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Comments
Phill: $3400
Gas Sensor: $120 (mandatory for indoor use)
Shipping: $150
Installation: $700-$1500
It is mandatory to have it installed by a Fuelmaker authorized technician...so no DIY jobs.
So the cost is roughly $4,700 give or take a few hundo. If gasoline is $3/gal and it costs $1 for CNG via home...you will save $2 a gallon. Thus you will need to pump about 2,300 gallons to break even. Which is the equivalent of driving 69,000 miles (If you get 3mpg). Thats a lot of freakin miles. As a result the Civic seems like the better choice than a 4 year old Contour or Cavalier. However, a lower mileage civic will cost well over $10k.
So now Im starting to rethink this whole CNG thing if I cannot get a home fueler used. With the small tank size, the Contour needs a home filling unit or I would be driving out of my way every day for a CNG fueling station. The civic plus the cost of a fueling station is a good sum of money. From purely a financial standpoint, it's too much money and I am better off sticking with gas unless it's going to hit $5 and CNG stays at $1. By the time I were to drive any CNG car 70,000 miles...i would be pretty worried about the cars value and future maintance issues.
1. If purchasing a home fueler, there are tax credits that can be applied to reduce the final cost. Check the available state and federal sources.
2. The fueling unit would be used on more than one's present vehicle - it would be there for future ones, so why calculate the whole cost into the present vehicle?
Also, there would be good resale value should one decide to sell it at a later time.
Likewise, when one buys a new vehicle, it is assumed there will be later resale value when selling it.
3. How about the home fueling convenience factor - is that not worth something?
4. The rest of us not in Calif would be glad to buy anyone's used unit from there. There seems to be a little restraint of trade going on in that they cannot be purchased new outside of Calif...not to mention that Honda will not sell the GX publicly in the remaining 49 states.
Also, how does the CNG/gasoline price conversion work as well? I'd like to get an idea of what I would pay w/ a home pump. I was guessing around $1 to $1.25.
Anyone know or have links about the new Energy bill and it's affect on CNG? I read that you can get a $1000 tax writeoff...Jan 1. Just want to know when that takes into effect though.
More than 4.6 million CNG vehicles are operating worldwide.
6 countries have 100,000 + vehicles while Argentina has 1.4 million.
This segment is growing faster.
If Phill refuelling device suceeds, it will give a bigger boost.
# 1.There are no refilling stations
#2. FUELMAKER has No plans to sell PHILL anywhere in Florida
So,,, I was wondering, "What is so hard about building a CNG compressor
and/or Maybe there is sombody else (China) that makes a unit that is comprable to the PHILL aat a lot less $$$$$$ ???????
Any thoughts????? With all this collective brain power SOMBODY here should be able to come up with an answer.....!!!!!!!!!!!
I have 2 cng cars (ford contour) - if fuelmaker was smart, the best time to go national is during national crisis (read +$3.00 per gallon for gasoline). People are begging for alternatives.
When I contacted them 2 years ago, they said Phill would cost around $1000 per unit. I've been in touch with them on /off over years; Phill was delayed (it was supposed to come out Aug 2003), then this past summer they announced the unit was going to cost $4k + installation.
Seems to be an aweful high markup over the original $1000 they told me a while back.
I've since given up on cng option - guess the best bet now is hybrid gas/electric.
:mad:
http://www.gasfill.com or send an e-mail to nleece@gasfill.com
It is often said, in error, that there is no real alternative to the internal combustion engine and petroleum based fuels. Well, take a look at the latest edition of NGV News from the UK Natural Gas Vehicle Association:
http://www.ngva.co.uk/index/fuseaction/site.articleDetail/con_id/5193
The world has loads of natural gas that is no longer stranded due to the world's massive increase of LNG trade and its still being made (bio-gas is a significant and largely untapped resource), this can be used in a very efficient way to provide road transport.
In the latest dual fuel diesel engines - with 90% natural gas, 10% diesel - there is around a 20% reduction in GHG emissions compared to diesel.
With oil at $65/bbl, Middle East countries are joining Germany and France and India and Brazil etc in introducing CNG programmes. For example, makes sense for Iran to export as much oil as possible and burn natural gas for vehicles. As a by product, this will dramaticaly reduce air poluution, as has happened in Delhi (see NGV News page 11)
Take a CNG internal combustion engine and add hybrid technology and we are sorted. Thank goodness it is being developed.
http://www.ngvglobal.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=291&Itemid=2&lang=en
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and there is a $2000 rebate from SCAQMD.
