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Comments
Honda and Toyota have a lot of catching up to do to barely match the overall performance and refinement.
The Sonata has 6,200 body welds, about TWO THOUSAND more than the Camry's(4,300).
How about paint? Matching the quality of the 18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat is simply out of the question. They don't have the Rho-dip facility. Only one other plant in N. America has one.
There are other stuff left out in the consumer brochures like the PWM-controlled enigne cooling fan because it's too technical.
It's a stepless speed control.
You're not gonna hear the fan kicking in like the Camcords even if you stick your ear close to the grille of the Sonata. The fan itself is quieter and has higher CFM spec than the Camry's.
Simply put, the current Accord and Camry is a generation behind the Sonata in NVH performance and body integrity.
Also the factory is a benchmark, it's the future of auto plants. No fork-lift trucks are there. Material and parts handling is completely automated.
The plant requires only 2,000 workers for 300,000 annual production.
Honda's Alabama plant needs 4000 for their 300,000 max. output. Two thousand more people...think about that.
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/060502.html
"One benefit to the Montgomery operation is the fact that the Sonata has been in production in Korea since September, 2004. Not only has this afforded the Hyundai America people an opportunity to become familiar with the process (the processes and equipment used in the two plants are common), but Krafcek observes that generally, the six months before a vehicle is launched is the time during which there is a flurry of issues that arise and need to be addressed and that the number of these issues then diminishes in the months after launch. Consequently, he maintains, the six months of production in Korea will help the people in Montgomery achieve a stable operation."
If you're considering Sonata, don't worry about the quality.
They are aiming for an IQS score of 80 PP100 for 2006 Sonata. Good enough to put it in top 3 in premium midsze category, I think.
I currently own an 04 LX with the package 7 purchased new in August of 03. It only has 9,600 miles on it and it still looks brand new. Its paid for so I could use this vehicle as a down payment on the new 06 if I wanted. However when I was at the Hyundai dealer last week they pretty much were not interested in doing business because I already own a Sonata.
I am just curious if anyone else got treated this way?
According to Edmunds my 04 Sonata is worth $13,040 on trade. Is this really a realistic trade in allowance? According to the dealer they have so many incentives on 05's they could not give me much for my 04 right now.
From an economic stand point it would make little sense trading in the 04 for the new 06. Its not like an 04 LX is a bad car. However the 06 sure drove nice and handled like a sports sedan I always wanted. If I want an 06 now is about as good a time as any. I could wait for some incentives and possibly do a little better then now but by then my trade will be worth less money.
Just a guess, but I think that the 06 is going to hold its value better. It is a lot more car and seems to be getting great reviews for the most part. Now I don't have a crystal ball and as such, cannot accurately predict the future. It's pure speculation on my part, but if you can work out a good deal on the 06 you should do it. You probably will not regret it, but you will always wonder "what if" if you don't get it.
They are the same company road and track and car and driver that is, but have two different way of explaining this car.
Positive review
backy, "Midsize Import Sedans Comparison Thread" #117, 16 Jul 2005 6:54 pm
Come to think of it, this whole argument about a 'industry benchmark' is subjective in general, don't you think? I do find a lot of Sonata's features to be an industry benchmark. For example, the standard 6 airbags, ESP, etc. should be lauded because from what I know, the Sonata is the only vehicle in it's price point to offer ESP standard.
And what exactly makes an 'industry benchmark' vehicle? Is it the number of features, or the powerfulness of the engine? If, say, the Sonata came standard with navigational system, AWD, sonar rear sensor, dvd player, and all these hi-tech gadgets, would it be considered an 'industry benchmark' by simply offering these features?
And how do you expect a 25,000$ to be ANY better? Are you expecting the next generation of Camcords to handle just as well as a ES/TL?
Nowadays, I'm not even sure if its possible to set a 'industry benchmark'. Especially in the midsize category.
