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Comments
Do you know does this premium license renewal sur-charge ONLY apply to CNG only vehicles, or also to Bi-Fuel ones that run on CNG or GAS?
Also, how much is this fee?
Does WA offer an initial tax credit on the purchase of a CNG vehicle? Maybe that's part of the equation or mad reasoning...
Would you prefer that the state not maintain the roads? They fund road maintenance from gasoline taxes. Since you don't use gas, they need to get your share of the road maintanence taxes directly. So they put the amount on the license renewal.
Regardless of anyones intentions or preferences, the roads must be maintained. They are not trying to encourage or discourage alternate fuel useage; they are trying to maintain the transportation infrastructure that your vehicle uses whenever you drive it. Until the entire system of gathering money to maintain the roads is overhauled, I can't see any other way to keep the road system maintained.
Some states are also thinking of taxing high MPG cars (mostly hybrids) extra to make up for the money being lost because those cars don't use as much fuel. Same principle.
I think that eventually all vehicles will be taxed with the registration, such as is now done in europe. It would be quite fair if everyone was taxed the same way. In Germany they tax based on engine size, which encourages small, economical engines. They also have HUGE gasoline taxes, which is why fuel is so expensive over there.
And it costs a hefty 25,000 K with a range of 200 miles on full tank.
If Honda can make this car a Bi-Fueled with 10 miles on CNG and another 300 miles on Gasolene,
people can use CNG during the 1st 10 miles of their daily commute and weekend shopping.
At 10 miles / day and even if they drive for 300 days / year, it comes to 3,000 miles in CNG
which is roughly 20-25 % of the mileage driven.
If a CNG tank for 200 miles costs $ 5,000 then the smaller tank with 10 mile range may cost
only around $ 500 and that may put this car at an affordable $ 21,000 and also allowing anyone
to buy it an travel farther without worrying about CNG station. The extra $ 3,000 which is paid
towards this vehicle (compared to $ 18,000 for regular Civic DX) can be obtained during the
vehicle's lifetime.
This could popularise CNG vehicles a lot along with Honda. Afterall, there are 5 million +
CNG powered vehicles in the World and its the next alternative fuel after Ethanol.
http://www.iangv.org/content/view/17/35/
10 miles? are you serious?
Most people in the Southern California area are lucky they dont have to go more than a few miles out of their way to get fuel, but that means then you are left with maybe 5 miles of fuel, what is the point?
Also a Civic GX will not run on pump gas, even if you converted it, you would have to run race fuel or Avgas, the compression ratio is 12.5 to 1.
I agree the cars have a hefty price tag, but you can get smokin deals on a used one.
If you want a bi-fuel car buy one, I dont want these cars to be popular just so they can spew out hydrocarbons.
Or do like I do and own 2 cars, one for traveling and recreation, and a NGV for commuting.
1st on the priority list would be to approach CE, PG&E, or Trillium and get better pricing for our members. Hopefully even better pricing for exclusivity rights were a deal would not be signed with any other stations.
As other issues such as Fire Autority fees arise and other problems ... well some said it best... POWER TO THE PEOPLE.
Murphy
(I can not disclose the company I am with or this posting would get removed)
Here would be some other angles to pursue with this:
1. If the word about CNG vehicles can get out to more people as using the lowest cost & cleanest fuel, more would look at us and potentially come on board.
2. We need to get auto makers other than Honda to build CNG vehicles again (as they used to for the US market in late 1980's - 2004, and still do today in other countries don't forget) and ADVERTISE them, etc. Big oil would have a heart attack!
3. Home fueling is one path to least cost. If we could get FuelMaker to run a reduced price special for the higher capacity unit like the FMQ-2-36 packaged with the Honda GX, there might be more interest, sales, and CNG cars on the roads. Then CE, PG&E, Trillium & others might decide to drop their prices to get business...show them if it's cheaper to fuel at home, then they better be more competitively priced or their sales will diminish.
On a good day with the wind behind me and a good fill I can get about 320 miles - but it has to be all freeway and without any crazy driving.
I regularly drive from Long Beach to San Diego back to Long Beach, a 250 mile round trip, without re fuelling.
