Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

bumpy

I think it only has the 3.5 V-6 (they have it listed as a 3.7)

Could be the 2.7L V6, which might explain why the cops dumped it so soon.

steine13

For what it's worth, the 2.7 is a really lousy engine, lots of 'em at the auctions with blown engines. Dunno about the 3.5 but I *think* it's OK. -Mathias

guss

Would they even put something as small as the 2.7L in a police car ?

I thought the Charger with the V-8 would be a hit with most Police departments, but I don't see many around here. I guess the cops got used to driving Explorers and Expeditions like everyone else.

andre1969

I thought the Charger with the V-8 would be a hit with most Police departments, but I don't see many around here. I guess the cops got used to driving Explorers and Expeditions like everyone else.

Yeah, you'd think the Hemi Charger would be a hit, but I imagine that it's somewhat expensive compared to the Crown Vic. It's probably a lot more expensive to repair, as well. The Crown Vic is a relatively simple, durable, sturdy machine that can take a lot of pounding. It can push disabled cars out of the way, hop curbs, etc fairly well, and has a pretty high load capacity. One of my friends has an '04 Crown Vic, and the little GVWR sticker on the door says 5600 pounds. I'd guess the car weighs around 4100-4200? Well, a Hemi Charger/300C weighs almost that, but only has a GVWR of around 4800-4900 pounds. It's built to go fast and handle well, but really can't take that much of a beating, most likely.

I remember seeing a police test of a Magnum with the 3.5, and it was considerably slower than the Intrepid with the 3.5. I'm guessing the heavier body, heavier RWD setup, etc, hurt it somewhat.

With police cars, I think they make (or used to make) them in three different classes: Patrol class, Pursuit class, and Interceptor class. Interceptors are usually the high performance stuff like Camaros and Mustangs, but also lesser stuff, like the high-output sedan versions. My '89 Gran Fury, with its 318-4bbl, for example, was considered an Interceptor. However, there was also a police version of the 318-2bbl Gran Fury. Basically, they took the civilian model and gave it upgrades such as the windage tray, transmission/oil coolers, bigger brakes, etc, but no performance mods, so it still had the tame engine and rear-end. That was what they called the Pursuit class.

Then, there's the Patrol class, which is meant for patroling neighborhoods, going to court, donut runs, serving summonses, etc. No real need for it to perform, as it's designed for light duty, and if they need to go catch a speeder, for example, they just call in for an interceptor or pursuit, I guess. Back in the day they used to make Mopar police cars with slant six engines for this purpose. Also, K-cars and Citations were occasionally pressed into service.

I'd hope that they wouldn't be dumb enough to put a 2.7 into a Charger copcar, but if it was just a patrol class vehicle, I guess it's a possibility. Personally, I'd like to see Chrysler just drop this engine entirely and replace it with a lower-output 3.5, or a de-stroked/de-bored version, like the 3.2 they used from 1998-01. The 2.7 is just too expensive to manufacture, VERY expensive to replace when it breaks, and the engine is really too peaky, power wise, to work in a heavier car like a Charger. They had to re-cam the thing for use in the heavier cars, which knocked peak hp down from 200@~6000 to 190@6400, while torque stayed the same at 190 ft-lb. It's supposed to be a broader curve though, and the peak comes on at 4000 rpm, rather than ~4900.

Still, putting a 2.7 under the hood of a 3800 pound Charger makes about as much sense as putting an 85 hp slant six under the hood of a full-sized 1980 Mopar. And yes, they did that, too! I wonder if the 2.7 is so overmatched that real world (rather then EPA estimate) fuel economy is better with the bigger engine? That used to be the case with some of the 1979-83 Mopars, where the 318 would actually get better economy than the slant six.

andre1969

if anyone wants to check 'em out, here's the link for the Charger, and here's the link for the Intrepid.

qbrozen

looks great with those wheels!

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the 2.7 comes with traction control, so that could be your answer.(?)

maybe they dumped it because they wanted the V8?

OR, maybe it was a tester. You know, the one they got to see if it would suit their needs and then they would order more. It didn't fly, so bye bye.

guss

I can see why you like the police packages. The Charger is nasty looking. Is the black a repaint of the traditional black and white ?

You are kinda of a hoarder(no offence I hope), will you end up having to fix your Intrepid anyway if you buy one of these. I can see not trading it in if you will only get small money for it.

andre1969

The Charger is nasty looking. Is the black a repaint of the traditional black and white ?