Based on the people snapping up '06 Sonatas in its first few weeks on the market, with few incentives or discounts available, it appears that for some people, Hyundai has done enough by trumping the competition on safety features, room, price, and warranty and maybe more depending on the eye of the beholder. When the usual discounts and rebates kick in (which they will, since the competition offers them and people expect them), the price difference will widen and the Sonata will be an even greater value than it is now.
My brother & I both pegged the high volume, high pressure dealership to be a Toyota dealer. The car has a reputation which they play off. For those who know how to buy a car, the dealerships also have a reputation. LOL!
They even try the race card. A golf buddy of mine, who is black, tells about the time he and his wife went to buy a Toyota for her. It was a rainy night, and a black salesman hooked on to them. When the salesman wanted much more than my friend was willing to pay and was ready to walk, the sales manager came in for the kill. "Mr. [blank] (althought the sales manager had never met my friend he knew his name), this man came out in the rain to help you buy a car. He needs to make a sale. Do you want to deprive this brother from making a living?" My friend told this caucasian sales manager what he and the salesman could do with their high pressure, overpriced best offer. He bought a Mazda.
Read the story and if you've tried to buy a Toyota, I'm sure you will see many familiar things. True, this could be any make, but Toyota seems like the perfect fit.
Went to a very large Toyota dealership that sells 700 cars a month in Southern Calif. I was paying cash. I went in with my trade (I knew what it was worth) and I knew what their car invoiced at. The whole negotiation process took an hour. I have purchased three cars during the last six months for family members. I am in industrial sales, while I don't need to play games in my business, nothing, and I mean NOTHING gets by me in the car buying process.
1) TOO DARN LOUD! It transmits road noise, and a lot of it. WAY too loud. I don't care if magic elves make the car and if its NVH is the best in the world, the car is just TOO, TOO loud. And THAT'S a deal breaker for me and two of my friends. (My one buddy said the Camry is much quieter, while Accords are somewhat loud.)
2) Radio stinks. The car couldn't play a strong, local FM station (one I'd listen to all the time). Even a station it did play sounded poor. My computer speakers sound better, and they're cheap-o speakers.
Don't forget that Car and Driver has instrumented sound level testing measuring just how loud the vehicle gets inside. The numbers are very close to the Lexus GS 430 and better than the Acura RL, Infinity M45, and some other luxury cars (very refined company)
Anyway, this was my SUBJECTIVE opinion as well as the SUBJECTIVE opinion of two friends of mine (in the back seat). (Interestingly, the salesman wanted me to pull off on the exit BEFORE the county line, where the highway is newer. I decided to go another mile and crossed the county line where the roadway is older. More torn up by the studded tires from winter. There, the noise was super loud.)
On smooth pavement (from what I've read from a lot of people on this list), the Sonata is quiet enough. But on less than ideal road surfaces, I and my friends found it to be way too loud.
I hope the higher priced cars you listed are better at quieting road noise on less than ideal surfaces!
As to my second point, concerning the radio... It stunk!
http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/23/technology/xm_hyundai/
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/03/23/018968.html
http://news.com.com/Hyundai+to+fit+XM+Satellite+in+all+models/2100-1041_3-5631470.html
I'm trying to decide if I should make the plunge now and buy one... or if I should wait until November when the Azera and the Sonata XM/Navigation units should be coming out. I'd say by then the Sonata will have a rebate(?) and I can then get the navigation system factory installed without worries. but that's 3-4 months away... can I wait that long!
**** Can any dealer on here pls verify that Hyundai will come out with XM/and navi's on the sonatas around the time the Azera arrives (November?)
My concern is when folk make statements that appear to be contrary to what a lot of the experts who do these tests for a living state. I once read that the previous generation Sonata was not a true mid-size sedan and now someone else thinks the 2006 version does not qualify as a large sedan even though the interior classification by the EPA deems it to be so.
