Interior is that (IMO) hideously ugly oxblood/burgundy color that GM was fond of in the 1990s. It is a base model, I think the loaded Brougham came with a vinyl roof and leather.
My great-uncle had a 1994 Brougham and replaced it with an identical 1996 Brougham when he heard they were going to quit making them. He kept that car until he died in 2003.
Yes, GM was a big fan of the matching exterior/interior during that era. Besides burgundy, blue and green come to mind as other colors they did this with. My bet is that the interior of this Caddy used to look a lot more maroon before it faded to the purplish hue.
2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
That isn't the dreaded Northstar engine is it? I've heard that they were prone to blow head gaskets which usually cost more to fix than the car was worth. I was looking at a 1997 STS with 105k until the owner told me it needed that repair ($2500). Car was only worth $3k according to Edmunds so I passed.
As to prices, I picked up a 1993 Deville last year with 81k miles for $1200. That was the last year for the old body style and the more reliable 4.9L motor.
The Fleetwood is more upscale but a year later it's the same age as when I bought mine. With gas going through the roof I wouldn't pay more than $3000 no matter how good the condition was. Also, Caddys back then had a ton of electrical issues. I can attest to that. What works when you buy it might not work a month later.
On the positive side, I really love driving the Deville. When you get to a certain age your body appreiates the comfort, room and luxury of a big car.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I see some car term used often in different contexts and I wonder if my understanding of their meaning is the same as everyone else's. So if you will indulge me and offer your definition of the following terms I see in car ads:
Survivor
Daily Driver
10 footer
20 footer
Also, on a higher milage car what would you look for to determine it's condition--smoke? Noise? Oil leaks? Rough idle?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Survivor: Unrestored. Condition can vary. Can be rough, but shouldn't have any major rust or rot. Can be driven as is or fairly easily restored.
Daily Driver: Reliable. Condition is completely independent of this. You could theoretically drive a cosmetically horrible car daily as long as it is mechanically sound.
10 footer: A car that looks good from 10 feet away. At 20 feet, you may even think it perfect. Paint is shiny, but does have imperfections that can be seen upon close inspection. No visible rust/rot. Interior is livable.
20 footer: Rougher than the 10 footer. May have very small rust or rot starting in the inconspicuous places like the rockers, under the fenders, or around the windows. Probably needs new carpets and seats and steering wheel recovered, although usable enough as is.
On a higher mileage car, all of what you listed applies. Oil leaks aren't a deal breaker, they just need close scrutiny. Is it easily repaired? Is it minor enough that you could live with it for a while? As for smoke... color matters of course. Blue smoke I'm usually running away from (could be head or could be rings - I don't want to risk it). White smoke will depend on how long it lasts. If it does it all the time, forget it (head gasket or cracked head likely). Black smoke is often a fixable problem without too much hassle. Again, it will depend on exactly when it happens and how much.
Also, how you view a car's condition is completely dependent on your comfort level and skillset. If you are a checkbook mechanic, buy the best example you can find because it will be far cheaper than fixing one up. If you are a body man or have close connections to a body shop. you may want to find a mechanically sound car that needs cosmetic work. If, like me, you have NO skills with body work but can do just about anything mechanically, you'll want to find a cosmetically perfect car that might need some tinkering.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If, at the 4:00 close, the Dow, Nasdaq, and S&P500 are all up for the day, I'm gonna go after work and check out that Caddy. If any of them are down, I'll hold off and try again tomorrow! :shades:
The Northstars are to be avoided in those years. Besides the head gasket problems they would start to leak oil...BAD between where the halves of the split blocks came together. The dealers call that " The Northstar leak".
It's a 4000.00 (at least) job to fix and quite often, it'll total an otherwise nice car.
I heard that Cadillac finally got on top of this in 2000-2001. Maybe, maybe not?
I heard that Cadillac finally got on top of this in 2000-2001. Maybe, maybe not?
I've always been a big leery when it comes to Northstar-equipped cars as well although, as you mentioned, the newer models are supposed to be better. And I've heard that the weaker 275 hp version is better still, when it comes to long-term durability.
I think one thing that appeals to me about that Fleetwood is that it's sort of a simplistic way of making a luxury car. More like how Chrysler used to to back in the day, compared to GM. Whereas a Cadillac usually had very little in common with a Chevy, a New Yorker or Imperial really wasn't much different from a Plymouth. Just larger, bigger standard engine, nicer interior, and more power stuff standard.
So I see that Fleetwood as sort of a more modern version of my '79 New Yorker. My NYer is essentially a copcar in a fine tailored suit. That Fleetwood is basically a copcar ready to go a'pimping! In many respects, it's more Chevy than Caddy. Big, nice and luxurious, but not overly fussy and complex.
I always thought a survivor was needed to be in relatively good (at least usable) condition. But key, as original (no mods).