I'm not sure where these dark blue police cars are coming from, but I remember back in the day, this particular lot used to get a run of Crown Vic copcars (the older "flying brick" style) that were painted in that same scheme. So I'd imagine that some federal agency is ordering them. I'm hoping they're factory-painted, or at least professionally done up somewhere, and not just a re-spray. The county copcars around here are just the generic white, although in the next county over, they're a mix of dark blue and light blue. And I think Maryland state police cars are a combination of black and dark green. Once upon a time they used to be tan.

If I did buy one of these cars, I'd probably just trade my Intrepid to be done with it. I do tend to hoard things, but I'm also a little bit leery about keeping newer cars too far past their expiration date. The days of $1000 engines, $650 transmissions, and $1.98 ballast resistors are long gone when it comes to newer cars! And even if I don't get much in trade for it, it'll still be one less thing to insure, maintain, repair, pay registration on, etc.

michaellno

Yeah, but do you want to start over with car payments again?

Or, do you feel that is an acceptable trade-off to have a reliable car in your fleet?

andre1969

Yeah, but do you want to start over with car payments again?

Ooh, yuck...I forgot about car payments! Plus, I had been thinking about getting something a bit more economical and smaller next time around, like a Civic or 4-cyl Altima. Getting an ex-police car is kind of going in the opposite direction!

I'd really like to hold off on car payments for as long as possible, and I figure as long as repairs on the Intrepid end up running significantly less than a monthly payment, I'll try to keep it running. I've put about $1300 into it so far this year, which comes out to around $185-190 per month. When I was still paying it off, it was $347.66 per month.

I didn't have to put hardly any money into it in 2006. Just oil changes, a transmission service, a junkyard wheel/tire/hubcap from when one got stolen off the car, and a new tire when another one got popped from hopping a curb. Maybe that's what made it ultimately need a new bearing hub?

In 2005 I had to have new rear brake pads put on, put in a new battery myself (a real pain, next time I might just pay to have it done), and fix an oil pan leak (drain hole stripped).

I guess I've put maybe $2000 into the car, plus oil changes/filters/etc, since it was paid off in November 2004, and that only comes out to about $65 per month. I could probably keep the thing running indefinitely for less than what a monthly car payment on an equivalent new car would be, but at some point in time I'll ultimately get tired of it.

Optimally, I'd like to hold off until next summer before replacing it.

woodyww

My '00 Intrepid has about 134,000 miles on it, and I just noticed yesterday that the a/c isn't really blowing so cold anymore. It needs new tie rod bushings, too

I've put about $1300 into it so far this year, which comes out to around $185-190 per month

I'm always intrigued by the question of whether to keep pouring repair $$ into an older car, or buy a new (ish) car. Personally, I wouldn't have the patience to keep repairing an older car, unless it's some "enthusiast", or collector type of vehicle. And even then I don't have the patience for long.

What are the payments on a new Civic or 4-cyl Altima? Hopefully not that much more than $185-190 per month.....

bumpy

I'm always intrigued by the question of whether to keep pouring repair $$ into an older car, or buy a new (ish) car.

Financially, it's always better to keep fixing up an older car that runs (unless it's an out-of-warranty German car) than to buy or lease a newish car. However, at some point the extra money is worth the freedom from aggravation of keeping the old bomber going.

nippononly

Of course, one major engine or transmission repair can cost as much as a whole year of payments. On an older car, you could get two of those in 2 years, and adding in the cost of other smaller repairs, the logic of keeping it vs getting the new car under warranty with a 3- or 4-year loan comes into question.

Not intending to contradict you here, just saying "always" might be going a bit too far. Most of the time it does pay to keep your old car going, just on the pure numbers. But then there's the other considerations (newer car, nicer car, upsizing, downsizing, more safety, more/less features, etc), including my personal nemesis, CCBS! :-P

andre1969

Of course, one major engine or transmission repair can cost as much as a whole year of payments. On an older car, you could get two of those in 2 years, and adding in the cost of other smaller repairs, the logic of keeping it vs getting the new car under warranty with a 3- or 4-year loan comes into question.

That was one of the good things about my '89 Gran Fury copcar. I remember asking the guy I bought it from about replacement costs. I bought it from a dealership that specializes in refurbishing old police cars. He said that if the engine blew, he could put in another used one for about $1,000. If the tranny went, he could throw in a used one for around $300 or so. The downside though, is that this place was about 60 miles from where I live, so it would've been annoying to get it towed out there.

