Are the new hybrids by Honda and Toyota at the same level of reliability as regular Honda's and Toyota's?
There seem to be many more complaints for hybrids than the non-hybrids of Toyota and Honda. Maybe the techs. simply do not know how to work on them.
quote-Bruce of Baltimore (1/26/02): Prius is one of the most troublesome cars I've ever owned. Over the year I own it I had to take it to the dealership over 10 times for major repairs. The service was dreadful. The same problem needed to be repaired over, and over and over...-end I discovered many complains similar to the one above when I did a simple search for problems. Not encouraging.
I haven't heard of hybrids having more problems, actually have heard the opposite (a Honda is a Honda etc) I don't have a hybrid yet, next one will be (not sure what brand) I try to keep my vehicles for 6 to 8 years (~100 K miles) which should be no problem for a hybrid. As for the above when you take a vehicle (hybrid or otherwise) back for the same thing over & over that should be a hint.
Well if it was the same problem "over and over' again then chances are that the dealer wasn't able to pinpoint the problem (I assume that it deals with an ECU), thus it kept re-ocurring.
Actually, It appears they could not repeat the problem. and did not have any ECU codes to state what the problem was. Without either of those a problem is much more difficult to diagnose and fix.
I am glad you finally got your problem fixed and have not had any reoccurences,
I think no matter who the manufacturer is they would not want the bad publicity on such a high profile vehicle. They will try their best to keep it running. I can believe the training is not up to what it should be. That is the norm in most high tech fields these days. Only train people if you have to...
Over a $1,000,000,000 spent. Not sure how much was our tax money..Actually it sounds like CARB was instrumental in messing up the EV1 project. Something to do with chargers. It is a shame to see that much hardware junked before it has been given a chance.
Actually I was looking for a used EV1 to play with, and stumbled onto that site. I did not realize they were all leased from GM. I think the leases are all about finished and there was no keeping them after. So all the EV1's will be returned to GM for disposal. Also it took $2000 or more to set up a charging station at your home. So they had some real problems to overcome. I doubt the HCH is that bad. I have not driven one. I would be more likely to buy the CNG version of the Civic. Except I just do not want a car that small. I'm holding out for a high MPG PU of any size.
Just my obnoxious humor Gary. I do remember that ALL of those cars were indeed leased. Hard to imagine that they are just going to destroy them! I also didn't realize that you needed a $2000 charging station either. Thanks for that link too!
I supppose the same thing can be said about diesels. Your corner mechanic really can't work on them. With that said, I always bring my cars to the dealer. Especially when you own a Lexus, Audi, or Mercedes (which I have). For now, my Prius will only see this inside of a Toyota dealership. Probably a LOT less than if I owned a VW TDI.
quote- I supppose the same thing can be said about diesels. Your corner mechanic really can't work on them.-end
Your statement could not be further from the truth. Diesel engines are easy to work on. Many diesel owners do their own maint. and repairs due to the simplicity of a diesel. If you have the skills to work on a gasoline engine, you can work on a diesel.
What repairs require a specialist? Be specific please. Who is selling a TDI for a Prius? How many people? What does this speak volumes of? Or is this just a fairy tale?
jason- In post #19 why was it necessary to veer off topic and make a false statement about diesels and make a negative comment about TDI? My previous post was not a personal attack and in no way directed toward you. By posting negative comments directed at the type of vehicle I own when TDI and diesel are not the subject of the topic I can only conclude you are attempting to inflame the discussion.
Hybrids are complex systems that are new. Until they are more common the skills to repair them will be rare.
"What repairs require a specialist? Be specific please"
How about the Turbo? How about 30,000 PSI computer controlled common rail direct injection system? How about complex aftertreatment and exhaust filters? Remember, when the modern diesel engines arrive in U.S with LSD, almost everything will be new, from fuel, engine, to exhaust. Modern diesels will be more alien than gas-electric hybrids.
What is different with HSD hybrid is the simplified hardware. A number of many different jobs such as starter, alternator, CVT, electric propulsion, regen braking, etc... are consolidated into one Hybrid Transaxle unit. HT is also extremely simple and is about the size of a traditional transmission.
