Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid

crazedcommuter

Thanks for the update on the '06 TDI's I did not know they were to be unveiled in March '05. The dealers should be on a sale blitz soon. I see VW has pulled the incentives and rebates off their homepage. I guess they're in the bunker planning the next sale plan. Yea this dealer in Md. dosent want to budge on his TDI prices. His stock is high and car sales are stagnant in the Md. Wash. DC metro area. Even Mercedes, and BMW are running the heck out of their ads through all types of media. These dealers gotta start dealing soon, or so you would think.

blueiedgod

BTW, the "size" of the Lupo (not the weight) is the same as a Mini Cooper. It's a five-seat car, no trunk.

  

And, you might want to consider that new Prius Plus car... when it's finally finished in 2006, it's supposed to go ~20 miles on pure EV. Just plug-it-in each night & burn zero gasoline.

 

This does not solve the problem, but simply relocates the emissions to other places on the SAME PLANET.

 

Where do you think electricity comes from? Mainly from burning coal. Until we convert to all nuclear (which has its drawbacks), or all hydro (with its drawbacks), or solar, wind, or other forms of renewable energy, pure electrics are only a temporary solution.

gagrice

Where do you think electricity comes from? Mainly from burning coal.

 

So true. I think I read that an electric vehicle costs about 25 cents to drive the same distance as 1 gallon of gas in an all ICE vehicle. This was driving the now extinct EV-1. You forgot my favorite form of electric generation "geothermal". Nuclear is still the cleanest practical source.

electrictroy

"Prius Plus car... when it's finished in 2006, it's supposed to go ~20 miles on pure EV. Just plug-it-in each night & burn zero gasoline."

 

.

  

"This does not solve the problem..."

 

.

 

I didn't say it did. Strawman argument. It's merely providing an option to burn electric instead of gasoline.

 

For comparison, EV1 = Prius in cleanliness, but the Insight is cleaner (greenercars.org). Unless of course you use solar electric.

 

troy

Sylvia

OK - we've veered off-topic the last few posts. Back to the TDI and Civid Hybrid please.

hanky

I negotiated down to $200 below invoice on a 2005 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon. Is that a good price?

midnightcowboy

You realize that there will be a completely new Jetta in March . It will still be called a 2005 (Look at the LA or Detroit Auto show blips to see info). The Houston dealers are offering ALL 2005 Jettas at $3,500 off MSRP including TDIs. Since VWs have only a small markup (Only $2,000 on a fully loaded GLS Jetta TDI wagon), then $200 below invoice doesn't sound like a great deal. $3,500 below MSRP is $1,500 or more below invoice.

 

However, I think you are still getting a good deal and you will be more pleased by the torque (performance, especially around town) and actual mileage (drive it normal , instead of being a greenie milage freak and you still get better than 40 mpg) on the TDI versus the HCH.

 

Good Luck,

 

MidCow

gagrice

you still get better than 40 mpg) on the TDI versus the HCH

 

Does the AC make any difference in mileage on the TDI? I think it makes a big difference on the HCH and other hybrids.

ruking1

Yes, I think it does. On some recent trips with AC on and off, it is 1-3 mpg. On similar runs, I have gotten 48(AC off) vs 46 (AC on). While the VW TDI AC does the job, is not as powerful as other cars, I have taken on road trips in 104 degree ambient temps!

misterme

"you will be more pleased by the torque (performance, especially around town) and actual mileage (drive it normal , instead of being a greenie milage freak and you still get better than 40 mpg) on the TDI versus the HCH"

 

I'm not sure where you got the 40MPG figure but the average MPG reported for 2004 by +60 real HCH owners is 47MPG. Most of these are "typical" drivers.

 

If you speak of "greenie or mileage freaks" then you are talking better than 60MPG with an HCH.

 

Lacking any TDI owner MPG database, according to Edmund's TDI forum pat, "VW Jetta TDI" #1, 28 Jun 2004 5:08 pm!make=Volkswagen&model=Jetta&ed_makeindex=.ef2cfb8

Most TDI's are getting low 40's MPG.

A few get around 50.

Here in Atlanta you'd pay a $.23 per gallon premium on fuel that is more difficult to find than gasoline, delivers poorer MPG and pay more for the car.

