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Comments
Small nuisance - we really like the van.
We love... the smell of the leather when we get in. One of the pleasures of owning a new car.
We love... the comfortable drive and solid handling of the Odyssey.
The NAV system is a blast and is a surprisingly nice feature to have. I knew the NAV would be great, but I was unaware of the other features. You can also view audio stations settings, have restaurants guides, a basic contact book, a conversion calculator, and other features. It really is impressive. You do have to clearly enunciate your vowels or when you say "XM radio station 1", it might say "rear defrost on".
I would have liked to have a power rear hatch, but the rear door on the Honda is REALLY easy to close. I don't have to exert much force to have it close, even when it barely clicks shut. No problems.
The lack of a telescoping steering wheel was somewhat of a concern for us. There are enough seat adjustments and the ability of the steering wheel to move up and down that I and my wife can be comfortable. However, a friend of ours had to buy the Sienna because this bothered her. After driving the van for more than a test drive, your body becomes accustomed to driving it and I haven't noticed any undue stresses on my arms or legs. Perhaps a 1000 mile road trip would be a better test.
The rear 3rd row seats are awesome and very easy to use. Nice to have them up and down for groceries or whatever.
The DVD system is nice to have. We let my 3 year old watch it on longer trips. We haven't figured out how to run it from the front control console (if possible) and have to arch back to look at the roof controls over the second seats. Not a huge deal. The wireless headphones work great and they turn off when you leave the van or enter into the front passenger area - all to avoid people from viewing of listening when they shouldn't be.
We have noticed no wind noise at high speeds like others. We have no apparent shifting problems. We have no apparent braking problems. Road noise may seem louder than I would have thought, but perhaps only because people made such a big deal about it. I think road noise is slightly above my volkswagen passat.
The VCM system seems flawless. The VCM light goes on and off when you are cruising at stable speeds and I have yet to perceive any noise or changes in engine vibration.
I don't know what else I can offer about this van other than our subjective joys of owning it. One thing is for sure, the Honda is one heck of a vehicle and we look forward to driving anywhere we go. My mother-in-law calls it a hotel on wheels.
My advise to people is to back off a little on the minutia of their vans and to enjoy all the great things about it.
Regarding the carrying of a spare, I don't see why the compact temp spare that comes with the non-Pax models won't fit in the stowage compartment. A full size tire and wheel is definitely not going to fit! In fact, the owner's manual shows you two different methods of temporarily storing your full-sized flat in the rear of the vehicle (3rd row seats up or down) in the event you have to install the spare.
Addressing the seating comfort, they seem OK to us, a side bolster adjustment would be nice, but as it appears so obvious to me, one seat is not going to fit every butt and back combination out there!
My only issue so far, in my limited amount of driving the Odyssey, is that the reach to the steering wheel is a bit much. Locating it further back or at least making it telescopic would solve this problem. Guess we are stuck adapting for now...
I prefer the appearance of the wheels of the Odyssey EX to the Touring. The Touring wheels look too much like the Chrysler Touring and Limited wheels. The 2002-2004 Odyssey EX wheels are the most attractive wheels of any recent vehicle.
I also prefer the Sienna XLE 16" wheels to either the standard LE wheel covers, LE AWD 17" wheels or XLE Limited wheels. (The XLE standard 16" wheels are the same as the optional 16" alloy wheels of the LE).
I noticed that you have bought a Toyota Sienna. You are right, we appear to be lucky that some discounting exists. However, the Toyota's are also seeing the same thing.
When I bought my Touring I directly priced it against an XLE AWD w/leather. The dealer was offering close to $4,000 off list.
Although I negotiated a great deal on my Sienna at the time, I'm sure I could get the same van now for $1-2K less. But I've enjoyed my van for nearly a year, and in the meantime, the van I traded might have dropped in value by more than I would have saved by waiting.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/030226.htm
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/tires21e_20041021.htm
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.03/start.html?pg=9
http://www.michelinman.com/assets/pdfs/doc_paxwarranty.pdf
http://www.compositesnews.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=6594
http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=23829
http://www.tennessean.com/business/archives/04/11/60811345.shtml
Good News! It appears Goodyear and Pirelli will also offer PAX tires.