Dennis replied... no reponse necessary. I am not attacking the TDI but merely using it as a point of reference. You seem to forget I am pro TDI as long as it uses the new fuel. I'll take a chance on its reliability as I usually have good luck with cars. NEVER had a lemon yet!!
All new vehicles will be complex and expensive to fix if something *major* goes bad, regardless of being a hybrid or a diesel or a gas engine.
For hybrids,probably the only alternative will be some type of modular swap-out at the hybrid dealer. I doubt the dealer will be disassembling and rebuilding major systems on hybrids.
Of course, the clever home mechanic can do certain things on a new car, depending on skill level, but I don't see any of them taking apart major componentry anymore like in the old days.
As for reliability, it's the same answer as always -- "it depends" in the case of a diesel (which make of diesel and how it is maintained), and it's "nobody knows yet" for the hybrids, as most haven't yet accumulated enough miles/time to test the systems thoroughly and plot replacement costs for batteries, etc.
If Bruce had the Prius for over a year when he wrote his message and since he wrote the message in January, 2002, he is referring to a Prius 2001. The new Prius model version starting in 2004 is very different than the 2001 so his message is not relevant today (2004).
"I supppose the same thing can be said about diesels. Your corner mechanic really can't work on them."
There are plenty of diesel mechanics. They work on the tractor-trailers and diesel-powered farm trucks.
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RELIABILITY: The only difference between a Civic HX and a Civic Hybrid is the battery. In all other respects they are the same... even the transmission. So you can expect the Hybrid to last as long as any other Honda car (i.e. forever).
But what about the battery? That's the great mystery, so I advise using my approach:
The only difference between a Civic HX and a Civic Hybrid is the battery. In all other respects they are the same
How about the electric motor, regen equipment, charging equipment, computerization to keep it all going correctly. IMA as simple as it is compared to HSD still adds over 300 lbs of complex equipment. That is about $10 a pound. The price of filet mignon at Costco.
electric motor/generator - These last forever. I don't even consider this an issue. I've got motors that are over 50 years old and work as good as day one.
computerization - same as any other Civic
.
Nope. The REAL issue is the battery. How long will it last?
I keep my cars for 10years. My HCH will have about 300K miles. I expect the battery to go flat before then. When it does I'll have a few choices;
1. OEM Whole pack replacement. A costly repair for a car with...say 200K miles.
2. Check junk yards for used, guaranteed whole packs at a discount.
3. With the popularity of hybrids a testing system could come available for each individual battery cell. Failed cells could be replaced with new or guaranteed used ones.
4. Drive it with less performance. Personally, I'd likely still beat the EPA of the car.
4 (continue driving without the battery) is the option I would choose. At 300,000 miles the engine is near-dead anyway. No sense installing a new battery at 300,000 and then have the engine die at 310,000.
You can't fix any modern vehicle yourself...and most independent mechanics can't fix them either. The dealers want it this way. I had to replace an electronic throttle module on a 2000 Volvo, and even though the part was relatively easy to get to, if I'd replaced it the car would not have run because the software must be downloaded into the computer at the time of replacement.
Comparing a modern automatic transmission to the THS/HSD system I know which one I expect will last the longest...the simplicity of design of the mechanical components in the hybrid drive make mechanical failure much less likely.
After 55,000 on our 2002 Prius we've had no issues except for the utterly mediocre Bridgestone tires.
...is that some of these hybrid systems will be so complex that the dealer techs won't be able to fix them either!
And any trend which forces me to go to the dealership for service is a BAD THING. For the 30K checkup on my car, my dealer wanted $550. My local, trusted mechanic did it for $250.
any trend which forces me to go to the dealership for service is a BAD THING.
I totally agree. The sooner you can be weaned from the dealer the better. It took us too long to find someone competent to work on our Lexus. That would be the biggest drawback to a hybrid, finding anyone outside the dealership to work on them. And they will need work if you keep them past the warranty.
Question: is Toyota subsidizing the maintenance on the hybrids, because I've never seen a true 30K checkup (with a large list of checked items) done for $45. On any car.
Toyota paid for the first five scheduled maintenances for Prius I. Maintenance interval is 7500mi. If you look at what's recommended in the owners manual there just isn't that much to do. While Prius is a very complex car from a software and design perspective, the actual mechanics are fairly simple. Many of the most complicated mechanical subsystems on ordinary cars don't exist.
