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Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids
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My wife & I just drove to the Atlanta airport, a trip of about 70 miles. We registered 67 MPG with the windows down, going 55 miles per hour.
67 MPG. There are a lot of motorcycles that won't get 67 MPG. When we returned, I tried to pump a gallon into the tank, but I think the computer had underreported the rate, because I couldn't even get a gallon into it.
I just don't get it. There seems to be an insane attachment to gasoline, like a crack addiction or something. When I read that the only reason why I'd buy the car is "to make a statement", I just want to throw my hands up in the air and say, you're right.
Man, the press really is a confederation of dunces.
See ya at the pumps (or not).
Also people have pointed out that the current hybrids are just a form of "interim technology" and that something better is around the corner. show me one piece of technology that is "the end all be all." Technology is always improving and something better is always around the corner. let's change the subject to cars with safety features... one could make an arguement that the cars of today are generally safer than those of 10 years ago. I'm willing to predict that the cars 10 years from now will be even safer. yet if safety is a primary concern, and I'm afraid of interim technology, then I'll never buy a car because cars will always be built safer as technology advances.
I compared a Prius to a Camry non-hybrid.
Driving the 2,334 miles a month that we're putting on the car, I get a monthly difference as follows (assuming $3 gasoline):
Camry: $249
Prius: $135
If you spread that over 60 months, that's a total savings of $9,720.
Plus, I have a VERY strong hunch that because the motor is not subject to the normal high torque required from 0 to 20 MPH, the drive train's going to be in MUCH better condition in the Prius. I'd be willing to bet that the motor stays well under 3,000 RPM in the city, representing a significant decrease in strain on the internal combustion motor.
So I just don't know where the Confederation of Dunces is getting their numbers from. Because my monthly outlay is absolute, positive proof that hybrid technology saves you gas IMMEDIATELY.
Inevitable? Hardly. There is simply no evidence to support that claim.
The "full" hybrid design goes why out of its way to protect the battery-pack, to the point of using extra gas for that purpose. Never allowing the charge-level to dip below 45 percent does quite a bit to ensure a long life. And Prius owners are now exceeding 150,000 miles with reports that the battery-pack is still operating just fine, no sign of the need for replacement.
JOHN
Please support your claim that the batteries need replacing on a routine basis after five years. If you can show me any evidence that this is actually occuring on past models, I'll sell you my hybrid for a cut-rate price of $38,995.
Just special for you, because you'll be right and I'll be...the other thing.
I think the battery issue becomes much more acute if you do not drive a lot of miles per year. I have two cars under 90k miles that are over 15 years old. So when the 10 year battery warranty ends, I am a sitting duck for a lot of expensive repairs. Maybe on any car that is overly computerized. Maybe we are stuck with these throwaway cars built today.
I did get something like 23 MPG when I was climbing a long series mountain switchbacks that were around a one-in-four grade. But I don't imagine anybody's commute is that demanding. I suppose if I tied a dead holstein to the back bumper, I could do it.
so maybe I'm beginning to get a clue what the problem is. Nobody I know that owns a Prius has EVER, EVER gotten that low a mileage rating. NEVER EVER. So it looks like Consumer Reports deflated the rates.
With AC on full blast and the tires soft, I consistently get 42 MPG around town. With it off, I get around 52 MPG. Every single person I've ever spoken to gets those same rates.
And I've gotten as high as 73 MPG on a twenty-five mile trip on GA 400.
That's the truth.
Now I understand what they're basing it on.
Again, thank you, gacrice.
Truthfully, I'd have paid $38,000 to make sure my money isn't being funneled into the oil consortium, exuding unnecessary noxious fumes.
And next year I'm going to pay the $10,000 required to convert it to a plug-in premium to do the same. Even if it voids the warrantee.
That's where I start becoming glib and superior about the whole thing.
(It may take somewhere around 55% of the votes to win an election; but it only takes a 10% shift in consumers' collective habits to swing the outcome favorably. And I'd be willing to bet I could get more rich people to buy Priuses than someone else could get poor people to buy Hummers.)
Camry: $249
Prius: $135
If you spread that over 60 months, that's a total savings of $9,720. "
I'm not sure I get the math. 249 - 135 = 114 * 60 = $6840. Where did the 9720 come from?
Also, I suppose it would depend on your driving habits. So let me try it here.
Lets say the Prius at 50 MPG (Conservative) and the Camry at 30 MPG (also conservative, assuming mostly road miles). That is 20 MPG difference. Ummm, 2334 miles per month / 50 = 46.68 gallons, 2334 / 30 = 77.8 gallons, difference = 31.12. That times 3 = $93.36 extra per month * 60 months = $5601.6. That is the gas savings.