Edmunds TMV shows the 2005 TDI at about $23,500 with a couple normal options

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/volkswagen/jetta/100477736/option- - - sresults.html?action=2&tid=edmunds.n.options.ntmv.1.1.Volkswa- - - gen*

HCH costs about $4,000 cheaper at $19,500, fully loaded.

http://automobiles.honda.com/landing.asp

 

To be fair the TDI accelerates 3 seconds faster from 0-60 than the HCH, but you'll pay for that 3 seconds.

larsb

quote gagrice-"Does the AC make any difference in mileage on the TDI? I think it makes a big difference on the HCH and other hybrids."-end quote

 

A/C makes a difference in EVERY car because using the compressor burns fuel. Hybrids are not "special" in that way.

ruking1

I did the comparison between a Honda Civic Hybrid, Jetta TDI and Civic gasser and off topic (Toyota Prius). If you just compare the "guts" the Civic hybrid (20,000)is very close to slightly more on price than the TDI (18,000). When you compare the prices adding in the Civic then it almost becomes a no brainer to get the Honda Civic (12,500)gasser. While is might be off topic, the Toyota Prius (25,000 if you can buy it for even this price)is by far the most expensive. When you put numbers to your logic, the bias stands out.

midnightcowboy

I am not sure how often Edmund's TMV is being updated, but the price within the last month, really the last few weeks has goone from MSRP to $3,000-$3,500 below MSRP. You can get a fully loaded Jetta GLS 5-speed TDI for less than $20,000.

 

And the 3 second difference 0-60 mph is my make/break point. The TDI wins; the HCH loses. 13 seconds is jst too too slow!

 

Again the new Jetta 2005 avaialbe in March will be intriguing and has an extremely large trunk, 24.5 cu.ft.

 

The diesel premium has come down in Houston, now is costs about mid-grade and there seem to be plenty of stations that offer diesel fuel.

 

Thanks,

 

MidCow

gagrice

The diesel premium has come down in Houston, now is costs about mid-grade and there seem to be plenty of stations that offer diesel fuel.

 

San Diego diesel $2.019 regular unleaded $1.879 mid-grade $2.089 those are from the cheapest stations in the county.

larsb

I think it boils down to these decision points:

 

If you want the greener of the two, buy the HCH.

 

If you do a lot of 70 MPH hwy cruising or commuting, get the Jetta.

 

If you want a car that will stay out of the shop better and break down less often, get the HCH.

 

If you want to be able to drive it like a regular car and still get close to EPA MPG numbers, get the Jetta.

 

If your commute is short or is mostly City driving, get the HCH.

 

If you think diesel is the greatest thing since sliced bread (and you know who you are out there) then get the Jetta.

 

If you like cool new technology, and like to play the "how high can my MPG get?" game, get the HCH.

 

I think that boils it down to brass tacks. This thread can now be closed.

ruking1

Nah! I am still extremely curious how the HCH will do at 100,200,300,400,500k , etc mileage intervals.

 

May I also call attention to the fact that Honda (they put out a strategic press release on this) not only considers the diesel market viable, but intend to make THEIR diesel products app 35%-45% of their total sales in Europe. As you probably know Honda will be playing catch up! The European market for diesels is already making diesels 33-45% of the passenger vehicle fleet. They of course will not tolerate those %'s or numbers at the expense of the canabalization of their gasser sales!!

 

Also all the USA needs to do, is get on the environmentalist side and raise the price of unleaded gas in the USA to open up the flood gates of interest in diesels. The environmentalists are already in the hip pocket of fuel companies in advocating higher fuel prices, and changes in vehicles that almost would mandate higher vehicle prices. The enviromentalists would realize their fondest dreams if fuel were 6 dollars a gal, like in the UK. They see it as a viable policy and way to punish folks into "non use"

 

To beta test the concept,just as an example, how many folks will buy say an Honda HCH at 20k when you can get a Honda Civic for 12.5k? Or more mathematically, what,when, how is the BE for 7,500 dollars?

electrictroy

I doubt A/C makes any difference in TDI MPG. You've got an engine generating 30 horsepower @2000 rpm in 5th gear, but only need 20 hp to maintain highway speeds. So that leaves 30-20=10hp "spare" power to run the A/C without any impact on fuel economy.