I wouldn't want to count on the 320 miles and would say that a more realistic range with all freeway miles, assuming a good fill, is 275 to 300
I have noticed that I get a much better fill at most the stations other than my regular one near my home (Hemet RTA). One day in Diamond bar the Pinnacle CNG systems guys were there doing maintenence and my fill pressure went up to 4,000 psi. They said that was normal because it compensates for temperature and other factors.
Also I have noticed that I get a better fill if my tank has more fuel in it before I fill.
With the OK fills I have gone 178 miles, 12 of them with the fuel light on. I expect I could go another 30 or more with a better fill.
For my 143 mile commute it works out fine, but to be safe I alway fill up when I stay in OC for one night, usually adds an extra 40 miles on top of my commute.
I live about two miles from a So Cal Gas base and I habitually stop by there every day just because I can. I used to use Long Beach but now that it is run by the evil empire I won't go there unless desperate.
Your idea about getting better fills if you top off is sound - I am not a science guy but I understand the basic principle is that fast fueling causes the gas to heat and expand - therefore the more you pump into your tanks the more volume you "lose" due to the expansion. I typically find that if the pump is in good order and I haven't used much fuel I can cram in more gas than I have used since the previous fill - if you can make sense of that. I also love to fill up on cold, wet nights - the lower ambient temperature allows for a better fill, which translates to better range.
If you really want a Crown Vic I would say go for it - even though Ford no longer makes the CNG as an option there is still a company that converts them from brand new - and they qualify under CARB for car pool access, to read more see the posting on the evil empire's website:
http://www.cleanenergyfuels.com/articles/03-09-06.html
In the event that the link is not allowed go to CE's website and look under news releases for the article about BAF.
I live about two miles from a So Cal Gas base and I habitually stop by there every day just because I can. I used to use Long Beach but now that it is run by the evil empire I won't go there unless desperate.
Your idea about getting better fills if you top off is sound - I am not a science guy but I understand the basic principle is that fast fueling causes the gas to heat and expand - therefore the more you pump into your tanks the more volume you "lose" due to the expansion. I typically find that if the pump is in good order and I haven't used much fuel I can cram in more gas than I have used since the previous fill - if you can make sense of that. I also love to fill up on cold, wet nights - the lower ambient temperature allows for a better fill, which translates to better range.
If you really want a Crown Vic I would say go for it - even though Ford no longer makes the CNG as an option there is still a company that converts them from brand new - and they qualify under CARB for car pool access, to read more see the posting on the evil empire's website:
http://www.cleanenergyfuels.com/articles/03-09-06.html
In the event that the link is not allowed go to CE's website and look under news releases for the article about BAF.
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Count me in for a NG vehicle owners association.
One thing that I'd like to see right away is list of all CNG stations and their current prices. This could be posted on the web in a spread sheet showing the station location, price, and date of last update. As NGV owners visit stations and notice a change in price they could e-mail the new price to whomever is hosting the spread sheet.
I think we all agree that it's frustrating to go to a station only to find their price higher than what we could have paid at another station. This frustration can be further compounded if we don't have the fuel or time to then go to the less-expensive station.
I currently don't have the time or resources to host such a spread sheet. Is this something you could do? Or, is there anyone else who would like to volunteer?
I anticipate that there will be a representative from American Honda and a representative from Fuelmaker at the meeting. If we really believe in "Power to the People", this would be a good time for us to participate in the public process and express our desire for the Board of Directors to waive this disincentive to CNG vehicles. Each member of the public is allowed three minutes to speak to the Board of Directors. This public input will be taken just prior to the Board discussing it as an agenda item. In order to participate in the public input, you must fill out a form at the meeting indicating your desire to address the Board on this issue. I hope that some of you will be able to attend the meeting.
It's easy for us to express our gripes with each other, but it's more effective if we air our concern in a respectful way in front of those who can actually do something about it.
The no-start eventually deteriorated to never start on CNG, hot or cold. So took it to the FORD dealer here in Portland that has a certified CNG tech on staff - they determined the infamous COMPUVALVE was defective. Here is the part you won't believe: Ford replaced it under an 8 year/80,000 mile (Federal EPA emissions) warranty that covers that device!! NO CHARGE. My car has almost 65,000 miles on it. Now it runs fine again on clean 'n cheap CNG.
I suggest you take your car to a FORD dealer who can service CNG for checking and leave it overnight so they see it does not start cold. Likely they will find the compuvalve failing. (A FORD Tech Bulletin I got thru Helm, Inc., points directly to that symptom and cause).
