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Comments
2. A spare in the FWD location is not possible on an AWD because the driveshaft is in the way. There is a spare kit available, but it takes up the well on the "wide" side of the third seat well, so only the "narrow" side of the third row will fold up and disappear if you use it.
4. You have to buy a microphone, which is plug and play as I understand it. I don't have one.
5. I've only had hesitation issues on my 04 that are so minor I wouldn't have even noticed them if people had not complained about it. Everybody isn't having transmission issues with them. It seems to be a vocal minority.
6. I drive ours 95% of the time so that could have something to do with the lack of hesitation, but others who have two or more drivers don't have problems either.
7. The bulbs used in HID headlights last much longer than a filament (i.e. halogen) bulb. I forget the mean life, but it is something like 5,000 hours of use, which is a long time. Also, D2R bulbs (the bulb used in the Sienna HIDs) can be had for $100-150. I doubt they are $1000 even at a Toyota dealer. That is probably the cost of the entire headlight assembly.
Good luck with your decision. Both are good choices, although like you, I'm even less impressed with the PAX tire system than the run flats used on AWD Siennas.
I believe a donut would easily fit in place of the lazy susan, although it won't last as long as a flat PAX tire so it's almost irrelevant.
If you're really that concerned about the PAX, I would probably just avoid the Touring.
However, I did provide some additional info in the 2005 Odyssey forum and these really are some nice Michelin tires. As mentioned earlier, they can be repaired, they do have a high 500 rating, and are rated A for traction.
Honda really takes care of you for the first two years, and it appears there is already a decent amount of Michelin dealers supporting this product. I just checked last night and I think I already have about 3 dealers within 50 miles (semi-populated area).
One other thing, if these tires last as long as my factory installed Michelins on my Oldsmobile Bravada I'll will be real happy. Under hard use, I will easily get 65K on them (49K now).
Michelin tires are known for being fairly expensive, but they are also known for making good tires. I doubt Michelin or Honda would intentionally create a bad experience.
For me, I get an upgraded tire, good ride and handling, better warranty and support, and my wife will never be stuck along the highway. Furthermore, Michelin claims these tires will only run about 10% more than non-run flats. Plus they are the coolest looking factory installed wheels on any minivan!
have test driven them BOTH 4 times. I have read the sales brochure for BOTH vans. I have asked these questions of BOTH dealerships, and I have read this forum extensively. If you7 read my questions closely, you will find that they cannot be answered by a test drive. Being an engineer is extremely relevant. It means I am a detailed individual who would not ask these questions without looking diligently first.
I called the Honda service department of the dealer I am working with. I told him my concerns. He tols me that they are too new for him to know about. I told him he should have a Michelin "hatbox" handy to swap out my whole wheel if needed, he told me that he found it.
If I have a flat, I have to buy the whole kit. Wheel and all - at a cost of $517.00. He was clueless about a trade in program, clueless about how to service me. Nightmare. He said that Honda Service Departments had zero training on it yet.
I called the major tire sellers in my area (Cincinnati). Not a one carried the tire. And not one had the equipment to mount and balance one if I provided it.
Even www.Tirerack.com does not carry it.
I did find one tire retailer that would order me one. The cost you ask? $240.00 per tire.
I called Michgelin's 1-877-PAXTIRE number. I told them I was in Cinci and had a PAX tire issue and needed a replacement. It ended up being a general Michelin service number, and they were polite but nearly clueless about how to help me.
If you have an issue with a PAX tire, you are toast for at least awhile. If I buy the Touring Ody, I will replace those PAX tires and rims with standard ones from Tirerack, and put a donut spare/jack in the lazy susan storage area. Then I can also mount and use Blizzaks in the winter. Sure can't do it with the PAX wheels.
Damn Honda for this BS move of providing a tire for which there is absolututely zero support infrastructure. Most people buying these Touring Odys have no clue yet just how screwed they are if they have a tire issue. They will find out. I did my experiment and investigation, and it was bad.