 

In contrast a Honda Hybrid generates 21 hp @2000 rpm in 5th gear and uses 20 hp to maintain highway speed. 21-20=1 hp. There's virtually no spare power to run the A/C, and therefore the engine must spin faster/burn more fuel/lower MPG.

 

troy

larsb

quote ruking1-"To beta test the concept,just as an example, how many folks will buy say an Honda HCH at 20k when you can get a Honda Civic for 12.5k? Or more mathematically, what,when, how is the BE for 7,500 dollars?"-end quote

 

Well, those are truly both "Civics" but no one I know makes that choice, and making that choice is an apples to oranges comparison.

 

If you can afford only a $12,500 car, you can get a lot of decent cars in that price range. If you are looking for the "creature comforts" provided by and can afford a $20,000 car, then you are NOT shopping for a $12,500 car.

 

And your rant about the 100K to 500K thing is moot to about 99% of the people - SO VERY FEW people even CARE about keeping a car that long, much less the cost of dealing with a car with that high miles, are you kidding me? At those mileage levels, MANY MANY things besides the engine are breaking - electric window motors die, seats rip, plastic pieces corrode and break, rust attacks the body, rattles prevail, wind noise invades the cabin, the ignition key can be pulled out when the car is running, etc etc ad infinitum.

 

I had a Nissan I kept for 323,000 miles, and that engine was decent, but the rest of the car was basically TRASHED.

 

So whether or not you can keep an HCH up to 400K miles or not is a moot point to everyone except the MOST ANAL and stubbornest of people. Neither an HCH nor a Jetta will be much of a car at those mileage levels - sure, the engine might be decent, but the rest of the car will not be very nice. And ALL repairs are on the owner, ie not under warranty.

ruking1

Relatively, I would agree with you!

electrictroy

You can buy a non-hybrid Civic with the same "luxuries" as the Hybrid for about $2000 less. So why would someone who is short on cash choose the more expensive model?

 

troy

larsb

Actually, diesel or gas or electric has no bearing on the fuel cost of an A/C in a car. The compressor requires the engine to be running and is thus costing fuel.

 

Any of you TDI owners try this experiment: Get in your car after a fillup and park over in another part of the parking lot. Idle it for ten minutes with the A/C on. Then refill the car and check the fuel usage. Then go park AGAIN and run the car for ten minutes with the A/C OFF. Now fillup again and check the fuel usage.

 

Guaranteed you will see more fuel used in the A/C cycle. Common sense.

 

Here are some quotes I took from various TDI Blogs and etc sites:

 

"Hi, I've never owned a diesel car until now. Of course, mileage is stellar. Best tank is 50.7mpg. Worst is 42mpg (new car with winterize fuel). Lifetime average is 45 mpg (note: most of these miles have been either before the car was broken in, or with the air conditioner on). I expect my numbers will improve this fall when the AC is unnecessary. Take Care: 98 Jetta TDI w/13000mi"

 

"Hi! I also have a 1998 Jetta TDI. It now has 3,200 miles on it. I also am not getting these large gas mileage figures either. Mine has averaged 36.1 to 39.25 mpg. I live in Georgia and run my air conditioner al the time."

 

"To answer the other question, when the AC is off, the fuel mileage is ungodly. My AC reduces my mileage almost 2 mpg."

 

So there is no "magic engine" for avoiding lost MPG when running A/C you silly willies........:)

ruking1

..."So there is no "magic engine" for avoiding lost MPG when running A/C you silly willies........:) "

 

I think the side that you are railing against is saying the same thing!!?? The difference is we are trying to qualify and quantify compare/contrast what that means??

ruking1

..."NOTE: The same math/conclusion also applies to the 50 mpg Jetta TDI."...

 

I would agree, that is why I have a 500,000 to 1,000,000 mile horizon for my 50 mpg VW TDI Jetta.

 

Over 250,000 miles the Honda Civic VP (at 12,500 and 35-39 mpg) waxes a Jetta TDI (at 18,000 and 42-50 mpg and above) !?

Sylvia

Sorry guys - I needed to delete a number of posts due to the personal attacks, name-calling and off-topic nonsense.

misterme

Not sure where you got the 13sec figure but is rated at 11 seconds.

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0302_up_honda/

I've done 0-60 in 10 seconds in mine.

 

Suburban Atlanta sells

Regular gasonline $1.69

Diesel $1.91

 

City of Atlanta is generally higher than that on both types.

