Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna

mcase2

Hey, thanks for sticking up for me. I at first thought that response was directed at me too. I'm relieved no one objects to my concerns about a VSC system that endangers people's lives.

cccompson

Although it's rated at 20/28, it is hard to see how a 4700 pound Touring could ever get 20 mpg in town.

I'll be tickled if I get 16-17 with mine (and I have a very easy foot).

6spdtl

Why do peple keep comparing the milage they get? its ridiculous, no one drives the same way. That is the reason behind the EPA ratings, they are carefully normalized so that acurate comparisons can be made. Very few peolple ever get the EPA milage since those are laboratory conditions, not real life. So all this discussion about milage is simple BS. If you want compare milage use the EPA figures all other saliva spent on the discussion is just a waste.

lumbar

IMO that's an oversimplification. In fact, enough people drive similarly enough in similar enough conditions to derive -some- useful conclusions about mileage from various experiences. That is certainly not to say that reading other's experiences will tell a person exactly what kind of mileage to expect. However, if a person collects enough anecdotal evidence, I believe you can get a useful picture of generally what to expect mileage-wise (probably within a couple of mpg)--in fact at least as good a picture as trying to extrapolate useful information from the EPA numbers that supposedly are at least good for making comparisons (but don't appear to be good even for that).

supcrds

However, if a person collects enough anecdotal evidence, I believe you can get a useful picture of generally what to expect mileage-wise

If you look on one of the other forums "05 ody fuel econ" or something like that, they are running a spread sheet with about 45 people entering the mileage covering around 3 months now. Very interesting. It showss the 05 ody is off the pace compared to the EPA figures. I know my 03 Ody is much closer to the EPA than the 05.

6spdtl

Quite the contrary EPA numbers are perfect for comparison since they take two vehicles and compare their milage under identical conditions, therefore its the perfect comparison. On the other hand peoples driving can vary exponentially even when they drive under the same conditions, some people hardly press the gas pedal from a stop other chump the accelerator to the metal even in 25 mph traffic, thus anecdotal comparisons are just that. That is why people complain that the can't get their hybrids to ever achieve EPA numbers especially in the city since truly nobody drives that way in the city, city driving is not only stop and go, for most people it also includes hard acceleration sudden stopping and contant weaving through traffic. The EPA estimates are almost very optimistic for city and usually right on for the highway since everybody cruising at 65 on the highway is essentailly driving the same way. BTW another good source is consumer reports since they do actual driving but under tightly controlled conditions in those tests the ody gave 1 less MPG and 1 more on the highway they both ended with the same average 19mpg that with the ody having more HP under the hood and the ody being about 300lbs more porky, you can certainly attribute those opposing specs to the cylinder deactivation system, if not the ody would be thirstier.

dulnev

"Why do peple keep comparing the milage they get? its ridiculous, no one drives the same way. That is the reason behind the EPA ratings, they are carefully normalized so that acurate comparisons can be made. Very few peolple ever get the EPA milage since those are laboratory conditions, not real life. So all this discussion about milage is simple BS."

Well, that's one (dumb) way of looking at things. But for me the EPA estimates have always been very close to what I got from other vehicles. Almost all of my previous vehicles were Honda and Acura. I've NEVER EVER seen such a huge disparity between rated and actual mileage! EVER! Twenty vs fourteen is 30% below EPA-rated. I consider this fraud, not minor aberation!

sportymonk

Peace folks.

1. EPA mileage figures do offer a standardized comparison between vehicles tested under the same conditions.

But vehicle design such as timing and cam design means that each type vehicle will respond differently to the same input. IE a heavy foot in a Toyota may not result in the same percentage change in mileage as the same heavy foot in a Honda, etc.

2. Personal driving habits do mean that there will be variances in mileage recorded but statistically, given a large enough sample group, there will tend to be trends that will be valid. If 100,000 Sienna drivers get 10 city / 13 Hwy then obviously there is a devience that goes beyond any one driver and could point to a significant issue.

Very few people get the EPA figures but the EPA test are done (to the best of my knowledge) in wind tunnels with a lot of factors "calculated" in.

Each set of figures has meaning. The problem is to determine the meaning to the figures.

