Insurance and NJ No-Point Ticket option

ballchaser

I don't know what Piscataway traffic court is like now, but some years ago it was a kangaroo court, with a particularly sadistic judge named Gazi.

Most courts will let you plead down a speeding ticket to under 15 MPH over the limit, which carries 2 points, and will not affect your insurance if it's the only ticket in the next 39 months (the time period for insurance points to be expunged, which is different from driver license points in NJ). If the judge doesn't let you plead down, you might request a continuance so you may engage an attorney for the matter, then find a Piscataway lawyer with good connections to the judge.

Good luck.

ballchaser

In NJ the courts have the option of amending a ticket to a no-point unsafe driving offense, which costs close to $500, it's part of McGreevy's money making scams against motorists (NJ has been reported as the biggest speed trap state in the union).

However, you might want to check the basis of the ticket. As I recall the NJ drivers manual stated that passing on the right is permitted on a multi-lane road.

Good luck

exm

This is my situation:
Last week, on my wife’s birthday (!) she got pulled over by a cop stating that she ran a stop sign. She, like everybody else, comes to a near stop and then decides to fully stop or go. According to the law, you need to complete to a complete stop but that is unheard of these days. Another cop pulled over another car right behind her, so obviously the cops needed to fulfill their end-of-month quota.

She is planned to go to court and accept a not guilty plea-deal, but she noticed something interesting: the cop wrote down the wrong street corner at the ticket. Is this something she can use in court? I know that ‘it was my birthday’ or ‘I did not run the stop sign’ won’t work…

qbrozen

What is at the corner he DID write down? If its still a stop sign, then it doesn't matter. You can't prove that she wasn't at the intersection the cop says she was at, but if its an intersection that has no stop sign, then you'd obviously have a leg to stand on.

I strongly suggest saying things in court like "everybody does it" and "the cop needed to fill a quota."

I make sure to point out to my wife any time she rolls through a stop. Its not worth a ticket to save 1.5 seconds of time to make a complete stop.

rav2

Hi All,

Couple of days back, I was supposedly speeding, going 47 in a 30 mph zone, and then after a few hundred feet, immediately turned left on a traffic light when it was yellow. I dint know I was being followed when I ran the light on yellow. At the next light, cop stops me and tickets me, one for speeding and the other for the yellow light (I asked me why for the yellow light; he told me turning on yellow onto U.S hwy is punishable..The ticket says 'failure to stop or yield'..Is this correct?) All of this was in Montville, NJ..Anyone been to the court there?

Anyway, speeding is 4 points, and the light stuff is 2 points. I have the hearing on 20th nov. Now, I can try to reduce the 4 to a 2 by talking to the prosecutor..But what about the other 2 for the light? Date of hearing for both is the same time.

Ideally, I want to see if i can reduce 4 to a 2, and the 2 to a 0. Has any one had such back-to-back ticket problems solved?

I am planning to take a defensive driving course anyway. Would it useful to take it even before I go to court, or is it something you tell the prosecutor/judge that you'd do it in exchange for point reduction..Also, how much is it costing for plea bargain now, on an average?

Would appreciate any help!
thanks

qbrozen

I never heard of the yellow light BS. It makes no sense, really. But, then again, there are plenty of laws that don't make sense. Anyway, failure to stop or yield is a very broad category. If he says its punishable, then it has to be on the books somewhere if its true. I have a feeling he's making it up.

Ok... i decided to do some searching on this. Here are the statutes that I believe apply to your situation:

39:4-105. Color system
Traffic signals or signal devices shall conform strictly with the provisions of this article.

A three-color system shall be used; red, amber and green. Green means permission for traffic to go, subject to the safety of others or the specific directions of an officer, official sign or special signal. Red means traffic to stop before entering the intersection or crosswalk and remain standing until green is shown alone, unless otherwise specifically directed to go by an officer, official sign or special signal. Amber, or yellow, when shown alone following green means traffic to stop before entering the intersection or nearest crosswalk, unless when the amber appears the vehicle or street car is so close to the intersection that with suitable brakes it cannot be stopped in safety. A distance of fifty feet from the intersection is considered a safe stopping distance for a speed of twenty miles per hour, and vehicles and street cars if within that distance when the amber appears alone, and which cannot be stopped with safety, may proceed across the intersection or make a right or left turn unless the turning movement is specifically limited.

