Acura RDX

pavlik · February 2005

dewey, I am one of those few in the US that actually CONSIDER Acuras just sensible Hondas, but as you probably know, Honda just does not offer an AWD wagon. Yeah, yeah, RDX is compleeetely not a wagon, a whole different animal, blah.

dewey · February 2005

A AWD Honda Accord wagon with a fuel efficient diesel engine would be my dream car! Dream on, dream on!

varmint · February 2005

True. But if you consider the RDX to be an alternative to a TSX wagon, you ought to consider the CR-V and Element as alternatives to Civic or Accord wagons. Quite a few CR-V owners came from Accords.

armand · February 2005

The CRV really is Honda's AWD wagon.

ateixeira · February 2005

Subarus blend features from different segments so they're cross shopped with all kinds of things. Many Outback owners looked at MDXs, others Camrys. It's strange.

WRX is a fun AWD wagon, so I can see it getting cross shopped, even though it's smaller.

-juice

nippononly · February 2005

"Oh common! Exclusive Acura Luxury Dealerships that have a moat around them in order to cut them off from those Honda masses. A non snob would pick a sensible Honda not an Acura. Yes performance may differentiate a Acura from a Honda, but that does not make Acura different from those snobby German-Swede marques that tend to emphasise performance."

Do people really consider Acura on a level with the German marques in snobbishness? I would hope not. As long as Acura top-line models continue to be sold as Hondas across the rest of the world, they will be nothing here but Hondas with perhaps better customer service. And this coming from an Acura owner. The cars sold here as Acuras ARE nice because they have the level of attention to detail that Honda should still have, but doesn't.

As such the RDX as a luxo-version of the CRV makes perfect sense - I am surprised Honda didn't do this sooner. They let BMW beat them to the punch with the X3.

I WOULD say that CRV is Honda's AWD wagon.

varmint · February 2005

I don't consider Acura to be on the same level as BMW, MB, or Lexus. But they aren't on the same plane as ordinary Hondas or Toyotas, either. Just like BWMs do not have the same snob factor as a Rolls Royce or Bently.

There's a mid-level luxury tier. Marques like Infiniti, Volvo, Saab, Cadillac, and a few others will fall into that range. You can call them wannabe luxury if you like. Or you could call them luxury cars for people who could care less about what is parked in the driveway of the Jones family.

In recent years, Acura seems to be doing a nicer job of distancing themselves from the Honda product line. But they do have a way to go before the perception of the buying public catches up with the reality.

As for Acuras being badged as Hondas in other markets... Sorry, I don't think it matters one bit. I mean, BMWs are taxi cabs in other countries. That doesn't impact their snob appeal here.

ateixeira · February 2005

Mercedes also has the A-class econobox. They never brought it here for fear it would hurt their image as a top-tier luxury brand.

-juice

bodble2 · February 2005

They're selling the Smart Fortwo here. Everyone knows that's made by MB.

nippononly · February 2005

they decided against bringing Smart to America?

Well, if RDX has a little snob appeal, it puts it in a class of two, along with X3. At least for now. It would be weird to see a Lexus version of the RAV.

varmint · February 2005

There's also the Freelander. Not quite the same kind of performance ideal as the X3 and RDX, but it is a small, near-lux SUV.

Some might argue that the Mercury Mariner (Escape clone) would fall into this category, but I think that's a stretch.

kyfdx · February 2005

I went to the car show last weekend..

I know the Freelander comes up short in acceleration and room.. but, it is a pretty nice little package at $30,7XX for the SE model.. This included leather, moonroof, etc..

If there were greater concentrations of Land Rover dealerships (and if they were even remotely reliable), they would give the new RDX a run for its money.

In fact, I'm hoping for the RDX to be just like it... only with a little more cargo/rear seat room, and better power... and, of course, Honda reliability..

If they can do that for the same price, they will fly out of the showrooms...

regards,
kyfdx

varmint · February 2005

It's not that the Freelander isn't nice. It's just sporty in a very different manner. The RDX and X3 make with the sporty thing on the road. The Freelenader does it off the road. Hence the feel of the vehicles and their capabilities are very different.

ateixeira · February 2005

The LR3 moved way upscale so it's fair to expect the next Freelander to move up to fill the void.