Remember:"Figures Lie and liars figure." (Snicker, apologies to staticians)

lastwraith

No problem, although I seemed to be a bit out of it that night, haha.

hansienna

In the real world of Edmund's long term testing, the 1999 Odyssey EX got THE BEST gas mileage (18.3 MPG overall) of any minivan while the 2004 Sienna XLE (16.0 MPG) is not actually getting mileage as good as the Odyssey.
The 2001 Grand Caravan ES with old technology pushrod 3.8L V6 and 4 speed automatic transmission delivered considerably better gas mileage (17.8 mpg) during Edmund's long term test than has the Sienna.
However, the new 2005 Odyssey is NOT doing as well as either the 1999 Odyssey or 2001 Grand Caravan ES. The 2005 Odyssey has a long term average of 17.0...NOT as good as the 1999 Ody or 2001 GC but still considerably better than the 2004 Sienna.

activex111

Hi,
Just like a lot of forum users here, I am also comparing Sienna LE and Ody EX and can't seem to decide between the two. I have a few questions.

I test drove the ody and at the dealer, it was parked on a slightly elevated platform and while taking it out, the front bumper touched the ground and then I noticed that the van is verrrry low. After checking the numbers , i saw that groundclearance in ody is just 4.6" compared to 6.1" in sienna. I know vans are not offroad to have big groundclearance, but that seems too low to me.. has anyone seen problems with bumper rubbing against parking blocks or elevated surface?

ANother thing that bugs me with Sienna are the optional packages.. the dealers never seem to have exact what you need and always have a lot of additonal stuff for inflated price. with ody. thats not a problem.

Also, i saw some posts on MSN about gas leak problme in ody. has anyone heard of it?

hansienna

In the many times I have driven and been a passenger in a 2001 Ody EX, I have never noticed it rubbing the ground.
Agree that Sienna optional packages are confusing and overpriced. Front and rear seat comfort is comparable in the Ody and Sienna but the Ody 2nd row seats are much more comfortable than those in the Sienna 2nd row.

lumbar

Not that this is of any great help, but the issue of the ground clearance on these two vehicles is a source of confusion. I wish someone would straighten it out since it matters to those of us who plan some light recreational use of the vans (not serious off-roading, obviously).

The *published* ground clearance for the 05 Sienna FWD, per Toyota, is 6.9 inches (not 6.1). That's not bad. Supposedly, the AWD version sits slightly higher, but I've never seen anyone put an actual figure on that. However, I've also seen other numbers for the FWD version tossed around despite the fact that Toyota's spec sheet gives a specific number. The most recent Consumer Reports minivan comparison gives the FWD ground clearance as 5.5 in., and, despite the fact that they differ substantially from Toyota's number, no explanation is given.

To my knowledge, Honda does not publish an "official" number for the Ody, and I haven't seen one on any spec sheet. The Consumer Reports article says 5.0 inches, but, since their Sienna number is at least questionable, this one may be too. However, I've also heard elsewhere that it is 4.9 inches, which is quite low. But that's hearsay.

Having stood around and behind both (but without a tape measure), it appears to me that the Ody sits at least an inch lower and possibly more--particularly in the rear--but that's an estimate too.

Also agree 100% with you on the rigidity of the Sienna option packages and their availability in different regions. IMO, they make certain options prohibitively expensive and probably drive a lot of people to an LE with modest extras or to an Ody EX-L. I basically prefer the Sienna, but the EX-L seems to me to be the most bang for the buck if priced somewhat close to invoice..

6spdtl

This is my third Ody, the only time any of them has rubbed the pavement was with the hitch of my 1'st generation.

haseebkhawaja

Hi, I was here on this website a few months ago before buying Sienna. My wife and I bought a Sienna XLE Limited AWD 2005 Loaded and we love every moment of driving this car. A number of times we have crossed Honda's on the road and Toyota just looks superior, no problems at all. As for mileage, living in -30 F temps, I have to leave it running for a long time before I can drive it anyway. I am not fond of the quick pick either. Lots of space in it for grocery, luggage and furniture all together. It has very comfortable seating. Our 20 month old loves his Barney DVD! We enjoy the navigation system (no more, I said right turn) and I enjoy the 10 speakers more when I am alone in the car!! I consider myself fortunate that I have not had to test the drive flat tires yet.

I just wanted to join those who like Toyota's and say good about them. Wish you new buyers all the best.

