Acura RDX

jrynn

Acura doesn't really sell to MB and BMW buyers... Basically, Acura sells to Honda/Toyota/Nissan buyers who are looking to move up...

What's your source on this?

I know any number of people who've cross-shopped the MB C-Class, BMW 3 series, and Acura TSX. (I'm one myself; I owned a 3-series and a C-Class before buying the TSX.)

I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that if all we're trading here is anecdotal evidence, the jury shouldn't reach a decision 'til someone has customer survey evidence from Honda/Acura (or some other reliable source) to offer.

Frankly, the only vehicle I'll be looking at when the RDX comes out is the X3. There isn't a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan product that I'd consider a competitor in this particular niche.

kyfdx

I'm sorry... I'll put IMO on all of my posts from now on..

And, unless you see a link... everything you read on Edmunds is anecdotal evidence...

My anecdotal evidence includes shopping for and buying six Hondas, two Acuras, two Nissan, and two BMWs....

I've cross-shopped all of those makes myself.... but, I don't think I'm typical.. and shopping is shopping.. Where are most of the buyers coming from?

As always.... this is just my opinion..

regards,
kyfdx

ateixeira

From AutoPacific. The data is from 1999, KBB used to post this info and you can still get it.

For the RL, they said:

Where does this buyer shop? Owners shop Lexus (32%), other Acura vehicles (16%) and the Mercedes-Benz line (12%).

For the TL, they said:

Where does this buyer shop? The Lexus ES300 (14%) is a common vehicle that’s cross shopped here. In fact, Lexus is by far the most common brand that TL owners list as a second choice (30%).

So interpret that as you want to. Benz is listed, but Lexus is mentioned as the closest competitor. So in a way you're both right.

-juice

kyfdx

We are still talking about shoppers.. in 1999...

They don't say where the buyers came from.. IOW, what did they own before they bought the RL or TL..

I bet not very many of them owned Mercedes or BMW before that... Most are "move-up" buyers from other Japanese brands... I could see move-up Japanese buyers considering both Acuras and Lexi.. especially the ES300..

But, I still think that most of Acura buyers previous vehicles were Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans...

IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO

regards,
kyfdx

ateixeira

Hey, don't shoot the messenger, it was the best I could do. And the only real data we have so far. :P

How do we know they're not moving up from European brands like VW?

There are a lot of ex-VW owners that were burned (lack of reliability) but get spoiled by strokable dash interior and then look to Japanese luxury to get it.

-juice

kyfdx

How do we know

Just ask me.... lol.

ateixeira

IMO brand loyalty ain't what it used to be.

My dad was a Chevy man, he owned several, even a Vega!

His Z28 was a little nicer.

But nowadays, I don't think you see nearly as much loyalty. Some of the winners of the Polk Owner Loyalty awards are getting something like 40% customer retention.

But think about what that means - 60% defect and leave the brand!

And those are the WINNERS. For the losers I bet 90% bail out.

So I dunno, I bet Acura buyers come from every corner.

You might observe a phenomenon where buyers that value reliability first and foremost would tend to stay with a reliable brand, hence the Lexus/Acura link. Not to mention they're in similar price ranges.

Alternately, German car fans might sell a VW and move up to Audi or BMW, those would seem most likely. They might value character above reliability.

I just think it's not the same as it used to be. There is more "churning", more unloyalty, more swapping brands.

-juice

kyfdx

All true... but, if it weren't for brand loyalty, GM and Ford would be out of business.. How else to explain the Tempo?

ateixeira

They've been bleeding market share like crazy. Just about everyone else will benefit, perhaps Hyundai the most.

I'd say about 15 years ago you'd see a lot of domestic or import shoppers, but even that happens less and less.