All other uses of green, red, amber or yellow lights so located as to be confused with traffic signals shall be discontinued.

39:4-115. Making right or left turn
The driver of a vehicle or the motorman of a streetcar a. intending to turn to the right or left at an intersection where traffic is controlled by traffic control signals or by a traffic or police officer, shall proceed to make either turn with proper care to avoid accidents and, except as provided in b. below, only upon the "Go" signal unless otherwise directed by a traffic or police officer, an official sign or special signal; or b. intending to turn right at an intersection where traffic is controlled by a traffic control signal shall, unless an official sign of the State, municipality, or county authority having jurisdiction over the intersection prohibits the same, proceed to make the turn upon a "Stop" or "Caution" signal with proper care to avoid accidents after coming to a full stop, observing traffic in all directions and yielding to all pedestrians and other traffic traveling in a direction in which the turn will be made. Both the approach for and the turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless such intersection is otherwise posted.

SO ... if you read all of this literally, you ARE supposed to stop on a yellow, but ONLY if you can do so in a safe manner. In other words, it seems to me, if the officer feels you could have stopped, then he can ticket you.(?) Seems like a very subjective kind of law.

rav2

Thanks for that..But what do you think of me being able to talk to the prosecutor about reducing points on both offenses, considering it's at the same court time?

Also, any idea about Montville, NJ, or does the 2 point pardon in exchange for extra fine/surcharge, apply to all municipal courts in NJ?

qbrozen

It all depends on the day, weather, and what the prosecutor had for breakfast.

In other words, your guess is as good as mine. If he likes you, he may bargain you a break. If not, then he won't.

But, yes, you can pretty much gurantee that if they reduce your points, you'd pay a higher fine. That's just how it typically works.

you MAY have a good shot at getting what you're hoping for. It all depends, like I said. As it stands, you are only a couple of mph into the 4-point range. So a slight speed reduction will get you down to 2 points for speeding. And, maybe you can convince the prosecutor to go for a zero-point fine in exchange for that light thing. But just be curteous and see what he offers. If he gives you a hard time, only then would I bring up the whole "turning on a yellow" question.

tidester

Seems like a very subjective kind of law.

Not entirely. 39.4-105 did specify a particular speed and distance and, from that, distances can be extrapolated for other (legal) speeds. Of course, the burden is on the officer to submit some evidence of what your speed and distance were. The subjectivity enters when the evidence, or lack thereof, goes unchallenged in the court.

tidester, host

qbrozen

exactly. Its all a matter of your word against his ... and I'll give you one guess as to who gets the benefit of the doubt. Which is why I say its subjective. considering all that it takes to analyze such a situation, it comes down to "the officer BELIEVES you were at point x travelling at xx mph and the yellow light was illuminated for x.x seconds, blah, blah, blah." There's no way any human can account for all of that, therefore its open to subjective reasoning.

Its like when I got a ticket for "following too close." Well, how can that be proven? Is there a photo of me driving too close and has a photo expert examined it and extrapolated within 1 inch how close I was following? Of course not. But there's not a damned thing you can do to fight it. They implicitly trust the officer's opinion.

vpotluri

Couple of weeks ago I was given my first ticket (in 19 years of driving) by a cop who said I made an illegal right turn in Jersey City. I got a 3-point ticket. It was rush hour bumper-to-bumper traffic in rain and I didn't see any sign. I told him that and he says the sign was painted on the road. How am I supposed to see a sign on the road in such traffic and conditions? I told him that I didn't see that sign due to traffic. He told me to go to court and tell that to the judge and may be I will get a break.

Firstly, will a 3 point ticket cause my insurance rates to go up for sure? How about those defensive driving courses which supposedly knock off some points? Would getting the ticket reduced to 2 points, not cause my insurance rates to go up?

To my surprise I got 6 letters from attorneys offering free consultation last week. That was surprising. Is it worth hiring one? How much do they charge generally?

My ticket doesn't say my presence is required in court. I intend to plead not guilty. I could explain myself to the judge that I didn't see a painted sign on the road in bumper-to-traffic in rain. May be I will get a break on the points. Or I could hire an attorney. What should I do?

tidester

Get a copy of the weather report for that day from the National Weather Service, local newspaper and any other source you can think of and show them to the judge. You will need something to support your claim the roads were wet and the signs painted on the road were not visible.

tidester, host

vpotluri

The ticket itself had a check mark next to rain. There was some construction going on in the area and the road was modified into a one lane road using those concrete blocks. May be that is why they didn't have a normal sign on a pole.