In classic car terms, that's what a survivor is. And many car shows have a survivor class, so that a nice, unrestored, original, yet not perfect car doesn't have to compete with one that just went through a $100K+ restoration.
But, in just everday old-car terms, I don't think it really means much. It hasn't been junked, crushed, parted out, or rusted to oblivion, so it survived. How well it survived though, is anybody's guess!
picky on the details aren't you? It just looked like a mastedon to me. Not like a Deville is somehow dainty. And how much room can a single guy possibly need?
I thought that the '96 still had the good engine though, so sorry about that.
The Fleetwood was the only RWD Caddy at the time (basically a Caprice) so its the only model that had the 350. I believe all the others got the Northstar, at that time.
Alright - I've posted a bit over at RWTIV, but I thought I'd get some thoughts from this group.
So in the last 24 hours, I've sat down to negotiate on three different Odysseys at three different dealerships, and they've all let me walk out, so either I'm overly optimistic or (more likely), simply need to be more patient.
On my 2010 CX-9 Grand Touring (no additional options, 37k miles), I've had trade-in offers ranging from $19k to $23k; qbrozen thinks there should be room to go up to $24k. I have a hard time believing I could privately sell it for much more than $24k, maybe $25k, so trade seems to be good way to go.
1st deal - '07 Ody EX-L w/RES, 58k miles. Got to a $4k difference (to my benefit) ($19k for Ody, $23k trade allowance). I said I'd do it for another $500 and they let me go.
2nd deal - '08 Ody EX-L w/RES, 47k miles. Got to a $1k difference ($21.5k for Ody, $22.5k for trade). I wanted $2k more (figured their Ody was worth $1k more than the 1st deal) and they let me go.
3rd deal - '07 Ody Touring (Nav & RES), 58k miles. Got to a $2k difference - wanted a deal like the 1st one (another $2k) and they let me go.
We'll see if anyone calls back, but I'm not really expecting it. Any suggestions on tactics, or input on whether I'm being too aggressive?
Yes, I know that conceptually it is probably a dumb idea. But other than the 169K on it, I like it! Not all that pricey at $4,200, but of course, at 3K or so would be a lot more enticing.
Wonder what a real market price on something like this should be anyway?
hmm, that seems to ring a bell. i thought Caddy had gone FWD by then, but they really aren't my thang.
Cadillac went to majority FWD starting in 1985, when the shrunken FWD DeVille and Fleetwood cars came out. They were designed around 1982, when fuel prices were high and strict CAFE regulations were looming, but as it got closer to introduction time, gas was cheap and flowing again, and CAFE seemed to be backing off, and people were flocking back to bigger cars in droves. So, as a stopgap, in 1985 Cadillac kept their RWD model around and called it Fleetwood Brougham.
Those FWD cars were supposed to come out in 1984, but GM hadn't worked all the bugs out of their 4-speed transverse automatic, so that delayed introduction to April 1984, as an early '85. Cadillac sold about 150,000 of the FWD DeVille/Fleetwoods in that extra long model year, compared to about 60,000 Fleetwood Broughams, which just had a normal model year. It sold about 50K units in 1986, 65K in '87, ~50K in '88, and ~40K in '89. For 1990, it was called simply "Brougham", and sales fell to around 33K. For 1991 that fell to 27K, and only 14K for 1992.
I'm guessing that when the Lincoln Town Car was updated for 1990, and got the new 4.6 V-8, that put a hurting on Brougham sales.
For 1993, the big RWD Caddy went aero, and adopted the body style of the Caprice and Roadmaster, and was called simply "Fleetwood" rather than "Brougham". Sales rebounded a bit, to 33K, but then slipped back to about 27K for 1994, which was the year it got the 260 hp LT1 350. They sold another 27K in 1995 and only 15,000 in the abbreviated 1996 model year, after which GM decided that the plant used to churn out Caprices, Roadmasters, and Fleetwoods would be more profitable making 4-door Tahoes and Yukons.
After 1984 the RWD Brougham/Fleetwoods became somewhat low-volume cars, compared to the likes of the FWD DeVille/Fleetwood, and the Lincoln Town Car. The FWD Caddies and the Town Cars were usually good for 100-160,000 units per year, making the RWD Caddies somewhat scarce, in comparison. They do tend to be forgotten, and I think switching the name around from Fleetwood Brougham to just Brougham and then back to Fleetwood means that the later ones, especially, tend to slip the mind.
Thanks for the feedback - I appreciate it. Just want to make sure I'm not off base and unreasonably letting good deals go.
And you're absolutely right - I don't NEED to make the move at all, which is why I'm not having a problem walking away from these good, but not great, deals. And that's a good thing.