-juice

toast

IMO brands evolve, maintain, dissolve or revolve. The Big 3 are dissolving, the japanese and european brands are maintaining and the Koreans are evolving. Check out the new 2006 hyundai azera(265HP) or the 2006 hyundai santa fe(225HP). These guys are putting together a higher quality product each year as evidenced by consumer satisfaction ratings. They are doing a good job of taking the best attributes from existing quality cars and making attractive vehicles available for far less than Toyota or Honda.

I have always been a loyal Honda/Acura owner. But I am going to give Hyundai a shot when all of these models come out in the next 5-15 months. If they rate well, drive nice and cost $3-5K less while offering exceptional warranties I may evolve with the Koreans.

bodble2

If the Korean cars are as fine as their women, they'll be number one! :P

bodble2

You probably right. Most people trade up, not down. So I guess it would be a natural evolution for Honda, Toyota, Nissan owners to look at Acura, Lexus, etc., when their bank accounts get a little fatter. And likewise, Acura and Lexus owners will look at BMW, Audi, MB when they get promoted. Of course, there are some that will go the other direction, due to changing economic, and job situations, or due to lifestyle changes. For example, if I ever move into a condo where I have to either park on the street, or share a common parkade with 250 strangers, I'm buying American or Korean. That's when a Malibu Maxx looks perfectly suitable!

ephrum

I am new to this discussion, but have been hearing about the RDX with interest. Does anyone know the latest and greatest on when the RDX will be available, and approximate price range?

When the concept was released, we heard 2006, and mid to high $30's, but looking at the concept, it looks more like high $40's and sounds more like 07.

Anybody heard any reliable information? ">

bodble2

Reliable information thus far is scarce. The only sure thing is that it will have SH-AWD. Prices are still purely speculation. Intro date is supposed to be about 1 year from now.

kyfdx

Link to the video from the auto show.. They say production will start in '06 at the Ohio assembly plant..

RDX video

I assume that means the Fall of '06, as an '07 model..

regards,
kyfdx

ephrum

Thanks for the info. I'm just wondering if I should trade in my Y2K TL for a small interim SUV now, or wait for the RDX to come out.

nippononly

I read in MT today that Infiniti is going to get into this game too with the CX35, a smaller version of the FX with the 3.5 in it. Acura better do the V-6!!

anythngbutgm

That new Infinit CX sounds great! I've read that there will be a CX25 (2.5 Altima motor) and CX35 (Venerable Nissan VQ). It would be smart for Honda to go with a V6 to keep in the game. The 3.2 from the TL would be quite enough to make the RDX go.

On a side note, new MB MLK sounds like it may be a quite a contender as well.

nippononly

yeah, the new Mercedes looked really good to me too. I didn't mention it only because I am quite sure it will come in well above the price of these other competitors. The blurb on the CX mentioned the 2.5 for European sales, but I wonder if they wouldn't sell it ONLY with the 3.5 here. This is another area where Acura might come up a little short - many of the competitors have an optional engine. Certainly the X3 does. I doubt the Acura will, whichever engine they choose.

robertash

I heard from Acura RDX expected March/April 06.

anythngbutgm

With the 3.5 being used in the FX, I wonder why Infiniti would offer it in the CX as the only motor? May hurt FX35 sales in the long run...

I heard the same thing about the March/April 06' release... And a new MDX to follow for 07'. I'm anxious to compare the two to see if its worth waiting for the next MDX before going for the RDX.

kyfdx

By release.. do you think they mean showing it to the public? The NY auto show is usually in March... That would be a normal timetable for a car that starts rolling off the production line in August/September...

I don't think we'll see it for sale before then..

ateixeira

Wonder if the CX35 will be Murano-based? Strangely, the Murano has the V6 standard.

The FX goes on the G35 platform I believe, so no overlap there.

-juice

varmint

I wonder about that new Infiniti. The current FX offers cargo capacity on par with the RAV4 and Subaru Forester. Max cargo capacity is 64.5 cu.ft. (seats down) and 27.4 (seats up). The FX is a nice performance package, but the lack of utility has got me calling it the hatchback of the luxury SUV arena.