Now for the cost. Depends on the Prius model. Lets say the mid level, about $24,000. Now the Camry may actually go for near invoice, about 18,500. That is $6000 difference. It would be about $9000 for the top of the line, and only $2000 or so for the base model - if you can find one (the Toyota dealers apparently make more $$ on the higher end models, and these are the most common).
So that's about 4 years to recoup the cost. However, it is a variable equation, depending on the actual amounts spent and the driving styles and if is was city or highway, etc. There are also the intangibles, such as long term batteries (there is a whole forum on this issue) - of which it needs to be pointed out that people's perceptions of battery reliability are almost as important as reality at resale time. But in general, on the purchase amounts, it would appear that one could break even in 3.5 - 4 years provided one was buying a new car anyway.
It is a far different story if one already has a car that is paid for, or mostly paid for. People sometimes forget that not everyone can afford a new car every 3 - 4 years.
It is also a vastly different story with cheaper cars in the compact class, which can be had for under $15,000 and get in the high 30's or mid 40's in MPG. The break even is much harder in such situations. We should also realize that the Camry is a larger vehicle, with more room; the Prius is actually sized more towards compact (in fact Edmunds lists it as a compact sedan, though the EPA lists it as mid-size).
PLEASE don't buy a Corolla over a Prius......
Buy a USED Prius, something with 20K-30K miles on it, keep it until 2008 when it will then have only 45K miles on it, and sell it at a premium.
Reap the benefit of the extra 10-15 MPG for the whole time. Reap the benefit of the extra creature comforts and the WAY WAY lower emissions....
Think about it !!
Not to be critical or anything, but what's with the big font text? It's a bit like shouting...
Cannot believe the American automotive industry is slow in this area.
Question: Where's the proof of that?
Answer: There isn't any. It's nothing but a misconception, based on assumptions from electrical devices that don't operate the same way.
Obligatory maintenance shock? Are you just writing poetry for your adult education class? Please show me ANY conclusive, anecdotal evidence that shows that people are having to buy batteries at 50,000.
In fact, show me one, single instance where that was required. I think you're engaging in "CREATIVE WRITING 101".
At one point, I counted in my rear-view mirror eight people who'd coincidently arrived from all different directions, admiring my car. "That's one of those hybrids," I heard.
I truly believe that I've managed to make up for every dumb decision I've ever made in my life by buying this car, considering that we traded in our 2000 (14 MPG average) Pathfinder, getting its full price six months ago, we did quite well. Today, if I still had that Pathfinder, I could drop it as a mooring into Lake Lanier.
I'm tellin' ya: when I explain that you don't have to plug it in because it invokes generators in the wheels instead of using just brakes which waste energy in the form of heat, you can see the lightbulb go on. They really get it. It's like an ah-ha, every single time. Their eyes always light up.
And long-term dpreciation is still another unknown. What will happen to resale value when the traction batteries get near then end of thier warranty life?
Go hypermilers! How long did the 70 mile trip take you, two(2) hours?
MidCow
P.S. Worked, didn't it?
In this particular case, it's a "no-brainer" to choose the used Prius over the new Corolla because of the driver's needs.
This driver in question puts 4500 miles a year on a car. Very VERY small load. And this driver in question trades cars every three years. So in essence, this driver should NEVER EVER buy a *Brand New Car.* Because if they do, they are paying the STEEP "first three years depreciation cost" of any new car. That's financially unsound and wasteful.
Because of that circumstance, they should always buy a USED car which is 3-5 years old, drive it for three years and put less than 15,000 miles on it, then sell it for MUCH CLOSER to what they bought it for than they could do for ANY new car they buy new and keep for three years. See the AWESOME logic !!???!!!
People unload 'new' Priuses for the same reasons anyone unloads any new car: they need something else, either practically or financially. Maybe it was a service member who got shipped overseas. Or a man who got married into a pre-built family. There are a lot of reasons people dump new-ish cars, and very rarely is it "because the car has a problem." Cars that are lemons get junked or they get fixed - not put back up for sale. Any "used Prius" at a Toyota dealer is likely to be "Toyota Certified" which adds a good smoking warranty to the standard one.
This person should ABSOLUTELY shop for a used Prius instead of a New Corolla, only because of their particular unusual situation. This advice is not for every buyer, but for a buyer in that circumstance, nothing else makes more sense.
"Driving the 2,334 miles a month that we're putting on the car, I get a monthly difference as follows (assuming $3 gasoline):
Camry: $249
Prius: $135 "
That is Voodoo economics. You don't give the details so let me try an interpret. If I am wrong , please correct.
You are looking at gas only correct???
Prius gas used ($135/3) = 45 gallons Mileage 2,334/45 = 51.67 miles per gallon
Camry gas ($249/3)= 89 gallons Mileage=(2,334/89) = 26.22 miles per gallon.