The CNG costs about $1/gge. I have the Phill on a seperate electrical meter and the electricity was around $5 last month.
thanks, pk
Orange County - Riverside County - San Bernardino County. If you're in another county there's a different regional board.
After the tax incentive and rebate, the unit costs less than $1000.
Does anyone else often have this kind of problem before?
Is there any agency we can complain about this?
is there any safety mechanism to shut it off after an earthquake?
but now I am going to save even more.
If you have searched FuelMaker on the Web and talked to them, you should know that the Phill is not their only game in town. They market several other units for home use that CAN be bought by us low lifes in the other 49 states. I am in process of installing a used FMQ-2 unit, with tech set up from a FuelMaker rep. Rough cost will be around $3500 which includes the unit, gas and electrical permit/inspection fees, 220 volt wiring I am doing, gas piping, installation & setup, etc. I eventually plan to sell one Contour and buy a Civic GX. I have had it with the gasoline situation, and want to help clean up the air at the same time. The 15% natural gas price increase coming is not going sway me away.
Sounds like you have a surplus Contour or two. How do you find these cars?
Will you be selling one or both?
Cheers!
Michael
I´m a german student and I´m searching some informations about the number of CNG-Vehicles by Model in the United States.
Can anybody help me and send me a link where I get these informations!?
Great thanks and regards from Berlin,Germany
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm
Will we see the day when natural gas costs more than regular unleaded? As it is now, I can by Arco unleaded for only 24 cents more. Given the 10% less performance you receive out of natural gas vs. unleaded, that means the price is basically the same right?
Will there be any market for these cars if CNG prices stay like this?
Not sure where these would appear on the web as such for research info.
Perhaps FORD Motor Co could tell you how many were manufactured.
It is really difficult to find some infos about the number of sales by model.
In Germany you can find these informations on one site. (www.kba.de) Thats the departement for vehicle registration. Here you can look for every Model and the sales per Month/Year.
Is there a similar site for the US market?
What are your experience with the HRA Phil from Fuelmaker? It is easy to use and much cheaper as refueling at the station?
Regards to all!
take a look at the cng civic forum. there is information about the Phill on it.
CNG at long beach $2.15
So. Cal. Pico $2.54
2. Also, have your gas service checked for adequate meter capacity before installing a new or old unit - I now have to choose between heating my house with the furnace or fueling my cars. Not both - The furnace AND FMQ-2 use more than the meter can provide. Now looking into a higher capacity meter, regulators, more piping, etc. per survey from the gas company. I learned the hard way...
You will want an inlet dryer. You can get a desicant dryer from a local compressor shop. The dessacant can be dried in the oven by heating it in the oven for an hour 250 Deg. if you tell me how far the run is from your meter to the Fuelmaker I can tell you what size of pipe you will need.
A couple of months ago I was on the phone with fuel maker, they told me they are still suporting the C3 which was thier bata unit. they also still suported the FMQ-2 and FMQ-4 which they still produce as a small comercial unit.
As for a dryer gas has moisuter in it. It is messuerd in pounds per million cubic feet. as I remember for cng the standard is 2 lbs. @ 3600 Psi. ( i am out of town so I can't double check these figures.) Chances are pipeline is any where up to 20 lbs. These levels can relay play havoc on both your vehical and your compressor and can DAMAGE BOTH. On the inlet side of the compressor you should have a dryer. These units are filled with a molecular sive (I know this is spelled wrong) that leach the moisture out of the gas stream. there are 1" models that are used in paint shops and pneumatic controls that will work for your purpose readily avalible. some even have moisture indicators on them. Using a medium that changes color when the sive has reached saturation.
One of the nice things about the Fuelmaker is that it is an oil free compressor. You do not have to worry about oil carry over or coalescing. Ford use to require 2 ppm. of oil in the gas to lubricate the solinoide and injector s. If you have been fueling at public stations you have enough oil sloshing around in your cylinders to meet this reqiuerment.
As many of you have commented the price of CNG has gone through the roof, comparatively speaking, one day it was $1.50 the next it was $2.50 - in August it was $1.54 in Long Beach, today November 14 it is $2.54 at the Gas Co. in Garden Grove. For the first time ever it is cheaper to fuel at Pickens/ENRG $2.44 is Seal Beach, although Long Beach is still the best at $2.15.