Me too but I believe that for 1993 the Fleetwood went with the RWD platform used by Caprice. I know my 93 Deville is FWD an about 1000 pounds lighter. It seem over the years GM would alternate between making the Fleetwood more like the Deville and then completely different. I think at one point Fleetwood was just an upgrade on the Deville but in 1993 they were two different cars.
You could get a headache trying to figure GM's logic. No wonder they lost market share, you would never know what you were getting from year to year.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Hard to say but a car is only worth what the guy standing in line behind you is willing to pay. People go crazy for all things Honda so maybe the dealer is looking to hit a home run with this type of unit. They may get it too since that vehicle would be a favorite of the soccer mom crowd who would be less likely to bargain hard. The dealer might be waiting for an easy sale. :confuse:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I'm guessing that when the Lincoln Town Car was updated for 1990, and got the new 4.6 V-8, that put a hurting on Brougham sales.
Well the TC was Motor Trend's Car of the Year for 1990, I'm sure Cadillac just loved that. Little known fact, 1990 TCs carried over the 5.0, (i guess the 4.6 wasn't ready?). 1991 was the first year for the 4.6 in the TC, 92 for the Vic/Marquis.
They do tend to be forgotten
I suppose, but, I think the fact is many people don't realize how long they were in production. To the untrained eye a 92 Brougham doesn't really look much different than a 79. Really nice examples of Broughams go for good money on Ebay, much more than any similar vintage Town Car.
Once upon a time, the Fleetwood really was a special, upscale car. Throughout most of the '60's, for example, I think the Fleetwood name only applied to the longer wheelbase "Sixty-Special" 4-door sedan and the Fleetwood 75 limousine. The more mass-produced Cadillacs were called Series 62 or DeVille. In 1965, the 62 was replaced by the Calais as the entry-level Caddy.
I think the '67 Eldorado might have technically been called a "Fleetwood" Eldorado, but I'm not sure. If it was, that probably began the watering down of the Fleetwood name.
For 1971, when the big Caddies (and all GM full-sizers) were redesigned, the Calais and DeVille were on a 129.5" wheelbase and offered as a hardtop sedan or coupe. The Fleetwood was offered as a 133" wb pillared sedan with frameless windows or, if that wasn't big enough for you there was the Fleetwood 75, a 151.5" wb monster with frameless front windows, framed aircraft/limo style back doors that wrapped up into the roof a bit, and a quarter window in the C-pillar.
For '77 when they downsized, the Fleetwoods and DeVilles all rode the same shrunken (for the time) 121.5" wb. The Fleetwood had sort of a Vee-shaped B-pillar to add distinction, and nicer interiors. And the 75 was still around, on a 144.5" wheelbase.
I think GM did make a bit of a mistake in the early 90's, when they muddled things up with transferring the Fleetwood name around like they did. IMO Buick was actually a bit worse, with the revival of the Roadmaster. The LeSabre was Buick's mass produced big car, while the Electra/Park Ave was supposed to be their premium flagship sedan. But, when the Roadmaster was introduced, I think it confused a lot of Buick buyers. It was bigger than a Park Ave, and roomier inside, but cheaper. And it had standard V-8 power, something you couldn't get in the Park Ave or LeSabre. Even if the V-8 wasn't necessarily any more powerful or faster than the V-6 in the other cars (especially the supercharged one), a lot of people still equated V-8 with prestige, and that muddled things up.
I'd imagine that once the Roadmaster got the LT-1 for 1994-96, it was even faster than a supercharged Park Ave, so again that took something away from Buick's most prestigious car.
Oh yeah, that's right...I had forgotten that the new Town Car had come out before the 4.6 was ready for it. In a similar note, wasn't it a few years before you could get a 4.6 in the T-bird/Cougar, as well? I think initially they only had a 3.8 V-6 and if you wanted peformance, a 3.8 supercharged, but then after a couple years they offered the 5.0, but then phased it out in favor of the 4.6?
My mother had a 96 with the 3.slow and I so encouraged getting the 4.6. It was a really good car for her though and coming out of a 92 Caravan 4cyl it was a rocket.
The Fox/MN12 body Thunderbirds had so many engines its hard to keep track. I know at one point pre-1988 they had lopo 5.0s available, then for awhile after 1990 you could get the 5.0 HO, then the 4.6 became available.
The Supercoupe always had the supercharged 3.8 and there were even some turbo 4cyls in the 80s.
Well, the Dow, Nasdaq, and SP500 all closed up today, so I should be at the Cadillac dealer right now...but, leave it to my mother to find a way to muddle things up!
I came home after work, and she was across the street at my grandmother's, so I popped in to say hi. That's when she tells me that she and my stepdad are thinking about getting rid of both their '98 Expedition and their '08 Altima, and replacing them with an Escape, which they figure will still get better economy than the Expedition, but should be strong enough to tow their boat.