I never did have any problems with the engine or tranny, specifically, on that car. It had a voracious appetite for starters, though. The fuel pump also went out on it, and so did the distributor. Also needed a new radiator and one freeze plug, and two power window motors, and I'm sure some other odds and ends I'm forgetting. I finally gave up on it when the water pump started to go. At that point it had about 118,000 miles on it. If I had never bought the Intrepid, I would have kept that Gran Fury longer, and put the money into it, but I was just getting tired of it. I also discovered that a lot of its parts would swap onto my '79 5th Avenue, so I'll admit I did a bit of cannibalizing, once the water pump went out.

In contrast, I think with my Intrepid, if the 2.7 blows it's about $6K, and if the tranny goes it's around $2000-2500. I've heard it's actually cheaper to swap a 3.2/3.5 into an Intrepid if the 2.7 blows, but if my engine goes, I'm still not sinking that kind of money into it. Luckily, the engine does still seem strong, although it does blow just a little bit of gray smoke on startup.

michaellno

Ah, the question all CCBA'ers have to ask themselves.

Since Andre has a decent sized fleet (unlike most of us, who have to drive the same car every day), I would think that hanging on to the 'Trep may make sense.

$65/month is pretty darn good, I would say. Figure another year is about $800, then trade it in for something a year or two old.

But, like I said in my earlier post, do you need to have something reliable, or is it the desire to have something new and different?

EDIT: I think akangl is out of the market for the time being, unless she picks something up from the junkyard for her kid.

nippononly

I agree, I am sure I have NEVER heard akangl praise any of her cars as much as this Pilot. She just may have found the one that will take her through to 2012...

roadburner

Financially, it's always better to keep fixing up an older car that runs (unless it's an out-of-warranty German car) than to buy or lease a newish car.

Hmmmm... Time to debunk another internet myth.
I'm the original owner of a 1995 3 Series that has over 110K on the clock. The maintenance and repair costs have averaged out to @$40/month, and that includes three sets of Z-rated tires, and a full set of pads and rotors(it used to see the track several times per year). My last horrendous repair cost was the brake light switch- all of $16.
My wife used to drive a 1997 5 Series which cost @$85/month to run.
Note however, that I don't rent(lease) new cars, and I always pay off any financing within three years of purchasing a car.

british_rover

Yup BMWs can be very economical to run for extended period of time.

Just follow these simple rules...

Inline 6 engines only
No I-drive
No AWD

Even Mercs can be good to run for a long time provided you pick the right year and model.

The only German brand I would really be worried about across the board is Audi. Audi provides zero support for out of production models which drives the cost of everything through the roof.

I have a client that buys a three or four year old 5 series and then puts 120,000-140,000 miles on it in four years. He has a good indie BMW mechanic and has never had a huge repair bill. This has been his plan since the late 80s and it has continued to work for him.

andre1969

Yup BMWs can be very economical to run for extended period of time.

Just follow these simple rules...

Inline 6 engines only
No I-drive
No AWD


I've also heard that it's best to stick to the 3-series, that the 5- and 7-series get really expensive to maintain, and forget about anything that starts with an even number. If you have to ask, you can't afford the maintenance!

andre1969

But, like I said in my earlier post, do you need to have something reliable, or is it the desire to have something new and different?

Well at this point, it's not really critical that I have something ultra-reliable. About the longest trip I take these days is when I go up to Carlisle for the shows, which is about 120 miles away. And for the GM and Mopar show, I always take one of my antiques up. And now that I think about it, the other two times I went up there, I borrowed my uncle's Corolla for the better fuel economy!

So really, for most of my needs, my two '79 New Yorkers and '85 Silverado fit the bill. The '76 LeMans and '67 Catalina are too "nice" to be regular drivers, and there's no way I'm about to drive a seatbelt-less 1957 DeSoto on a regular basis.

The last major trip the Trep went on was back in May '05, when my roommates and I went to Florida for a week. We probably put around 2500-2600 miles on it, with no scary surprises (except for a speed trap in Emporia, VA!) We're going out to Cedar Point, OH in a couple weeks, but for that trip we're taking my buddy's '06 Xterra.