Haseeb Khawaja

activex111

I think only the 05 ody is low.. the specs i got were from autos.msn.com.. not that it matters a lot, but such low clearance for such a heavy vehicle caught my attention

svenw

One aspect you have not hit on in this thread is that there are people out there that do not want or need the side curtain air bags (SCA). For example, my in-laws own two minivans and use both to carry cargo (photograhic equipment for one and ballet costumes for the other). They prefer the car like handling of the minivan over that of more traditional full size vans. The mileage is better and the fifth door is critical as well to their needs.

With this is mind, Toyota is simply allowing the consumer to choose this added safety feature, where as Honda does not. I imagine that in a few years, SCA will become standard fair on all minivans. Until that happens, it still a free market.

jipster

The side curtain airbag protects the driver as well. How would your in-laws not "need" this? I can see not wanting SCA due to the cost...but unless your wearing a football or motorcycle helmet you would "need" SCA in the event of a side impact collision.

denver5357

"Well, that's one (dumb) way of looking at things. But for me the EPA estimates have always been very close to what I got from other vehicles."

Sorry, gotta agree with 6sp here. If EPA estimates today are not as close as what you used to get, then your beef is with the EPA, not Honda. Someone posted a link in one of these threads yesterday that went to an article in which EPA was criticized by AAA for having less and less realistic mpg estimates on new vehicles.

Sportymonk says later that a large enough statistical sampling of [name car] owners who report their milesage accurately will yield an overall average that could be compared to the EPA estimate, but I have seen nowhere near a large enough sampling for that. There are probably 20 people who are mad about their mileage and who report what they get, so you just need another 999,980 people and you might have something there.

Basically, 6sp is right. EPA tests cars the same way, so EPA estimates relative to each other provide a useful yardstick. But EPA conducts tests in optimal conditions, so real world drivers are unlikely to match EPA estimates. People can complain all they want, but it is just anecdotal and there is no way to truly say a person's mileage is unacceptably lower than the EPA estimates unless we all observe that person drive over a period of time to see if they do anything that could contribute to the low mileage.

stever

I've always gotten EPA estimated mpg on my cars, but it's definitely an issue with lots of people:

AAA: EPA's mileage tests are outdated (News Advance)

Steve, Host

lastwraith

I am going to have to agree here.
Not having side curtains standard on the Siennas was a definite turn off for me. People who are minivan shopping are going to be VERY concerned with safety, as they are going to be using this as the family vehicle in most cases. I can see people possibly raising issues with front airbags deploying too harshly, in cases where not needed, and a few other instances but I think there is no excuse for not including SCA standard.

Any safety feature that makes as much a difference as SCA should be standard on a family vehicle....period. Really any crash safety feature should be standard but if wishes were horses...

lumbar

I wish I could understand why the availability of equipment as -standard- is such an issue provided the equipment is readily available as an option. Side curtains can be easily obtained on a Sienna if one wants them. IMO the whole corporate responsibility issue extends to making a safety item readily available without gouging, not to forcing those who prefer not to pay for something to buy it anyway. There are Sienna LE's with side curtains easily available for around 26K.

fballard

We find the "low down" Odyssey very easy to slide into/out of. Great for us older folks and should be great for everyone. Sure beats having to climb up into something or slide down into something. My 05 EXL is getting around 21 mpg
mixed driving.

mommyoffour

SCA is NOT available as an option on Sienna sold in Canada. Only available as standard on fully loaded XLE or XLE AWD. I believe Toyota dropped the ball with respect to safety, but it made our decision that much easier - we pick up our EX-L next week.

dilbertzzz

if you do a search on available inventory from the Toyota web site, you will most likely find that your selection of options cannot be found in your area (try the power adjustable pedals, for instance). It's a situation of giving with the one hand while taking away with the other. For some reason it is incredibly irritating to see that options are supposedly available only to find out that, in my area at the very least, they are not actually to be found. Why bother to offer something only to tick off potential buyers by telling them, "Oh sorry. You can't actually get that!" At least with Honda it's WYSIWYG.

lumbar

I agree with you 100%--I would do the same. It's ridiculous that you can't get an LE up north with side curtains, especially since they are readily available just across the border.

dilbertzzz--no power adjustable pedals AFAIK on any Sienna, but telescopic wheel not on the Ody "instead." But agreed Toyota's handling of their option packages is a pain.

devs

I am in the market for a van and looking at both the vans and can't decide. I want to have Leather, FWD, DVD, Navigation, Rear Camera. I don't really care for the sun-moon roof. It seems that the Ody EX-L with DVD/NAV is considerably cheaper than Sienna XLE/Package#8 (MSRP 34000 vs 38000 approx). Any suggestions?

cccompson

They are both excellent products. Spend some time with (and drive) both and determine which better suits you, both as to features and driveability.