Well, I'm not really interested in the Expedition, even though it's in good shape, and I think still has under 100,000 miles on it. But, I gotta admit, the Altima has me tempted. It's that no-sale sage green that I find really attractive, sunroof, leather interior. 4-cyl. Has about 40,000 miles on it, which surprised me, because I figured they were putting most of the miles on their ~330,000 '99 Altima.
So, for the time being, that purple Cadillac is on hold, while I think about this...
So, at this point, I have no idea what I want to do!!
Hard to say but a car is only worth what the guy standing in line behind you is willing to pay. People go crazy for all things Honda so maybe the dealer is looking to hit a home run with this type of unit. They may get it too since that vehicle would be a favorite of the soccer mom crowd who would be less likely to bargain hard. The dealer might be waiting for an easy sale.
Good point. Most other shoppers are likely looking at the same vans as their primary, daily drivers, while I'm looking for our "fourth" car to fulfill those several days out of the month we need the space. So the deal I walk away from is probably enticing to others.
Well, we actually started out looking at T&Cs and Routans, figuring they'd offer a better value (which they do). And for that matter, I searched back in these forums to get Q's take on it when he was looking. I got from that that the newer V6 (3.6l?) was far superior. And it seemed to get into a newer model the savings wasn't all that great.
At the end of the day, I like the ride and the interior room in the Honda over the competitors.
I actually like that color on that car. Might not look as good on a 370z but this is an Altima. And 40k miles, how can you pass that up? The 2.5L 4cyl. Puts out about 170 hp. so it should give you enough power without killing your wallet.
The Caddy might feel better on your backside but the Altima will go easier on your wallet. How much do they want for it?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
My mom and stepdad haven't really thought it through yet, as to how much they want for the Altima. Mom asked me to look it up, and doing an Edmund's TMV, I just found values of $11,673 trade-in, $12,976 private party, and $14,350 dealer retail.
I thought it would be worth more than that, but now that I think about it, a couple weeks ago I was trolling our local www.fitzmall.com website, and found a blue '08 (maybe an '09?) Altima, similarly equipped, and with similar miles, and it was around $14,800. And they currently have a white 2010 V-6 sedan with leather/sunroof, well-equipped, only 20,000 miles, for around $21K. So maybe those Edmund's figures are reasonable?
As for a "family price" I dunno. If they made me an offer I couldn't refuse I'd be tempted, as long as they didn't try to guilt me aftewards with "can you help me with this, help me with that, go with me to this place, that place, etc..." Sometimes I still feel a little burned from when they gave me an '86 Monte Carlo back in 1998. It had 179,000 miles on it, but ran well. Well, three months later, with 192K on it, I got t-boned while delivering pizzas. Car was a total, and I ended up in the emergency room, although it was just a precaution. Just shook up, disoriented, adrenaline rush, etc. Well, when I told them what happened, the first thing out of my stepdad's mouth was "Why were you driving THAT car?!" and Mom said "we were hoping you wouldn't use that car to deliver pizzas, and would take care of it so it would last." You'd think "OMG, are you okay?!" would have been slipped in there, somewhere. :confuse:
As, as for why I was driving the Monte? Well, it got 15 mpg delivering pizzas, while the '79 Newport I had at the time got around 12-13, and as much as I drove (13K miles in three months), that was enough to make a difference, even with gas only being around $1.25 or so per gallon. The Monte also took off faster, had a better stereo, less cranky in cold weather, had functioning a/c, was more maneuverable, etc.
I also got my '85 Silverado from them, back in 2002, but Grandmom had actually given it to them back in 1995 or 1996. I paid $1200 for it. Grandmom got a bit miffed about that at first, that they sold me a truck that she gave to them for free, but I explained to her that they did put some money into it, so I think that calmed her down, a bit.
About a year ago, Mom asked me if I'd be interested in her '99 Altima, which at the time was over 300,000 miles (currently around 330K). At first I said no, but then I reconsidered. But, then she asked me what my intentions were for the car. That just sounded a little skeevy to me, and set off a few mental alarms...got me thinking of that '86 Monte Carlo all over again.
My plan would have been to keep it around, let my roommate drive it, I'd drive it every once in awhile, and just use it until something major broke and then retire it. But, I didn't tell her that. I just said that I'd drive it, to save on fuel versus the Park Ave, which is probably what she wanted to hear. And, the more I thought about it, if something happened to the car while my roommate was driving it, and she found out about it, it would be that '86 Monte all over again! And as much as I enjoy the old "Family" skits on the Carol Burnette show, I don't want to re-enact them!
Although, if I got the 2008, I'd be the one driving it, and not my roommate. So maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But, if something ever went wrong with it, I can see my stepdad whining "what did you do to it?!"