Like I said before, I really doubt that Hyundai will offer factory-installed navi for the 2006 Sonata. It's a major option that will probably be saved for the 2007 or even 2008 model year. If a navi was going to be offered for the new Sonata so close to its unveiling I'm sure you would have seen it listed in the brochure as a "late introduction availability" option. All I have heard is rumors and innuendo. Nothing concrete, nothing substantial.
dcibrando, didn't you say you would be driving a new Sonata with navi by the middle of July? What happened to that scenario? Did the Hyundai service department ever get the navi systems to install in the Sonata? I didn't and still haven't heard any official announcement from Hyundai indicating that navi was available for the Sonata, even as a dealer installed option.
Like I said before, you are setting yourself up for a huge letdown. Already the promise of getting a Sonata with navi has been pushed back from July to "possibly" November. What will you do when November comes around and navi still isn't available for the Sonata?
If you really want navi in the Sonata, then bite the bullet and wait. You may be waiting for over a year, but judging from the tone of your posts if you buy a Sonata now without navi you will really regret it once Hyundai makes the option available.
I agree with that. There is no question about the expert drivers being opinionated. These opinions are largely in the area of driving dynamics. Matters like interior sound levels cannot be subject to opinion when instruments are used to measure the basic sound level parameters. If a certain sound level is measured, it should not be subject to manipulation. Like they say "book no lie".
Expert reviews ought to serve as a guide generally. Making a determination as to which car one prefers ought to be dependent on one's own preferences. Some cars handle better than others, while others are much more softly sprung and tend to provide softer ride characteristics, etc. The experts are generally better equiped to provide measurable statistics like road handling, interior sound levels, real world 0-60 times quarter mile time, etc.
Since all other data provided such as handling, interior db and quarter times are measurable those statistics are generally good estimates to go by.
Yes, my opinion is subjective. No, I didn't have a sound meter. It was just my opinion and the opinion of two friends of mine. (One just bought a new Toyota Tacoma pickup, which I think is really quiet! The other owns a Honda Accord, bought brand new, 8 or 10 years ago?)
They, and I, thought the car was just too loud on the road for our tastes. This is really disappointing, because I had researched the car to death.
My experience with a Ed Kim, an Advanced Planning Manager in California (by phone and email) has been A+++. If it were solely based on my interactions with him, I'd buy a Hyundai in a second. He's been the best. Very responsive, very helpful. (In direct contrast to seven months of attempting to get any type of response out of American Honda. The WORST experience ever. They've lost me for the rest of my life (and I and my family have had two Hondas in the past...))
I LOVE the fact that the Sonata has anti-whiplash headrests. VERY few cars have this. This car is decked out in safety features as well as a Volvo. (Regardless, I was going to wait to see how the crash tests turn out. See http://www.safecarguide.com/mak/mak.htm )
Anyway, but for the noise and the radio (and, I guess, the mileage), I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
(The experiences I've had with two local Hyundai dealerships have been less than stellar. In one, the salesman was wearing a Lexus jacket. When I asked, "Would you buy this car?", he said, "No, I like my Yukon better." Hmmm.... Nothing like investing the prospective customer with enthusiasm. The other dealership was better, but only marginally so. The salesman was young, cursed a lot, and didn't seem to know much about the cars.) But Hyundai corporate is GREAT!
Manager, Advanced Planning
The noise thing is puzzling though. Totally different from my experience--exactly the same car. Will you drive on that type of road often?
As a result, the roads are not smooth and quiet like (I'm guessing) Arizona or wherever. They're rough and loud.
Any car probably sounds good on smooth roads. It's the 'real' roads--the rough roads--that test the soundproofing of the car. (All the test results showing up on the net and in magazines were done out near San Francisco, for the most part. I lived there once, and as I recall, the roads were better than they are here.)
So we were testing the 'quieter' tires...
Regarding the salesman, he may have been 'honest', but I didn't care for him. At least wear your own company's logo!
I love the timing chain. I wish the mirrors were breakaway, though. I just see that as a potential thing that breaks...
I think Hyundai should lead with the safety features. If the active head restraints work as I hope, that alone could be worth the price of admission. (Neck/back problems so, so common for rear-end accidents. If all cars had Saab/Volvo (hopefully Sonata) style seats, so much injury (and costs) would be avoided.) Stability Control, side airbags, etc. FANTASTIC!