 

"You can get a fully loaded Jetta GLS 5-speed TDI for less than $20,000"

 

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/volkswagen/jetta/100477736/option- sresults.html?action=2&tid=edmunds.n.optionsresults.ntmv.1.1.- Volkswagen*

 

Shows a fully loaded Jetta @ $26,663. Now we're talking money.

I bought my CVT HCH for $18,500 which is already fully loaded.

misterme

I keep all my cars for 10 years, which will bring my HCH to about 300K miles. I expect the battery to die before then, in which case I'll either search the junk yards, replace defective cells or just drive it with slightly less performance if needed.

Keeping an old car past 10 years exceeds today's definition of prison torture in my view. I can't imagine the pain of boasting a million miles?

How many people drive the same car or 50 years or more? If you are referring to the reliability of VW diesels then there is likely an issue to be debated.

Just today I saw a 1990's VW Diesel on the freeway and you couldn't even see the tail light behind all the black charred soot.

I remember write ups and claims back then of a new generation of diesels. New technology. Powerful. Very clean.

 

Sound familiar?

Some folks might be wondering about hybrids as they age.

Many are also wondering about diesels as they age.

 

 

My HCH replaced a '94 Dodge Spirit got about 18MPG.

Last year I've averaged about 59MPG in my new car.

Calculating a fuel cost of $1.80/G and 31K miles I've saved almost $5,000 with my new purchase as compared to its replacement in only 12 months.

 

Last year alone I saved about $500 in fuel in comparison over a Civic EX.

 

What would I possibly have gained if I'd chosen a TDI instead? (Other than 3 seconds at full throttle)

Considerably less MPG, probably more expensive to own, pay a premium to keep it fueled and have to remember which stations even sell it.

 

Yes many stations sell diesel fuel but all sell gasoline.

bpeebles

I feel compelled to comment on the following statment:

 

"You've got an engine generating 30 horsepower @2000 rpm in 5th gear, but only need 20 hp to maintain highway speeds. So that leaves 30-20=10hp "spare" power to run the A/C without any impact on fuel economy."

 

I would bet that you did not do well in high-school physics ;-)

 

There is no such thing as "spare" power. When an engine is making more power that is required to maintain speed ... that is called ACCELLERATION! It will continue to accellerate until there is equuilibrium. (Just enough power to maintain static roadspeed)

 

If the A/C is turned on without adjusting the throttle, then the the vehicle will slow down an imperceptible amount.

 

Lets not forget that VWs employ the more-expensive, varible AC compresser. It only loads the engine as much as it needs to maintain the 'coolness setting'.

 

Most other vehicles use a clutch on the AC compresser which cycles ON/OFF. It is either making MAX cool or NONE at all. (and using more engine power than it needs to) I have actually ridden in hondas where I can FEEL the AC clutch kicking in/out at highway speeds. It almost feels as if the engine misfires once in a while.

dieselg4

I'm over it. I live in a city, and get fari mileage. (ave near 40 in town, about 48 on the highway). Unfotunately, diesel cost (right now anyway) as much or more than premium, and on long road trips, I get a little worried when my gas light comes on, as not all stations have diesel fuel. On a trip back from DC, I got a little worried . . . For me, the advantage of the Hybrid is being able to pull into any gas staion. That being said, being a green-minded person, i commute to work by bus and only drive about 6000 mi per year. My next car will prob. be a bit more sporty and conventional.

blueiedgod

I think it boils down to these decision points:

  

If you want the greener of the two, buy the HCH.

  

If you do a lot of 70 MPH hwy cruising or commuting, get the Jetta.

  

If you want a car that will stay out of the shop better and break down less often, get the HCH.

  

If you want to be able to drive it like a regular car and still get close to EPA MPG numbers, get the Jetta.

  

If your commute is short or is mostly City driving, get the HCH.

  

If you think diesel is the greatest thing since sliced bread (and you know who you are out there) then get the Jetta.

  

If you like cool new technology, and like to play the "how high can my MPG get?" game, get the HCH.

  

I think that boils it down to brass tacks. This thread can now be closed.