So, at this point I'm kinda torn as to what to do. And there's only one thing that's certain. I need to get up and go to the fridge and get a beer! :shades:
You gotta get the Altima. That "666" license plate is worth a couple of thousand by itself.
oh, I just did that in a photo editor. I've done it with a few other pics I've posted of my own cars, although there's also enough un-altered pics floating around, it's probably not worth the bother.
My '85 Silverado's license plate actually does have a "666" in it though. I thought it was only a matter of time before some Satan worshipper stole the plates, but so far, the only fallout from it has been someone writing "Devil", in somewhat stylish lettering, on the tailgate with a black marker. I just noticed it yesterday when I had to go to Home Depot to pick up some stuff and went around back to drop the tailgate. Dunno how long it's been on there. Kinda cute, in a twisted sort of way. I need to take a pic of it before it wears off. :shades:
I love that you thought to photo edit the plate! I don't know how to do such a thing but what a great touch.
My daughter's car (which I actually own but she drives) has a great plate. WTF- 34D. It was just handed to me by an NJ DMV clerk the day I registered the car. I stood there stunned but not too stunned to figure that this was a keeper! At one point I'll need to get a picture....
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Comments
My great-uncle had a 1994 Brougham and replaced it with an identical 1996 Brougham when he heard they were going to quit making them. He kept that car until he died in 2003.
2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/2865276664.html
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
That isn't the dreaded Northstar engine is it? I've heard that they were prone to blow head gaskets which usually cost more to fix than the car was worth. I was looking at a 1997 STS with 105k until the owner told me it needed that repair ($2500). Car was only worth $3k according to Edmunds so I passed.
As to prices, I picked up a 1993 Deville last year with 81k miles for $1200. That was the last year for the old body style and the more reliable 4.9L motor.
The Fleetwood is more upscale but a year later it's the same age as when I bought mine. With gas going through the roof I wouldn't pay more than $3000 no matter how good the condition was. Also, Caddys back then had a ton of electrical issues. I can attest to that. What works when you buy it might not work a month later.
On the positive side, I really love driving the Deville. When you get to a certain age your body appreiates the comfort, room and luxury of a big car.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I turn the traction control off to allow a little wheelspin, and use a bit of momentum.
Though usually the solution is just to take the Subaru and leave the minivan parked. :shades:
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Survivor
Daily Driver
10 footer
20 footer
Also, on a higher milage car what would you look for to determine it's condition--smoke? Noise? Oil leaks? Rough idle?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Yeah, after I posted I looked it up. The Northstar was mainly a 4.6L not a 5.7L.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
Survivor: Unrestored. Condition can vary. Can be rough, but shouldn't have any major rust or rot. Can be driven as is or fairly easily restored.
Daily Driver: Reliable. Condition is completely independent of this. You could theoretically drive a cosmetically horrible car daily as long as it is mechanically sound.
10 footer: A car that looks good from 10 feet away. At 20 feet, you may even think it perfect. Paint is shiny, but does have imperfections that can be seen upon close inspection. No visible rust/rot. Interior is livable.
20 footer: Rougher than the 10 footer. May have very small rust or rot starting in the inconspicuous places like the rockers, under the fenders, or around the windows. Probably needs new carpets and seats and steering wheel recovered, although usable enough as is.
On a higher mileage car, all of what you listed applies. Oil leaks aren't a deal breaker, they just need close scrutiny. Is it easily repaired? Is it minor enough that you could live with it for a while? As for smoke... color matters of course. Blue smoke I'm usually running away from (could be head or could be rings - I don't want to risk it). White smoke will depend on how long it lasts. If it does it all the time, forget it (head gasket or cracked head likely). Black smoke is often a fixable problem without too much hassle. Again, it will depend on exactly when it happens and how much.
Also, how you view a car's condition is completely dependent on your comfort level and skillset. If you are a checkbook mechanic, buy the best example you can find because it will be far cheaper than fixing one up. If you are a body man or have close connections to a body shop. you may want to find a mechanically sound car that needs cosmetic work. If, like me, you have NO skills with body work but can do just about anything mechanically, you'll want to find a cosmetically perfect car that might need some tinkering.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The Northstars are to be avoided in those years. Besides the head gasket problems they would start to leak oil...BAD between where the halves of the split blocks came together. The dealers call that " The Northstar leak".
It's a 4000.00 (at least) job to fix and quite often, it'll total an otherwise nice car.
I heard that Cadillac finally got on top of this in 2000-2001. Maybe, maybe not?
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
I've always been a big leery when it comes to Northstar-equipped cars as well although, as you mentioned, the newer models are supposed to be better. And I've heard that the weaker 275 hp version is better still, when it comes to long-term durability.
I think one thing that appeals to me about that Fleetwood is that it's sort of a simplistic way of making a luxury car. More like how Chrysler used to to back in the day, compared to GM. Whereas a Cadillac usually had very little in common with a Chevy, a New Yorker or Imperial really wasn't much different from a Plymouth. Just larger, bigger standard engine, nicer interior, and more power stuff standard.
