Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

lemmer

You don't have anything but an emotional investment in the car right now. Take a step back and think about how you would have approached the car if you'd know about the carfax from the outset.

ateixeira

Anyone know what ever happened to this lawsuit?

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/10/29/is-bmw-selling-bought-back-lemons-as-cert- ified-pre-owned/

lemmer

We have a local independent dealer who always has a pile of lemon law BMWs, many of which they claim are under CPO warranty. Here is an example -

BMW 335

nyccarguy

So I'm beginning to see how this whole CCBA phenomenon starts. Monday night I dropped off my 2010 Acura TSX at the dealer for service. There were a few issues I wanted to have taken care of before the warranty exprires. The shelf in the glove box that holds the owner's manual fell off, the driver's side door lock actuator has been squeaking, & the past few days (when the car is cold) when I make a hard turn the oil light flashes for a second and then goes away. My car currently has 45,000 miles.

The awesome dealer where I service my car (Acura of Westchester in Larchmont, NY) always provides me with a loaner car. Usually it is a 4 cyl TSX (like mine) or a ZDX (explain to me again how this a $50,000 vehicle). This time I got a TSX V6. If you'd like my personal impressions & comparison between the 4 cyl TSX & 6 cyl TSX, check out my latest post on ENTRL LEVEL LUXURY PERFORMANCE SEDANS here on TH. Well, there's nothing like an extra 79 horsepwer & 84 lb ft of torque to get the gears in my head grinding. Actually, what really got me thinking was when I got my 4 cyl TSX back and nailed it to merge onto I 95.

Now I wouldn't buy a V6 TSX, but wanting some a lot of extra oomph plus the fact that my TSX will be out of warranty in less than 5 K miles plus it is probably worth more than I owe on it right now...

I'll be fine. As long as I don't set foot into a dealership to test drive something else. (Talking to myself) - Cmon Bradd, only 3 more years until the TSX is paid off. Its a freakin Honda, built to run forever and a day.

qbrozen

absolutely true.

So, he can't deliver till Friday anyway. He's sending over paperwork for me to start on (credit app, trade-in info, insurance info). So I've got 2 days to really let this sink in and think about it. His UCM says it was just a bumper repaint. I'll move forward assuming that's true. If my personal inspection shows any different, its all over.

The offer is $11k for mine and $26,995 for theirs. That's a strong offer on mine. So let's say that's at least $500 over on mine, making it $26,495 on theirs, effectively. Galves pegs theirs at $23k. So $3500 over on a CPO car would be really a very good deal... hell, a great deal. NOW... what kind of deduct for the carfax? That's the rub.

qbrozen

wow. a 2010 and only 5k left in the warranty? as Terry used to say, you need to find a girlfriend closer to home.

nyccarguy

I bought the car at the end of August 2009 during CASH 4 CLUNKERS. Acura dealers had virtually no 2009s left on their lot. There were a lot of 2010 Base models. I wanted the Technology Pkg. I also wanted a car with a black interior which was difficult to find at the various Acura dealers participating in the CASH FOR CLUNKERS program. There weren't too many Acura dealers participating in CASH FOR CLUNKERS because the only model they sold that qualified was the TSX.

So yes, my car is a 2010 with 45,000 miles.

It is actually 2 years & 8 months old. Obviously come trade in time, they just look at it as a 2010 with 45K miles though.

Keep in mind during the 1st year of ownership, we were also leasing a 2007 X3 that we put maybe 8K miles on.

Like I said before, if I had a decent amount of cash to put down and could pay off a car loan of say a CPO 535xi in say 2 years then I might consider trading up. I just don't have the extra money to put down right now. Also taking out a 5 year loan on a BMW with only 1 year left on the warranty is a bit crazy in my book.

qbrozen

ah, but a CPO has quite a bit more than that.

This 135 I'm considering is CPO until July 2014.

I bought my GTI and financed it with zero warranty.

nyccarguy

True, the CPO warranty would cover me until 100K. I'm still way too practical too get rid of my perfectly good Acura TSX.

nyccarguy

I've also still got my 2001 Prelude Type SH when I want to drive a car I absolutely LOVE!

breld

FWIW, back in 2006, I traded in my perfectly good, paid off, 2004 TSX with about 30k miles for a brand new 530xi.