Do the prosecutors routinely offer a deal to pay a high surcharge and drop points? I will take that prior to putting myself at the mercy of the judge.

tidester

I will take that prior to putting myself at the mercy of the judge.

I don't live in NJ and I've never faced a prosecutor but, in my experience, judges do listen particularly if you go to court prepared with facts, evidence and a good list of questions for the officer!

tidester, host

qbrozen

hehehe. good thing you don't live in NJ.

the couple of times I've been to court, the judge hasn't even looked at me or asked me any questions. He just looks at the paper in front of him and rambles off whatever he wants to say and sends you on your way.

vpotluri - i would also suggest taking pictures of the area in question. In the rain might be even better.

Does it really say "no turn on red" on the street itself? I've never seen that before.

vpotluri

It isn't a "no turn on red" sign on the road. The lane is supposedly for going straight only. I will have to make a special trip for that.

I would rather pay the surcharge and get it over with.

qbrozen

so... the right lane was for going straight? how were you SUPPOSED to make a right turn? did the officer share that information with you?

vpotluri

There simply wasn't a right turn at that intersection. The right lane MUST go straight according a sign painted on the road which I didn't see due to bumper to bumer traffic.

jblake1

I am looking to contest a ticket which involves going to a municipal court a couple towns away. Will my case be discussed in front of everyone? Just want to be prepared.

I got the ticket recently from a cop that was just hanging out on the side of a local road doing an assembly line ticketing job, probably filling his quota to support his nice noncopcarlooking-SUV

Nobrainer situation though, I do want to contest => 4 pt ticket with no points on my license.

fezo

Your case didn't come up yet....

Likely they will discuss basics in open court - "You were cited for 75 in a 55 and would like to plead guilty to obstruction of traffic" (don't ask how I know that one). Won't go further very likely.

Try to get to the prosecutor before court starts so he isn't surprised. They all know the drill.

eromi78

Hello

Back in September I got a ticket for 'failure to stop'. Since I didn't want the points on my record I went to court and the prosecutor offered to switch the offense to 'Driving in an unsafe manner'. He told me if I plead guilt to that offense I wouldn't have any points on my record. So I plead guilty to 'Driving in an unsafe manner' and paid close to $450 with the hope that all this would go away. However, I was looking into new insurance rates today will Alstate (I am currently under Geico) and they gave me a high rate as they were able to pull up the 'Driving in an unsafe manner' offense on my record. Did I get scammed by the prosecutor? I was reading through the blog, and most people had advised others to take the bargain offered by the prosecutor but I am wondering if this is good idea after all. I mean, I ended up spending close to $450 and it didn't help me with my insurance, furthermore it seems like under this offense I can't afford to get another ticket for five years. Because if I get another ticket within the next five years I am going to get 4 points. I have a really bad feeling about all this and it is driving me insane. I just wanted to know everyone's opinion. Has anybody been in my situation? Please help!

Kirstie_H

I do not know about NJ laws, but in Missouri, to get an offense reduced to where it's not showing up on your records w/points, you have to bargain it to a non-moving violation. I believe "excessive vehicle noise" is the most common, or really expensive parking tickets.

eromi78

I guess i didn't get a good deal then. Fun Fun Fun...
Thanks for the response

qbrozen

did they tell you that you actually have points, though?

according to nj mvc site, that violation only carries points the 3rd time you get cited for it.

ALL tickets show up on your license, so an insurance company will see it no matter what. Typically its the points that bother them, but I could see how they might not like "driving in an unsafe manner."

eromi78

There were no points but they could see the offense. Perhaps it affects your insurance rate when you are a new customer. I am hoping that my current insurance company wouldn't look into my record.

Thanks though, the information you provided regarding the violation made me feel a little better.

pps1

Hi,
Earlier this year received a speeding ticket 39.4.98 going 74 MPH on 50 MPH.( a 4 pointer ) Got a court date in Feb. 07 in North Brunswick Court. Again yesterday received another ticket- failure to observe traffic light ( 2 pointer ) . Court date in march 07 in piscataway court. Thats 2 tickets - 6 points total in 3 weeks. About this 2nd ticket i was passing on an Yellow ..it might have turned red when I was just about on the other side.