Most Prius service calls will be oil change, rotate tires and fill the washer fluid. Probably the most complicated activity for routine maintenance is replacing the coolant, since there are two coolant systems to drain and fill.
The truth is most dealer service departments pay their way by selling "packages" of services that are not required, and sometimes are not recommended by the automaker (example: My former Volvo dealer liked to sell you a "fuel injector service" which consisted of dumping a bottle of Techron in the fuel tank for $15. This in spite of a TSB from Volvo advising against the use of any additive in engine oil or fuel).
I've got 15K on my 04 Prius and have been back to my Lakeshore Toyota Dealer, IN for three oil changes and three minor recalls (computer check-brke lt.- fuel nozzle & metering gauge). This is , by far, the best relationship I've ever had with a dealer. Discount pricing on services and incentives to come back for general maintenance have been the norm. I've been stung by "other" dealers for ridiculus charges before and have learned their game. Finding an honest and reliable dealer is always a must. It's the same with a car too.
I've found the car (Prius) and the dealer that have made life just a heck of a lot easier. Even their prices for maintenance parts have been more than reasonable. As to the Prius, I think the only downside to sevice is that you have no choice but to go to Toyota exclusively. There may be exceptions but the bottom line is ....It's
a special car for now and only time and technology will change this scenario.
Culliganman ( My Dealer's My Friend & My Car Is My Prize)
quote gagrice-" know first hand the feeling of being left stranded by the road with a broken down NEW vehicle. It was 30 years before I bought another Toyota and that was a PU that was also very high maintenance."-end quote
So now we see the root of the problem !! Here is a poster who is so incredibly stubborn to the point that he waits 30 YEARS before buying a Toyota because ONE new car left him stranded.....
Now we can see why the hesitance to buy Hybrids - he doesn't want to buy one, get stranded, and be forced to wait 30 MORE YEARS before he tries the technology again !!
And yet, he owns a 1990 Lexus, which was in only it's SECOND YEAR as a car line in 1990.....
(OK I'm confused again !!)
Gary, explain to us why you can risk a $35,000 Lexus (a Toyota product) and are unwilling to "risk" a $25,000 Hybrid 14 years later?
And yet, he owns a 1990 Lexus, which was in only it's SECOND YEAR as a car line in 1990.
Very good question. We were not married when my wife bought that Lexus. If we had been together I would have talked her into staying with the Mercedes and Porsche that she sold when she bought the Lexus. In fact if they had not come out with a suspension upgrade for free the first year she would have taken it back. She has spent about $18k in routine maintenance and repairs on the LS400. That is too much in my opinion. They charge 100 bucks for an oil change. It is a good car, but expensive to maintain. Especially at the Lexus dealership. I won't know until my Suburban is 15 years old if it is as expensive to maintain. It was not for the first 7 years. I had a 6 year 75k mile B-B warranty that was a waste of $1100.
...until Toyota stops subsidizing the maintenance. The sorry fact is that most dealer shops charge significantly more than their independant competitors. Now, I doubt you'll be hitting $18K, but you may be paying 50% more than someone who can go to an independant.
no hybrid could EVER be expected to be that expensive to maintain, could it?
I would hope not. One early poster claimed his Prius had $15k in repair covered by warranty. It would get to the point of getting rid of the car before you would spend that kind of money. The Lexus and other luxury cars are just expensive to get serviced. They depend on buyer loyalty & deep pockets to keep them coming to the dealership.
18 grand in repairs? WOW... I hope they weren't taking advantage of your wife. That seems pretty steep. As far as $100 oil changes go, that is a ripoff. My dealer charged me $39.95 for my RX300 oil changes. That car was EXTREMELY reliable compared to the other cars I've owned.
That car was EXTREMELY reliable compared to the other cars I've owned.
How would you know if you only had it 3 years? I had NO problems with the last 4 Chevy trucks I owned. I only kept them 3 years and sold them. This Suburban is the longest I have owned a vehicle. Lexus of El Cajon charged $109 for the last oil change before I found an independent repair shop. They give you a big printout and tell you that your car that is worth about $4000 needs $5900 worth of work. Our Independent fixed everything for $1100. Lexus is a rip-off for service any way you would like to spell it....