If they are going to offer a less expensive, similar-sized vehicle, I hope the next FX is closer to the RX and MDX in size. Otherwise this new SUV will compete quite a bit with its not-much-bigger-brother.

Despite any conflict within the Infiniti line, I'm sure the CX35 will be a hit. Assuming it doesn't come with a tiny passenger and cargo compartment, I can see it cleaning the clock of any 4 cyl RDX (turbo or not). In the absence of much direct competition, I can see a four cylinder RDX making the grade. Kinda like the TSX. However, with Infiniti, BMW, and potentially MB getting into this niche, Acura will need a V6.

robertash

I hear from Acura that RDX should be released in April/May 06. SH-AWD is correct as well as enhanced NAVI as in the RL. The BIG question is what engine? I can't imagine using 4 banger with SH-AWD. Rumers are multi stage V6

nippononly

will be on a shortened version of the FM platform, supposedly. So, NOT a mini-Murano, but rather a mini-FX.

I really hope the fabled turbo four Acura that MT mentioned in its RDX speculation does NOT happen. Any other engine, existing or new, would be better. Leave the turbos to the Europeans (and Sube).

varmint

TOV is reporting that Acura had considered a turbo 4 as the powerplant for the RDX. However, they did not find a turbo unit on the market which met their demands for durability. Instead, they are introducing the RDX with an existing V6. The turbo model may come later.

bodble2

If true, that would be good news. The 270hp unit from the TL should work just fine!

kyfdx

Heck.. let's go all the way... 300hp out of the RL!!

varmint

...the 240 hp 3.0 would be enough to get the vehicle started. The 260 hp 3.2 from the TL-S would be perfectly fine, as well. I really don't think the RDX needs to be blazingly quick. It just can't be pokey.

nippononly

if they use the 3.0, it may keep the costs down a bit. Shoot for under $30K, Acura!

ateixeira

Can it get any smaller? :P

I'm with varmint on this one, the FX is already a small hatchback inside despite the huge foot print. The CX had better have much better space utilization.

This happened to Hyundai, BTW, the Tucson has more interior room than the Santa Fe.

Keep something in mind - the 3.0l V6 from the Accord burns regular fuel. As a buyer, wouldn't that appeal to you, with gas prices where they are? It won't be very fuel efficient, so at least it could run on regular fuel.

Very few competitors do. In fact I can't think of any near-luxury SUVs that do.

-juice

anythngbutgm

Having a motor that runs on regular is definitely worth noting. I know I am allowed to run regular in my wifes MDX, but the performance and economy are hampered by it. The 3.0 would be perfectly matched with the RDX sizewise. With a 6-speeder from the Accord coupe too! :P

I'm thinking though that if the TL is expected to go AWD in the future with the 3.2l under the hood, the engineering for the SH-AWD with that motor could be done in series for the RDX? Thanks for the info Varmint, I'm curious to read what TOV has for info as well. The RDX is shaping up to be a gem of a vehicle.

kyfdx

I'll bet... that whatever engine the RDX comes with... Premium fuel will be required.... or, at the very least... recommended..

regards,
kyfdx

varmint

"I'm with varmint on this one..."

I'm still not sure they allow that in here. :P

The FX was introduced in 2003. Assuming that it goes with a 5 year cycle, it will be up for redesign in the 2008 model year. That would be the same year as the debut of the CX35. That would allow Infiniti to make a decent-sized CX, as the FX could be enlarged a bit shortly before or after. There would be little overlap.

It's essentially the same with the RDX and MDX. The redesigned MDX is due for 2007, which is the same year the RDX debuts. Even if the RDX gets a V6, the MDX (300hp?) will likely trump it almost immediately. So there won't be much in-fighting between peers.