So I see that Fleetwood as sort of a more modern version of my '79 New Yorker. My NYer is essentially a copcar in a fine tailored suit. That Fleetwood is basically a copcar ready to go a'pimping! In many respects, it's more Chevy than Caddy. Big, nice and luxurious, but not overly fussy and complex.
As of noon EST congrats on your new Caddy.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Thanks for the definitions.
Using that criteria I have:
A 10 footer survivor--Corvette
A 20 footer daily driver--Caddy
A 100 footer hooptie--Van :sick:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
You must just have a bias agains voorhees.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
once you are up to a 20 footer, who can tell that far away?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
In classic car terms, that's what a survivor is. And many car shows have a survivor class, so that a nice, unrestored, original, yet not perfect car doesn't have to compete with one that just went through a $100K+ restoration.
But, in just everday old-car terms, I don't think it really means much. It hasn't been junked, crushed, parted out, or rusted to oblivion, so it survived. How well it survived though, is anybody's guess!
Yes, but yours was a Deville with the Northstar of Doom not a Fleetwood!
I can't have too much against Voorhees I was born there :P
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
I thought that the '96 still had the good engine though, so sorry about that.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
So in the last 24 hours, I've sat down to negotiate on three different Odysseys at three different dealerships, and they've all let me walk out, so either I'm overly optimistic or (more likely), simply need to be more patient.
On my 2010 CX-9 Grand Touring (no additional options, 37k miles), I've had trade-in offers ranging from $19k to $23k; qbrozen thinks there should be room to go up to $24k. I have a hard time believing I could privately sell it for much more than $24k, maybe $25k, so trade seems to be good way to go.
1st deal - '07 Ody EX-L w/RES, 58k miles. Got to a $4k difference (to my benefit) ($19k for Ody, $23k trade allowance). I said I'd do it for another $500 and they let me go.
2nd deal - '08 Ody EX-L w/RES, 47k miles. Got to a $1k difference ($21.5k for Ody, $22.5k for trade). I wanted $2k more (figured their Ody was worth $1k more than the 1st deal) and they let me go.
3rd deal - '07 Ody Touring (Nav & RES), 58k miles. Got to a $2k difference - wanted a deal like the 1st one (another $2k) and they let me go.
We'll see if anyone calls back, but I'm not really expecting it. Any suggestions on tactics, or input on whether I'm being too aggressive?
Thanks!
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
anyway, as you are finding, there are plenty of them out there, but they are popular. Just keep trying is my advice. Its not like you HAVE to trade.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Wonder what a real market price on something like this should be anyway?
http://southjersey.craigslist.org/ctd/2866957793.html
And yes, i really need to stay off of CL for a while...
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Cadillac went to majority FWD starting in 1985, when the shrunken FWD DeVille and Fleetwood cars came out. They were designed around 1982, when fuel prices were high and strict CAFE regulations were looming, but as it got closer to introduction time, gas was cheap and flowing again, and CAFE seemed to be backing off, and people were flocking back to bigger cars in droves. So, as a stopgap, in 1985 Cadillac kept their RWD model around and called it Fleetwood Brougham.
Those FWD cars were supposed to come out in 1984, but GM hadn't worked all the bugs out of their 4-speed transverse automatic, so that delayed introduction to April 1984, as an early '85. Cadillac sold about 150,000 of the FWD DeVille/Fleetwoods in that extra long model year, compared to about 60,000 Fleetwood Broughams, which just had a normal model year. It sold about 50K units in 1986, 65K in '87, ~50K in '88, and ~40K in '89. For 1990, it was called simply "Brougham", and sales fell to around 33K. For 1991 that fell to 27K, and only 14K for 1992.
I'm guessing that when the Lincoln Town Car was updated for 1990, and got the new 4.6 V-8, that put a hurting on Brougham sales.
For 1993, the big RWD Caddy went aero, and adopted the body style of the Caprice and Roadmaster, and was called simply "Fleetwood" rather than "Brougham". Sales rebounded a bit, to 33K, but then slipped back to about 27K for 1994, which was the year it got the 260 hp LT1 350. They sold another 27K in 1995 and only 15,000 in the abbreviated 1996 model year, after which GM decided that the plant used to churn out Caprices, Roadmasters, and Fleetwoods would be more profitable making 4-door Tahoes and Yukons.
After 1984 the RWD Brougham/Fleetwoods became somewhat low-volume cars, compared to the likes of the FWD DeVille/Fleetwood, and the Lincoln Town Car. The FWD Caddies and the Town Cars were usually good for 100-160,000 units per year, making the RWD Caddies somewhat scarce, in comparison. They do tend to be forgotten, and I think switching the name around from Fleetwood Brougham to just Brougham and then back to Fleetwood means that the later ones, especially, tend to slip the mind.