Acura has to plan the RDX to compete with future models, not today's.

-juice

kyfdx · February 2005

I wouldn't bet on that... How long did they have the Discovery? 9 years?

The Freelander just came out in '02... I'm betting on it soldiering on for another 3-4 years, at least, without major changes...

And despite that being the only direct competition for the RDX, I doubt they are shooting for their customers.. I think they are looking more for move up CR-V buyers... People that want more luxury, but don't want to go bigger, like the Highlander or MDX.

I don't think the Freelander has enough customers to go after.. It isn't exactly a success.. (though, I seem to be enamored of it... I might be the only one).

regards,
kyfdx

varmint · February 2005

The Freelander was first introduced back in 1996 or 1997. It simply wasn't brought to our shores until '02. So the design is pretty old and ready for update. The X3 is already a generation ahead of the Freelander. I expect the RDX will be as well.

Now, if Rover decides to move leaps and bounds with the Freelander, they may very well price it out of competition with the RDX. In which case, the point is moot.

ateixeira · February 2005

LOL...true, they have long life cycles.

The Freelander just got a major freshening, so who knows how long it'll be out.

My point was they have to aim beyond today's competition, else it'll seem outdated before you know it.

-juice

steveaccord · February 2005

I would like to add a couple of additional segments to your list of target audience for the RDX:

.....
5. Women (my experience with my circle of friends is that it is always the wife that wants to seat high while driving!).
6. Men and women that shop with safety considerations in mind (AWD, the SH varietal of course, and ACE should be both present in these model among other safety features).
7. People concerned for the environment (if engine performance will bear on the 'green' side).

An additional consideration I can make is for those leaving in urban settings where parking comes at a premium and a larger SUV could create an issue!
Needless to say that all of the above apply to my situation!! lol :-)
Truly,

Steve

pavlik · February 2005

Hey, I think I got lost in the shuffle! Maybe as a person not just considering this academically, but willing to buy if the RDX is what I want, I should extend again our market segment #2 (TSX fans who want a wagon) to those who want a fun AWD wagon (that does not clearly look like an SUV).

I know that the distinction between a wagon and an SUV and the idea of "fun" are both subjective, but the suggestion that the CRV is a fun wagon does absolutely not engage my wallet. The CRV appeals to me neither as fun (torque/weight) nor as a wagon. IMO, the RDX promises the looks, but the fun department is the unknown.

aaykay · February 2005

Just commenting on a statement earlier that stated that the Infiniti FX35 and the Nissan Murano are the same platform.

They are not. Completely different platforms, even though the DOHC 3.5L engine that they share is pretty much the same.

I personally would be satisfied with a CRV equipped with a Navigation system (unavailable currently), a bit more power/torque and the SH-AWD system. Anything else is just fluff, IMO. If that package can come in at around 30K, I would buy one. Else I would skip and seriously consider the other alternatives in the market like the Outback 3.0H6 (250 HP) etc., that would be coming with a Navigation from the next model year.

anythngbutgm · March 2005

Got my new MT the other day and in it is a small exerpt about the upcoming RDX. They are claiming power will come from a 260hp Turbo (I think 4 cyl)??? I heard Honda was going to start dabbling in Turbo's but it seems a bit against their philosophy and VTEC...

varmint · March 2005

Honda has considered the use of turbo-charging for a while. It was considered for the S2000 back in the late 1990's.

My concern with the turbo is fuel consumption. I'd rather not see 18-24 mpg in an RDX when the MDX is likely to do the same. A V6 shoe-horned under the hood could get better economy and emissions with the addition of VCM.

So, yes, Honda could use a turbo. Will it produce the 260/260 figures they published? Doubt it. Even if MT had gotten those numbers from a reliable source, the engine will likely be retuned before release.

rsholland · March 2005

Here's the new Euro-Civic, or at least a very near production-ready version.

http://www.autoweek.com/files/specials/2005_geneva/civic/pages/1.- htm

I would not be a bit surprised if this comes over here as an entry-level Acura sedan, much like the Euro-Accord came over as the Acura TSX.

Frankly, I think this car looks absolutely stunning. If it came over hereand with the RL's SH-AWD, and the rumored all-new 2.4 turbolook out WRX!

I will absolutely die and have gone to heaven if Subaru's next-generation Impreza has the visual presence that this car has!

