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Comments
If you had a full size spare and didn't get hit along the highway changing it, you would be all set.
However, if you are like 75%(estimate) of the vehicles on the road today with a mini-spare you would be in worse shape. I believe most mini-spares are only rated for 50 miles, my PAX tires are rated for 125. Obviously, you could always drive further than recommended and risk a failure.
I think I mentioned that I replaced my spacesaver with a full size spare.
Steve, Host
I really like the touring model, but this whole PAX thing may be a deal breaker for me.
Thanks!
However, since the Canadian-sold Tourings do not have PAX, there probably is at least a supply of (EX-style?) OEM wheels that have the sensors installed.
--> Andy
I love it when the ECO light comes on and the 3 cylinders drop out... I see $$$ in my head. I'll report back in month or so on the mileage.
Again, things that made the difference to her were the responsive drive feel, the interior design, and the numerous standard features that could only be added to the Sienna as part of expensive add on packages.
Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans
Steve, Host
-murray
I've emailed around Northern and Southern California dealerships for quotes on an '05 EXL, and can't seem to do better that $29,810. Even at this price the Odyssey seems to be a better value than an '05 Sienna XLE package #6 (i.e., what seems to be the comperable trim). It seems like the XLE #6 would go for around $31,000-32,000.
Any thoughts?
1. What does everyone think of the long term reliability of the i-VTEC engine with the "Variable Cylinder Management". The design of shutting down 3 cylinders seem exotic and other makes had very poor results with this. I'm concerned with repair costs once the warranty is over.
2. What would be the towing capacity of the Odyssey without the towing package? The brochure states 3500# with "Accessory Towing Package". I plan to tow a small pop-up camper and I'm worried that if there is a problem with the transmission the dealer may bulk at warranty if he sees the tow bar.
If you have tested the Ody on the highway, you will notice road noise. The Sienna is much more quiet. Both vehicles have pros and cons. The Ody handles better and has a more powerful engine, but I'm concerned with the first year VCM. I like how the front seat beverage tray folds down so you can have access to the 2nd row seats. On the Sienna, it is much more cumbersome to remove the whole tray. In my opinion, the visibility is better in the Ody. The interior on the Sienna is much nicer and the controls are better laid out. I was not too crazy about the cheap plastic trim on the doors of the Ody.
I've read the prior posts about Toyota recommending premium fuel (but not required). The Sienna has a power lift gate for the rear and a computer that tracks the mileage, miles per gallon, etc. You would think that Honda would also include this on its EXL model. The Sienna comes with Fog lights and they are an option on the Ody.
You may want to refer to a recent posting in the 2005 Odyssey message board regarding road noise. This is the one thing that bothers me the most about the Ody.
I've still not made a decision yet and will probably test drive both vehicles again.
Are you leaning towards the Ody? Did you notice any other differences between the two?
At least on sienna' you can get away with using a normal tire with the run flats.
If she is the primary driver, than fulfill her desire. Don't force her into something she does not feel comfortable with.
What happen to next driver that comes in with a damaged tire?
I had on numerous occasion had both my front tire/wheels got damaged by potholes in northeast (used to live in DC area). things happens. I don't want to be stuck without a car for several days just waiting for honda dealer to turn around the tires.
On highway/long trip, is abut 27 to 28.
Since we don't get snow here in CA, I can't comment on it.
I'll have to check out the road noise, but some people seem to have resolved the issue after visiting their dealers.
Basically, I am annoyed at Toyota's strategy of making safety features optional, offering so many trims, and making them so expensive. But I still may buy a Sienna...
R1) Roads clear.
R2) Chains required to be installed on non-AWD/4WD vehicles. AWD/4WD required to carry, but not install chains if they have "snow traction tires". This includes all-seasons if they are M&S rated. I don't know if the Sienna's OEM tires are M&S. A lot of them are, but I don't know about the RFT's specifically.
R3) Chains required on all vehicles. Although in most cases, CHP will actually shut down the road before reaching R3.
You could occasionally get some guff from the random CHP trooper who's not aware of Siennas being available in AWD. But if you show the badge on the back of the van, and ask how else you can explain a 2-ton behemoth not sliding backwards down the hill, he'll usually let you go.
--> Andy
If you don't need JBL and 17" wheels. This is a better buy for you.
As far as pkg 6 goes, you do get more items, such as JBL upgrade (although it's not that great), 17" wheels, power lift gate, 2 115V outlet, 3 rows of sunshade, and true automatic climate control on all three zone (the EX-L does not have ability to change the rear temperature from front). For $1,000 this is a bargain.