So I'd support you

breld

Our '08 328xi is CPO and in my recent consideration of trading in on a 535, discovered that the hood had been repainted. When we had purchased it, I really didn't give it a second thought to check for repairs, since it was CPO, but it seems that is no guarantee of accident history.

Difference for us is that the carfax is actually clean and doesn't reflect an accident.

Like you said, assuming you're satisfied with the repair job, it's mostly a matter of how long you think you may keep it, and if that length of time will diminish the effect on resale (obviously considering you're getting a good deal upfront).

Now, the 135 is small, but will it fit under the tree?

atlplayax

Geez, can't beleive they can get away with this. Is there a way for a unsuspecting buyer to check if the vehicle is a buyback before buying, does Carfax report on this ?

gouldn

When I bought my CPO X3 in 2008 (it was a 2007) the carfax showed no incidents (it was the dealer's service loaner). I owned it about three years and discovered when time to sell that it had an incident right before they sold it to me (hadn't hit the carfax yet). There was no indication other than 'accident' record on carfax about the nature of the accient. Body shops could find NOTHING, but it still NAILED the resale value. I was pretty angry at the dealer, and frankly it has soured me on the whole BMW thing. In my opinion CPO should be cream of the crop used cars, the premium they charge is significant enough. Live and learn I guess.

nyccarguy

BMW issues very strict guidelines for CPO cars. Unfortunately it is up to the dealer to execute what BMW dictates. The lesson learned here is that NOT ALL BMW dealers are created equal. I know a dealer that my parents leased & serviced 4 BMWs from & I leased and serviced 1 BMW from. I know that a CPO BMW from them is probably close to perfect.

There was a guy here on the boards a few years ago who bought a CPO X3. He was from Arizona I think. His local dealer had what looked to be the perfect CPO X3. For some reason on his test drive, he tried to open the rear windows. They both skipped on the way down & wouldn't close again. The regulators were bad, but he figured he should RUN away from that truck. He ended up getting a CPO X3 from a dealer in Los Angeles, I think.

nyccarguy

There is a dealer about 45 minutes away from me here in CT that claims to be the largest volume CPO dealer in the state. I've read on these boards about a guy from St. Louis flew here & drove home in a CPO 3er.

nyccarguy

It isn't going to be anytime soon. I'm definitely going to wait until after the TSX is paid off. I'm going to strongly consider a CPO BMW. I've only bought new, but these CPO BMWs represent a tremendous value.

qbrozen

Could you be more specific? Do you know how much it affected the value?

gouldn

In my case it knocked $3000 off the trade in value ... From 21 to 18k. There was no sign whatsoever of the damage ... Just the carfax ding

qbrozen

Ah. Thank you. That's the first bit of solid info I've gotten on this matter. Wish I could just find out from a UCM how much they would deduct. But the 15% in your case is kind of what my gut was telling me.

I did try something else, but the amount it deducted seems too severe so I'm not sure how much I trust it. Auto trader has a feature where you plug in details about your car and they give you an offer of how much you can sell it for to a small list of wholesalers close by. Tried this with my gti and the number was actually right there with trade in value.

So I plugged in an undamaged 135 and one that had a ding on carfax and replaced/repainted bumper.

qbrozen

Sorry. iPad giving me problems finishing that first one.

Anyway, auto trader pounded the car for nearly 20% in this case. Again, though, I'm not sure how accurate since their evaluator left out real basic questions such as if it has navi, sport, and premium.

gouldn

I shopped it around during trade (actually I sold for cash) and pretty much found that the 3K deduction was solid at every place I tried, so I'd stand by that number in my case.

The problem with carfax is that it's kind of binary ... either clean or not clean. The accident reported had no details of course, and since it happened outside of my ownership tenure I couldn't reassure any potential private party that it was minor.

I really didn't care too much in my own case, I was ready to sell the car anyway, I was just annoyed that the dealer MUST have known (it was their service loaner) and didn't tell me. I vented, and reported this to BMW NA but got no response.

Frankly the X3 was not my favorite car anyway. The ride was too stiff, the AT was jerky, and it was just too fancy to use as a SUV. Other than that it was was 100% reliable, and I honestly did not spend one cent outside of gas since all service was performed during the free period. My favorite time during my ownership was when I got a 135i stick as a loaner. That was a fun car .. but I could just smell all the tickets I'd get in that little hot rod.

qbrozen

Well, after this kept me awake for a while last night, I decided I can't do the deal as is. For the right price, I would still consider it, but its not worth it as it stands. I didn't want to kill it altogether. I wanted to squash it, but leave a window of opportunity if they are at all interested.