 

If you want to be completley independant of the dinasaur-based-refined-crude-oil-fuel-source get A DIESEL. Diesel is capable of running on many fuels besides crude-based-one-level-above-heating-oil-and-tar-diesel. There are no Hybrids or non hybrids capable of running on renewable energy. Natural gas, gasoline, and diesel are not renewable, Crisco, methanol, ethanol are renewable, practically solar powered fuel sources. Biodiesel is renewable with lower emissions than regular diesel and probably on par with Hybrid emissions without making certain hostile countries rich.

larsb

quote blueiedgod-"If you want to be completley independant of the dinasaur-based-refined-crude-oil-fuel-source get A DIESEL. Diesel is capable of running on many fuels besides crude-based-one-level-above-heating-oil-and-tar-diesel. There are no Hybrids or non hybrids capable of running on renewable energy. Natural gas, gasoline, and diesel are not renewable, Crisco, methanol, ethanol are renewable, practically solar powered fuel sources. Biodiesel is renewable with lower emissions than regular diesel and probably on par with Hybrid emissions without making certain hostile countries rich."-end quote

 

Sure, a TDI can be converted to use biodiesel and veggy oil. But that is a very tedious thing to worry about keeping your car supplied with, especially if you are trying to use veggy oil.

 

Sure, it's worth it if you are a young, fairly well off person with a lot of free time and a member of Greenpeace, but for the majority of people with jobs and kids and regular lives, worrying about finding biodiesel or used fryer oil is really more than you can mess with.

 

But you'll never be "completley independant of the dinasaur-based-refined-crude-oil-fuel-sources" if you

 

OWN A CAR

 

which requires engine oil for lubricant and plastics (some of which require petroleum in the mfg process) and other oils and lubrication throughout the car.

 

And there will someday be Hybrids/cars which use renewable energy - it might be 15 yrs from now, but it will happen.

gagrice

Sure, a TDI can be converted to use biodiesel and veggy oil. But that is a very tedious thing to worry about keeping your car supplied with, especially if you are trying to use veggy oil.

 

There is No conversion to run B100 in any of the TDI VWs built in the last 5 years. Most major cities offer biodiesel right from a pump like gas. Salt Lake City was reporting biodiesel at $1.90 per gallon after the new incentives were signed into law.

 

There is a downside. For those that live in climates that drop below 20 degrees B100 will gel and cause problems. Those problems can be overcome by mixing with regular #2 diesel or if it is real cold below zero the mix is with #1 diesel. As biodiesel becomes mainstream in the next 5 years those problems will be over come. Much of the world has already mandated the use of biodiesel in some mixture to cut dependency on fossil fuel.

 

Taken from the EPA meeting in August 2004:

 

We want to see transportation solutions that offer the public continued use of the automobile as we have come to expect as Americans, while moving us closer to sustainable goals, and diesels look as though they could be a bigger part of that solution.

 

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/technology/deerpresentation.pdf

gagrice

But you'll never be "completley independant of the dinasaur-based-refined-crude-oil-fuel-sources" if you OWN A CAR which requires engine oil for lubricant and plastics (some of which require petroleum in the mfg process) and other oils and lubrication throughout the car.

 

That may be true, why waste the resource on gas that is NOT needed. Personally I think the HCH is a very good vehicle for saving fossil fuel. I just don't think hybrids overall are that practical. I think they are a fad. Some MAY last others will end up like the EV-1, a very fine, expensive piece of machinery stacked in a junkyard.

larsb

quote gagrice-"... others will end up like the EV-1, a very fine, expensive piece of machinery stacked in a junkyard."-end quote

 

GM "confiscated" all the EV1s they leased - none were ever sold. They are not in junkyards.

 

And sure, Hybrids will end up in junkyards, already are even now. But it's because they are CARS and that's where dead cars go.

 

Reiterate: They are not in junkyards BECAUSE they are Hybrids, but because that's where dead cars go.

gagrice

GM "confiscated" all the EV1s they leased - none were ever sold. They are not in junkyards.

 

They actually belong to you and I. We paid for about half the R&D for the CARB mandated electric vehicle program, about 1.5 billion dollars. And what does this picture look like to you?

 

http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/031219/jpg/after2.htm

larsb

"From an anonymous contributor comes confirmation of GM's scorched-earth EV1 policies. These photos were taken in December 2003 at GM's Desert Proving Grounds in Mesa, AZ. "

 

http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/031219/index.htm

 

So not exactly a "junkyard" in the standard term - not someplace you can go to and look around and scrounge for parts.