So the guy who spent $980 for a rebuilt one (bank1avp) might want to go back and have a little discussion with the dealer, assuming his car was less than 80K miles...
If I can find a GM dealer with a CNG tech for the Bi-Fuel Cavalier, I may try for a 2003 at upcoming GSA auctions. My only dislike is the lack of safety/convenience options on those Cavaliers: PW, PDL, PM.
Fuelmaker didn't have a representative available, so they made arrangements for the representative from American Honda to speak on behalf of both American Honda and Fuelmaker. In addition to the representative from American Honda and myself, Brian from Irvine spoke to Board of Directors.
I spoke about the benefits of CNG cars and the home refueling appliance and I mentioned that as a public agency, the OCFA should be encouraging their use rather than charging a fee of $615.00, which is a substantial disincentive. I urged the Board of Directors to waive the plan check and inspection fee for the installation of a home refueling appliance, and also to consider refunding the fee to the three residents who have already paid it.
The representative from American Honda spoke about the safety of CNG vehicles and the need to encourage cleaner air transportation. She mentioned some of the safety features of the Phill appliance and that the manufacturer requires that a certified installer must be used. Also, she made an offer to the Orange County Fire Authority. Honda has on staff a technician who is thoroughly familiar with Phill and its proper installation. This technician trains municipalities and others about refueling devices. If the OCFA would authorize it, Honda would make this technician available to do the inspection of Phill installations within the area served by the OCFA. This technician would do the inspection instead of an OCFA inspector, the Honda technician would file the necessary documentation, Honda would pay his salary, and there would be no cost to the OCFA or the consumer.
Brian from Irvine spoke of his personal experiences with CNG vehicles. He lived in Canada in the late 1980s, drove a CNG vehicle, and refueled it at home with a refueling device made by Fuelmaker (not a Phill, but a different Fuelmaker product). He talked about the convenience and reliability of CNG and that it is not really new technology. Brian currently drives a CNG vehicle, but is satisfied using public stations, and is not interested in purchasing a Phill. Brian told the Board of Directors that installing a Phill is no more complicated that installing a water heater, and that in some ways a Phill is safer than a water heater, because a Phill has a methane detector, and a water heater doesn't. Thank you, Brian for taking the time to come to the meeting and for speaking to the Board of Directors.
A Deputy Fire Marshall had prepared a staff report on the issue of home refueling appliances for the Board of Directors. The staff report mentioned that the OCFA is currently in the process of a Fee Review, and that this is one of the fees being looked at for possible adjustment. The staff report mentioned that recently the fee has been $615.00, and that after the Fee Review is completed, the fee is expected to be between $400.00 and $450.00 dollars. The Fee Review should be complete in March or April, 2007. The staff report recommended that the Board of Directors authorize the staff to charge a flat rate of $145.00 per hour for time and materials until a new fee for this service is approved.
The Orange County Fire Authority is funded differently than many fire agencies. The cities that OCFA services pay for fire protection, but there is no budget for inspections. Thus when the OCFA does an inspection, they directly charge the one who is receiving the inspection. Many cities that have their own fire departments cover these costs within the city budget.
There was quite a bit of discussion amongst the Board of Directors. One Director said that as a public agency, the fee should be waived as a way to encourage use of CNG vehicles. Another Director said that he was not aware of any OCFA fee being waived in the past, and that he was uncomfortable with starting that now. One Director thought that a city building inspector should do this type of inspection and that it was unfair to the public to charge another inspection fee in addition the normal building inspection fee. The Deputy Fire Marshall felt strongly that the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) code directs fire agencies to take responsibility with inspecting this type of installation. There was some interest in the idea of the Honda technician performing the inspections, and there was some talk that the OCFA should do this themselves. Someone mentioned that it might be a good idea to have the installer certify that the installation is done correctly, and someone suggested that if American Honda is willing to send their own technician, that perhaps American Honda would be willing to subsidize OCFA's plan and inspection fee. There seemed to be a strong consensus that $615.00 was too high of a fee.
It is interesting to note that the OCFA's legal counsel had not apparently even looked at this issue. He was completely silent until spoken to directly by one of the Directors.