I will say, though, that the navigation and entertainment systems in the Honda are superior to those in the Toyota.

siennaman2

I couldn't agree with you more!! We purchased XLE Limited FWD with DVD and NAV we have no need for AWD.
Eliminate the guesswork just get the limited, then you know you have it all. Odyssey is also a great product however dealers in Las Vegas will not negotiate and it is impossible to find ex-L with DVD and Nav. I did not like touring model. Before buying any van i would suggest taking Limited on test drive first. you too will be convinced. PS my 5 foot wife has no problem reaching brake pedals

hansienna

dilbertzzz voiced the opinion of many of us. Toyota options available in only certain areas of the country is disgusting. Honda packaging is more acceptable.

camlamarca

We don't want an ugly van, but they are so darn practical. In fact, my other half did not even consider the Ody for poor looks, but thought the Sienna was smooth.

The Ody, has that ugly door track on the side, and the Sienna has no flare. However, they both still got a test drive out of my wife and I.

Results: Sienna got kicked of the list for not having 8 seat option with 2 power doors, and a very lethargic drive in both steering and acceleration.

Ody went from off the list to way on the top of the list for a wonderful responsive drive, and very likable interior.

Now if Armada brakes could get fixed . . .

macakava

"Now if Armada brakes could get fixed . . . "

There goes the ego (i.e. manhood, bein fashionable with the Jonses, etc) thing again. Good case in point.

One more time: It has been stated that many SUV owners wish for the practicality, versatility, flexibility and comfort of a minivan, but their ego won't allow them.

lumbar

I dunno; I'd agree that, with respect to some smaller, sportier vehicles, the minivan might qualify as unattractive. But when you move into the SUV class, I don't see how the bloated, steroidal look of most SUVs qualifies them as more attractive. In fact, I prefer the appearance of the minivan to the "trying-to-hard-too-be-rugged" look adopted by a lot SUVs. So this would appear to an each to his/her own thing.

BTW, the 0-60 times of the Ody-Sienna are almost identical but I'd agree (from limited exposure) that there are differences in ride/handling, depending on one's preferences..

dilbertzzz

...buy some big, chrome brush guards from a Tahoe or something and have a body shop weld those babies onto your minivan, for that "on-steroids" look. They would certainly be as useful as 98% of the same add-ons found on SUVs! ;-)

delirious_car

I agree with you 100% and say, if you want or need them get them. Toyota just wants to make the choice to their customers.

I also think that auto manufactures should develop a SCA system that can deploy at lesser force, when small children are in the out-board seating positions.

delirious_car

"Trying-too-hard-to-be-rugged"

Like the Ford Explorer. It doesn't even offer skid plates!

camlamarca

hahaha

Well my first vote was on Sienna before the drive, now totally on the Ody. However, neither pleases the mom because of style.

In my case it's the female ego that dreams "Armada". Husband wants the Ody and not just because it's cheaper, wifey wants not to be seen in a van, but avoids a direct why. I look around these days, and it seems it's the female population in the big SUVs. It may be an SUV fad, the like of putting rings on the toes, etc. While older and mothers, I think of high school where most girls have to copy each other on style regardless of cost and practicality. I guess there are no more vehicles left exclusively for men to feel manly outside of a pickup truck with hunting gear mounts.

However, I would be happiest to haul the family in the air bag safe, roomy, and technology cool Ody.

macakava

I empathize with you. Like you, I enjoy my Ody for the car handling performance/comfort, the practicality, etc it provides. We have no manhood issues!

Your right. The feminist movement appeared to have nutured many females to act like men and like/drive vehicles that were typically favored by men.

Maybe it is to demonstrate that women are as "powerful" as men.