This is what I just sent to the salesperson:

I apologize, but after some thought, I can't do this deal. The carfax is going to come back to haunt me at trade-in time. The value just takes too much of a hit to make it worthwhile, regardless of how little damage was done. To even take the gamble, I would need to knock another 10% off the price, and your manager may rather send it to auction than do that.

I do appreciate your efforts, and, again, I am sorry. I made a mistake by not checking the carfax first.

lemmer

Sounds like you made the right choice.

gouldn

I think that's the right thing to do. I'm sure you can find a clean carfax 135 somewhere.

qbrozen

oh sure. I mean, the one I drove a couple of days ago had one, and there is another up north that I will call about as soon as its confirmed this deal is dead. Its the black/red with 42k miles.

Of course, I'd rather have this one with 30k and navi, but not at the current risk. By my estimations, they are already giving me a $1k discount from fair value. If they drop another $2k, I'll do the deal. Odds are slim on that, of course. Funny they'd rather send to auction and get $20k for it, but you just know that's what will happen.

28firefighter

Is the dealer able to write off the loss if it gets sent to auction versus being sold to a consumer at a loss?

qbrozen

no clue. good question.

I doubt it would be a loss to me, though. But I really can't say for sure. I've heard BMW's certification is quite pricey. It also, of course, depends on what they paid for it. It was a lease turn-in, so did they pay full value to BMW finance on a car with a bad carfax? Entirely possible, I'm sure.

stickguy

cars are worth what they are worth. And it works for dealers too (doesn't matter what you have in it).

Just track the VIN, find out where it goes after auction, and buy it then on the cheap!

all this car fax talk might be why the white 2005 325 (low miles) I posted about the other day never sold. they want top $$ for it (miles based I assume), but it also has a front end accident (no details of course) on the carfax.

Considering I was looking at it as more of a 12K car to keep for years (and let a kid drive), not all that much of an issue to me. As long as it checked out OK, and of course, the dealer slashed his price (think he has it listed at $14,995? For a while 2005 325i with 43K on the clock).

stickguy

I also wonder how many people actually do look at the carfax, or know enough to question the value hit (even if dealer proves it was a big nothing repair)?

the used lot that has the 325 I mentioned even puts up a link to the car fax. You don't even have to pay for it or do any work!

gouldn

It seems to me that a dirty carfax (even the 'accident front-end damage' reports) basically just reduces the pool of potentials buyers for any car. This is not a problem if you get a car checked out and they find no issues and you keep it forever. However in this forum, people turn the cars over. A dirty carfax ... especially under somebody else's watch really limits the options when it's time to sell. Many private buyers will not even consider it, and the wholesalers definitely knock $$ off.

nyccarguy

What do you think they'd let this 2008 Monaco Blue 328xi Stick Shift go for?

Just in case the link doesnt work. 2008 328xi. Monaco Blue/Black Leather. 6-Speed Stick, Sport Pkg, cold weather pkg, NO NAV. 38K Miles. I think they've had it for a while!

Asking $27,938

qbrozen

The SHOULD cut it loose for $25k ... but you know these bimmer dealers. Trade-in is $20k. They've had it 4 months according to the carfax.

isellhondas

If they knocked 3000.00 off the trade in value, you got shafted.

Car Faxes do nothing but make money for the Car Fax people.

" An Accident" on a Car Fax can be nothing more than a bumper scrape that was repaired. Also, a lot of incidents never get reported to Car Fax.

Of course, a car can have a ding on a Car Fax and still be sold as a Certified Used Car.

You should have walked away from that deal!

gouldn

I disagree that a dirty carfax dosn't lower value ... I do agree that they are somewhat useless as a tool to assess the severity of the accident.

Of course it _can_ be minor, and that's the problem with carfax ... the actual event is unknown if it happened outside of your own tenure. People DO look at carfax and if two vehicles are identical save for one has a clean car fax and one dirty, I can tell you the clean car is going to get a higher price.

I shopped it at several places, and finally ended up just running it though the auction myself (well with the assistance of a broker I've worked with). There is no doubt in my mind that the carfax report significantly reduced the value.