I called the Honda service department of the dealer I am working with. I told him my concerns. He tols me that they are too new for him to know about. I told him he should have a Michelin "hatbox" handy to swap out my whole wheel if needed, he told me that he found it.
If I have a flat, I have to buy the whole kit. Wheel and all - at a cost of $517.00. He was clueless about a trade in program, clueless about how to service me. Nightmare. He said that Honda Service Departments had zero training on it yet.
I called the major tire sellers in my area (Cincinnati). Not a one carried the tire. And not one had the equipment to mount and balance one if I provided it.
Even www.Tirerack.com does not carry it.
I did find one tire retailer that would order me one. The cost you ask? $240.00 per tire.
I called Michgelin's 1-877-PAXTIRE number. I told them I was in Cinci and had a PAX tire issue and needed a replacement. It ended up being a general Michelin service number, and they were polite but nearly clueless about how to help me.
If you have an issue with a PAX tire, you are toast for at least awhile. If I buy the Touring Ody, I will replace those PAX tires and rims with standard ones from Tirerack, and put a donut spare/jack in the lazy susan storage area. Then I can also mount and use Blizzaks in the winter. Sure can't do it with the PAX wheels.
Damn Honda for this BS move of providing a tire for which there is absolututely zero support infrastructure. Most people buying these Touring Odys have no clue yet just how screwed they are if they have a tire issue. They will find out. I did my experiment and investigation, and it was bad.
At least with a conventional tire and a donut spare, you can buy time. And contrary to popular belief, the tread on a fully inflated donut spare is good for a few thousand miles, albeit it at reduced speeds and decreased handling. The PAX tire can go 150 miles while flat. That's it. Might as well have done what Porsche does in the boxter and provide a can of fix-a-flat. It works better than PAX, except in sidewall blowouts.
But PAX better catch on quickly industry-wide, and most tire pros believe it is too complicated and complex a syatem to become wide spread. PAX is a loser in my view. Strike one against the Honda.
Here is the PAX dealer in your home town:
Tire Discounters Inc
5362 Ridge Ave
Cincinnati, OH 45213-2544
Tel # (513)351-0300
However, most people in our region don't regularly switch over to snow tires. If this is a huge issue, I would probably buy something else.
I would also suspect that you could get away breaking the mileage rules on PAX, just like you could with a donut spare. Again, I am not sure there is a difference between these two experiences. Except that you physically need to change the spare and the PAX is relatively carefree.
Did you take the time to read the warranty link? It appears that my whole assembly would be switched at no charge. That seems OK to me.
Again, if you spent this much time worrying about the issue, and you think traction is that much of an issue, I would just get the Sienna AWD. Personally, I live in central PA and my other vehicle is AWD so I have no concerns whatsoever.
Actually, I take that back. I was somewhat concerned when this discussion first started, but doing my research reinforced my very wise decision.
Furthermore, these are premium Michelin tires. I just checked the sidewall of my Truck last night and those Michelins are only rated 420 and they have a 65K warranty (which they will easily reach). The PAX tires have a rating of 500 and I anticipate at least a similar lifespan.
The good thing with Toyota is that the tire pressure monitor is standard across the line. However, it appears to be very basic in it's capability.
The Touring model doesn't need to be reset, since it actually monitors the pressure live and reports the exact pressure of each tire on the driver information screen.
Thanks for the info. The company name you gave me was exactly who I had called in my area. They do not stock these tires. Of all their dozens of stores, only one is set up to handle PAX. They can special order me a tire at $240 each. They do not believe PAX will be a hit in the marketplace.
As far as getting the Toyota AWD, take a look at their board. As it turns out, they come equipped with "conventional" DSST run flat tires. No spare, and no place to carry one. Their tires are wearing out at 12,000 miles on many Siennas, and people are talking class action suit. It is really bad.
All I want is a conventional tire, with a donut spare. I carry fix-a-flat, which works great for minor nails and stuff like that. I have had one sidewall puncture in 10 years, and was glad to have the donut spare. I called tirerack and they had me a new tire in 2 days. With PAX, the dealers are NOT taking care of customers like Michelin promises, and are not even aware of the policies supposedly in effect.