If you want to save the $1,000 and go with XLE#14, you lose the CD changer and JBL AMP. But you still have everything else.
The problem would be locating a XLE #14.
The way i see is that going with XLE#6 $31,000 to get bigger wheels/tires, JBL AMP+CD changer for $1,000 more over XLE# 14 (which has only leather, alloy, all safety feature include VSC), it actually a steal.
I should preface to say my hubby is an auto mechanic & we were pretty set on the Odyssey. His feeling is Honda is better mechanically & for safety.
We pretty much went to the Toyota dealer just to rule it out.
PROBLEM - I liked the Sienna so much more. 1.Biggest was comfort. I need lumbar support for my low back. The seats in the Sienna were really comfy, driver & pass. This will be my car, but when we drive as a family I will be the passenger. The odyssey lumbar is not an avail for the passenger. Plus the seats in the Honda were just not comfy for me at all...even w/ the lumbar in the drivers seat.
2.Also - the Odyssey had barely a center console to store all my stuff like coupons, directions, maps, snacks, etc. Yes it has the glove compartments but those are not easy to reach. Sienna does
3. There is a button on the door jamb of the Sienna to press to close the door. SO much easier than pulling on the handle of the odyssey.
4. It just felt like a better drive to me, powerwise, smoothness & braking. I felt perfectly comfortable driving the Sienna whereas the Honda less so.
Ok - negatives :
My hubby says Toyotas have oil leaks & batteries leak acid & cause corrosion. Plus he feels Hondas have a better safety rating??? Does the Sienna have the same side airbag curtains that the Odyssey has? Plus the new Honda has some sort of new cage in the front that helps protect the drivers legs in a front end accident.
Another biggie is price - not sure how but the Toyota how we want it (leather, DVD, rims, power doors, pretty much decked out except for the navigation system) is about $6,000 more. That is ALOT more. But I thought the prices were supposed to be comparable?? We are getting a price of approx $31K for a Honda & $37K for the Sienna...both comparably decked out from what i can see.
Things I liked about the Honda better - which are minor to me...DVD screen is bigger & placed further forward so easier to view IMHO. 6 disc CD changer where Sienna just has 1.
Oh & the Honda gets a little better mileage.
And of course the price - SO much cheaper!
So adding all this up - we can't decide!!
My biggest priorities are in this order :
1 safety
2 comfort
3 price
Please help!! Thank you!
Erika
We are in the same boat trying to decide between the Odyssey and Sienna. Your price comparison does not seem right. Here is what I have for the top of the Line Sienna (XLE Limted AWD) versus the top of the line Odyssey (Touring with Navi and DVD) (This is invoice price not MSRP or what the dealers are seeling them for):
Sienna XLE Limited All Wheel Drive:
Wholesale Price $33,193
Dealer Incentive $750
Option HO LP#2 $2,978
Total (exl TT&L) $36,921
The Limited Package #2 includes rear view back-up camera, single-disc CD player, DVD navigation system, 2 wireless headphones and DVD rear entertainment system.
Honda Touring with DVD and Navigation:
Wholesale Price $33,409
Dealer Incentive $1,149
Total (exl TT&L) $34,558
So the difference is Sienna $36,921 versus Odyssey $34,558. The big difference of course is that the Sienna has the 4 wheel drive versus the Odyssey has the 2 wheel drive. If you get the Sienna XLE Limited 2 wheel drive then the invoice price drops to $34,950 which is almost identical to the Odyssey.
As for safety they are both comparable. I have not seen any testing done on the 2005 Odyssey but I am assuming it will get the same ratings as the 2004. I have be doing extensive research, even bought consumer reports new car buying kit for $39 (not sure if is worth it) and it's a toss up. Consumer reports rated the Sienna higher than the Odyssey. Some complains I have seen for Odyssey drivers are wind noise and some tranmission problems. Also the run flat tires on the touring version has some issues but nothing major. I have not really seen any complains on the Sienna.
So I believe either one will be a great minivan. As for my case since safety is about the same, comfort I rated the Sienna better and buying price it appears that the Toyota dealers are more willing to negotiate. One of the Honda dealers I have been talking to stated that they are selling the Odysseys at MSRP which I will never pay MSRP for a car or anything for that matter.
Hope this helps. If you buy please let us know the experience.