The PUC approved a rate increase to 'cover' the cost of compression. I don't know what role ENRG played, but the increase was asked for by So. Cal Gas, they wanted to be 'more in line with gasoline prices' - no other justification.
For those of us that bought CNG cars and were lured by the seductive ads run by So. Cal Gas, this is a huge betrayal. It's abundant, they said; cheap, they said; home grown, they said. They lured us in with the promise of a cheap, sustainable fuel, then they ****ed us.
Gasoline has a huge infrastructure; you can fuel up on any street corner. CNG has a minimal infrastructure, if they wanted to be 'more in line with gasoline' open more stations.
I love my car, and I still believe in the environmental benefits. But because of So. Cal Gas's duplicity I have a car that is potentially hard to sell, has limited range, and can be hard to find fuel for, and now costs as much if not more than a comprable gasoline vehicle.
I spoke with Fuelmaker this morning, I was told that because I live in the SCAQMD region the cost would be about $1,500 including shipping and installation, I have my doubts, but further research will tell. Anyone know how much installation costs on Phill, anyone in the Long Beach/Orange County area that has installed one? They told me that the SCAQMD rebate is applied at purchase, so no forms to fill out and no waiting for a rebate check.
To those of you worried about availability and having to fill up frequently - I drive anywhere from 500 to 1000 miles per week, I have a 2002 Crown Vic., 3600 psi with extended range tanks. I rarely have a problem, a little thought and planning is all that is needed. Don't let range or frequent refueling put you off.
Before I forget, Fuelmaker told me it would cost roughly $1.45 gge with Phill, can anyone verify or give me a better estimate? Is Phill noisy? Any first hand experience and anecdotes are welcome.
Lastly for those of us in L.A., we all know about the benefits of the HOV lane, but you should also be aware that meter parking is free in Los Angeles if you have your 'access ok' stickers.
Yes, in three years I've had to explain it to two CHP guys but saving 5 or 6 bucks a day is great. Apart from whizzing past stalled traffic, what I like best is those freeway on ramps with a diamond lane. Nothing like starting out your commute by entering the freeway at speed after zipping past a dozen or more cars slowly advancing toward the light that lets them on one at a time.
I was just wondering if any other vehicles / suppliers use such a particular device. I know from speaking with scania that they are in development and currently use the camshalft to operate the plunger on their injectors!
So basically im thinking of attempting to use some sort of electro-mechanical system to hopefully pulse the system and therefore release the high pressure gas (~10MPa) directly into the cylinder. Also because of the non-lubricating properties of CNG will i require special parts to reduce friction wear (on the armature etc)...
any suggestions / advice greatly appreciated
Regards
Wooly
No lubrication of valve system except for drive gear at front of engine. Having no actual valve partially obstructing the flow (like when a traditional valve is "open") lets even a regular gasoline engine use 15:1 compression ratio. Great for volumetric efficiency and I'd love to know how high the ratio could be with the higher octane of CNG.
Brazil has more than 1 million vehicles powered by CNG.
AQMD Diamond Bar $2.27
As for the higher cost of natural gas. Natural gas always climes in the winter. This year is the highest in history. I've herd every thing from damage from hurricane Katrina to record cold winter predicted. it boils down to a unregulated traded camodity.
I could use your support on something. It seems that you and I have the same understanding of the 91 "3+" lane usage. However, there are some nay sayers in the Hoda Civic CNG forum - a phone call to the OCTA and to the 91 Express lanes hasn't produced any reasonable answers.
Do you have any information that can back up our understanding of the policy? Do you think that the policy may have changed?
Thanks.
Fuelmaker can be rebuilt for, say, 500$ every 2500 or 4000 hours, I forget which. This has a fighting chance of catching up to the costs after, still 5-8 years at 1000 gallons a year. I got this from Steve Anthony of SCG last week.
Thank you for your email and concern about Phill’s life cycle.
I’m not sure where the gentleman at SoCal got his information, but Phill is designed as a maintenance free appliance with a manufacturer’s warranty of one year unlimited hours. Under typical usage with a vehicle traveling 12,000 miles per year at 30 miles per gallon, Phill should operate for over six years (6000 hours of operation). After that the unit will typically lose its ability to deliver full pressure. Servicing can be done by FuelMaker and the unit can then continue to be used.
If you have any more questions, please don’t hesitate to contact me