So that Intrepid copcar and Charger copcar were just spur-of-the-moment lusts that happened to catch my eye. They're already leaving my mind. I guess man was just not meant to be monogamous when it comes to cars! :P

andre1969

I wonder how low that dealer near me would go on this 2004 Park Ave Ultra? Asking $18995 with ~53,000 miles on it. But judging from the lack of leaves on the trees, I'm guessing they've had the car for at least 4 months!

british_rover

The five series is fine as long as you get the inline 6. In my experience a six cylinder 5 series is even more reliable then the 3 series. As it has been explained to me the 5 series is made on a much slower moving production line then the 3 series so the build quality is better.

jefferyg

First, I'd find out what's wrong with it. If nothing major, I'd low-ball him at about $14,500 OTD, give him my number, then walk away. If he really needs to move it, he'll call you back with a good counter offer.

akangl

I am sure I have NEVER heard akangl praise any of her cars as much as this Pilot. She just may have found the one that will take her through to 2012...

17 days, 2650 miles and I still LOVE IT!! I really enjoy driving it, was thinking that today as I ran all over doing errands. Just a super nice car. I don't think I've been this happy with a car ever. This might be the one.......

jefferyg

This might be the one.......

You'll keep until Honda redesigns it and then you'll trade it for the newer model. :P It's your nature and you can't help it. The itch always comes back.

akangl

You'll keep until Honda redesigns it and then you'll trade it for the newer model. It's your nature and you can't help it. The itch always comes back.

Thought about that and I don't think the redesign is out until 2009, so should be well over the 40k mark by then. However if its anything like the MDX then GAG, they can keep it, don't like that redesign at all.

guss

so should be well over the 40k mark by then.

Anyone have Labor Day yet ?

kyfdx

Picking Labor Day, and skipping the whole month of August? I don't know...

michaellno

Didn't you take the 'Trep to OH when you picked up the LeMans last year?

I agree with jeffreyg -- offer $14,500 on the Park Avenue and see what happens.

Having just ferried a '92 Subaru with 140K on the clock 1100 miles from Colorado to California, I think that cars are way more reliable now than they used to be. We'll see how my L300 holds out over the next couple of years.

I'm hoping that by then, the furor over the new BMW 1-series will have died down and I can pick one up for something under MSRP.

kyfdx

That was over 2 years ago when Andre came to Ohio.. I know, I was there..

guss

I am lucky if I have the same car for 2 years.

woodyww

Inline 6 engines only. No I-drive. No AWD

I've also heard that it's best to stick to the 3-series, that the 5- and 7-series get really expensive to maintain

I agree with british_rover that the 5-series is generally very reliable. (Knock wood, because I have one). And as much as I lusted after a V8, I have the I-6 in mine. So far--it's cost me--Maybe (?) $800 in the 5 years I've owned it (buying it when it was 2 years old). And $200 of that was because I spaced on getting the 15K service until a month after the free maintenence period ran out (Doh!).

I'm not sure I'd have the guts to own an out-of-warranty 7-series. Too bad, 'cuz they're such great cars (at least pre-Bangle), but known for needing lots of really expensive repairs & maintenence. And maintaining a 12 cyl. model can get even more insane. But, maybe no more so than a similar era S-Class or the Audi A8.

Ditto for the 8-Series I've heard.

I dunno about avoiding AWD on bmw's. There are people still driving E30 3 series AWD models from 16-20 years ago, but that was a totally different AWD system I believe than recent models. Obviously tho AWD will probably be more expensive to repair than 2WD.....

andre1969

That was over 2 years ago when Andre came to Ohio.. I know, I was there..

Wow, it's hard to believe that's been over two years now! I think it was like the 3rd weekend in April, 2005 that I bought that car.

kyfdx

I was thinking May.... but, close enough!! (I still owe you a milkshake...lol)

corvette

That is a big car--my grandfather has one and it barely fits in his garage. The sheetrock in front of it has the scars to prove it! Although, with your fleet, I guess you're used to a bigger car...

I'm closing on a house in a couple of weeks, so I don't think I'll be buying any more vehicles anytime soon!

andre1969

hat is a big car--my grandfather has one and it barely fits in his garage. The sheetrock in front of it has the scars to prove it! Although, with your fleet, I guess you're used to a bigger car...

Yeah, compared to most of the cars I've had, that Park Ave might not seem that big. I guess it's what? About 208" long? That's about what my '76 LeMans is. Still, sometimes the shape of a car, or its blind spots, etc, can be more of a determinant in maneuverability than actual dimensions. For instance, when I took my LeMans to the GM Nationals in June, I had to parallel park in front of the place I was staying. I could not park that thing to save my life! I can't see the back of the car because of the way it slopes, and I was always further away from the curb than I thought it was. I think part of it may be the beltine, though. In most modern cars, the beltline gradually slopes upward, and even in something like my '79 New Yorker, it's level. But on the LeMans, it actually drops down a bit towards the back of the door. So maybe that was throwing off my perception a bit?