And you're absolutely right - I don't NEED to make the move at all, which is why I'm not having a problem walking away from these good, but not great, deals. And that's a good thing.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
Me too but I believe that for 1993 the Fleetwood went with the RWD platform used by Caprice. I know my 93 Deville is FWD an about 1000 pounds lighter. It seem over the years GM would alternate between making the Fleetwood more like the Deville and then completely different. I think at one point Fleetwood was just an upgrade on the Deville but in 1993 they were two different cars.
You could get a headache trying to figure GM's logic. No wonder they lost market share, you would never know what you were getting from year to year.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Hard to say but a car is only worth what the guy standing in line behind you is willing to pay. People go crazy for all things Honda so maybe the dealer is looking to hit a home run with this type of unit. They may get it too since that vehicle would be a favorite of the soccer mom crowd who would be less likely to bargain hard. The dealer might be waiting for an easy sale. :confuse:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Well the TC was Motor Trend's Car of the Year for 1990, I'm sure Cadillac just loved that. Little known fact, 1990 TCs carried over the 5.0, (i guess the 4.6 wasn't ready?). 1991 was the first year for the 4.6 in the TC, 92 for the Vic/Marquis.
They do tend to be forgotten
I suppose, but, I think the fact is many people don't realize how long they were in production. To the untrained eye a 92 Brougham doesn't really look much different than a 79. Really nice examples of Broughams go for good money on Ebay, much more than any similar vintage Town Car.
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2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I think the '67 Eldorado might have technically been called a "Fleetwood" Eldorado, but I'm not sure. If it was, that probably began the watering down of the Fleetwood name.
For 1971, when the big Caddies (and all GM full-sizers) were redesigned, the Calais and DeVille were on a 129.5" wheelbase and offered as a hardtop sedan or coupe. The Fleetwood was offered as a 133" wb pillared sedan with frameless windows or, if that wasn't big enough for you there was the Fleetwood 75, a 151.5" wb monster with frameless front windows, framed aircraft/limo style back doors that wrapped up into the roof a bit, and a quarter window in the C-pillar.
For '77 when they downsized, the Fleetwoods and DeVilles all rode the same shrunken (for the time) 121.5" wb. The Fleetwood had sort of a Vee-shaped B-pillar to add distinction, and nicer interiors. And the 75 was still around, on a 144.5" wheelbase.
I think GM did make a bit of a mistake in the early 90's, when they muddled things up with transferring the Fleetwood name around like they did. IMO Buick was actually a bit worse, with the revival of the Roadmaster. The LeSabre was Buick's mass produced big car, while the Electra/Park Ave was supposed to be their premium flagship sedan. But, when the Roadmaster was introduced, I think it confused a lot of Buick buyers. It was bigger than a Park Ave, and roomier inside, but cheaper. And it had standard V-8 power, something you couldn't get in the Park Ave or LeSabre. Even if the V-8 wasn't necessarily any more powerful or faster than the V-6 in the other cars (especially the supercharged one), a lot of people still equated V-8 with prestige, and that muddled things up.
I'd imagine that once the Roadmaster got the LT-1 for 1994-96, it was even faster than a supercharged Park Ave, so again that took something away from Buick's most prestigious car.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The Fox/MN12 body Thunderbirds had so many engines its hard to keep track. I know at one point pre-1988 they had lopo 5.0s available, then for awhile after 1990 you could get the 5.0 HO, then the 4.6 became available.
The Supercoupe always had the supercharged 3.8 and there were even some turbo 4cyls in the 80s.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
As of noon EST congrats on your new Caddy.
Well, the Dow, Nasdaq, and SP500 all closed up today, so I should be at the Cadillac dealer right now...but, leave it to my mother to find a way to muddle things up!
I came home after work, and she was across the street at my grandmother's, so I popped in to say hi. That's when she tells me that she and my stepdad are thinking about getting rid of both their '98 Expedition and their '08 Altima, and replacing them with an Escape, which they figure will still get better economy than the Expedition, but should be strong enough to tow their boat.
Well, I'm not really interested in the Expedition, even though it's in good shape, and I think still has under 100,000 miles on it. But, I gotta admit, the Altima has me tempted. It's that no-sale sage green that I find really attractive, sunroof, leather interior. 4-cyl. Has about 40,000 miles on it, which surprised me, because I figured they were putting most of the miles on their ~330,000 '99 Altima.
So, for the time being, that purple Cadillac is on hold, while I think about this...
So, at this point, I have no idea what I want to do!!
Not at all. I think that's a great idea but usually Honda people feel Chrysler's are beneath them.
Aren't they discontinuing the T & C? If so I bet he could get a new one for the price of a used Honda.