How long has the PAX been out now, a few months? It may take awhile for everyone to get up to speed. Same goes with aftermarket accessories for the '05 Ody. Not too many available right now, but there will be in the future. Did you check and see if TireRack had any aftermarket wheel fitments for the '05 Ody? They don't, but give it time and they will.
By the way, did you bother to check the knowledge of personnel, availability and price regarding all the other numerous systems on the Odyssey (or any other vehicle for, that matter) that could break and possibly leave you stranded? More can fail than just the tire!
There have been numerous anti-PAX posts on this site. What can I say, if you don't want it, don't buy the Touring model or be prepared to lay out some bucks for new wheels and tires! I can take or leave the PAX or any other run-flat system. I'm not pro or ant-PAX. My wife wanted all the features of the Touring so that is what she got, PAX and all. But she does like the idea of not having to deal with a flat, just drive home and let me handle it!
If I change my wheels and tires out, it won't be for my lack of faith in PAX though, but because I want to customize ours to be different than the crowd. But there are considerations other than the proper wheel size , backspacing, etc. With the Touring, you have to deal with the TPMS so it would be nice if an aftermarket wheel will accomodate the sensors/transmitters, assuming you will want to maintain the fuction of this system, (I would).
True, a choice of tires for the PAX wheel would be nice. Hopefully these will be available in the future, but in the meantime, I for one, will not be sweating the PAX system. As far af failures go, in 30 years of driving, I have been fortunate never to have had a flat or other tire malfunction (yep, I'm knocking on wood) on any of my 4 wheel vehicles (bicycles and motorcycles are another story), and this has included lots of off-pavement ventures! Of course, I have also properly maintained my tires and used only quality brands.
Only time will prove the PAX system to be a success or failure. I don't think PAX should be a deal-breaker for the majority of drivers considering the Touring though. However, perhaps the price difference between it and the EX with leather will be!
Now I can focus on the features of my new Odyssey instead of the problem of back pain.
Here is a compromise that you may want to consider. I just purchased the Cargo Tray since it will protect the cargo area (allow me to carry gas cans, used oil, garden stuff, plus it doesn't interfere with seat operation).
I almost bought the mat, but it was fairly expensive and I don't believe it covers the entire area with the front seats removed. Instead I bought a high quality painters drop cloth (6 by 9)at Home Depot. It should be somewhat leak resistant and it folds small enough to store under either second row seat when not in use. My cost was $10.
I had a difficult time deciding whether to buy the all weather mats from Honda, but they are over $100 and you are not supposed to leave the original mats in place (I would need to store them every winter). My wife and I finally decided that we are going to just enjoy the look and feel of our new mats (since they cover almost every area you can walk) and then we will replace them with new ones when I have around 80,000 miles on the vehicle (they don't cost much more than the black all-weather versions). If I was in the construction business, I would probably just use the black rubber mats.
I hope this helps.
Got back in the car and called my local Honda dealer. Service was closing, but when they heard is was a Pax tire they broke into what seemed like a well rehearsed fire drill. They told me that they would keep the service area open for me until I could make it in. I was far away but it took me only about 30 min to get there courtesy of great "direct route" directions from the NAV. The ride was harsher than normal but even at freeway speeds I felt in complete control.
When I arrived, they had a giant black "hat box" waiting in the service bay. They opened it up to reveal a huge 70lb premounted and balanced new Pax tire. They put my car on a lift and swapped the entire mounted tire. They showed me a large nail in my tread. (BTW-always travel with the key for your optional 2005 touring wheel locks, since the dealer doesn't have any master keylocks that will fit those yet.)
After swapping the wheel/tire the tech said that he had to drive the car for a few min in order to reset the tire pressuring monitoring system. Which he did in about three min.
I braced for the cost and was shocked when I was told that it was completely covered under warranty.
They would place my original rim complete with flat tire in the giant "hat box" and mail it to tirerack(I think that is where they said). They would receive another premounted tire ready for installation on the next touring owner who has a flat. They indicated that it would take a few days for them to get the replacement. (Which means that I pity the fool who has a PAX flat before the dealer gets another tire. I suggested that they keep TWO premounted Pax tires in stock. But, they pointed out that since you can continue to drive on it for days, it probably doesn't really matter if someone has to wait a day or so or drive to another honda dealer.) As an aside, does PAX preclude the use of fix a flat?