Bob

Edit:
Arugh! What's with Edmunds these days? I've notice whenever I post a link, it doesn't post correctly. And it's not just me, as II've had this same problem with links others have posted here. It's not a problem I have posting links on other sites, only Edmunds!

So please delete the "- " before the "htm" on end of that link.

ateixeira · March 2005

A turbo can be fuel efficient, it's all in how they tune the engine and then the gearing.

-juice

pavlik · March 2005

Bob, I am having trouble getting the door count to five. This Civic looks like a hatch too close to the RSX.

I fear that the WRX is probably safe. Honda/Acura can always be relied on to withhold something or other when it comes to offering a WRX competitor.

ateixeira · March 2005

I also think it overlaps a bit with the RSX, but by the time it comes out they might have a new RSX as well, or maybe even discontinue it since I never felt that car fit in to the Acura lineup.

-juice

rsholland · March 2005

Bob, I am having trouble getting the door count to five.

Rear door handles are up in the black area by the window, a la Nissan SUVs.

BTW, I started a thread specific to this vehicle in the Future Models forums.

rsholland, "New entry-level Acura 4-door?" #3, 2 Mar 2005 1:12 pm

Bob

rsholland · March 2005

Or...

This could be the next RSX, if they should decide to offer a 4-door version?

The thing is... this car looks like a 2-door, but is in fact a 4-door, so I see this as a possible replacement for the RSX.

Bob

varmint · March 2005

True enough, but that often requires other compromises. For example, a turbo might be "delayed" or staged in such a way that the engine behaves largely like an NA, but spools up for more aggressive situations at higher rpms. That's not unlike the original kick-in-the-pants VTEC changeover in Honda's older engines.

The car is docile and fuel efficient in normal driving and a monster when you provoke it.

But the RDX is meant to be an urban SUV. Such an engine would not be great for utility or around-town driving. The first gen CR-V was certainly capable when you flogged it, but still received criticism for not having a strong enough bottom end.

When you consider that the RDX is intended to be a performance-oriented vehicle, the need for a more balanced drivetrain becomes more salient.

Regardless, the most common forms of turbo-charging (without getting fancy) have not been proven to be fuel efficient. Take the Forester XT vs VUE Redline. The turbo Forester is significantly lighter and smaller, but gets a lower EPA rating. In fact, the estimates for the Subaru Tribeca (H6 powered mid-size vehicle) aren't far from the turbo Forester.

So, while it is certainly possible to have a fuel-efficient turbo engine, the bulk of performance turbos love the pump.

varmint · March 2005

Reliable rumor-mongers are forecasting the end of the RSX/Integra worldwide. The Civic Si (coupe) and Type R (hatch) will continue in various markets.

ateixeira · March 2005

We agree about that - for an SUV, especially when you might be carrying a heavy load, turbo lag might be a nuisance.

But I can imagine a light-boost variant of the 2.4l engine that the CR-V gets.

Forester XT is geared improperly, way too short basically. Final drive is in the 4.7:1 range. Using a 4.1 ratio alone would boost mileage figures and it would still be plenty quick.

Basically I don't think the engine is the problem, it's the final drive.

WRX is an LEV and gets 20/27 mpg. It can be accomplished.

-juice

varmint · March 2005

WRX is a car. Give it the aerodynamics of an SUV, add some weight, require it to have some basic tow capacity and it's EPA figures would likely drop below the Forester XT.

Meanwhile a V6 powered MDX (4,000+ lbs) gets pretty much the same mileage.

If they can shoe-horn a V6 under the hood of the RDX (that's a big if), it would likely offer 250hp with smooth torque and get 21-26 mpg. So I'd prefer the V6.

ateixeira · March 2005

VW's 1.8T gets up to 24/31, though that's just not enough displacement to move an RDX sized vehicle.

Volvo's S40 T5 gets up to 22/31.

On both cases AWD makes those numbers drop.

My guess is an RDX with any kind of turbo would be in the high teens city, low 20s highway.

A small V6 might be slightly better, but not much.

-juice

kyfdx · March 2005

the 3.0 litre V-6 out of the Accord..

Maybe with some new techno tweaks.. They can even de-tune it to 220 HP, as it has gobs of torque.. and, fairly fuel efficient, as well..