Thanks
Dinos
Safety wise, the Toyota is perfect. It's a best pick by the Institute for Highway Safety, and a 5 star winner for front and side impacts by NHTSA.
The Honda does have a new ACE body structure, but it has not been crash tested as of yet.
Good luck on your choice. I'm still torn between the two vans!
Mark
1. Mechanical quality of Sienna in my opinion is better than the Ody (3.3L engine is shared between Lexus Toyota and auto transmissions are more reliable). Also, take into consideration the reliability of new VCM etc (unknown).
2. If one wants driver feel, the Ody is the van of choice, but comfortwise Sienna is much better because it is better isolated.
3. Noone knows how safe the 05 Ody is because as far as I know, no tests have been done either by IIHS or NHTSA. Sienna is IIHS's best pick.
3. As pointed out by many, Sienna has many thoughtful interior touches. Also, IMO, the Sienna interior is much more refined.
4. Your $6000 figure may be due to comparing trims that are far apart. Generally, toyotas are slightly more expensive say by about a $1000, but you also get a few more features. For example, Ody EX-L doesn't give you power lift gate or fog lights that are standard on the Sienna XLE.
I find the best website to compare MSRP/Invoice with all the optional packages is www.carsdirect.com.
Both vans are likely to be similar in terms of mechanical reliability. Both have had their 1st year bugs, although Toyota should have had a year to work some of them out. Neither are perfect, but likely to be better than other competitors.
The oil issues in the Toyota motors (sludge?) that your hub may be talking about does not appear to be affecting the newer Siennas. At least, there haven't been any loud complaints like with the previous generation. Then again, the new Sienna's just a year old.
Safetywise, at the highest trim level both vans will have the same airbag setup. At lower levels the Honda's curtain bags are standard, while the Toyota's are optional. But with your interest in a DVD system, you're probably getting the airbags as part of the package.
Based on pricing, it sounds like you're comparing an EX-L with a Limited. There are a lot of things the Limited will have that the EX-L won't. Most notably will be a power rear hatch. There's also a lot of little features like the xenon headlamps, the 110v power outlet, laser cruise control, and parking sensors. But again, that's why there's a big price difference. It's a question of whether or not you need those extra features, or would rather save the $6k.
The DVD player in front you might find more convenient than having to reach back to put a disc into the Toyota's player for your twins.
Pricing varies by region. While sticker and/or invoice between models might be comparable, it all comes down to which dealers are willing to negotiate. Where I live, I was being upsold by the Toyota (i.e. told that I can't get my options package on an XLE so insisted I shop on a Limited) plus they still held onto their high markups, which just aggravated the price difference. On paper I was cross-shopping models that should only have been about $2k apart. But very quickly that difference became $7k!
As for the power sliding doors, if you flip the inside handle rather than the outside handle, it's a lot easier to close the doors that way.
Either way you should be happy. It comes down to personal choice.
Good luck!
--> Andy
1. There is no oil leak nor battery acid leak in Sienna. Where did he get that information? The 04 sienna had 2 recalls on premature wear on radiator and power steering hose. There was one additional recall on the fuel tank. All three were limited to 04 model and has been fixed on 05 models.
The 2005 Odyssey has a recall on misplaced ABS sensor. In addition, no one knows how durable the 5 speed automatic transmission is. The transmission is shared with 04 TL, and there has been cases of transmission failure on the TL already. Although not as bad as 00-03 TL/CL that resulted in a recall. There is no way to say for sure that Honda transmission is sound.
2. Both Sienna and Odyssey were rated excellent by IIHS (www.hwysafety.org). Both offer same amount of protection. Curtain airbag are optional on Sienna LE/XLE and std. on XLE limited. While Odyssey has these standard across the range.
3. The pricing is incorrect as well. Based on what your want, you are probably looking at XLE#7 which lists for $36.5k invoice is $31774, which you can buy for around $500 above invoice. Sienna has a lot of room to negotiate. Or you can got with sienna XLE limited for $37.5k with invoice at $33,332 (which you probably can get one at $34k flat).
Oddysey EX-L RES- the MSRP is $32410. You probably can get about $1k off sticker easily. So you are looking at $31,410. (unless you go with base EX-L or EX, you will not be able to get $500 over invoice).
So EX-L RES vs Sienna Pkg 7- is $31,410 vs $32,500.
But for extra 1k, you get a lot more on the Sienna.