 

The land is still GMs. They are "warehousing" them, just "outside" and "stacked"

 

(silly grin)

 

Actually, that was a stupid move by GM. One of their "owner letters" said they would support the EV1 with parts and service through 2005 - we know THAT did not happen. Why did they not just let the cars live their lives out normally like any other car?

gagrice

And sure, Hybrids will end up in junk yards, already are even now. But it's because they are CARS and that's where dead cars go.

 

I believe the hybrids as a whole, if they continue to build them. Will have a premature "end of life" due to the high cost to keep them running, just as the EV-1. They have extra sensors, batteries, electronics that a conventional car does not have. When faced with replacement of those parts in 10 years people will dump them and buy new. I think the hybrid will accelerate the throwaway car concept. If in 10 years you have 100k-150k miles on the car it is no big deal. If you are like myself and others that do not drive our lives away you will only have 50k-60k miles on the car when stuff starts to go bad from old age.

Sylvia

Should we pull up a lawn chairs to watch this parade go by?

 

I think we have beaten this line of questioning to death. Let's move on.

 

Many thanks!

gagrice

Why did they not just let the cars live their lives out normally like any other car?

 

That is a darn good question. Many leasees would have taken on the maintenance of those cars. They fit the needs of a small but dedicated group of people. They were about as clean as cars get. It is a shame...

electrictroy

I sense bias.

 

I posted an ON-TOPIC post showing how it would take 400,000 miles to make up the $2000 difference between a "Jetta with equal luxuries" and a Civic Hybrid's standard equipment...

 

...and it got deleted. What the heck?

electrictroy

Diesel is more expensive in winter because Diesel is also used to heat homes. Diesel will be dirt-cheap in the summer.

 

Also, consider that diesel has about 30% more energy. Every gallon of diesel you buy is equal to 1.3 gallons of gasoline, so you're getting more bang for your buck.

 

troy

gagrice

Every gallon of diesel you buy is equal to 1.3 gallons of gasoline, so you're getting more bang for your buck.

 

An even bigger bang for your buck is the Jetta TDI can convert back and forth with a completely renewable resource biodiesel. Try that with an HCH or any other current hybrid.

larsb

gagrice speaking out of both sides of his mouth?:

 

Quote 1: "An even bigger bang for your buck is the Jetta TDI can convert back and forth with a completely renewable resource biodiesel."

 

Quote 2: "There is No conversion to run B100 in any of the TDI VWs built in the last 5 years. Most major cities offer biodiesel right from a pump like gas. Salt Lake City was reporting biodiesel at $1.90 per gallon after the new incentives were signed into law.

  

There is a downside. For those that live in climates that drop below 20 degrees B100 will gel and cause problems. Those problems can be overcome by mixing with regular #2 diesel or if it is real cold below zero the mix is with #1 diesel. As biodiesel becomes mainstream in the next 5 years those problems will be over come. Much of the world has already mandated the use of biodiesel in some mixture to cut dependency on fossil fuel."

 

So which is it? Can the TDI use biodeisel or not? And can people in cold weather use it?

ruking1

I think that you are constructing artifically adversarial and unnecessary situations. 1. all of the above 2 yes 3 yes, most winter type places sell "winterized fuel?

 

The fact is the Jetta TDI can convert back and forth: 1. petro 2. biodiesel 3. mixed

   

So can you process unleaded regular? i.e. home brew?

 

Can you grow unleaded regular from DOMESTIC farm crops? This is another example of what I mean the issues being ignored. If you do not want to be dependent on FOREIGN PRODUCT, guess what by your intellectual construct you have to use a DOMESTIC PRODUCT!!??? So how you can say in the same breath and a straight face that use of a gasser hybrid does not use foreign product is disingenuous (to be PC!!

 

I also think it is an eventual NO BRAINER for the diesel to be mated to a hybrid. It is even more suitable than the gasser for this use!!! The reason why it has not yet appeared was due to the cues sent by EPA officials concerning the 1.5 Billion dollar R & D by the Government and BIG THREE automakers which the EPA nix, and whose reference was somehow nixed on this board for unknown reasons!? Even the EPA, who formerly tried to pooh pooh diesel, makes reference to the fact that diesel is another "arrow in the quiver", so to speak.

gagrice

So which is it? Can the TDI use biodeisel or not? And can people in cold weather use it?