Maybe weight/balance would be a problem, though?

regards,
kyfdx

ateixeira · March 2005

Dunno, I doubt a 2.4l turbo would be much lighter than that 3l V6.

A V6 would give more linear power delivery, quicker throttle response, and maybe a tad better mileage.

Turbo would have more punch on-boost and better power at altitude. Maybe a little lighter?

The US market generally prefers sixes, though it's hard to forecast. New Outbacks offer both, and turbos are more popular on that model. RDX would be similar size and weight if you think about it.

Subaru dealers now have discount the H6 models so that they are cheaper than the turbos (MSRP was higher). So turbos do have a certain appeal.

That's an exception, though. Volvo just put out a V8 because its turbos weren't enough for some. And Subaru's success might just be because there are fewer turbo options, but plenty of V6s.

-juice

aaykay · March 2005

One model in the Subaru lineup that does not have a 6 cylinder is the Legacy GT. The 3.0L H6 is just 35lbs heavier than the 2.5L Turbo H4. If they equipped the Legacy GT with the H6 engine and added a Navigation system - everything else remaining the same, I would buy it in a heart-beat.

rsholland · March 2005

If they equipped the Legacy GT with the H6 engine and added a Navigation system - everything else remaining the same, I would buy it in a heart-beat.

You can, you just have to move to Europe. It's called the Legacy 3.0R Spec B. It's also got a 6-speed manual.

http://www.subaru-global.com/lineup/legacy/legacy_specB/

http://www.subaru-global.com/lineup/legacy/sedan/model/30RB.html

Or if you prefer the 5-speed automatic w/SportShift...

http://www.subaru-global.com/lineup/legacy/sedan/model/30R.html

You can get either in sedan or wagon.

Bob

aaykay · March 2005

Wow ! Why in heaven's name don't they bring that car over to the US ? Just look at those side bolsters in the seats...just what I want. Now the task is to convince the powers-that-be in the Subaru heirarchy to get that bad boy here....specifically the wagon.

ateixeira · March 2005

They might - but like I said, the turbos are selling briskly, Legacy just completed its best sales year ever (so did Subaru).

Dunno, RDX could get either one, maybe both?

dewey · March 2005

Forget the H6 engine. For me a 6 speed Legacy GT would be a great proposition. Why oh why does the Legacy GT have 5 speed? It is supposedly a performance vehicle.

rsholland · March 2005

Why oh why does the Legacy GT have 5 speed?

You may have your wish in a couple of weeks, at the NY auto show.

Bob

ateixeira · March 2005

First press day is March 23.

What will Honda/Acura intro at NY? Wonder if they'll show the euro Civic?

-juice

varmint · March 2005

Doubt it. Why would they when they have a US-bound Civic Si concept to show?

I'm just hoping NY has the RDX. I'm going regardless, but I'll be happier if they have it there.

ateixeira · March 2005

Remind me, where'd the coupe debut? Was it Chicago?

A lot of times they'll bring over a european debut just to gauge interest. Little cars are often ignored so that's the first and only time we see them!

I'll probably be in NY also, trying to plan it now.

-juice

rsholland · March 2005

Yeah, I don't expect to see it here this year.

Bob

dewey · March 2005

"Why oh why does the Legacy GT have 5 speed?
You may have your wish in a couple of weeks, at the NY auto show."

Hope you are right!

anythngbutgm · March 2005

I'm actually making it a point to go twice just to see everything. The RDX is right at the top of my most anticipated new models to see (along with the AMV8 of course). I'm expecting a very large crowd of Honda enthusiasts are looking forward to the new Civic and RDX.

ateixeira · March 2005

It was sealed off at NAIAS. Looked great in person, though.

Hopefully it'll be there and open in NY. When they got the Model X concept it was up on a stand but at least you could get close and see inside.

-juice

varmint · March 2005

The interior is more or less 100% conceptual, anyway. While the sheetmetal is not exactly production, it is supposed to be very close to the production look. I'd like to be able to walk around it and get a good look, but I could care less about getting to see an interior that will never make production.

kyfdx · March 2005

So.. are we looking for an '06 model this fall? Or an '07 model in the Fall of '06?

I lose track between the new 3-series, 1-series, and the new Lexus IS...

Acura RDX

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