I didn't mention it earlier, but one of the reasons why Honda was looking at turbos was because their plans would allow it to get better fuel economy than a V6. So, they are concerned with fuel economy. Given that concern, I agree that they might go with an engine rated for "regular" fuel. In fact, we might see a J30 producing 220 - 230 hp with tuning focused on fuel economy (it might have a broader torque curve, as well). After all, they have to overcome the relatively poor aerodynamics of the wagon body-style.

A side note on this recent rumor... according to this source, Honda rejected the turbo option because they were having trouble finding a parts manufacturer who would produce the turbo to their specifications with the durability Honda requires. Yet, the 2.2L diesel they use for the european markets is a turbo.

That's a wee bit fishy, IMO.

ateixeira

Yeah, sorry 'bout that.

I don't get it, Honda had the best turbos ever in F1, but they never made it to the street. And reliability was one of the primary advantages over the V12s of that era (fuel efficiency being the other).

-juice

varmint

In the future, we should just write, "I don't disagree". That'll help prevent our hosts from going into shock.

My understanding (again this is all just rumor) is that Honda designed the engine with a turbo in mind. They designed the turbo for it. Reliability and fuel economy were taken into account with those designs and they met Honda's criteria. They've been doing quite a bit lately with variable vane turbos in concept applications (like the HSC concept from the other year).

Reading between the lines a little bit... I suspect Honda sent the plans out to the various suppliers. The suppliers turned around and said, "can't be done". Or, more likely, can't be done for what Honda wanted to pay. Simplicity always seems to take a back seat to function in Honda designs. Compromises were required which would have degraded the durability of the turbo unit.

Hence the V6.

ateixeira

Was a hybrid, wasn't it? Did it also have a turbo?

That thing was so cool...

Dunno, turbo technology has progressed substantially. Nowadays we see twin-scroll ball-bearing in-line twin turbos, instead of the big fat laggy ones of the 80s that were more like on/off switches.

-juice

varmint

No hybrid. You might be thinking of the Honda Dualnote/Acura DNX. It was essentially one concept car with a different paint job and two names.

The HSC concept car was shown with a 300 hp naturally aspirated V6. However, spies found Honda testing one in Germany with a turbo. Shortly after that, Honda came forward and announced that they were terminating the HSC program.

ateixeira

I thought the HSC also was hybrid, though. Guess not.

That thing was pretty wild. It was sooooo low to the ground. You just had to see it in person to appreciate the scale of the HSC.

Seems like they could built it, no? Replace the NSX and use the RL's powertrain.

-juice

varmint

The HSC concept was supposed to be powered by a 300 hp V6. Sounds just like the RL's J35.

I never saw the HSC in person, but did see a few pics with people in the background. It was lower and smaller than the NSX, and probably weighed less than 2,500 lbs. I think the designers intended to borrow the "add lightness" philosophy of the Lotus crowd. When you've seen what Lotus can do with 190 hp, a 300 hp HSC starts to sound very interesting.

However, here in the US horsepower rules. Instead of seeing a super-light car that doesn't need 500 hp to get it moving, the reaction to the HSC was, "Only 300? I can get a Mustang with 300." Honda apparently toyed with the turbo idea, but wasn't satisfied with the results. (Personally, I wonder if they had trouble getting the extra power down to the ground without turning the car into a deer on ice. Attempts as boosting the S2000 have resulted in such unbalanced cars.) Honda decided to scrap the HSC. I have no idea if there is another program is in the works.

varmint

Just something to consider...

Honda can pretty much tune an engine to make as much hp as they want. But it's not so easy with torque. If you look at Honda's naturally aspirated V6 engines, it seems that between 70-75 ft-lbs per liter is the limit. And that's regardless of rpm. Most of the time, the torque peak arrives between 3,500 and 5,000 rpms.