After I bought a motorhome I found out what overcharging was all about. R.V. Dealers (some, no many) are notorious at charging outragous money for some of the simplist services. I just kept looking till I found one that was fair and reasonable. Just like my local LAKESHORE TOYOTA DEALER that has been more than fair. They have litteraly been that good. Culliganman(lovin it)
Comments
There seem to be many more complaints for hybrids than the non-hybrids of Toyota and Honda. Maybe the techs. simply do not know how to work on them.
quote-Bruce of Baltimore (1/26/02):
Prius is one of the most troublesome cars I've ever owned. Over the year I own it I had to take it to the dealership over 10 times for major repairs. The service was dreadful. The same problem needed to be repaired over, and over and over...-end I discovered many complains similar to the one above when I did a simple search for problems. Not encouraging.
A better question is "If a new hybrid has a problem in an area w/o a dealer that sells hybrids, who can service them?".
I am glad you finally got your problem fixed and have not had any reoccurences,
YMMV,
MidCow
This is why GM is backing off of the hybrid program.
http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/031219/jpg/after2.htm
What happens when out of warranty? I would not want to find out.
I supppose the same thing can be said about diesels. Your corner mechanic really can't work on them.-end
Your statement could not be further from the truth. Diesel engines are easy to work on. Many diesel owners do their own maint. and repairs due to the simplicity of a diesel. If you have the skills to work on a gasoline engine, you can work on a diesel.
jason- In post #19 why was it necessary to veer off topic and make a false statement about diesels and make a negative comment about TDI? My previous post was not a personal attack and in no way directed toward you. By posting negative comments directed at the type of vehicle I own when TDI and diesel are not the subject of the topic I can only conclude you are attempting to inflame the discussion.
Hybrids are complex systems that are new. Until they are more common the skills to repair them will be rare.
How about the Turbo? How about 30,000 PSI computer controlled common rail direct injection system? How about complex aftertreatment and exhaust filters? Remember, when the modern diesel engines arrive in U.S with LSD, almost everything will be new, from fuel, engine, to exhaust. Modern diesels will be more alien than gas-electric hybrids.
What is different with HSD hybrid is the simplified hardware. A number of many different jobs such as starter, alternator, CVT, electric propulsion, regen braking, etc... are consolidated into one Hybrid Transaxle unit. HT is also extremely simple and is about the size of a traditional transmission.
.
.
Dennis
3-4pm EST
noon-1pm PST
Hybrid Chat Room
For hybrids,probably the only alternative will be some type of modular swap-out at the hybrid dealer. I doubt the dealer will be disassembling and rebuilding major systems on hybrids.
Of course, the clever home mechanic can do certain things on a new car, depending on skill level, but I don't see any of them taking apart major componentry anymore like in the old days.
As for reliability, it's the same answer as always -- "it depends" in the case of a diesel (which make of diesel and how it is maintained), and it's "nobody knows yet" for the hybrids, as most haven't yet accumulated enough miles/time to test the systems thoroughly and plot replacement costs for batteries, etc.
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/103708/arti- cle.html
There are plenty of diesel mechanics. They work on the tractor-trailers and diesel-powered farm trucks.
.
RELIABILITY:
The only difference between a Civic HX and a Civic Hybrid is the battery. In all other respects they are the same... even the transmission. So you can expect the Hybrid to last as long as any other Honda car (i.e. forever).
But what about the battery? That's the great mystery, so I advise using my approach:
- Use the battery minimally.
Troy
How about the electric motor, regen equipment, charging equipment, computerization to keep it all going correctly. IMA as simple as it is compared to HSD still adds over 300 lbs of complex equipment. That is about $10 a pound. The price of filet mignon at Costco.
computerization - same as any other Civic
.
Nope. The REAL issue is the battery. How long will it last?
1. OEM Whole pack replacement. A costly repair for a car with...say 200K miles.
2. Check junk yards for used, guaranteed whole packs at a discount.
3. With the popularity of hybrids a testing system could come available for each individual battery cell. Failed cells could be replaced with new or guaranteed used ones.