Anyway, I was in and out in under half an hour. What is really impressive is that I was the first Pax flat that they ever had! They had apparently spent hours of training preparing for that moment. While driving off, the tire pressure monitoring system confirmed that the new tire was inflated to the correct pressure.
Overall a pleasant experience and much better than waiting for AAA on the side of a busy highway after dark.
Thanks for sharing your real world experience. I doubt every instance will go that smoothly, but it doesn't even sound like you got your hands dirty.
What do you mean by "a Touring with no options"? I thought there were no options available for the Touring, at least not on the Touring with NAV/RES.
My understanding is that the Touring with NAV/RES is in extremely short supply -- none have yet arrived at any of the dealers I know in San Diego -- and so it's hard to see how they could be discounted by thousands of dollars. Maybe the situation is different elsewhere in the country.
We lucked out with ours. It arrived at the dealer and was supposedly sold, but they couldn't swing a final deal, so I was first in line to speak up for it, at MSRP, and happy to get it. It's tough paying MSRP when I've typically paid only slightly above invoice for my last two loaded Suburbans, but if you want that Nav/Res Touring, that is what it will take in our area (for the time being)!
This van is SA-WEET! I never thought I would be so happy about driving a van.
We have 2 kids still in booster seats and 1 teen. We removed the "alien" seat and there is so much room. The Navigation is so great to have, the DVD is nice (headphones are great) and the XM is a plus.
I had posted earlier that the brakes weren't as good as my Pilots, but for some odd reason, they have improved and are working just fine now. Even the stereo sounds better to me.
We all love our new van and this vehicle is sure to end up with high miles!
Love it!!
Anybody else have this problem?
With that deal, I can buy new wheels when PAX is a bust. I plan to buty a donut spare ($50 for the wheel, $50 for the tire) and keep it in the lazy susan area. It will fit. I measured.
I am a big time PAX detractor. I think it is a big bust. But I can buy new OEM wheels for $177 each if I want, or get some nice aftermarket ones. With the price on the van, I have a good bit of flexibility.
Here's to hoping this van will be as good as my 1999 Ody has been.
Where did you go to have the seat upholstered? How much did this cost you? Please let me know soon- those who experience this problem understand its severity and would rather not have to sell an otherwise excellent product.
If you would please tell me a little more about how to do it? and whats the process? Thanks alot!!
Enjoy your new 2005 Honda Odyssey Touring!!
I kind of fingure out what is rattling. I believe it is the sun roof shade. When I use my right hand to push it against the ceiling when driving, it is obviously less rattling. I will report this to my dealer but don't have time until the week of 12/6. I will let you know what happens there. Could you also post what happens to yours too?
Another question/decision for you and all: Are wheel locks really needed? Are stolen stock Honda alloy wheels a big problem in your area?
I'm in central CT, with some travel to Boston and NYC and I'm on the fence about the wheel locks.
I'm glad you liked the suggestion on the cargo tray and mat substitution, hopefully it works out for you too. Anyway, I am not generally a paranoid person so I would generally skip the wheel locks. However, I think it depends on your circumstances:
*Do you work/play in the city often?
*Do you have the Touring wheels? (certainly would be tempting for a thief)
*Do you park on the street?
*Have you had any vehicle related theft in the past? Do you have a friend/relative that experienced an issue recently?
I hope you enjoy your new Odyssey as well as I am enjoying mine.
I actually used the opposite to my advantage. I cross shopped my Odyssey Touring against a Sienna XLE AWD w/leather.
I found the Toyota dealer to be very aggressive with their discounting. The sales rep was telling me November was slow for them.
Anyway, after negotiating a great price on the Sienna, I went in to my local Honda dealer armed with invoice pricing. I challenged them to show the same effort on their pricing (In relation to invoice). When they did, I decided to go with the Honda. Overall, the Honda dealer was more knowledgeable and offered a better sales experience.
Actually - you need to start with your Honda dealer. Take the Odyssey back to them and tell them you are in extreme pain from driving the van. Ask your dealer to remove the plastic lumbar piece. The odyssey is not equipped with a balloon like lumbar support device, but rather a piece of plastic that feels like a fist going thru your back. Try having this removed first before doing anything else.