Okay so far let's look at prices
Let say you bought a Prius option package=6 TVM price $126 over MSRP = $26,706
And since we want economy, let's get a Camry LE maual shift EPA= 24/33 and 33 mpg is more reasonable so we only use (2,344/33)= 70.72 gallons of gas instead of 89 so the gas cost is only ( 72.2 * $3)= $212.18 monlty
Now lets finance at typical 5years 5% no down an not include TT&L the Camry is $341.87 per month and the Prius is $503.98
Total cost:
Camry = $212.18 + $341.87 = $554.05
Prius = $135 + $503.98 = $638.98
So when you facvtor in the car cost on the gas cost the Camry is much cheaper!
If you disagree show me you figures.
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S. - As gas prices increase so will the addtional delaer markup above MSRP
H'mm where have you seen the Priuses that are 10 years old or 100,000 miles? They don't exist yet do they so how do we know how the batteries will hold up ?
Wow you really must have gotten taken when you bought your Prius. How much over MSRP did you pay anyway, if $38,995 is now you cut-rate price?
I found a Russian auction site a few months ago that had cars from all over Asia an Europe for sale and there were dozens of 1997-up Priuses with 100,000 miles on them.
Up until only a few months ago, Toyota had said they had "never" replaced a battery due to the battery aging process.
A certain very popular Auto search site I just now searched has 4 Priuses over 100,000 miles: 109K, 126K, 126K, and 141K. Another one has Prius cars at 89K, 90K, 99K, and 119K. That site listed 31 Priuses with more than 60,000 miles.
Recent HCH owner has 65,000 miles on his HCH and the battery tested 96% of original charge capacity. It would take 450,000 miles to get down to 75% capacity !!!
The evidence SO FAR shows that Hybrid batteries are holding up JUST fine, as will resale values - thanks much !!
"I've seen post after post discussing not being able to recoup the $3,000 extra tab for for the hybrid, and I've always been left utterly stumped.
Now I understand what they're basing it on."
I want one of those non-hybrid Priuses that are $3,000 less. Danashields where can I get one ?
They don't exist so how can a Prius be compared ,correctly, to anything quantitatively? Answer is it can't
Cheers,
MidCow
Larsb: I read that report too regarding the battery.
To all: Battery replacement should be the least of your problems. I am quite confident that the batteries will hold up. If not, you get a new battery for FREE under the generous warranty.
Yes there are probably a lot of Priuses with 10, 000 ( ten thousand) miles by now, but I am talking about 100,000 miles ( one hundred thousand) .Driving at a typical annual rate of 15,000 miles that would mean 6.67 years of driving and would mena the car was put into service in late 1998 . Therfore only very high mileage drives ( i.e. taxi cabs) would have reached the 100,000 mile mark yet. 4 Priuses over 100,000 and 31 over 60,000 miles is not a valid statistical sample.
Larsb also said "Up until only a few months ago, Toyota had said they had "never" replaced a battery due to the battery aging process. ' I am not exactly sure where that came from. I have a nephew that is a Toyota mechanic in St. Louis and they have replaced a few batteries already. That again is not a statistical sample, but it dispuutes the absolute statement that non have ever been replace becuase of the aging process. However, maybe they are twsiting the wording of "aging process" to mean chronological years.
Cheers,
MidCow
P.S.- Are you still driving slow in the HOV lanes ?
Well, as far as a "valid statistical sample," we've got what we've got.
And what we DO have is ZERO reports of Prius batteries dying of old age and/or losing their ability to hold a charge. These VERY high tech batteries don't die for any other reason.
Toyota has sold more than 400,000 hybrids worldwide since 1997. That's a pretty big sample, wouldntcha agree? Zero reports of old age batteries out of 400,000 vehicles? Pretty darn indicative of a solid technology, eh?
Hate to burst your bubble about the generous warranty, but there was at least one hybrid driver who was having a battery problem with the batteries discharging too fast. He took it in for a repalcement and they told him that the batteries were still within specifcations and were not considered bad and would not be replaced. It was a honda insight and it could have just been a story, but I am not sure how good the long-term battery arranty will really be. Is it full replacement, replacement of justed the failed module or a prorated repalcement. Or even worse, replacement only if the battery or battery midule failes to meet their test criteria.
You know Hyundai has a 10 yr 100,000 mile powertrain warranty, but I do not think thier powertrain is the best becuase they have a long warranty.
Zacharya, by reading your comments in threads you seem to take both sides of the battery issue, knid of a devil's advocate. I hope you don't have any problems, but I sense there is some deep down fear of eminent failure.
Whew ! too much interaction with this forum ,
MidCow