I am very concerned and upset. Can anyone help me ? what are my options? i was hoping to get my 1st ticket waived on teh basis of 1st ticket. But, my stupidity , got another ticket.

tidester

i was hoping to get my 1st ticket waived on teh basis of 1st ticket.

I'm not sure what that means but why would you expect either (a) a speeding ticket to be waived because you also got failure to observe citation or (b) a failure to observe to be waived because you also got a speeding ticket? I don't think either will happen.

tidester, host

pps1

Oh....what i meant was. when i got my 1st ticket a 4 pointer( for speeding) , based on what i read and understood, i was hoping to do a plea bargain, pay fine+ surcharge + court fees and hopefully get the ticket down to 2 or no points.

But, again 2 days back I got another ticket a 2 pointer for crossing on yellow light.

That's makes 6 points total.What I am scared of it that the judge who perhaps could have forgiven my 1st ticket and let me go perhaps by just paying dues, is not going to accept my plea bargain , because i got another ticket meanwhile and consider me a habitual reckless driver.

if you could possibly let me know a) what my chances are regarding the plea bargain b) is it possible to get my points reduced?
c)if not , then what sort of trouble I am in , considering insurance rates? bad driving record?

Oh I forgot to mention that, I got my DL just 2 years back.

tidester

I've never spent more than a couple of days in Jersey so I really have no idea what you can expect and what your options are. Generally, I don't think you bargain with a judge but if there is a prosecutor involved then he/she may be so burdened with work that he/she may be willing cut a deal with you.

Insurance companies don't like moving violations and often raise premiums for clients with many points and multiple violations. You may want to consider legal counsel.

Can anyone from NJ offer some guidance to pps1?

tidester, host

fezo

About the best you can do that I see is talk to the prosecutor in both cases. They will frequently, if they get an agreement with the police officer, plead the case down to a non-moving violation. This way the town gets their money and you don't get the points. I don't know how the second ticket will affect your ability to deal with this.

Basically you are taking a gamble - either the prosecutor will accept the deal, good for you, or he won't and you;ll get hit with court costs on top of the ticket.

Best of luck.

qbrozen

as others have said, talk to the prosecutor both times. If you can get the 4-pointer to 2 and the 2-pointer to zero, count your blessings and start obeying all traffic laws religiously! If you've only had your license for 2 years, every point is going to hurt your wallet big time when you go to pay your insurance.

akabanrosh

I took my 2001 Honda Odyssey for inspections and it failed due to a broken taillight lens. On my way home, I was stopped by a cop and was given a ticket for the same. When I tried to explain to him that I had not had an oppportunity to fix it, he said that DMV and township rules were different and that he could issue a ticket. Is there any point in fighting this?

qbrozen

probably not worth it.
There are no points involved (right?), so the only thing at stake is the fine. Unless you feel taking a day from work and sitting in the court room is worth it ...
But if you do go and still have to pay, it will be more expensive since they will add court fees to the cost. So keep that in mind when weighing the value of contesting.

fezo

I agree with qbrozen's advice. When talking to a prosecutor they will always make the cop sign off on a reduced ticket and this cop already sounds like he has an attitude.

I was VERY fortunate with a local cop when, due to my head not working right I forgot that my inspection month and registration month were not the same! Upshot is I was driving without registration! The cop didn't write me when he saw that it was mere forgetfulness but directed me to drive straight to motor vehicles and correct the situation which, of course, I did. He said technically he was supposed to call a tow truck right then and there!

bkirby

Hi - I got a speeding ticket today. I was apparently clocked at 42 in a 25 mph zone. I actually thought it was 35, but upon going back and looking, it is posted 25 (although I am not sure why - it's not particularly residential). Anyway, I checked and this will be a 4 point. I have never received a speeding ticket before. I am not sure if it is worth going to court and trying to get a lower fine.

To be honest, I don't really even know what I would say if I went to court. I can't lie and say that I wasn't speeding - if that's we he clocked me at, I guess that's it. I didn't think I was going that fast though.