At least with a conventional tire and a donut spare, you can buy time. And contrary to popular belief, the tread on a fully inflated donut spare is good for a few thousand miles, albeit it at reduced speeds and decreased handling. The PAX tire can go 150 miles while flat. That's it. Might as well have done what Porsche does in the boxter and provide a can of fix-a-flat. It works better than PAX, except in sidewall blowouts.
But PAX better catch on quickly industry-wide, and most tire pros believe it is too complicated and complex a system to become wide spread. PAX is a loser in my view. Strike one against the Honda.
There's some tread threads over in the Tires, Tires, Tires discussion.
Steve, Host
2) Also answered. The location for the spare in the AWD after the kit is in the seat well.
3) It's not necessary to put the spare in the lazy susan area. The Touring has the same spare tire location as the other models, which is against the side wall in the rear cargo area. I would imagine in the Touring this location is merely empty.
4) Getting voice activation on the Sienna NAV requires purchasing a microphone kit off a Lexus I think. There has been mixed results in modding a 2004 in this manner. I don't know how it's been going with the 2005's, whether or not this has netted better results.
5) I don't know. It's possible.
6) If anything it seems like the hesitation was the *result* of some glitch in the learning algorithm, as it seems to go away if the cpu is reset.
7) HIDs are reliable, generally with a long lifespan compared to Halogens. However, given that my '93 Pontiac was driven regularly at night and still had the factory bulbs 8 years later, I think it's more a problem with defective parts/connections if you have bulbs blowing out prematurely. If you're that concerned about driving down dark roads, you could get yourself a nice set of auxiliary lamps to augment your light pattern and provide a redundancy in case you blow a headlight. Factory fogs will do in a pinch, although you won't be able to see as far.
Then again, if you're blowing a bulb on a dark lonely road, you should be able to switch to high/low beams (depending on which blew out). Both vans use a 4-lamp system, so even if you lost the entire bulb you would still have the other set to fall back on. Even 2-lamp systems will often just blow out one filament, allowing function of the other.
Good luck!
--> Andy (also an engineer
Thanks for the reply. One correction on your info - on the touring model you would have to place a spare in the lazy susan area because the normal place was used for a Subwoofer.
As far as Sirius, my dealer tells me that the plug is exactly the same and that Sirius will plug right in. I want it integral with the factory radio, with no separate tuner.
One question: If you give up the lazy susan for a donut tire don't you also lose the ability to utilize the lazy Susan compartment for storing the eigth seat attachment? To me the lazy Susan is trivial but losing the convenience of storing the eigth seat seems serious.
The other joke is that Honda "takes care of you the first two years". I typically put 10,000 or fewer miles per year on my vehicles so I don't expect to have problems in that window. I'm worried about year 4 or 5 when I have to spend $800-$1200 to replace the tires, assuming the PAX still exists at that time! What was Honda thinking on this one?!?
If you bothered to read the warranty link I provided, you would find that PAX owners are actually taken care of for 6 years. It is simply pro-rated and handled more like a traditional replacement.
I personally come to this forum to find out some new information that I may not have already discovered about my Odyssey. Lately, it has been primarily rumors and "what if" scenarios on PAX tires. Many of whom, actually own Toyota's! (Wooden wheels allow for easy field replacement using locally available vegetation and simple tools).
I would encourage anyone that had some real life hassles with PAX tires to post, just like I am interested in real life experiences with VCM, VSA, oil life monitor, service minder, and gas mileage (how it improves with mileage).
Here is something I just did this week, I outfitted one section of my lazy susan with safety gear (first aid kit, rags, duct tape, flashlight, flares, jumper cables, etc.). Although, I suspect that there will be a better chance of using these to help someone else than to help me (since I have these awesome PAX tires).
Using proprietary technology that utilizes oddball wheel sizes and prevents "regular" tire machines from mounting/dismounting tires is just plain stupid. Everybody else uses standardized sizes and technology that allows you to go into any tire retailer and get tires repaired/replaced. Michelin tried something somewhat similar long ago with their TRX wheels/tires that used an oddball size wheel diameter. See how many TRX tires you can find these days.
I'm amazed Honda jumped on board with such a poor system. Michelin must have given them a very attractive price on the wheels/tires to get them on board.
My experience, however, is contrary to the notion that treadwear ratings are "useless" when comparing different brands.
I've never seen a set with a 500 or higher rating last less than 50,000 miles. Nor have I seen a set with a rating in the mid-200s go much beyond 30,000, regardless of the manufacturer.
Too bad you didn't read the real world experience that was just posted in the Odyssey 2005+ forum. Somebody got a flat tire with PAX and everything was handled with no charge.
Somebody in a Toyota Sienna with run flats would not only need to replace the tire, but would do so at their expense.
I believe my subwoofer is actually under the front passenger seat. If I understand my manual correctly that vent that looks like a speaker on the left rear side is used for the exhaust of old air (climate control).
It actually took me a few days to find the subwoofer. The manual does not review speaker placement. But when I researched accessories online I found that a subwoofer option was available for non-touring models. The instructions for the subwoofer installation said to install under the front seat. Sure enough, I found a black box under the front passenger seat.
However, I did try to remove the cover that would normally hold a spare and couldn't figure it out. Of course, my Touring manual does not provide directions on how to remove the spare tire cover (the jack is still in the compartment).
--> Andy
I didn't check the links to see if they still work, but this post may be of interest:
steve_ "Tires, tires, tires" Oct 21, 2004 10:38pm
Steve, Host
I'm glad things worked out. Had there not been a Honda dealer nearby, they would have been waiting awhile.
"Somebody in a Toyota Sienna with run flats would not only need to replace the tire, but would do so at their expense."
Not true. I had a screw in one of my run-flats, took it to the the nearest tire shop, had it dismounted and repaired at a cost of $15. That would not have been possible with a PAX wheel/tire.
It seems to me the fairest statement that can be made is that treadwear ratings are the most accurate when compared with other tires from the same manufacturer.
I don't see that as conflicting with my previous posts on the topic, the most recent of which I clearly limited to my own observations.
I assume you own a Touring since you're so defensive and working so hard to convince yourself that these tires are so great. And maybe they will work out. I just find it hard to believe that I have hundreds of tire dealers within 20 miles of my home and only one is currently an authorized PAX dealer. And this one dealer can't do them yet. If you know anything about supply and demand you know that if there's only one guy in the area who can do them he's going to fleece you. And why would more dealers go to the expense of supporting PAX when only once vehicle uses them?
As for the warm and fuzzy "real life story" about the guy who got his PAX replaced I would sure hope that's what happened since he's only had the van a short time and that's how the warranty works.
Please come back in 5 years and tell us how things went when you went to replace those tires that aren't on the market any more!!!
I did a google search and found a few people that claimed that Toyota dealers were advised to not fix these tires. Was this repair recommended? Does your manual say anything? I also found a good article that appears to articulate the same ideas.
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/editorial/features/index.cfm/a- ct/feature36
FYI- A PAX tire is officially repairable
It sounds like your just a little upset that you bought the Sienna which uses the outdated run flat technology. I hope you don't find that tire pressure reset button useless in a few years.
In all fairness, the Sienna does have some nice features. I personally liked the higher ground clearance and the option of AWD. I found that I liked the interior of the XLE and above, but the lower trim levels were not as nice as the Odyssey (obviously this is opinion).
The day I bought my Odyssey Touring, I also cross shopped the Sienna XLE AWD w/leather. Both dealers were willing to discount and we bought the Odyssey for the interior, handling, sales experience, and the VCM technology. However, and this may surprise some of you, I was willing to walk out with either van that day. I did a lot of research and they are both great vans and each one had some advantages over the other.
I just didn't like the idea of not getting the same MPG and the recommendation of premium fuel. Has Toyota ever posted rated horsepower and gas mileage using just 87 octane? The Odyssey Touring and EX/L have gas mileage ratings similar to many V6 sedans.
Since you brought it up, let's talk about the 'outdated' run-flat technology on my Sienna. Let's assume for a moment that conventional run-flats--for whatever reason--become extinct. I can always install conventional tires at any time, and have my choice of brand, performance, and even the option of snow tires.
Let's assume PAX becomes extinct. There will be no support system for this technology. Touring owners will be forced to buy conventional wheels, just as owners of Michelin's ill-fated TRX tires had to do. Since standard 18" wheels would be slightly smaller than the PAX measurement of (I believe) 18.1", the odometer and speedometer readings will never be accurate.
But it's true. Michelin already has one failed attempt at marketing a boutique tire to the public. They have to work very hard to re-earn our trust. Maybe if Honda started slapping them onto the zillions of Accords and Civics next year, Michelin will be more skittish about pissing people off by dumping it so fast.
--> Andy
As for "outdated" run-flats on the Sienna, I'm not a big fan of them either, but they are a better solution than the PAX wheels/tires. They function just like a PAX tire if they are flat, they can be repaired/replaced using normal tire changing equipment, and you can use a "regular" tire as a replacement if run-flats aren't available. If you have a PAX flat more than 150 miles away from the nearest Honda dealer/Michelin dealer with the proper equipment, you're going to be waiting for UPS for awhile. There aren't any advantages to them (other than increased profit for michelin), and you lock yourself up to being dependent on them catching on and special machinery/wheels/tires being widely avaiable. Not a bet I'd care to make with my $40K minivan.
My big question is this: I have read in here that Honda says that you cannot and must not replace the PAX wheels with standard wheels on the Touring Model. Something about the suspension. Is this true? If so, there is NO WAY I will buy the Honda Touring. Anyone know?
If you don't want the run-flats than the Sienna XLE is the better deal. I can't imagine going through the expense or the hassle of switching out wheels on a new vehicle.
Plus from your posts it appears these PAX tires would just give you an ulcer. There is no way I would spend this much money on a vehicle and then worry about every thing that "might" happen.
Hopefully, you already plan on keeping non-VCM heads in the lazy susan too. Just in case Honda gives up on this experimental technology. Right now, I believe Honda is the only one that stocks these parts. I checked all the local auto parts stores and nobody else seems to carry them.
Next year its likely that PAX will be optional instead of standard, due to the fact that Canadian Tourings have an alternative wheel and tire system.
Stats: Reported on the net
Touring MPG City 14-17 Highway 17-24
Touring owners patiently waiting for MPG to improve - no report of 28 MPG calculated
Sienna MPG City 17-20 Highway 21-27
Sienna owners report MPG closer to EPA earlier.
http://www.tirerack.com/survey/SurveyComments.jsp?additionalComme- nts=y&tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Energy+LX4&commentS- tatus=P
We are locked into garbage.
With that deal, I can buy new wheels when PAX is a bust. I plan to buty a donut spare ($50 for the wheel, $50 for the tire) and keep it in the lazy susan area. It will fit. I measured.
I am a big time PAX detractor. I think it is a big bust. But I can buy new OEM wheels for $177 each if I want, or get some nice aftermarket ones. With the price on the van, I have a good bit of flexibility.
Here's to hoping this van will be as good as my 1999 Ody has been.
Rich
Those are probably the same people who think having 4WD makes them invincible. I'm one of those who thinks driving ability is much more important. Having 4WD does not mean you won't get stuck!
If I lived in Maine I would lean towards the AWD Sienna. Otherwise, I don't think it makes much of a difference. Depends on your needs.
The AWD will definitely help you not get stuck as easily. But you will pay a premium in price and fuel mileage (especially since Sienna recommends premium).
However, the AWD will not help you avoid an accident or stop faster. In fact, the Honda has all of their safety features standard (including Vehicle Stability Control). In addition, minivans are heavy and should generally perform better in the snow than a small car.
Oh, really? Only if maintaining vehicle control is always unrelated to crashes.
And 'driving ability' won't get a front-heavy FWD minivan up an icy or snow-covered hill.
Recently we decided to go with the touring. We have not had it long and last week I got flat while driving home after dark. The first thing that I noticed was the display gave me a visual and wheel specific warning of low tire pressure. There was also an audible alert. I pulled over and sure enough a tire was "flat". Not really flat more like semi-flaccid, because it appeared about half full since the rim was still far from touching the ground. I guess a Pax tire may never really look completely flat.
Got back in the car and called my local Honda dealer. Service was closing, but when they heard is was a Pax tire they broke into what seemed like a well rehearsed fire drill. They told me that they would keep the service area open for me until I could make it in. I was far away but it took me only about 30 min to get there courtesy of great "direct route" directions from the NAV. The ride was harsher than normal but even at freeway speeds I felt in complete control.
When I arrived, they had a giant black "hat box" waiting in the service bay. They opened it up to reveal a huge 70lb premounted and balanced new Pax tire. They put my car on a lift and swapped the entire mounted tire. They showed me a large nail in my tread. (BTW-always travel with the key for your optional 2005 touring wheel locks, since the dealer doesn't have any master keylocks that will fit those yet.)
After swapping the wheel/tire the tech said that he had to drive the car for a few min in order to reset the tire pressuring monitoring system. Which he did in about three min.
I braced for the cost and was shocked when I was told that it was completely covered under warranty.
They would place my original rim complete with flat tire in the giant "hat box" and mail it to tirerack(I think that is where they said). They would receive another premounted tire ready for installation on the next touring owner who has a flat. They indicated that it would take a few days for them to get the replacement. (Which means that I pity the fool who has a PAX flat before the dealer gets another tire. I suggested that they keep TWO premounted Pax tires in stock. But, they pointed out that since you can continue to drive on it for days, it probably doesn't really matter if someone has to wait a day or so or drive to another honda dealer.) As an aside, does PAX preclude the use of fix a flat?
Anyway, I was in and out in under half an hour. What is really impressive is that I was the first Pax flat that they ever had! They had apparently spent hours of training preparing for that moment. While driving off, the tire pressure monitoring system confirmed that the new tire was inflated to the correct pressure.
Overall a pleasant experience and much better than waiting for AAA on the side of a busy highway after dark.
Vehicle stability control and ABS will help you avoid an accident much better than AWD. Most accidents are avoided by braking and steering, not accelerating.
I have personally owned a few AWD/4WD vehicles and they do have their advantages. I personally like having one in the family fleet. Accident avoidance and braking is not the main advantage.
I remember following a Subaru about two years ago (from the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip). I think he did a 360 degree circle right in front of me and hit a guard rail. At the time, I was following him in a FWD vehicle.
I just thought your prior statment about AWD was off-base.
And I agree - far too many folks seem to think that AWD somehow makes them invincible. I have a Z71 Avalanche (a heavy truck with 4WD) and it is simply amazing how many people go flying by me in horrid weather.
But regarding this 'Hat Box' concept: If you already had, say, 20,000 on your PAX tires at the time of the flat, you would now have one brand new tire and three well-worn ones. I'm sure there would be some noticeable alignment and handling compromises that could only be be remedied by buying at least one additional new PAX tire.
The 'Hat Box' is nothing more than Honda's stop-gap measure to mask the fact that support and availablily of these tires from Michelin dealers is spotty at best.
Earlier you noted that you purchased a set of snow tires for your Sienna AWD (I believe I have this right). Could you let us know what tire you chose, and what your initial impressions are thus far?
I live on the west coast, but spend anywhere from 1 to 1 1/2 months a year in areas with significant snowfall, and am considering the Sienna as well.
Thanks in advance, LH
Too far to go home, too far to get to our free lodging in Seattle, and no dealer or tire shop is open. I'm thinking motel and a Friday morning search would be my best option in that scenario. I'm thinking I'd be pretty grumpy about the whole thing too :-)
Right now if I have a flat on my van, I can crank the spare down and get back on my way (and I wouldn't have to unload of all the junk we got from IKEA, Frys, and Trader Joes to get to the spare).
Steve, Host
I've had them mounted on the rims, but haven't had time to put them on the vehicle yet. However, I've had several sets of Blizzaks for various other vehicles I've owned (V6 Camry, Volvo, and an old-style FWD Sienna), and they're wonderful--especially on ice.
Of course, these are the first run-flat Blizzaks I've owned. The tread pattern is exactly the same, though, and I'm assuming handling and ride quality will also be similar. I've also owned Dunlop WinterSports, and I've found those to be a more performance-oriented and better-handling snow tire on dry pavement. But I don't think they're available in the Sienna's size.
What do I know? I spent most of my life in So.Calif!