Sienna pkg 7 has following items over Odyssey EX-L RES-
1. Upgrade stereo
2. Power liftgate
3. 17" tires with alloy vs 16" alloy on odyssey
4. true tri-zone automatic climate control (EX-L does not have ability to control temperatue in the rear from the front).
5. 2 115V power outlet, none on the odyssey EX,EX-L, EX-L res, EX-L navi+RES
6. 3 row sunshade vs 2 rows for Odyssey.
Odyssey has following over Sienna pkg #7.
1. VCM
2. Lazy Susan
3. Plus one seat that allows to it to carry 8 (although unless the 8th passenger is a kid or a midget, this seat is actually useless).
In the above case, both van has VSC/VSA, Curtain SRS, and side SRS.
However, you said that you wanted everything in power. Than that basically ruled out EX, EX-L res, EX-L. As power ligtgate is only available in Odyssey touring.
You can't get DVD in touring unless you order navigation system. Which means to get every power door, you are looking at $38,810 for touring+NAVI+RES.
Base touring is not selling- you can get one for $500 over inovoice easily. Let's take a look into XLE limited vs touring.
Base Ody touring $35,510, invoice $31,343. You can get one around $32k easily.
Ody touing navi+DVD(very hard to get, you will be lucky to get $500 off MSRP). $38,810, invoice $34558, you are probably looking at best case $38k flat.
XLE limited base- $35860, invoice $31,972, looking probably at $32.5k
XLE limited pkg #1 (Added DVD player)- $37560, $33,332, you are looking at $34k
XLE limited pkg #2 (DVD+NAVI)- $39440, invoice $34950, looking at $35.5k to $36k. On siennaclub.org, majority of the price is sub $36k right now.
Compare XLE limited to Odyssey touring.
Sienna has following feature over Odyssey touring.
1. Laser Cruise Control
2. HID headlight with manual heigt adjustment control. (dig previous post on why this is a very important safety feature)
3. 3 rows of sunshade vs honda's 2 row.
4. 2 115V Power outlet, vs one for honda touring.
Odyssey has following over Sienna
1. VCM
2. PAX run flat tire- (although I actually think this is a huge drawback on the odyssey, as this prevents you from going to regular tires and rims). If you have major tire/rims failure out in middle of nowhere, you are screwed because only honda dealer can replace the rims and tires. But the upside is that you do not need to stand on the side of road to change tires for up to 150 miles after flat.
Couple other thing to mention, based on your trim level preference. Sienna has better material for its interior, it's bigger, and offers longer powertrain warranty than Odyssey (5/60 vs 3/36).
Based on XLE limited vs Oddyssey touring, XLE's equipment level more than offset the miniscue cost difference. In addition, top of line XLE limited with pkg #2 (HO) at this time is at least $2k cheaper, while offering at least $2k more in standard equipement. (HID is about $700, and LCC is about $1500).
That's why I don't think on trim level at EX-L/touring vs sienna XLE/XLE limited Odyssey has any advantage in terms of value. If fact, XLE/XLE limited actually kills the EX-L/Toruing on value. Odyssey kills sienna on lower trims (espeically EX/LX vs base cloth XLE/LE).
Therefore at trims you are looking, here is a quick summary.
1. Safety- both are equal.
2. Comfort- Sienna wins. It has bigger interior and especially 3" wider 3rd row. However, I like Odyssey's driver seat more than I do with Sienna driver seat.
3. Price- per the discussion above, Sienna XLE/XLE limited has quiet a advantage over Odyssey touring and EX-L RES.
In addition, the little better mileage is a myth on the Odyssey. If you go to Odyclub and siennaclub and look at owner's gas mileage, you will find that Sienna without VCM actually gets slightly better gas mileage in real life than Odyssey. This is very simply due to the fact that sienna is 400 lbs lighter.
There are other things to consider as well.
1. Odyssey has better steering response (heavier power steering).
2. Sienna is quieter.
3. Sienna's 2nd row seat is much easier to fold than Odyssey. But neither are as good as DCX stow and go.
4. Odyssey 3rd row seat folding is one pull vs two pull on sienna. Although both are quiet easy.
5. Odyssey's electronic throttle mapping is better than sienna on the get go (that's why Odyssey feels peppier at dead stop and go).
6. Odyssey has more voice command vs Sienna (need to be retrofitted) for its navi.
7. Odyssey allows DVD control in much easier fashion than Sienna (if you have young kid that does not how to use remote, this is a problem for you).
Both van are great. But I like Sienna's excution much better. HID is a huge safey feature that you don't want to live without. Better warranty, richer material, and bigger space is also not replaceable.
