Legacy GT Limited vs. Acura TSX and TL
Seems like a viable comparison for performance and style. The Legacy GT Limited is not quite as luxurious as the TSX and TL, but performs just as well, if not better than either. It is also close in size to both.
Interestingly, the Legacy GT Limited fits right in between the two cars in price.
Interestingly, the Legacy GT Limited fits right in between the two cars in price.
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The TSX and the GT both have a 105.1" wheelbase and are priced in the same neighborhood, so yes, I'd say say they're a fair competitor.
Bob
Coincidentally, AWD usually costs about $2 grand. ;-)
-juice
AWD becomes an ever increasingly important factor as the horsepower rises, as FWD has trouble handling high-HP vehicles, resulting in torque steer. Several magazines have commented on that in regards to the TL. Not sure if the the TSX has enough power for that to be a problem yet.
Bob
I was just trying to get peoples comments comparing the three.
Like I said - they are close:
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessio- - nid=AkcN1tH67goObynEaslV1PPSWf4sRIXNVnhtnTUvUtQa4lfopDAT!-1216595- - 036?styleid=100278144&styleid=100396965&styleid=100358503- - &maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=specs
Pricing TSX Legacy TL
MSRP $26,490 $28,495 $32,850
Invoice $24,147 $26,188 $29,937
Dimensions are comparible as well, all the way down to the gas tank.
Too bad Acura/Honda don't bring over their estate version of the TSX (European Accord).
-Ian
My position on this subject: I love Subarus. I have purchased 4 in the last 12 years. Sometime soon, I will be needing to replace #3 - my fully loaded 99 GT LTD 30th with 105k relatively trouble free miles. The few problems would probably be catagorized as 'dealer related nusiance' issues.
I have been holding off for two reasons. First, to pay off the 03 Outback. Second, for the arrival of the 05 GT.
Given the reliability and enjoyment of my current vehicle, I would have drop dead replaced my GT LTD with another GT LTD. Until I saw a brand new grey TL in the parking lot at work, and started researching.
Once the pricing of the GT was available I started my comparison. I found the TL to be larger, may perform equally (270hp vs 250hp), have more features, and cost more. The TSX cost less, has more features, and may not perform as well (200hp vs 250hp).
IMO, all are very nice looking vehicles, although I would have to say that the TL is certainly the best of the three. The TSX is the best value. The GT will probably outhandle both. [disclaimer on] I have not yet driven the GT. As a matter of fact, I have purposely stayed far away from the dealer, as I may buy on the spot. [disclaimer off]
AWD might not be as big as a factor as in the past. DW is not working, and I have taken to using the Outback in bad weather and on weekends with the family. The GT is basically used for my 90 mile round trip to work.
Finally, is service after the sale. I believe that my local dealer has lost touch with their core customers. The few repairs under warrantee (I did the 7/100) were somewhat painful. 5 trips before an intermittant speedometer problem could be fixed, 2 years with power antenna problems, 50,000 miles of various oil leaks - dealer: we can't find a leak, Rob: there is oil all over the engine, my driveway, and smoke comes out of the hood scoop when I stop the car. Dealer, maybe someone is parking in your driveway with a car that leaks, and you picked up oil when driving. True story.
I apologize for the long post. This is probably the most I have said on the boards. The reality is that people who like Subarus may be looking at other cars for whatever reason. Any thoughts and comments are certainly welcome! Rob M.
Some of the features the TSX offers that the Legacy GT Ltd doesn't:
-Nav option (likely to be available on the 06 GT)
-Stability control
-HID headlights
-fold-down rear seat
-speed sensitive wipers
-all windows down/up from key/remote
-Homelink buttons
-auto up driver's window (both cars have auto down)
-10 minutes of power after key-off (for windows, sunroof)
-telescoping steering column (both cars have tilt)
-audio controls on steering wheel (GT has shifter buttons instead)
Both cars are quiet, but the GT is more muffled than the TSX with less noise from the tires and road.
The GT accelerates and handles better than the TSX (no surprise given AWD vs. FWD traits). Ironically, I think the GT rides a little softer too.
The GT has a smidge more interior room, probably not enough to matter.
Both interiors are top rate, but I have to give the edge to Acura for including more convenience features and providing more useful (and innovative) illumination. I do think the Legacy GT interior looks better in daylight, however.
The TSX gets better gas mileage while still offering plenty of power and torque for everyday driving. The iVTEC 2.4 inline 4-cylinder really impresses me with it's linear power delivery and refinement. Once again I am reminded that Honda makes some sweet engines.
The GT is really fast, and the 5EAT transmission is spectacular with seamless rapid fire shifts. It offers a very memorable driving experience unlike any other auto-trans car I have driven (including the TSX).
The GT 5-spd shifter and transmission is quite good, but the TSX 6-spd is clearly superior. Again, this is a reminder that Honda makes some of the best manual gearboxes around. Simply spectacular to operate. We got an auto TXS, so I can only dream about this item...
The fit and finish of both cars is good, but the Acura seems to have more precision in the way things go together. Body gaps look smaller too (but I have not measured).
Both cars look great in my opinion.
That's all I can think of at the moment -- I'll add more comparisons as they come to mind.
Craig
With that said, the TL has quick steering and quick reaction time, which makes driving on the highway a joy. Not quite at the level of my WRX, but not far behind.
I would expect the Legacy to be very adept at this as well, and superior in winding roads.
Same with the TSX in this respect.
The Acuras will be superior to the Legacy in luxury, name, and content, but the Legacy GT will probably be at least as good, if not superior in performance to both.
Waiting to see the 0-60 numbers for the GT.
Certainly if you need AWD it cuts down your choices and makes everything else is moot, which is why I bought the GT limited. What good is a car if it doesn't get you where you need to go at any time? After 5 days of driving it around in good weather, I have zero regrets. It's a great car! I can't wait until it snows!
My $.02
tom
At least in the auto transmission TSX, there is no hint of torque steer. I didn't notice it when driving the manual-trans TSX either. Honda must have improved the way they get the power to the road, since my 97 Prelude torque-steered with less power!
Tell you what, if Acura offered a TSX wagon, I'd seriously give it a look. In addition to AWD, the main reason I am considering a Legacy is to get a wagon (though we were looking at sedans for my wife).
Craig
http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/newcars/modelHome.jsp?yearId=2004&- ;amp- ;modelId=10410&bodyId=10734&bodyDescription=Tourer&en- - gineId=&badgeId=&transmissionId=&colourId=&colour- - AllocationId=&wheelPartNo=&source=modelHome
The catch is you have to move to the UK or Europe.
Here's the brochure in PDF.
http://www.honda.co.uk/brochure/download/cars/HondaAccordTourer.p- df
Bob
Well, that's probably because the TSX has very little torque!
Too bad Acura rebadged the Legend as the TL or else we could have had a Legacy vs. Legend debate! :-)
The TL has quicker steering. Feels like you can throw it around a little more. The Legacy seems to have more power between the 30-60, but the TL feels like it has more below 30 and above 60.
Handling - both are good.
The Legacy's interior is much improved with the nice wood trim (looks very real). Personally think it is a toss-up.
I did not drive the manual though. Think the Legacy would really come alive with a manual. Maybe it was the car I had, but think the auto was a little too calm for me.
Basically - auto - TL, manual - probably the Legacy but would need to testdrive both.
bodble2:there was one non turbo legacy wagon at the subie event which i drove once and it was unspectacular but adequate.
Actually the TL started life as the Vigor. The former Legend is now the RL.
DaveM
1) AWD (I live in MA)
2) torque steer on new TL
If the Acura could have offered AWD and perhaps bump the HP to nearer 300 it would have got my $'s. I have so far been pleased with the decision with one exception - that is an engine stuttering/hesitation problem between 1500 and 3000 rpm (which I have bored most people with over in the 2005 legacy forum).
The Legacy definately has superior grip than my TLS and significantly better brakes but I miss the upscale interior sometimes. However we should all count our blessings that we can discuss and choose between cars of this calibre.
Pete
Yep, that was my impression too.
I also echo what Pete said about the brakes on the Subie. In the Subie event, everyone took turns flooring the cars down a straightaway and then stand on the brakes at the end. I was surprised at the performance of the brakes even after all the abuse. There was also no discernible fade.
Dear Host:My flag has changed from a Canucklehead to a Yankee flag and I don't know why.Is it because Subie is made in U.S.A.?
Amen to that.
The next RL is getting SH-AWD, which looks very promising, and one photo even showed the US Accord to demonstrate that feature. So it could spread.
If so, that puts more pressure on Subaru to distinguish itself. Right now the two major advantages (the others are minor) are AWD and the wagon body style.
-juice
I can't tell you why it changed, but I can tell you (I think) how to fix it.
Use the "Preferences" link on the left side of the page instead of the "Profile" link - you will see a place there to explicitly set your flag. It used to be that you controlled the flag by location in your profile, but that's not the case any more.
As far as I can tell, they snuck this change in on us, and for what purpose I haven't a clue. :-)
I remember the TL having very quick steering, I do not remember being overly impressed with the Legacy GT. Since there was some lag between tests. This was probably why there was a descrepancy on my part.
Thanks for the observations chadm grove
Turbos work best with manual trannys IMO. You can better monitor the lag simply by revving the engine more as you let out the clutch. You can't do that with an automatic unless you hold down the brake with your left foot, not exactly a great idea...
Bob
kevin: FWIW, reports on lag with the GT automatic vary widely, and we think it has to do with the adaptive nature of the tranny.
Bob and I got a chance to experience broken-in cars at Las Vegas motor speedway, and I felt very little lag. The tranny even holds a gear when the lateral g sensor feels that you are in the middle of a turn. It even blips the throttle to match revs when you down shift.
However, some folks go test drive green cars, not broken in, and report more lag than we felt. Some have even driven more than one and felt differences between those. Perhaps the trannies had yet to adapt to an aggressive driving style?
-juice
That's true, but those were "performance" runs and not really representative of daily driving. I have since driven an XT manual, and again no problems whatsoever with turbo lag. I look forward to driving an XT or GT automatic under similar conditions.
In any event, I really don't think turbo lag is a problem. In the WRX it *could* be a problem, but not with the XT or GT.
Bob
The WRX uses a 2.0l engine with a high boost turbo, so it has turbo lag. The automatic coupled to it is a 4 speed, and there are no manual controls for it, excaberbating the lag.
The Legacy GT uses a 2.5l engine with less boost, and higher compression. The auto has 5 ratios and manual controls, plus lower gearing, so the feeling of lag is largely eliminated.
I haven't driven a TL but I would venture to guess that the throttle response is a little better, more immediate.
-juice
Thanks...it must have been a Fourth of July thing.
Both are basically de-tuned STi engines, *not* built-up 2.5l base engines. The engines have forged internals, sodium-filled valves, and a semi-closed deck block. They even get variable valve timing now (finally!).
The Legacy GT engine has less boost than the STi but quicker spool up for good low-end torque.
The Forester XT has even less boost, but higher compression and virtually no turbo lag at all. It's also a bit lighter, but the auto only has 4 ratios so the Legacy's 5 speed matches up better to the turbo IMO. With manuals I prefer the Forester because it spools up RIGHT NOW.
Just for kicks, 0-30 in C&D for the Forester XT is actually quicker than the Ferrari Enzo.
STi is rated 300hp/300 lb-ft. Legacy is 250/250. Forester XT is 210/235.
But...dyno tests show the Forester is very under-rated. Dyno runs show about 240/250 hp and 265 lb-ft of torque on that engine. Haven't seen them for the Legacy yet.
-juice
I was impressed, but not totally blown away by the car. Overall, I think the lines are clean. The back end has no personality whatsoever. The interior layout was ok. I felt that everything was too upright and stiff.
I was able to imitate part of my normal commute, 95, 101, and the various exit ramps. Steering/handling did not feel tight at all. My 99 GT would outhandle this car with the lower stance and fatter tires.
I was concerned about torque steer on acceleration, where I am so accustomed to AWD. Dry pavement was not too bad. The car took off and shifted quickly. I played with the sport shift, but not for long. Most of my commute is highway.
The car definitely lost it when it started to rain. What a surprise in NE! It has rained like every other day this summer. I sat there spinning the tires when pulling out into traffic. This has never happened in either of my Subies. I can't imagine what a winter would be like with this car. Rob M.
I don't think torque steer would be too bad with the TSX, the engine is powerful but not that torquey to begin with.