If your pain is similar to mine, removing the lumbar doesn't help, but it get's the dealer's attention that something is wrong with the seat.
After you try the seat without the plastic lumbar piece, if you are still experiencing the discomfort, call your dealer's service manager and tell him/her you need the foam of the seat modified and don't take 'no' as an answer. Also let him know that the cervical, thoracic and lumbar areas of the seat are not designed for the average back.
The foam of the seat needs to be flattened out.
The upholsterer I went to was recommended by my Honda dealership. My dealer also gave me some assistance with the cost of modifying the foam so I'm not sure what the actual cost is.
The upholsterer flattened out the foam in the driver seat to match that of other driver seats in other cars. Now my back is against the seat where it should be, and my head is closer to the headrest.
thanks
The 120watt radio is poor. The window diversity antenna looses the signal too easily . The sound quality is very poor especially at low volume. The main speakers are too low in the foot well, so when volume is down all you hear is the buzzy dash mounted tweeters. I ordered a subwoofer (not yet installed) but that won't take care of the mid-range. Can't get an aftermarked unit because its unique to the dash.
The second row windows are no joy either. Can't drive with them open or the wind buffeting noise will break your eardrums. HOnda should have left the swing out tail windows to relieve the air pressure - which the Sienna still retained. This is going to be a battle in the summer!!
Last major dissapointment is in the trailering capacity. They claim 3500 lbs. but to get that you need to install $1300 worth of parts and coolers. Then the fine print tells you that any trailer over 1850 lbs. needs a weight distribution hitch - another $400. How do they get away with this. either it tows 3500 lbs. or it doesn't.
Thanks very much for confirming that. That sounds a bit inconvenient, but I looked at the manual for the cargo board, and it appears that it is pretty easy to take out and put back in.
I guess the only problem would be if you are away from home and need to fold the seat down. Then you'd have to figure out what to do with the cargo board.
Most people who are willing and able to spend the money for Touring wouldn't think twice about paying for the Nav/RES, and they likely wouldn't consider buying a top-of-the-line minivan without those two features. I know that's certainly true in my case. Heck, I wouldn't have considered buying my 2000 Odyssey without the Navigator, and I had the dealer install a RES before I even drove it off the lot. (Although it is only VHS, not DVD, it also receives broadcast TV, which I don't believe the 2005 Odyssey RES does.)
I think most of the people who end up buying the Touring without Nav/RES will get a significant discount, and I suspect they might have been looking at a lower-end Odyssey but decided to go with the Touring because they got it for a good price. I don't think the Touring with Nav/RES will be discounted as frequently, certainly not here in southern California.
As for the conventional wisdom that the EX-L with Nav/RES is a "better value" than the Touring with Nav/RES and that "the marketplace has spoken," all I can say is: to each his own. I like the extra features on the Touring, and they are definitely worth it to me. If I didn't want them I'd probably buy a Sienna instead rather than an EX-L.
I wash the top and the glass then dry (step ladder is a necessity). Then comes the front followed by the sides. I found this helps to minimize the water spotting, at least better than if you tried to complete the whole process all at once. Blasts of compressed air around the roof rails, mirrors, and other crevices will help to get some of that excess water out that seems to seep out forever otherwise(and if your water is hard like mine, leaves a trail down your paint).
Use good automotive soap and paint care products. I personally prefer, and use, Zaino but there are many good products out there.
Since the Ody is my wife's vehicle, I've told her that it is her responsibility to keep it washed. Yeah, right! She is already asking about the Mr. Clean system. I'm a little hesitant, but may give it a try. The Ody is ocean mist in color so at least it won't show the dirt and spots as much as a darker color.
This NYC raised, paranoid, former car break-in victim, whose wife parks it on the street at work guy WILL buy the wheel locks.
And yes, we are enjoying the Odyssey--a pleasure to drive and plenty of space for the kids and dog.
The idea of better value, I think, was an EX-L nav/res for the same +/- price as a base touring.
You can probably remove the armrests, but taking out the center ones won't do anything, since the seat will be in the same place (fixed by the attachment points on the floor). You might be able to remove the outer one to make the passage to the back seat easier, but it probably won't be worth the effort.
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