I had experience with this 3.0 V6 since 1993.
This v6 started life in 1992 as iron block v6 in camry, upgraded to aluminum in 1994, and VVTI introduced in 02, and stroked to 3.3 on 04.
On my 1st experience- the 93 Camry Iron block, it lasted me 150k miles, sold it in 01 without any engine problem.
98 Sienna- Aluminum block, lasted me 72k miles again no problem with the engine.
01 RX300- aluminum block, sold the SUV at 27k miles and no problem.
The oil sludge issue can be avoived if the oil are changed in a timely manner. But this issue has long been resolved when the engine was stroked to 3.3 to be used on sienna, EX, RX, camry, and solara.
Seriously, I so wanted the Toyota & was getting sad about putting comfort over so much other important stuff...but with all you have been saying, I really don't have to!
I confess we did not do much pricing & after I posted last night I looked online & learned about the different packages - decided we probably would want the XLE FWD w/ pkg 7. Sent an email to a dealer & got a price quote of $33,388. Which is sooo much better!
But from what you are all saying, we can still do better - so thanks for the reassurances that it is JUST as good if not better than the Honda.
I think I can reassure my hubby that we will be doing good w/ the Toyota. I will let you know - soon I hope!
Again, thank you!!!!
Erika
More recommendation for you on car shopping.
Go to toyota website and find all dealers within 200 miles of you and send out massive e-mail for quote.
Stating exactly what you want. For example, in your case. XLE #7.
MSRP $36,265, invoice is $31774, and there is a $750 incentive on the Sienna. Therefore, your offer should be $31774+500 (dealer profit)- $750 incentive= $31524, and work your way up.
Within last couple days at siennaclub.org. People has been buying at below invoices (by about $200).
After you get the quote you wanted. Use that quote to see if the dealer closest to you will match.
the deal you currently have right now is $1800 too high.
Good luck to you. BTW, where are you located?
Edmunds does not seem to list the $750 incentive to which several posts refer. Anyone have any more info on this?
Thanks.
i don't know why is not listed. But i believe this is part of toyota nation wide winter event.
also, someone just posted a incredible deal on sienna limited FWD for $400 under Invoice at Siennaclub.org (bought at fitzgerald toyota at gaithersburg MD- funny thing is that I used to live 30 minutes from that dealer).
Anyway, just keep at it. You should be able to find a good deal.
They ran that promotion last weekend in Central Ohio and Siennas were excluded altogether. In NE Ohio, the incentive was $500 and available only on Camrys.
If you can land an XLE#7 for close to invoice, more power to you.
--> Andy
The VCM has been very well tested.
Honda has already done their own crash tests in their indoor facility which is the largest and most modern in the world. The government tests always reflect Hondas own results.
You won't go wrong either way.
You wrote, "The big difference of course is that the Sienna has the 4 wheel drive versus the Odyssey has the 2 wheel drive. If you get the Sienna XLE Limited 2 wheel drive then the invoice price drops to $34,950 which is almost identical to the Odyssey."
When I checked the options for the Sienna on the Toyota internet site, it seems as though there isn't a package that gives you the Rear Entertainment System with the XLE FWD. In other words, you must buy the XLE AWD or one of the XLE Limited vehicles in order to have the option to add on the RES. Am I right?
Rich
Three things I'd like to add:
Sienna comes standard with transmission and power steering colders for towing application. Couldn't hurt even in normal use without towing. Might extend the lifespan of the tranny even further.
Ody Premium Sound is no match for Sienna JBL
Six speakers with small sub woofer. vs. Ten speakers including specialized midrange and tweeters for surround sound in a an acustically designed layout.
Ody has one big advantage however... second row seats recline much further for passenger comfort.
Both are great vans I am also stuck between the Touring N/R and Sienna Ltd#2? However at $35,500 (Sienna Ltd#2) or there a bouts vs. $38,310 (Touring) Hands down value is Sienna Ltd#2!
XLE FWD can be ordered DVD in following pkg.
Pkg #5, #7, #8
VCM for honda is new. Real world experience is just starting in US, although VCM has been available in japan for about a year. So this is not well tested.
As far as crash test goes, I don't believe that honda would introduce a van that is worse than before, so i expect it to do well.
The two thing that honda has not done well are automatic transmission and brakes. Hopefully this will improved upon. At least so far the 5 speed automatic has shown much lower failure rate since 2004.