In my opinion the point at which I was 'shafted' was when the original dealer sold me the car with (then) a clean carfax. The fact that the accident appeared later was my lousy luck, but I feel the dealership must have known (again it was their own service loaner).

Anyway it's all in the past now.

isellhondas

Yes, you are correct but some stores will try to make too big a deal out a tainted Car Fax.

Whoever sold you that car may or may not have been aware that "something" had been done to the car. Who knows?

Also, modern body shops are perfectly capable of restoring a wrecked car to as new condition. It's not like the old days when "the car will NEVER be the same"

As cars age, the impact of a dirty Car Fax becomes less and less important.

corvette

http://WWW.WILSONMOTORCO.NET/2002_BMW_5%20series_142073022.veh

Miles are high, but it appears to be in good condition other than the trim on the rear bumper and the missing switch covers on the driver's power seat.

I'd probably look for one with lower miles, though. How big of a money pit are these, if you can find one with a service history from a private owner?

nyccarguy

Ask qbrozen. He's got one!

roadburner

Not an SP car. Meh.

akangl

Also, modern body shops are perfectly capable of restoring a wrecked car to as new condition.

I disagree. My '11 Pilot was NEVER the same. Yes, they replaced all damaged parts with brand new Honda parts, BUT they could never get the paint to match. I could tell from across a parking lot that it didn't match, park it next to another '11 Pilot of the same color and the difference was sickening. No matter how many times they tried to fix it, it just didn't seem possible. I didn't take it to a crappy body shop either, I took it to one of the top rated shops in the state.

That experience is the main reason I'm living with the paint flaws the F-150 has even though the dealer was more than willing to pay for a repaint.

qbrozen

I would avoid an automatic. Read the E39 board on bimmerfest. It seems like every other post is an automatic trans going south on those.

corvette

Yeah, I noticed that, although it looks like it has the Sport wheels. I really like the steering wheel on the Sport Package.

Automatic is a requirement if I'm going to drive it regularly. Should I be looking for a G35 instead?

qbrozen

So that salesman with the repaired 135 just called. Doesn't sound like they are budging anymore on the car. He claims they have ALOT more into it than its worth and they've already been offered $27k at an auction down south. That's all absurd, frankly, so I just reiterated that I'm a buyer at $25k and he can let his boss know that. Give me a call if that interests him. And I said if he's got $27k, he needs to take it and run, because that car is going to do $21k at auction.

I also sent an email last night to the salesperson with the black/red CPO with 42k miles. Gave him all the details and asking number on my car and made an offer on their car. No response yet. Also sent one to the Mazda dealer up in CT with the red/tan one with 53k big miles. I really didn't want to go that high on the miles, but its listed at $21,500, so its tough to arge with.

roadburner

He claims they have A LOT more into it than its worth and they've already been offered $27k at an auction down south. That's all absurd, frankly, so I just reiterated that I'm a buyer at $25k and he can let his boss know that.

In KY we would say that the salesman was "peeing on your leg and telling you that it's raining."

I would have told him the same thing I sometimes told people in court:

"I was born at night, but it wasn't last night."

lemmer

Are you still thinking this salesguy isn't being a tad disingenuous with you?

qbrozen

Oh, I don't know. Honestly, I don't care. It doesn't affect me. He could be just relaying a line of BS his boss is feeding him, ya know?

lemmer

It is all just a game, I suppose.

isellhondas

A top notch painter would have done a better job on your Pilot. It may be a top rated shop but it takes GREAT skill to blend and match paint.

If the difference was, indeed "sickening" then they REALLY botched the job.

Some colors are much harder than others to blend and match but a quality shop can get it right the first time.

Maybe this is why car painters tend to be Prima Donnas?

qbrozen

A game indeed.

Dealer 2 emailed back that they'd be at $14k-$15k on my trade. Ummm... ok, where do I sign? But I have not been able to get the salesperson on the phone all day. ugh.

nyccarguy

What do you think of this 2011 G37 Sedan w/ 6 speed stick

White over Stone (grey?) interior. Under 4000 Miles. Asking way too much as you can probably buy new for not too much more money. RWD & 6-Speed Stick in our But it snows 5 times a year & there's a lot of traffic northeast. Someone's going to get a sick car at the auction for $30K?