But it's not our money.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Good point. Most other shoppers are likely looking at the same vans as their primary, daily drivers, while I'm looking for our "fourth" car to fulfill those several days out of the month we need the space. So the deal I walk away from is probably enticing to others.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
At the end of the day, I like the ride and the interior room in the Honda over the competitors.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
I actually like that color on that car. Might not look as good on a 370z but this is an Altima. And 40k miles, how can you pass that up? The 2.5L 4cyl. Puts out about 170 hp. so it should give you enough power without killing your wallet.
The Caddy might feel better on your backside but the Altima will go easier on your wallet. How much do they want for it?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I would have been interested in that when I was recently looking, but probably a bit too pricey still.
but, certainly a better DD than a 94 fleetwood!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I thought it would be worth more than that, but now that I think about it, a couple weeks ago I was trolling our local www.fitzmall.com website, and found a blue '08 (maybe an '09?) Altima, similarly equipped, and with similar miles, and it was around $14,800. And they currently have a white 2010 V-6 sedan with leather/sunroof, well-equipped, only 20,000 miles, for around $21K. So maybe those Edmund's figures are reasonable?
As for a "family price" I dunno. If they made me an offer I couldn't refuse I'd be tempted, as long as they didn't try to guilt me aftewards with "can you help me with this, help me with that, go with me to this place, that place, etc..." Sometimes I still feel a little burned from when they gave me an '86 Monte Carlo back in 1998. It had 179,000 miles on it, but ran well. Well, three months later, with 192K on it, I got t-boned while delivering pizzas. Car was a total, and I ended up in the emergency room, although it was just a precaution. Just shook up, disoriented, adrenaline rush, etc. Well, when I told them what happened, the first thing out of my stepdad's mouth was "Why were you driving THAT car?!" and Mom said "we were hoping you wouldn't use that car to deliver pizzas, and would take care of it so it would last." You'd think "OMG, are you okay?!" would have been slipped in there, somewhere. :confuse:
As, as for why I was driving the Monte? Well, it got 15 mpg delivering pizzas, while the '79 Newport I had at the time got around 12-13, and as much as I drove (13K miles in three months), that was enough to make a difference, even with gas only being around $1.25 or so per gallon. The Monte also took off faster, had a better stereo, less cranky in cold weather, had functioning a/c, was more maneuverable, etc.
I also got my '85 Silverado from them, back in 2002, but Grandmom had actually given it to them back in 1995 or 1996. I paid $1200 for it. Grandmom got a bit miffed about that at first, that they sold me a truck that she gave to them for free, but I explained to her that they did put some money into it, so I think that calmed her down, a bit.
About a year ago, Mom asked me if I'd be interested in her '99 Altima, which at the time was over 300,000 miles (currently around 330K). At first I said no, but then I reconsidered. But, then she asked me what my intentions were for the car. That just sounded a little skeevy to me, and set off a few mental alarms...got me thinking of that '86 Monte Carlo all over again.
My plan would have been to keep it around, let my roommate drive it, I'd drive it every once in awhile, and just use it until something major broke and then retire it. But, I didn't tell her that. I just said that I'd drive it, to save on fuel versus the Park Ave, which is probably what she wanted to hear. And, the more I thought about it, if something happened to the car while my roommate was driving it, and she found out about it, it would be that '86 Monte all over again! And as much as I enjoy the old "Family" skits on the Carol Burnette show, I don't want to re-enact them!
Although, if I got the 2008, I'd be the one driving it, and not my roommate. So maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But, if something ever went wrong with it, I can see my stepdad whining "what did you do to it?!"
So, at this point I'm kinda torn as to what to do. And there's only one thing that's certain. I need to get up and go to the fridge and get a beer! :shades:
oh, I just did that in a photo editor. I've done it with a few other pics I've posted of my own cars, although there's also enough un-altered pics floating around, it's probably not worth the bother.
My '85 Silverado's license plate actually does have a "666" in it though. I thought it was only a matter of time before some Satan worshipper stole the plates, but so far, the only fallout from it has been someone writing "Devil", in somewhat stylish lettering, on the tailgate with a black marker. I just noticed it yesterday when I had to go to Home Depot to pick up some stuff and went around back to drop the tailgate. Dunno how long it's been on there. Kinda cute, in a twisted sort of way. I need to take a pic of it before it wears off. :shades:
My daughter's car (which I actually own but she drives) has a great plate. WTF- 34D. It was just handed to me by an NJ DMV clerk the day I registered the car. I stood there stunned but not too stunned to figure that this was a keeper! At one point I'll need to get a picture....
You can always try to sell it yourself but I don't think you'll like the results.
The dealers simply don't want it.
LOL! I bet you daughter gets plenty of attention driving that car. :surprise:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible