I would never buy ANY used car. That's just me. Everything we buy today is complex. I bought a Panasonic 50" LCD TV and was smart enough to buy the extended warranty. I already had to replace two defective bulbs. They have extended the warranty even further and redesigned the bulb. Bottom line... every car that is made today is complex. The Prius is no exception. I have comfort in knowing that for seven years I won't have to worry about anything when I do buy my Prius.
Okay the question is would on pay more than MSRP and since statistically extended warranties are not cost effective and you always buy them that to me means you are willing to pay more than MSRP.
If you take the same warranty cost and put it in stocks or other interest accruing assets ,you would actually come out ahead and would then pay MSRP or less. The real bummer is reading all the fine print and exclusions on that extended warranty. However the key new item the HSD battery system is already covered by a manufacturers warranty.
The Prius may be more complex because of the HSD systems and more software control of the locomotion process. And then there are those nasty Prius software problems that keep surfacing.
Haven't heard of any software problems lately. I wonder why the media hasn't followed up on it? Oh.. btw... I am paying LESS than MSRP for my 06 Prius and I am getting the 7/100,000 warranty for $985. I'd do that with ANY new car I buy today. If you are keeping it for 3-5 yrs, it's not worth it.
The world does not revolve around E-Bay. Lots of other avenues to get the track record of Hybrids. You're right in some ways about being smart on the purchasing of older Hybrids. That much we agree on. I'd like to think that in the event that my hybrid goes beyond its warrantee I'll still do what I've always done & look for a bargan for used parts should the need arise. (and why not?) There are ways to be frugal. I once picked up a radio for my antique 73 Buick Riviera that would have set me back 250 bucks but thru a parts place I got it for 30 bucks. Nothing wrong with that! :shades:
I only use eBay as I have not found any other source of prices paid for used cars. If you know of a source feel free to share with us. Asking price is irrelevant in reality.
As for parts on the hybrids. I think the Prius II has enough units out that parts should not be a problem. The Prius Classic sold very few in the US and may be subject to high repair costs. Just as the Honda Insight battery is over $5000 to replace. Hybrid repair costs are somewhat unknown, which makes resale value unknown.
I checked KBB, NADA and GALVES and all of them are in close agreement. They all value the Prius a tad over 20k. I based this on my sister's car which is a 2004 package 9 with 34k miles. I think that's pretty good!
Gary, I have pointed out to you before that Edmunds TMV is based on "REAL SALES AT CAR DEALERSHIPS" and is not a guess.
I'm not one to bad mouth our Hosts. I will accept the TMV prices set forth. Will you then accept Edmund's TCO on the same hybrids? If so the TCO for the Prius & Honda hybrids is higher than any of the comparables. The Prius & HCH show higher than average depreciation. Hybrids also show a higher cost per mile over the 5 year period.
OK, granted the TCO for the HCH is 42 c per mile and the EX is 41 c per mile. That can be virtually evened out if you consider gas savings with gas prices where they are and going to be - the higher gas prices go, the more the hybrids pay for themselves.
The depreciation are estimates, which we know at this time have not yet come true - everyone knows that Used Hybrids are going for astronomical resale value, and that is going to continue for some time.
I've never looked at the TCO but I am certain it takes into account depreciation. That still is a big if. When I think of TCO I mainly am concerned with maint. costs/fuel/insurance. I am quite certain the ownership experience will be a happy one.
We can expand on that and find that the Toyota Tundra full size PU truck has a TCO cost per mile the same as the Prius II. Both are $.49 per mile. You ignored the reason that the hybrids do not fare so well. It is depreciation over several years. Sure right now while the market is hot they bring big prices even used. The big question is how much will Toyota give you in trade 5 years from now on a new hybrid?
I'm sure someone has or will trade a 2001 Prius for a 2006 Prius. That will be a known number soon.
But the problem with that is: we all know how "awful terrible insulting" dealers are when it comes to offering trade-in values on ANY car. Hybrids will be no worse or better - it's just another car, like any other car, that the dealer will want to LOWBALL you for on trade-in.
I never trade in a car at the dealer. Even though there is a sales tax advantage, overall you're better off selling privately. With so many websites that cater to auto sales, it's very easy to sell a car privately these days. I know a great place in Rehoboth Beach, DE that takes cars on consignment. He always gets top dollar and you pay a small fee. This guy actually bought my Mini Cooper Conv. for 1k less than what I paid and I owned it for six months.
"Well I went to the Toyota dealer last night with my 03 Prius and he offered me 16,500 for my car. I did the math and with 35,500 miles on the 03 I felt like it was the right thing to do. I lowered my payment by $5, got a 3 year warranty and a vehicle that has a lot more amenities than the 03."
So getting $16,500 trade value for a 2003 Prius with 35,500 miles seems pretty darn good. This owner paid $24,200 for a new 2005 Prius with Package #4 at MSRP, only had to pay the diff of $7700.
That's incredible!! I am quite impressed with how well the Prius value has been lasting. I checked KBB for the value of my sister's Prius and it is valued at $20,625 for a private sale. She paid under MSRP for the car (a few hundred) and she's had it for two years. She has no intentions of selling.
Ha...in five years, some of those folks will be passing by in hybrids that'll make Railroadjames' Prius look like a Flintstone mobile, technology-wise.
Gee, I wonder what was "wrong" with that '03 Prius that the owner felt he needed to trade up to an '05 model; yes, the owner did mention that the '05 had more amenities than the '03...but if one buys a hybrid to save on fuel costs--among other savings--trading up after just two years clearly says something about the "satisfaction" of driving an "older" Prius...
In five years railroad james will get a great deal MORe money on trading his car than most people will. By then, the Prius will have even more content, more battery life. Heck... I'm already salivating!! Get my 06 in 12 weeks!! Can't wait!!
Ha!!! Ha!!! With all that gas $$$$ I'll have saved I'll be able to afford the next techno marvel and still fit BOTH of them in my garage at the same time. It's never too late to become the wiser and ..."HYBRIDIZE."
PS.. Last night I stopped to help out a guy driving an "Excursion". He ran out of gas....Hmmmmmmmm. No surprise there. Funny thing he said was...."Wanna trade?" I smiled!
"PS.. Last night I stopped to help out a guy driving an "Excursion". He ran out of gas....Hmmmmmmmm. No surprise there. Funny thing he said was...."Wanna trade?" I smiled!"
Try towing a boat, or carrying 7 passengers, with your Prius and report back. Every vehicle has it's uses.
Most people don't have boats. I used to but decided to rent, it was cheaper. I also used to own a plane, but now I rent. If I HAD to tow a boat, I'd rent a truck. Much cheaper. The Prius can hold five passengers. I can't remember the last time I ever had to transport seven people. Last time I saw an excursion, some bimbo was driving to work in it. What as waste. I just laughed!!! Hey RR James... keep telling us those funny stories... I love 'em!!!
Seems every time I cross paths with one of those owners of V8 Behemoths THEY always respond as though they 're stuck with a "mistake". I've noticed a trend ...that they regret the fact that they're in a rut they can't unload. As to those comments concerning my Prius hauling a boat ....Actually I do haul a boat.....a Canoe & kayak. They really are a great way to see it all. Of course I can't get momma to para-sail behind the canoe and I can't get her to pull me water-skiing but I haven't given up yet. She insists she wants to lose weight. What better way!! Come to think of it...I could lose a few lbs too! By the way....Isn't an Excursion technically a SEMI?? Railroadjames(I think I sold him on a Prius come to think of it)
There you go again with that thing about "SIZE". Is it debi or steve that needs the size thing? Personally I can haul 10 people in 2 Prius's and still be using much less gas than one Excursion that gets 9-10 mpgs. Hmmmmm Is it any wonder Ford quit building those Behemoths? They're still sitting on their lots collecting dust. I guess Ford is going to have to come up with some other crazy gimmic to get rid of them. :P
Many of the diesel Excursion owners are claiming 20+MPG. It is the best large SUV for mileage & towing. Not every one needs one. For us in remote locations it is the best vehicle available. If you look at consumers reviews you will find that owners like the Excursion as well as the Prius owners like their car. Your anti-SUV bias is not making a case for the hybrids. It is only polarizing prospective buyers. When you tell someone they are driving a piece of crap, They will more than likely not want anything you would drive.
It is not really anti-suv, but more likely anti 9-10 mpg vehicles. In defense of RR James I suggest you look back at some of your anti Prius/Hybrid posts. Those posts also polarize people as well.
Let's clarify one simple point. My opinions, as of late, reflect the opinions of the folks that seem to be complaining about "THE RUT THEY'RE IN and they have come to realize they're trapped. Suddenly they realize they don't absolutly have to have all that size and capacity. Seems to be their problem and they don't much like it. One thing for sure, this winter many a home-owner is going to find out those massive homes with their cathedral ceilings and massive windows etc, are going to re-educate them on what they need as opposed to what they splurged on. Heating bills will bring about the same crisis as gas for vehicles. Lets all hope for a mild winter!! Railroadjames( the times.. they are a changing)
"There you go again with that thing about "SIZE". Is it debi or steve that needs the size thing? Personally I can haul 10 people in 2 Prius's and still be using much less gas than one Excursion that gets 9-10 mpgs."
I drive a CR-V and my wife drives a Civic, at least that is what I am assuming you mean by your first sentence, since any other meaning would be childish. The CR-V fits my needs and has far more light off road and cargo capacity than the Prius.
- How heavy is the boat you haul behind either of those two Prius? You should also note that you would have paid more than twice as much for those two vehicles than for one Excursion, which might pay for some of that gas.
- The excursion is eligible for the diesel engine and probably gets around 20MPG with that setup.
My point is that some people do have a legitimate need for a large SUV. Just because you see some with only one person inside doesn't mean that the vehicle isn't used for it's design purpose at other times. Maybe that little lady just dropped off most of the soccer team at practice, including all equipment.
What did soccer moms do in the 60's and 70's and early 80's? No SUVs really to speak of. They should come out with a fuel efficient wagon that has the hauling capacity of an SUV. With your CRV, you merely have a Civic on stilts. I would never want to venture anywhere on a trail with a CRV. I used to have an Audi allroad and even on full air height I'd never venture far (8" of ground clearance). I'd prefer to take my chances with a ten yr old subie. That's just me. A CRV with a diesel would be really nice. AWD, low 30's mileage and minimal offroad capability. Not bad. Too bad it ain't gonna happen. Thanks CARB for that.
station wagons and actually there was very little soccer in the 60's and early 70's.
Hey this guy that I network with in user meetings is now conserving gas he traded in his two minivans for one 12 passenger vechicle to save gas. He has 6 kids :P if you can imagine.
Most SUVs area joke. only 5-10% every go off road and most rarely haul their capacity and those that do hauls passengers, not weight.
For those that haul big boats, why do you need big boats ?
"What did soccer moms do in the 60's and 70's and early 80's? No SUVs really to speak of. "
The Chevy Surburban has been around since 1939, but I think those folks used station wagons that got about the same bad MPG as todays SUVs.
"With your CRV, you merely have a Civic on stilts. I would never want to venture anywhere on a trail with a CRV."
Well, I do take it onto secondary off roads, and it is not merely a civic. It actually turns shorter, and the suspension and all other components have been strengthened. It did start out with a Civic platform, but the end product is not as you describe. I would not take it too far into the boonies, it simply wasn't designed for that. It has a little over 8 inches of clearance.
The European CR-V diesel is getting about 40 MPG. Perhaps with the new low sulfur diesel in 2007 CARB will allow the diesels.
"For those that haul big boats, why do you need big boats ? "
Remind me again of the towing capacity of the Prius? So far the only boats towed have been canoes. Just how small a boat do you want to take on the open ocean?
What makes the Prius the amazing hybrid that it is. It has, unlike many previous hybrids, alot of room for comfort & convenience. It also has the hatch and fold-down seat aspect that really comes in handy. Toyota has a well designed drivetrain (Synergy) I still am amazed how well it works in vaious traffic situations. I do realize the still obvious limitations of my Prius. No, its not gonna pull a 32 ft Cutty Cabin and no its not gonna handle 7 or 8 soccer kids w/ equipmnt ...BUT... It will handle the usual 95% of one's driving needs. Thats the point! Get it? 90 to 95 percent of the time the Prius is going to deliver on one's daily needs overall. When I see a lone single person in a BIG BOX Hummer, Escalade, Suburban, Excursion or Navigator I see ..SELF INDULGENCE, WASTE, and, most of all, EXCESS STATUS ATTAINMENT...90 % of the time. One aspect I expect around the corner is "rationing". Boy! That ought to shake things up when and if that ever happens. :sick: Railroadjames ( a change is in order)
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Toyota is now measuring "time on the lot" for the Toyota Prius in hours, not days. The average Prius goes unsold for only about 20 hours after it hits a Toyota dealer's lot, according to a recent report.
With gasoline prices now around $3 a gallon, you might think it makes a lot of sense that hybrid cars are hot sellers.
Actually, it doesn't -- at least not a lot of financial sense.
They may make a social statement you're interested in, but if you want to save money because of rising gas prices, you're heading down the wrong road, at least for now.
Some simple calculations by our partners at Edmunds.com revealed the following:
A hybrid Honda Accord costs about $3,800 more than the comparable non-hybrid version, including purchase, maintenance and insurance costs. Over five years, assuming 15,000 miles of driving per year, you'll make up that cost in gasoline money if the price of gas goes up immediately to $9.20 a gallon and averages that for the whole period.
I always trust news from CNN (Communist News Network). What did they say about a Prius or HCH? Can't wait to get mine. I hope others are disuaded from what they read. The well educated will benefit with more to choose from. Don't always believe the crap you read. It's bad for your health.
"One aspect I expect around the corner is "rationing". Boy! That ought to shake things up when and if that ever happens. "
I think we we see more of a self-imposed rationing, invoked by higher taxes. As the price of fuel continues to increase, people will self-impose more limited driving. Even at $3.00 per gallon people are driving for better mpg, buying less SUVs, and taking less unnecessary trips.
When the price gets to $10.00 per gallon, there will be no need for rationing. When it takes $75 to fill up your Prius, imagine what the Hummer will cost, if they still exist!
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S.- Have you notice the latest diesel price controls ?
Oh Boy!! I hate to admit it but I too finally broke the $30.00 barrier with a 11.1 gallon fill-up in my '04 Prius (578 miles on my tripometer). Of course my son laughed at me when he said ...he should be so lucky. His Nissan Armada cost over $112.00 to fill-up and it won't last a week. Railroadjames(less gas..more miles)
"If you can afford a big boat, you don't need a Prius. End of story."
Oh, I wouldn't say that. Some people have a large truck or SUV just for towing the boat & etc. Such people might want a more economical car for around town. And if they can afford the boat, they can also afford a Prius.
Ya never know. I don't see too may Prius in the marina that's near my house. Most of the boats are parked there for the season. All I see are Bimmers, Mercs and Lexus.
Here is one man who is training mechanics to work on Priuses. Goes to emphasize my point that just like every other techological advance, there will be indpendent shops who can work on Hybrids - it will NOT be a "dealer only" service option in coming years.
"Dunn will co-host the radio show on WICN with Labelle and Craig Van Batenburg, who teaches mechanics how to service hybrids. Labelle, a 61-year-old native of Quebec who lives in Hudson, has had an interesting career path, to say the least. In 1981, he said he co-founded Cambridge Isotope Laboratories, a developer of stable isotopes and chemical compounds. Labelle retired in 1988 after the company went public. He sold his shares in the labs around 1995, he said. After retiring, he spent time consulting, focusing on investments and traveling before founding the Hybrid Center six years ago. It wasn't money that caused the career shift, he says; he already has enough to live on. He was sick of playing golf, and wanted something new. "By building a hybrid center they gave me an opportunity to expound my beliefs and give people an alternative solution to transportation," Labelle said."
"Ya never know. I don't see too may Prius in the marina that's near my house. Most of the boats are parked there for the season. All I see are Bimmers, Mercs and Lexus."
Are they environmentally friendly sailboats, or evil cabin cruisers?
But even if drivers maximize their fuel savings and get the full 13-mpg benefit in the Hybrid, they'd need about 16 years of 15,000-mile annual travel before the gasoline savings—estimated at $2.25 a gallon—would recoup the $4,300 extra they paid for the Hybrid over the Civic LX. MSN
Comments
If you take the same warranty cost and put it in stocks or other interest accruing assets ,you would actually come out ahead and would then pay MSRP or less. The real bummer is reading all the fine print and exclusions on that extended warranty. However the key new item the HSD battery system is already covered by a manufacturers warranty.
The Prius may be more complex because of the HSD systems and more software control of the locomotion process. And then there are those nasty Prius software problems that keep surfacing.
Keep on Truck'n,
MidCow
As for parts on the hybrids. I think the Prius II has enough units out that parts should not be a problem. The Prius Classic sold very few in the US and may be subject to high repair costs. Just as the Honda Insight battery is over $5000 to replace. Hybrid repair costs are somewhat unknown, which makes resale value unknown.
It is FAR better than the "all over the board" E-Bay prices. E-Bay is the WORST car buying model known to man.
I'm not one to bad mouth our Hosts. I will accept the TMV prices set forth. Will you then accept Edmund's TCO on the same hybrids? If so the TCO for the Prius & Honda hybrids is higher than any of the comparables. The Prius & HCH show higher than average depreciation. Hybrids also show a higher cost per mile over the 5 year period.
The depreciation are estimates, which we know at this time have not yet come true - everyone knows that Used Hybrids are going for astronomical resale value, and that is going to continue for some time.
But the problem with that is: we all know how "awful terrible insulting" dealers are when it comes to offering trade-in values on ANY car. Hybrids will be no worse or better - it's just another car, like any other car, that the dealer will want to LOWBALL you for on trade-in.
"Well I went to the Toyota dealer last night with my 03 Prius and he offered me 16,500 for my car. I did the math and with 35,500 miles on the 03 I felt like it was the right thing to do. I lowered my payment by $5, got a 3 year warranty and a vehicle that has a lot more amenities than the 03."
So getting $16,500 trade value for a 2003 Prius with 35,500 miles seems pretty darn good. This owner paid $24,200 for a new 2005 Prius with Package #4 at MSRP, only had to pay the diff of $7700.
That used to be a joke when I was a kid, "the rich people bought a new Cadillac because the tire went flat" No foreign cars back then.
It's never too late to become the wiser and ..."HYBRIDIZE."
PS.. Last night I stopped to help out a guy driving an "Excursion". He ran out of gas....Hmmmmmmmm. No surprise there. Funny thing he said was...."Wanna trade?" I smiled!
Try towing a boat, or carrying 7 passengers, with your Prius and report back. Every vehicle has it's uses.
As to those comments concerning my Prius hauling a boat ....Actually I do haul a boat.....a Canoe & kayak. They really are a great way to see it all. Of course I can't get momma to para-sail behind the canoe and I can't get her to pull me water-skiing but I haven't given up yet. She insists she wants to lose weight. What better way!! Come to think of it...I could lose a few lbs too!
By the way....Isn't an Excursion technically a SEMI??
Railroadjames(I think I sold him on a Prius come to think of it)
Many of the diesel Excursion owners are claiming 20+MPG. It is the best large SUV for mileage & towing. Not every one needs one. For us in remote locations it is the best vehicle available. If you look at consumers reviews you will find that owners like the Excursion as well as the Prius owners like their car. Your anti-SUV bias is not making a case for the hybrids. It is only polarizing prospective buyers. When you tell someone they are driving a piece of crap, They will more than likely not want anything you would drive.
Railroadjames( the times.. they are a changing)
I drive a CR-V and my wife drives a Civic, at least that is what I am assuming you mean by your first sentence, since any other meaning would be childish. The CR-V fits my needs and has far more light off road and cargo capacity than the Prius.
- How heavy is the boat you haul behind either of those two Prius? You should also note that you would have paid more than twice as much for those two vehicles than for one Excursion, which might pay for some of that gas.
- The excursion is eligible for the diesel engine and probably gets around 20MPG with that setup.
My point is that some people do have a legitimate need for a large SUV. Just because you see some with only one person inside doesn't mean that the vehicle isn't used for it's design purpose at other times. Maybe that little lady just dropped off most of the soccer team at practice, including all equipment.
Hey this guy that I network with in user meetings is now conserving gas he traded in his two minivans for one 12 passenger vechicle to save gas. He has 6 kids :P if you can imagine.
Most SUVs area joke. only 5-10% every go off road and most rarely haul their capacity and those that do hauls passengers, not weight.
For those that haul big boats, why do you need big boats ?
YMMV,
MidCow
The Chevy Surburban has been around since 1939, but I think those folks used station wagons that got about the same bad MPG as todays SUVs.
"With your CRV, you merely have a Civic on stilts. I would never want to venture anywhere on a trail with a CRV."
Well, I do take it onto secondary off roads, and it is not merely a civic. It actually turns shorter, and the suspension and all other components have been strengthened. It did start out with a Civic platform, but the end product is not as you describe. I would not take it too far into the boonies, it simply wasn't designed for that. It has a little over 8 inches of clearance.
The European CR-V diesel is getting about 40 MPG. Perhaps with the new low sulfur diesel in 2007 CARB will allow the diesels.
Remind me again of the towing capacity of the Prius? So far the only boats towed have been canoes. Just how small a boat do you want to take on the open ocean?
One aspect I expect around the corner is "rationing". Boy! That ought to shake things up when and if that ever happens. :sick:
Railroadjames ( a change is in order)
With gasoline prices now around $3 a gallon, you might think it makes a lot of sense that hybrid cars are hot sellers.
Actually, it doesn't -- at least not a lot of financial sense.
They may make a social statement you're interested in, but if you want to save money because of rising gas prices, you're heading down the wrong road, at least for now.
Some simple calculations by our partners at Edmunds.com revealed the following:
A hybrid Honda Accord costs about $3,800 more than the comparable non-hybrid version, including purchase, maintenance and insurance costs. Over five years, assuming 15,000 miles of driving per year, you'll make up that cost in gasoline money if the price of gas goes up immediately to $9.20 a gallon and averages that for the whole period.
CNN Money Hybrid myth
"One aspect I expect around the corner is "rationing". Boy! That ought to shake things up when and if that ever happens. "
I think we we see more of a self-imposed rationing, invoked by higher taxes. As the price of fuel continues to increase, people will self-impose more limited driving. Even at $3.00 per gallon people are driving for better mpg, buying less SUVs, and taking less unnecessary trips.
When the price gets to $10.00 per gallon, there will be no need for rationing. When it takes $75 to fill up your Prius, imagine what the Hummer will cost, if they still exist!
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S.- Have you notice the latest diesel price controls ?
Railroadjames(less gas..more miles)
Oh, I wouldn't say that. Some people have a large truck or SUV just for towing the boat & etc. Such people might want a more economical car for around town. And if they can afford the boat, they can also afford a Prius.
Here is one man who is training mechanics to work on Priuses. Goes to emphasize my point that just like every other techological advance, there will be indpendent shops who can work on Hybrids - it will NOT be a "dealer only" service option in coming years.
"Dunn will co-host the radio show on WICN with Labelle and Craig Van Batenburg, who teaches mechanics how to service hybrids. Labelle, a 61-year-old native of Quebec who lives in Hudson, has had an interesting career path, to say the least. In 1981, he said he co-founded Cambridge Isotope Laboratories, a developer of stable isotopes and chemical compounds. Labelle retired in 1988 after the company went public. He sold his shares in the labs around 1995, he said. After retiring, he spent time consulting, focusing on investments and traveling before founding the Hybrid Center six years ago. It wasn't money that caused the career shift, he says; he already has enough to live on. He was sick of playing golf, and wanted something new.
"By building a hybrid center they gave me an opportunity to expound my beliefs and give people an alternative solution to transportation," Labelle said."
Are they environmentally friendly sailboats, or evil cabin cruisers?
USA Today Hybrid Myth
But even if drivers maximize their fuel savings and get the full 13-mpg benefit in the Hybrid, they'd need about 16 years of 15,000-mile annual travel before the gasoline savings—estimated at $2.25 a gallon—would recoup the $4,300 extra they paid for the Hybrid over the Civic LX.
MSN