Wish the USA version came with middle headrest.
Wish it were quieter (subjective) inside. Wish the radio were better. Wish rear seats had side torso bags. Wish mileage were better.
If it had all the wishes, it would be the best car ever! (Well, a hybrid engine would be better, or, BEST OF ALL, a QuasiTurbine http://auto.howstuffworks.com/quasiturbine1.htm [NO ONE has this. But look out. In 20 to 40 years...])
It seems to me like a very reasonable comparison as well, based on a well defined price-point instead of the usual number-of-cylinder matching. (or even worse, tranny matching like the one they did on Audi A4 2.0T and BMW 330i) I always thought that car comparisons should take price into account more, as they are consumer products, not designer jewelry.
This really is a kick in the butts for Honda and Toyota. Maybe they should stop increasing the price and do something with those steel wheels and rear drum breaks for 20k+ cars.
It is true like some shirt colors match certain people, certain colors could make the car that much better.
I recommend, the aqua, black, white, grey, basically any other colors rather than beige and light silver.
my suggestion
This feature works great, at about 16 MPH all my doors lock with a nearly silent click. Makes me feel a little safer with the kids in the car. I asked why it wasn't enabled by default and the service manager said because there are so many speed settings they want to have the customer choose it would have been nice had they mentioned it at the time of sale to save me a trip but I think I'm the one who clued them in to this feature thanks to this very Forum. So if you are buying a 2006 Sonata you may want to have them activate this feature before you drive off.
Here are some "issues" I asked the service manager about...
Water spots! On the Black trim around the doors I ended up with water spots! I tried to be a careful as possible by using soft water, Meguires NXT car wash, wash mitt, microfiber drying towels and doing the first wash late in the day in the shade! Even with all this precuations the water spots showed up nearly instantly on the Black trim. I dried the car right away but it was too late. Tried using white vinegar and it lessened the spots but they are still there, tried Meguires plastic and vinyl dressing which made everything blacker but the spots are still there. I did another full wash about a week later and didn't notice any new spots (probably because of the Meguires dressing and extra quick drying attention to that area) but the old spots are still there. It isn't horrible by any means but rather dissapointing that this trim is so very sensitive to the water used. I mean between final hosing and drying that area the first time , maybe talking two to three minutes tops in the shade!
I asked the service manager if he had a solution and he listed everything that I already tried (rewash, dressing, vinegar). He said it was probably the mineral content of my water, even though it is soft he suspected the mineral count was high. He says at the dealership they use virtualy distilled water (less than 9ppm minerals) to do all their washes. He als shook his head and said "I don't know why they (Hyundai) does this... it is a DECAL see the seam. So I guess this trim DECAL is a sensitive part of my car. I guess worst case scenario if it gets bad I should be able to get a new trim decal applied. Like I said it isn't horrible but rather a dissapointment, very first car wash with all the precautions... come on! My strong suggestion to all who have yet to wash their new Sonata's put some sort of dressing or protectant on that trim!!! Maybe even wax would help otherwise don't be surpised to have some water spots show up there.
BTW.. If any of you have any good remedies for water spotting on black plastic decal trim please share!
MP3 text function...
As I said earlier I LOVE the MP3 capability of this car, over 72 hours worth of stuff (music and podcasts) at my fingertips! BTW I bought my wife a RIO 5 GB MP3 player with a wireless FM transmitter (about $175 total) so she won't feel left out in her van or anywhere else. But regarding the ability to list the album and artist (part of the mp3 filename) in my Sonata all I get is a blank entry. The other items show up fine like song title or directory name and jumping from one to another is a piece of cake. The service manager said it is probably becuse my CDR's are homemade and it is the "encoding". He said it is the same in his own truck. I don't see why Rio or Ipod can do it and Hyundai's player can't if you are burning CDR's.