 

I think you already know the answer. It can be used as B100 in the warmer months and mixed down in the colder months same as diesel and gas is. I don't know about AZ. In CA we get different gas mixtures for different times of the year. It is already done for us because of the volume. Where I work 95% of the vehicles are diesel. They start mixing in the kerosene as soon as the temp drops in the fall. The colder it gets the more kerosene (#1 diesel). Same would hold true for biodiesel. It is a cleaner form of fuel. It is very compatible in all diesel engines. Look for biodiesel to be mandated in the next 5 years the same as ethanol is in gas.

larsb

If diesel hybrids can be affordably built as sedans in the US and be clean enough, I'm not opposed to them in configurations that will provide high MPG cars.

 

Imaginary Diesel Hybrid Sedan for the USA:

 

For example, if we could get a diesel hybrid 4-dr sedan with around 120 HP and MPG rates in the 60-70 MPG range, and keep that car under $25,000 and make it a PZEV, then I'm all for it.

 

QUIZ: Who can guess WHICH part of my "imaginary diesel hybrid sedan for the USA" is NOT likely to happen?

ruking1

Given the items in your post, I really do not think you have been keeping up with the Honda car company which you seem to keep on a pedestal? Honda Accord already has a gas hybrid product unveiling that is absolutely exciting. Honda also has a "Accord" diesel product available in Europe.

 

Again your QUIZ is an unnecessary adversarial and artificial commentary.

larsb

"The Spirit of Debate" is what it's called. I'm not attacking anyone, just asking questions.

 

People have accused me of dodging issues, so I am now repsonding to them and explaining from my questions how what they want or expect is not viable, AT THIS TIME. All things change, however.

 

If someone can produce the car I mentioned above, it would sell like hotcakes in the USA. Problem is that economics prevent it from happening.

 

What we have are Gasoline Hybrids and diesels. Right now, USA diesels are dirtier and less efficient than Gas Hybrids - that's a fact.

 

Car companies are in business to make money. If they COULD bring the super clean diesels for sale in Europe to the USA and make money on them, they WOULD.

 

But for WHATEVER reasons (politics, marketing, diesel image, EPA problems) they cannot yet do so.

 

That's not to say they WONT in the future, but they CANNOT today.

 

So if you want the CLEANEST, most FUEL EFFICIENT cars on the road in the USA today, get a gas Hybrid. Or convert an older diesel to run on veggy oil and emit french fry smells and get less MPG than a gas hybrid.

electrictroy

B100 can be run in all TDIs without modification.

 

However, only Volkswagen-Germany is open-minded enough to allow it (and encourage it).

 

Volkswagen-America will void your warranty. (But then, they'll also void your warranty if you run the wrong oil! VWA is anal-retentive about voiding warranties & not repairing cars for free.)

 

troy

 

P.S. Don't waste your time trying to convince Lars that diesel is good. Lars is a nice guy, but his mindly is firmly set against diesel. Even the new SULEV/PZEV diesel from Ford, he considers "dirty" despite the fact it's just as clean as a Civic Hybrid. So there's no point wasting your time or precious board space trying to convince him.

 

Just drop it.

sebring95

We also have no true definition of fuel quality for biodiesel, so it's hard for VWOA to stand behind it. Euro biodiesel has standards which will ensure no fueling problems when used in a TDI. One could do the same here if you only bought from reputable high-quality producers. However, VWOA isn't going to stick there neck out and say it's ok because then joe dumb-dumb will buy whatever fuel he can find regardless of quality.

 

Diesel powered vehicles COULD be tremendously better than they are, but then that means the antiquated regulations will need to be changed to allow the fuels to be of equal technology. In the mean time, the hybrids can have better luck because plain old gasoline has been regulated much better. Would a Civic hybrid be worth a pile of beans if leaded fuel was the standard?

electrictroy

Ha! Leaded fuel in a Civic Hybrid? That would immediately kill the catalyst & plummet it from a SULEV to an extremely dirty vehicle & it would stop passing emissions tests.

 

But I see your point. Diesels are only as good as the dirty fuel they run on. They will vastly improve when "clean sulfur-free diesel" is introduced in 2006.

 

troy