more expensive than gasoline...in the scattered stations that even sell it.
http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2003-4030226_1a/
This is a nice video, most of the techonology applied to the Honda diesel is Honda's original technology from the 70's (CVCC) and through the 90's (variable intake, valve lift and timing). Maybe we will see a Honda diesel here soon. I will be the first to buy it, and maybe convert it to biodiesel or grease power.
I didn't say they weren't reliable or didn't rely on real data, I said they don't present THEIR data in a manner that can be comprehended to it's full extent. JD Powers is at least equally reliable and presents ALL the data. You can easily see on JD Powers long-term study that the difference between the best and worst, is only two problems over three years. With CR, all we know is one is "much better than average" and one is "much worse than average". We also don't know what "average" even means.
Most of the problems (even if you accept the ancedotal data just by googling) you'll find on a Jetta TDI are not TDI specific. There are only a couple major problems VW has had over the years with this platform that has caused recalls or extension of the warranty. One was a massive failure of coils, which doesn't apply to TDI's. The other was early model power window clips, which applied to all cars and were replaced for free. The only TDI specific problem was a round of bad MAF sensors that were replaced upto 70k miles for free.
I've crossed over 100k miles with my TDI and so far it's been more reliable than my last Camry. Far less boring too.
Since you all like anecdotal studies, how about googling and figuring out how many folks are completely satisfied with their Hybrids or TDI's. I think you'll find most folks only come to the internet to complain, not praise. Which is why studies like JD Powers is important because it puts things into perspective without dumbing down our intelligence to believe that something "worse than average" is a complete piece of garbage just because it's below average. It's called playing on peoples emotions, happens all the time.
Gary, Gary, Gary. DUPED? In what way? That they are giving us clean, efficient, affordable, modern, technologically advanced, reliable vehicles that achieve 50+ MPG?
I spent $23.60 on fuel for my Civic Hybrid last month. If that is getting DUPED then call me Mr. Duped.
Even if I had spent more money on a Jetta TDI, and had I gotten 55 MPG last month, I still would have known that my exhaust was dirtier.
I think the choice between a Jetta TDI and a Civic Hybrid is clear.
Someone is paying for that R&D. Who? I think those that buy the cars and our tax dollars. I know in your case you got a good deal on your HCH compared to a equally equipped non hybrid Civic. Maybe they will start lowering the prices on them. Many are paying a premium that is money down the toilet. As far as reliability we will not know until a sizeable portion have crossed the 15 year or 150k mile useful lifespan. On the site that tracks hybrid mileage out of 56 HCH cars reporting their mileage none are over 50k miles. Most people do not consider a car broken in until at least 50k miles. Only time will tell on the reliability. Prius are starting to show their age and along with it some bad news for owners. Keep your fingers crossed.
We basically suffer from the 150,000 mile or less short attention span syndrome, especially on the hybrid!! This is conjecture on my part, but long after we lose interest in either or both VW Jetta TDI or Civic Hybrid, my hope is this TDI will still be on the road.
Before I sold (bought for 16k sold for 9k) a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser (14 years old) with app 250,000 miles, I was forced to take it to a smog "test" only station. The "test only" station is mandated to have a higher failure rate than say your local smog test station. (plus you have to pay double for the privilege of increased chance of failing)
My take is that everyone in the World knows we are easy targets for anything new and the automakers are using us as guinea pigs for their experiments in different forms of vehicular motivation. We are being used and are the laughing stock of the World. Clear and simple..
It's obvious why hybrids sell in the US more than Europe.
Diesel is taxed higher so it costs the same as gasoline (year round average) although it costs less to produce.
Emission laws are geared to diesel's disadvantage.
Hollywood types promoting hybrids.
And then we have people proclaiming that cars can't be expected to last longer than 8 yrs/150K miles ignoring the fact that the longer you keep a car after that point the lesser you spend per mile.
The TDI is a fine example of what a modern diesel can offer. Now if it only wasn't made by VW...
I would also agree! VW AND Honda have used so called "interference" designs in the past. I am excited about the Honda diesel's entry. I see from some web sites that Hondas intention is to have its diesel's in Europe be eventually 33.3% of its sales. Since I don't know as much about the Honda diesel, as say, the VW's, reservation of judgment is in order.
Personally if I have any axe to grind, it is on both sides of the "AXE"!
I just recently bought a Honda Civic after considering Golf/Jetta TDI, Toyota Corolla/Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid/gasser. So defacto, I have in effect set up a longitudinal study! My target for the Honda Civic is a min of 250,000 miles. This may not be on topic but the nexus helped in the decision making between hybrids Toyota and Civic.
I keep my vehicles for 10 years. After that I'm tired of them and ready for a new one.
With my commute I'll reach 150K miles around 9.5 years so I'm right on schedule. My daily commute 5 days a week is almost 100 miles.
Most folks would get rid of a car before 250K miles.
I personally wouldn't keep a car in service for 40 to 60 years, keeping up the emission equipment and other maintenance requirements, only to see a million miles.
And yes, doing a google search for car problems should be part of the information gathering when deciding on a new car, even if it is a VW TDI.
I really should have kept the TLC that I mentioned. When I sold it, it easily had 20 years left on the body, frame, the engine was also able to be rehabbed at least two times. Clutch could have gone to at least 400,000. I was offered more money for it than I reasonably expected and had too many vehicles! Oh well.
In CA anyway, 30 years and your car is totally EXEMPT from emissions requirements!! ??
Regarding Consumer Reports; their surveys are not scientific and ultimately are terribly subjective; particularly when one considers that different groups tend to buy different cars (the same is true of J.D. Powers initial quality survey which at least provides hard numbers.. a few years ago the Porshe 911 took it on the chin because its radio had poor AM reception.). Some groups are pickier about what they consider to be a problem than others.
For the record I own a 1998 VW Jetta whose only problem was a leaky sunroof (And that might have been installed by the dealer) in over 130,000 miles. Even if VW is the worst quality car today they are still much better in initial quality than almost any car that was made 20 years ago... and I still remember fondly the 1980 Subaru that was my first car...