Paint... Like I've said before the BLACK is a gorgeous color. One problem is after a wash (and Nu Finish) the car picked up dust daily, it was so dusty in six days I had to do a second wash. I'll tell you one thing, Nu Finish does a terrific job of beading the water it was very easy tho sheet the water off the car with a low flow. Good stuff. After this wash when it was parked in my garage under lights I noticed LOTS of micro scratches in the car finish. Now again I was being EXTRA careful as mention before in my wash routine but still I likely caused some of these microscratches and I'm sure some were there before I took delivery. Keep in mind you cannot see these scratches just looking at the car normally, they show up under a flashlight in the dark and they are everywhere! I checked our 6 year old Windstar (medium Blue metallic) and could not see any microscratches on that paint color as it probably hides them quite well... Black shows all as I'm sure other dark colors will.
I read a lot about the Zaino treatments and decided they are worth a try to keep my Black Sonata looking great. I ordered ZFX and Z5(polish for minor swirls) plus their finish spray and car wash. Hopefully after a dawn wash and a Mothers clay then a Zaino wash and a few layers of Z5 maybe this will be the ticket! Another new item I added to my arsenal is the original California Car Duster. What a GREAT purchase!!! ($9.99 at wally world) Just dust the car once a day and I can put off washing by at least a week or more! The car looks just washed still and it has been 4 days... no dust and no new micro scratches. I think putting off washing as long as possible is another way to reduce the chances of new micro marring. Would I choose a differnt color if I had to do it over again?? NO! Because the car when clean looks awesome (I've seen Deepwater Blue and it is gorgeous but would choose Black again) and most of these micro imperfections are so minor no one would likely notice them. Just have to be resigned to dusting daily, washing when needed and Zaino treatments twice a year.
Gas Mileage...
Ok so I'm on my third tank of gas and so far according to my trip computer I'm only averaging 17.9MPG! I looked at the widow sticker of my car and it states that my car should achieve between 17 and 23 city and 25 and 35 highway. Most of my commuting this tank was less than 10 minutes to work (1/2 city 1/2 hwy), local trips around town and one longer highway trip to the Hyundai dealer (about 70 miles roundtrip). This tank from the get go started slow 15-16 MPG and gradually went up to 17.9. My last tank I got 20.5 MPG. Now I am not street racing as i am still obeying the under 4000 RPM rule. I am using the AC a lot as it has been hot. The car is in their "expected range" in terms of City driving, but I sure was hoping for mid-twenty gas mileage. Hope this "feature" improves with the engine breaking in and a switch to Mobil 1 in the near future.
Still... with all these "issues" I would not change a thing. I LOVE this car. Still highly recommended even at MSRP.
Thanks for all the info, because I'm planning to purchase a Sonata in the next few months, though I think I'll try beige because it hides road dirt and dust best (Hey, my favorite ice cream is vanilla, so go figure...).
My daughter, in her first job after law school, bought a silver 2005 Sonata GL with the V6 for about $13,900, and she loves it. Roomy and pretty quiet. It rides nicely, too. And she's got front and side airbags.
I'm wondering what you think of automatic "touchless" car washes that don't use any cloths or brushes. Don't think I have the time or inclination to care for a car at the same level as you.
Hope you can get rid of the micro-scratches and swirls, and that you enjoy trouble-free driving for many, many years.
Bob
As a side note, Zaino is good, but I'm going to try a product from Germany called Klasse. It has been around for many years and is similar to Zaino, but seems to be less labor intensive to apply and maintain than Zaino. My Klasse order arrived last week, but I haven't used it yet due to other priorities. I'll let you know how it compares to Zaino. Also be aware that if you watch some of the detailing forums, you can get in on a Zaino group purchase and save yourself some bucks. Have fun detailing your Sonata!! :shades:
No... the autolock engages and locks the doors when the car reaches the preset speed. You can unlock any and all doors from inside the car without setting off the alarm.
Well, after the rain stopped I backed it outside...and guess what... NO MORE SCRATCHES!!! I felt like a moron for calling the dealer now... but that is exactly what I am experiencing as well. A bunch of scratches showing up under the lights if you look just right... but don't worry guys... it's no big deal when you're outside