My '79 New Yorker has about 13 inches on my LeMans, but I find it to be a cinch to park. It's more squared-off though, and I can see its decklid through the rear window, so that helps me to judge.

My Intrepid is a nightmare when it comes to visiblity. Huge C-pillar (not that obvious frome the exterior styling, but from the inside looking out it rivals any 70's car I've ever had), high rear window that obscures the decklid, and a sloping hood that I can barely see. But the edges of the car are rounded off enough that it's not too hard to squeeze its 203 inches into some pretty tight spots. Plus, it also has a fairly low beltline.

lilengineerboy

But the edges of the car are rounded off enough that it's not too hard to squeeze its 203 inches into some pretty tight spots. Plus, it also has a fairly low beltline.

When I took driver's ed in HS, Mr. Guck (yeah thats his name) taught me to parallel park. Most of my friends were the $$$ kids and they took it privately. Guess what, Sears never taught them to parallel park. Even today, they pass spots on the street that I can get into (even when I am driving their silly SUVs).

kyfdx

Drivers ED was in a '74 Impala, and I practiced in my mother's '72 Lincoln ...

Can I parallel park? You better believe it..

rworrell

Took my test in the above car, parallel parked it--passed on the first try. A 222"-long wagon! :shades: (specs here).

I still can parallel park in spots none of my friends (nor my wife) would even attempt. So, I got that going for me, which is nice...

kyfdx

So, I got that going for me, which is nice...

sandman46

Drove these in high school, as my folks didn't want to spring for a 3rd car. They were both tanks and was definitely a challenge to parallel park those brutes.

The Sandman

guss

You must have been on the right side of the tracks.

I took my test in a '72 Toyota Corolla, was probably 160". But, it was a stick, talk about your pressure.

Our other car was a '71 Pontiac Catalina (in avocado no less). My parents gave me the choice on which car to use for the test. Since I had been secretly driving the Corolla for about a year before it was a no brainer. Big brothers will make you do the worst things.

lilengineerboy

I took my test in a '72 Toyota Corolla, was probably 160". But, it was a stick, talk about your pressure.

We had a '71 Corona, auto. I actually never drove that car, it has bias ply tires and the tie rods were pretty much totally gone. When it was sold in the 80s, it was pretty much impossible to keep the thing going straight.

kyfdx

Took my test in a '74 Coupe De Ville... That was our other car..

Not really sure why I even got my license... No car for me until I was 18... and rarely got to drive the family cars (with permission.. ).

andre1969

in a 1980 Malibu coupe, which is about 193" long. And the parallel parking spot in the driver's test was 6 x 25 feet, so needless to say, it was a snap. Too bad 6x25' parking spots aren't the norm out there in the "real" world! Here at work, I can't even fit most of my cars into the tiny parallel parking spots they have. My pickup (212") or New Yorkers (221", and they called that "downsized" :surprise: ) would overhang the parallel spots on both ends.

fezo

Took my test in a 1967 Pontiac Tempest wagon. Four years later I had that car at college in New Brunswick, NJ. That was when I went from being able to parallel park to becoming a pro! You'd take any spot that looked even remotely like it would fit in!

bdc2020

So I was just browsing around and saw this used 2004 Mercedes. I'm not very familiar with the different lines, but have always liked the wagon versions style.

http://www.cdmdata.com/cdmdigitallot/VehicleDetails.aspx?DealerID=9314&vin=WDBUH- 65J04A445691&dID=9314

Are these unreliable cars for this model and year? It sure looks spotless!

woodyww

FWIW, CR gives an overall "avoid" rating for '00-'06 E-Class V6. They give those "big black dots" (bad!) to trans., electrical, climate, brakes, & power equip. problems for the '04 & some other years.

There are people on this board who seem to own M-B's with few problems tho. And the one you listed has really low miles which should help.....

fintail

Always be sure to have a warranty, these cars seem to take many years to get the bugs worked out.

michaellno

Huh .. I took my drivers test in my folks' '73 Corona. Poop brown with a 3-speed auto tranny and a bench seat up front.

I'm guessing that car wasn't any larger than today's Aveo or Accent.