By the way, who wears the pants in your house?
I was just joking!!

This may be the start of an interesting long thread....

rorr

"This may be the start of an interesting long thread...."

Or, more likely, a very interesting SHORT thread....

Actually, in my family it was somewhat the same. Wife really really wanted a new Toyota Sequoia. I kept telling her how much more practical (roomy, efficient, easier to drive, cheaper) a nice minivan would be. And her response was "....but it's a MINIVAN". Like camlamarca, my wife just really liked the image of her 4runner better than anything else and thought she could only be happy in a still bigger/taller SUV.

But now that we've got it, she really likes her new Odyssey.

stever

a very interesting SHORT thread....

Very short, or I'm going to start posting my bumper sticker around.

It's time to go Beyond the Cupholder.

Steve, Host

macakava

I could start another thread(short or long) about where (in men or women?) emotions run higher than practicality to feed one's image...

But it appears that in the end, common sense prevails in your selection and final enjoyment.

ENJOY!

macakava

Steve,

Two of the most memorable bumper stickers I have seen are,

1.) Hit me, I want retire early

2.) Drive closer - to smell HOT AIR!

Number 2 can set you thinking...

dilbertzzz

macakava: 2.) Drive closer - to smell HOT AIR!

As I am too-rapidly becoming an old one of the double portion of that entendre, I understood it quite well!

WRT the now-female aversion to soccer-mom-in-a-minivan typecasting, isn't it a shame they don't make SUV slipcovers for minivans? (Sorry, watching too much HGTV lately!) ;-)

stever

Time to plug another fun discussion:

The license plate/bumper sticker I saw today...

That was Zen, this is Tao....

Steve, Host

dilbertzzz

It's little Tao much, if you ask me! ;-)

devs

I have done test drives of both now. My wife likes Ody as we already have an Accord and the drive is very similar. I like Sienna because it just feels very luxurious. With Ody my wife had one concern regarding the side door rails -- in winter will they open properly in the icy conditions? With Sienna the DVD and Navigation seems to sub-par compared to Ody.

One last thing -- the prices. Ody (EX-L+DVD+Nav) is offered to me at roughly 33300.00 + tax and title. Toyota on the otherhand FWD XLE+Package 8 is offered to me at around 36000.00 and XLE Premium+ Package 2 at 38500.00. Are these prices in proper ranges? Based on these prices alone I am leaning toward Ody.

cccompson

Power sliding doors can (and do) freeze shut in the winter - not all the time but enough in certain weather to be an irritant. The Odyssey navigation and entertainment systems are better. I agree that the Sienna feels higher line but, hey, first things first - keep your wife happy.

Price comparisons are wholly dependent on location. I bought an Odyssey Touring R&N here in Ohio for invoice last month, something I couldn't do with a Sienna. Yet in certain locales, Toyotas are more heavily discounted than Hondas.

I don't know about the Toyota numbers, but your quote on an EX-L R&N only ok, not great - my Touring R&N cost $34,558.

stever

Check out the Prices Paid & Buying Experiences discussions too. And the TMV link on the main edmunds.com page for pricing averages in your zip code.

Steve, Host

hike4fun

New to the forum and wrestling with the Ody vs. Sienna dilemma. Your feedback on these issues would be appreciated:

1) Is the Ody VCM a gimmick or the next great thing?
2) Another post asked the great question: 40k miles on three cylinders and 60k on the other three- is this bad?
3) Do you really use the Lazy Susan? Do Sienna owners really miss it?
4) Ody owners- how useful is the driver side power door given that it can be opened from inside the vehicle?

Looking at Ody EXL vs. Sienna LE-7 with option package #5. That is if I sorted through Toyota's IRS-inspired option list correctly. Even Toyota dealers tell me it is overly complicated.

Thanks,

RM

mot

We have a 2005 HO EX purchased in Oct 2004.

1) and 2) Our model is not equipped with VCM so I'll let others tackle these.

3) We don't use the lazy susan. We removed it to stow the plus-one seat. As a storage space its great but we didn't think the lazy susan in itself was all that important.

4) We love having power sliders on both sides. Keeps the kids more civil with the ease of entering and exiting on both sides of the vehicle.

Good luck with your buying decision. It was a tough one for us with these same two vehicles as many others have commented on in these forums.