The Board of Directors voted to direct staff to investigate the possibility of using the Honda technician, direct staff to charge the time and material rate of $145.00 per hour for now, and to hold the item over until the next Board Meeting. One of the Directors also asked the legal counsel to check to see if it is even legal for the OCFA to delegate this inspection responsibility (i.e., can they legally let the Honda technician do the inspections?). The legal counsel responded by saying that he would definitely check into this issue.
I called and talked to the Deputy Fire Marshall this week. He told me that, based on the action of the Board of Directors, the current plan and inspection fee will be three hours at $145.00 per hour, for a total of $435.00. He also said that he has a meeting scheduled to talk with the American Honda representative next week.
I am interested to see what the legal counsel has determined. Also, with all due respect to the staff at OCFA, I would like to know if he interprets the fire agency's responsibility to perform the inspection the same way as the Deputy Fire Marshall does.
So far, I have been unable to find a copy of the 2006 NFPA 52 code, which deals with vehicle refueling. It is not a public document, so it is not online. I can pay $35.00 and buy one, but I'd just like to look at the few pages that deal directly with our specific issues. The public libraries don't seem to carry this item. Perhaps Fuelmaker or Honda could assist me with this.
I must say that everyone on the staff of the OCFA with whom I have dealt has treated me in a very professional manner. They are all courteous and helpful. When I have a concern, I am directed to the right person, and my questions and messages receive a quick and clear response. I cannot say enough good things about my interactions with the st
I must say that everyone on the staff of the OCFA with whom I have dealt has treated me in a very professional manner. They are all courteous and helpful. When I have a concern, I am directed to the right person, and my questions and messages receive a quick and clear response. I cannot say enough good things about my interactions with the staff.
The Orange County Fire Authority Board of Directors will take up this matter again at their next meeting, which is scheduled for 6:30 P.M. on Thursday, January 25, 2007 in Irvine.
Still, I would not advise attempting to service these CNG components on your own. It should be a certified tech - especially if something may still be under warranty. They can tell you what parts are still covered.
BTW, filling with NG here in UT is $.74 :P WOO HOO :shades:
BTW, filling with NG here in UT is $.74 :P WOO HOO :shades:
I have one in fine condition to sell and do not want to let it go "public" to someone looking for a gasoline only car. (I plan to replace it with a Honda Civic GX).
Located in Oregon, and do not wish to sell it thru a dealer.
Since we are not to advertise here, need some leads.
It appears very shortsighted for AZ to dump CNG vehicles from HOV lanes when dedicated CNG is much cleaner than any hybrids on the road today. Good luck in AZ.
Murphy
I bet it would cost more than your Ford Contour is worth to get the tank and all the high pressure components changed out and certified to 3600.
Here in CA, bi-fuel cars are not allowed in the HOV lanes.
Later as the no start deteriorated, it would only start on CNG after the engine was well warmed up on gasoline.
However, eventually it became never start, and the only option was to replace the COMPUVALVE. If you can find a CNG tech equipped dealer they might be able to do a diagnosis and estimate the fix cost, but likely it would cost you a couple of hours labor to tell you that.
At least you can sell it as a plain old gasoline car, if you choose not to do a CNG fix or just keep it.
I have a Contour at 68,000 Miles for sale with a fairly new compuvalve ...runs great.
Murphy...they aren't issued "stickers", but they get the blue AF plates, just like our dedicated Hondas or any other dedicated vehicle.
adea
adea
Murphy
On the news, A Suppershuttle driver was killed at the station from a van cng fuel tank explosion during fueling. ( tank ruptured ,no fire). The shuttle van was rear ended a few weeks ago and just got back from the body shop according to the story.
Might be a good idea to have a good inspection of the tank and fuel system by someone other than a body shop after an accident.
Photo of the damaged van at www.cbs2.com .
adea
adea
check the CSA Website for certified tank inspectors
CNG Cylinders require recertification anytime the vehicle has been in a collision AND Every 36 Months.
I suspect this detail was overlooked before the van was given back to the customer. But we have not heard for sure. :confuse:
"THIS VEHICLE POWERED BY CLEAN BURNING NATURAL GAS"
or "NATURAL GAS POWERED VEHICLE" or similar...
You may have seen something like it on buses or trucks running on CNG. Somebody makes & sells them somewhere - any clues? [Not looking for the blue CNG diamond - already have that]. Thanks.
adea