4. Drive it with less performance. Personally, I'd likely still beat the EPA of the car.
troy
Comparing a modern automatic transmission to the THS/HSD system I know which one I expect will last the longest...the simplicity of design of the mechanical components in the hybrid drive make mechanical failure much less likely.
After 55,000 on our 2002 Prius we've had no issues except for the utterly mediocre Bridgestone tires.
And any trend which forces me to go to the dealership for service is a BAD THING. For the 30K checkup on my car, my dealer wanted $550. My local, trusted mechanic did it for $250.
I totally agree. The sooner you can be weaned from the dealer the better. It took us too long to find someone competent to work on our Lexus. That would be the biggest drawback to a hybrid, finding anyone outside the dealership to work on them. And they will need work if you keep them past the warranty.
Next question?
If that is oil, filter and lube with a list of items to check. I get that on my Suburban at a Chevy dealer I have never bought a car from for $21.99
Maybe what's really going on is that the Prius doesn't require the large checklist until 35-40K.
Either way, I flat out don't believe that a real "30K" check could be $45. The mechanic hours alone would be 3 times that.
"checkouts" are how dealers do not needed work & pad their pockets with your money.
troy
Most Prius service calls will be oil change, rotate tires and fill the washer fluid. Probably the most complicated activity for routine maintenance is replacing the coolant, since there are two coolant systems to drain and fill.
The truth is most dealer service departments pay their way by selling "packages" of services that are not required, and sometimes are not recommended by the automaker (example: My former Volvo dealer liked to sell you a "fuel injector service" which consisted of dumping a bottle of Techron in the fuel tank for $15. This in spite of a TSB from Volvo advising against the use of any additive in engine oil or fuel).
I've found the car (Prius) and the dealer that have made life just a heck of a lot easier. Even their prices for maintenance parts have been more than reasonable. As to the Prius, I think the only downside to sevice is that you have no choice but to go to Toyota exclusively. There may be exceptions but the bottom line is ....It's
a special car for now and only time and technology will change this scenario.
Culliganman ( My Dealer's My Friend & My Car Is My Prize)
So now we see the root of the problem !! Here is a poster who is so incredibly stubborn to the point that he waits 30 YEARS before buying a Toyota because ONE new car left him stranded.....
Now we can see why the hesitance to buy Hybrids - he doesn't want to buy one, get stranded, and be forced to wait 30 MORE YEARS before he tries the technology again !!
And yet, he owns a 1990 Lexus, which was in only it's SECOND YEAR as a car line in 1990.....
(OK I'm confused again !!)
Gary, explain to us why you can risk a $35,000 Lexus (a Toyota product) and are unwilling to "risk" a $25,000 Hybrid 14 years later?
Very good question. We were not married when my wife bought that Lexus. If we had been together I would have talked her into staying with the Mercedes and Porsche that she sold when she bought the Lexus. In fact if they had not come out with a suspension upgrade for free the first year she would have taken it back. She has spent about $18k in routine maintenance and repairs on the LS400. That is too much in my opinion. They charge 100 bucks for an oil change. It is a good car, but expensive to maintain. Especially at the Lexus dealership. I won't know until my Suburban is 15 years old if it is as expensive to maintain. It was not for the first 7 years. I had a 6 year 75k mile B-B warranty that was a waste of $1100.
And about the $18K in maintenance, no hybrid could EVER be expected to be that expensive to maintain, could it?
I would hope not. One early poster claimed his Prius had $15k in repair covered by warranty. It would get to the point of getting rid of the car before you would spend that kind of money. The Lexus and other luxury cars are just expensive to get serviced. They depend on buyer loyalty & deep pockets to keep them coming to the dealership.
How would you know if you only had it 3 years? I had NO problems with the last 4 Chevy trucks I owned. I only kept them 3 years and sold them. This Suburban is the longest I have owned a vehicle. Lexus of El Cajon charged $109 for the last oil change before I found an independent repair shop. They give you a big printout and tell you that your car that is worth about $4000 needs $5900 worth of work. Our Independent fixed everything for $1100. Lexus is a rip-off for service any way you would like to spell it....
Culliganman(lovin it)