-juice
I also don't think comparisons with your older GT are valid. I mean, my WRX will blow my wife's TSX away in terms of handling and all out power, but that is not a very useful comparison. In reality, the TSX is far more refined than the WRX or an older GT in every way.
Comparing the TSX to a new Leg GT is fine in my opinion, since they match up well in terms of refinement.
Craig
As far as the steering and handling not being tight, I truly do not understand where you are coming from. Either the loaner you drove had been completely hammered on, or else your 99 GT is an absolutely stellar performer. I find the TSX to be a snappy, sharp handling machine that is exceptionally fun to drive, expecially when you keep it on the boil.
If your point of reference for interiors is any Subaru, I don't know how you can call the TSX interior "OK." To each his own, I guess.
One last thing. Next time try the 6 sp MT version. It transforms the TSX, as is often the case when comparing slushboxes and manual trannies.
I cross-shopped the Forester XT, Outback Wagon and WRX Wagon and Sedan before settling on my TSX. I almost bought the XT, but it was the Acura's refinement and overall feeling of quality that sold me on the TSX. The Scoobies just couldn't hang in that department. The TSX is a very solid performer as well.
Johnny
True, until the 2005 Legacy came along. Check one out - huge improvements to materials and design. Makes our 2002 Legacy seem old.
At a car show I hopped out of the Legacy and into a VW Phaeton. If you check out the headliner and materials that cover the pillars, they are identical. To an $80,000 luxury car.
A TSX with good tires ought to perform well in light snow. For heavy snow I'd want more clearance neeways, like the Outback or Forester offer.
-juice
and the H6 Legacy is pricey but no more than the TL.
-juice
If the GT's engine is anything like the XT's, the car will haul butt. Another car I wouldn't buy with anything but a MT. Sounds like the GT has the same detuned 2.5 STi engine that the XT has. Sweet.
I'll have to swing by the Subaru dealer and take a look at the new GT. I'm sure it's a blast to drive. If the refinement has come up to par with other marques, Subaru should have a winner, though I'm not sure most folks will realize it.
Johnny
All I can say is, the longer I own the TSX the more I realize what a great car it is. It is really fun to drive, and I think people completely underestimate what it's capable of.
The car is a near perfect synergy of all the elements that make a car great. Looking at numbers on a piece of paper doesn't do it justice.
BTW, maybe some magazines are in love with Honda products, but I've been subscribing to Road & Track for three years, and there hasn't been one decent mention of the TSX in the 15 months or so the car has been out.
Geez. The new model year is set to come out and they still haven't done a first drive article on it. The Mazda3 and the Chevy Malibu, yes, the TSX, no. Seems a little strange to me.
Johnny
I had a blast. I was blown away with the GT experience. What a ride! I was immediately comfortable in the car, it just felt right. Up and down the highway, exit ramps, winding back roads, it was tough keeping it below 4000 rpm. I could tell that it wanted to go. The TSX was nice, but it didn't wow me the way the GT did.
Now it will be a matter of time ....
Besides the bland rear end, I was pleased with the look of the front facia. Inside I was totally impressed with the look of the dashboard and all of the amenities that came with the car. I couldn't believe that this vehicle cost only a few more grand than my RSX!
On the streets I found the ride impressive and more compliant than my car, although it felt like I was sitting up much higher. The clutch feel was very similar to my RSX, however the shifter felt weird. It was almost as if first and second gear were positioned too far to the right, like where third and fourth are in the RSX.
I wound it up several times on the highway and took it to redline in first and second from a couple of lights. It seemed to run out of power too quickly and that I had to shift too soon, like I wanted an extra grand on the tach. Twenty more ponies would serve it well.
Overall I was happy with the car, and would consider it one day when I grow out of the sporty coupe and into a sporty sedan.
As Juice mentioned, sometimes autos can bog down a turbo a bit, even though the GT has a very good one.
Personally, I think the TL and the Legacy GT are both significant improvements over the previous vehicles. The Legacy GT limited has a very nice interior. BTW, do they use real wood on the accent pieces? It looked like it! The new TL was much more fun to drive (in Auto version) over its predicesor from my test-drive experience.
Johnny - the TSX is a great car, and with the amount of features it comes with, a great value, I have not had a chance to test drive it, so I can not comment too much about. The new Legacys have made leaps and bounds for Subaru in terms of refinement. Subaru really nailed it with these cars.