MDX - 72 ft-lbs per liter
TL - 74/liter
RL - 74/liter
Accord - 70/liter
Pilot - 71/liter

Using an average number like 72 ft-lbs per liter, we can guesstimate that the RDX with a J30 will make about 216 ft-lbs. If they use the J32, we'd see about 230 ft-lbs.

anythngbutgm

I don't see Acura getting a 3.0 myself. That has always been for Honda (I know, minus the Auto equipped NSX) with the Accords. The 3.2 is the Acura tried and true V6 (TL, CL) along with the 3.5 for upper end vehicles, and I don't expect to see the 3.5 in the RDX when it is found in the MDX. So I'm putting my money on the 3.2 with AWD, same as the upcoming TL for '06 - '07... :shades:

kyfdx

This makes sense... for the RDX..

Which probably means it won't happen..

I say the TL never gets AWD...

anythngbutgm

Never looked at it that way Varmint. Good assumption based on the TQ vs. Displacment consistency... Thanks for pointing that out, makes total sense!

anythngbutgm

No AWD for the TL? You're joshin me right?

kyfdx

Nope... just my own personal opinion, though...

The TL is their bread and butter car.. they sell a ton of them.. It is the value leader in it's class.. Why screw with success? Adding $2K to the price just puts it closer to the BMW, Audi, Infiniti, etc., etc...

None of those cars can touch the TL for power and value for the dollar.. Why raise your price and invite comparisons? They have the RL for the upscale and AWD crowd...

regards,
kyfdx
(Acura strategic planning expert)

anythngbutgm

I agree, but I think when the TL gets up in years (Not that 3 years means time to replace with a new model) in '07 Acura is going to need to "refresh" with new features to keep the momentum going. An AWD TL would do very well (I think) with the likes of the G35x and IS350 (AWD optional), as well as whom I presume to be Acuras main target, Audi... Not to mention the 325/330xi and C350 4-matic. And they need something to bridge the price gap between the 32k TL and the 50k RL for us not so wealthy folks.

The one hiccup would be Acura going with there typical model route of "all in one, minimal options" which would be all TL's with AWD OR no TL's with AWD... :mad:

varmint

Alright, I've been playing around with more numbers. Keep in mind, this is all just rough estimate stuff... Anyway, this is what we might expect with the J30 engine.

First, I'm assuming that Honda will tweak the J30 for more torque in the lower rpm range. Second, they can't change too much, because they'll want to maintain a decent emissions status (ULEV) and mileage around 20-25 mpg. Third, I'm assuming a torque curve similar in shape to the J30 used in the Accord. I've just shifted it down the curve by 500 rpms. Just remember that a torque curve that peaks earlier, will generally fall off earlier.

Bottom line, this is a pretty conservative estimate, based on a lot of hocus-pocus.

I've assumed the 72 ft-lbs per liter from above, and built a torque based on what Honda has published for the Accord. My mythical RDX engine is producing 216 @4,500 rpms. Peak horsepower would arrive somewhere near 6,000 rpms with about 221 hp. (The Accord's extra rpms are important.)

I know 221 doesn't sound like a whole lot, but it's more than enough to take on the base X3 (185hp).

Three years into the design (the MMC), Acura could push that engine into a more aggressive state of tune. Or perhaps switch to the J32. I don't have a torque plot for the J32, so I can't work that option. (I will only allow my imagination to run so far.)

If Acura takes the road of a more aggressive tune... say... 74ft-lbs per liter... we'd get 222 ft-lbs @ 4,500. Using the same shape torque curve, we'd get a max output of 227 hp @ 6,000 rpms.

So the best way for them to bump up the horsepower is to raise the red-line and put the torque peak in the higher end of the rpm band. Putting the torque peak back at 5,000 rpms (where the Accord keeps it), would produce a theoretical 246 hp @ 6,500 rpms. I suspect going with the J32 is a better option at that point.

kyfdx

Sounds great...

BTW, the base X3 will have 215hp this fall....

I think 220hp will be perfect for the RDX... Unless it ends up weighing 4000 lbs.