Not sure if it is worth the trip to court and what I would plead not guilty to - I don't want to say I wasn't speeding at all. Any help?

alowe2

I got in an accident this past week and got a ticket for careless driving (which seems to be a 2-point offense). I've only gotten one ticket before (in PA for speeding). Is it worth it to go to court to plead down to unsafe driving? How do you even do that in court? :confuse:

qbrozen

do you live in pa or nj?

qbrozen

you don't really need to say anything. there is no argument involved. you are asking for a lower charge, that's all. I've never had the prosecutor say, "so what's your excuse?" they just say, "ok. let's see... 42 in a 25, huh? i'll offer you xxxxx instead. bye."

alowe2

nj

qbrozen

ok, well the ticket in PA didn't follow you here, right? (it has been over a decade since i got an out-of-state offense so maybe the rules changed, but it used to be those didn't affect your NJ license).

So I think it is a personal decision here. If you are clean otherwise, 2 pts really shouldn't make a difference. But if you are worried about it, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to pay some extra money at court and get a zero-point offense ... just in case you get a ticket in the next 3 years, you won't have to worry about a previous 2-pointer.

joecal02

I got pulled over and I was issued a careless driving ticket instead of a speeding ticket.

The officer was nice enough to tell me to go to court and talk to the prosectutor and plead Unsafe Driving and then the points will be removed but the fine will go up... And I'm good with that.

When I go to court, (I have to call later today to plead unsafe driving), what can I expect? What's going to happen? Like how is all this done? I've never had to go to court before.

Also, in court, will they know that I was actually speeding, because my ticket says careless driving not speeding, even though that is what I was doing...

Thanks

joecal02

Edit button disappeared?

Well I just also wanted to know if my calualations are correct.

According to alot of people on these forums, the whole thing did not cost more than $250, is it safe to assume that?

tidester

Edit button disappeared?

You have up to 30 minutes after posting a message to edit it.

tidester, host

tpe

If I went to court and the prosecutor offered me a reduced penalty I think that would be great. By reduced penalty I mean that say I was going 20 mph over the limit and this is typically a $200 fine. The prosecutor notes this is my first offense so reduces the penalty to $100. The 20 over the limit still goes on my record. However if he offered me a reduced offense for a fee then I'd consider that a form of extortion where he was using an unwitting and in all likelihood what would be an unwilling insurance company as his leverage. Imagine this scenario. I want to obtain health insurance and the insurance company requires that I first get a check-up and submit my health records. The doctor tells me that I have high blood pressure, my liver's shot, my heart's about to explode, etc.. Then he tells me that for a fee he will omit these findings. I think we can all agree that would be inappropriate, probably illegal and a violation of ethics. How is this fee for falsifying a driving record any different?

qbrozen

sounds like a fair comparison to me. The difference is, in one case, the government gets a piece of the action, so it is legal. In the other gase, they get bupkis, so it is illegal.

tpe

I think you've pretty well sized it up.

matthewsjl

OK - just got a 'Notice of Liability' from NYC for going through a red light in the Bronx. It's also got a couple of nice pictures of my car and a demand for $50.

The enclosed letter states that 'the registrant can be held liable even if he or she was not the driver'. There is no idication of who the driver was or attempt to identify on the notice of liability.

All the Notice of Liability contains is my name as the registrant, and the plate. There is no licence number recorded for the driver.

I have a NJ licence and am worried about points. I have read that out of state moving violations get 2 points in NJ. Will this violation get transferred without having any record of the driver licence number? Can NJ make any attempt to identify the driver?

Thanks - this is a really informative thread.

John.

tidester

That's an interesting question and I do not know the answer. However, it seems to me that the registrant either pays, in which case the driver is identified, or does not pay, in which case the registrant is in even more serious trouble.

tidester, host

matthewsjl

Well, the Notice of Liability doesn't make any attempt to identify the driver. By paying the fine, as far as I can see, all I doing is admitting that it's my car.

I've read elsewhere that NYC treats these violations in the same way as parking tickets so I don't think that it's going to get transferred back to NJ. I guess we'll see.

If anybody else has experience with this, please let me know.

Thanks,

John.

nj2pa2nc

they have red light cameras where we live in nc. a few days ago we received notice of our car going thru the red light. They had 3 very nice pictures that clearly showed our car. the fine is $50.00 and if not paid by the due date it will result in a late penalty of $50.00. It also states No points will be assessed. Maybe and hopefully the notice from NYC says that somewhere