My son's 2001 Ody EX with VTEC 3.5L V6 has no better acceleration at speeds under 45 or 50 MPH than either another son's 2001 GC Sport
Keep in mind, that 2001 EX you speak of had(has) only 210 horsepower, not the 240 hp of the 2002-2004 models, or 245ish (is it 244, I forget?) of the latest one. It still had more punch when downshifting (it was a 4-speed Auto at that time, too, just like ours) and getting into the 3,500-4,500 RPM range and passing than the one DCX van I've driven - a 1999 Grand Voyager Sport. It was fairly new though, so I didn't push it hard so it could be broken in easily.
The only time I noted any real difference between the new Odyssey and Sienna in acceleration is for passing power. I can't do measurements, of course, but the Odyssey felt much quicker. Various magazine tests confirm this, also.
With a full load of passengers on hilly roads, it may be all the more noticable.
The 2006 Honda Odyssey 5dr EX has the following advantages over the 2006 Toyota Sienna 5dr LE 7-Passenger: # 29 more horsepower (244 vs 215). # 18 more ft/lbs of torque (240 vs 222). # Passenger Front-Impact Airbag on/off switch standard, versus not available. # Electronic Climate Control standard, versus not available. # Rear AC standard, versus not available.
Those info can be taken from carcostcanada. For those of you who would like to compare cars, the infos you'll find there could be useful but may not necessarily be the only reason to buy.
The example above has almost identical price. You can also compare them side to side if you want.
We are looking to buy another minivan. We have an 03 Sienna, but with all the problems it had (radiator, fuel leak, seatbelts, etc), we thought we should consider the Honda Odyssey. However, on that forum, there seem to be many unhappy people with humming/vibration noises and poor dealer response to that.
So, now we are in a quandary. Sienna or Odyssey? I am wondering how many of your new Sienna owners decided against the Odyssey for the noises or other problems? Thanks in advance for any help you can give us!
"The 2006 Honda Odyssey 5dr EX has the following advantages over the 2006 Toyota Sienna 5dr LE 7-Passenger: # 29 more horsepower (244 vs 215). # 18 more ft/lbs of torque (240 vs 222). # Passenger Front-Impact Airbag on/off switch standard, versus not available. # Electronic Climate Control standard, versus not available. # Rear AC standard, versus not available. "
The Sienna automatically shuts off the front airbags if there is less than 80 lbs in the seat. Much better than a switch that may be accidently left off. Maybe the Odyssey is automatic as well and the data is wrong on both counts.
Rear A/C is standard on all Siennas.
Electronic climate control is also available. It is probably standard depending on the definition of electronic.
I would not trust carcostdata too much for reliable info.
This horsepower thing is a non-issue. The Odyssey weighs more. A suburban has more hp than the Odyssey - does that make it faster? Is it really an advantage. The whole "it feels faster" is subjective. The quieter smoother riding vehicle will never "feel" as fast.
Try driving a Triumph Spitfire with the top down - it seems like a rocket, but is actually not very fast. Being low to the ground with lots of noise and a stiff ride makes it feel fast.
Airbag on/off switches are generally limited to vehicles without a rear seat. The Sienna and Odyssey have sensors that automatically enable/disable the front airbags.
Both the Sienna and Odyssey have auto climate control on higher trim levels, but base models are manual.
The horsepower/torque issue does not really translate to performance gains except maybe in passing power. At moderate RPMs, the Odyssey not only "feels" faster, but is measured faster by Consumer Reports and Motor Trend. Still, only a half a second, so not a huge difference. Important or not depends on the driver, but I'm happy to have it when carrying the family and luggage on hilly roads. The braking and handling differences may be more noticable, IMO.
For those looking at 8-passenger Sienna (LE) and Odyssey (EX), I have a pretty exhaustive feature comparison posted at epinions and major Odyssey and Sienna Owner's Club forums. There are quite a number of minor differences not listed here.
No reason to argue. Odyssey owners KNOW they have the best minivan on the planet. :shades: The Sienna LE is comparable in content to the Odyssey EX (cloth) and normally sells for $ 2,000 to $ 2,500 LESS...which for many people, makes the Sienna LE - THE BEST DEAL.
"The Sienna LE is comparable in content to the Odyssey EX (cloth) and normally sells for $ 2,000 to $ 2,500 LESS..."
Well, that obviously depends on how one defines "comparable".
TMV for an Ody EX (cloth) in my neck of the woods is a bit over $27k. To get a COMPARABLE Sienna LE, one would have to get one with pkg#4 and optional floormats (for the VSC and power driver's seat) with a TMV of about $26.3k.
So, yes the Sienna LE is less than the Ody EX. But comparable (IMO) versions are closer in price than the $2-2.5k delta you quoted.
Sounds about right. When I ordered a Sienna after comparing out-the-door prices of the LE8 pkg. 4 with an EX, the Sienna was about $600 less or so. Of course, it all depends on the best deals in any particular area. In Chicago, Odysseys can easily be purchased under invoice like the Sienna, but that may not be the case yet in other cities. Also, Toyota often has $500 or $1000 rebates in some regions, so that would add to the Sienna's advantage.
Also, if you add floormats and a cargo net to the Sienna you need to add roof rack crossbars to the Odyssey;-)
Some features you'd get on the EX but not on the LE pkg 4: Rollover sensing side curtain airbags with sensors for all 3 rows, driver side power sliding door, lazy susan storage, 2nd row sunshades, auto climate control, anti-theft security system, speed sensitive wipers, cargo net, floor mats.
Some features you'd get on the LE8 Pkg 4 but not on the EX: DRLs, auto door locks, wiper de-icer, TPM, telescopic steering wheel, 3rd row tilt windows, compass/trip computer, MP3 capable CD changer, aux audio input jack, additional LATCH locations, roof rack crossbars.
Sorry, I worded that poorly. I was indeed referring to the rollover deployment capability. Honda also claims the Odyssey is the only minivan to have side airbag deployment sensors at each row of seating.
We went on two test drives today. Sienna CE vs. Odyssey LX. We got to the Toyota dealer first, get this high pressure sales pitch from a guy who is obviously new and has not sold any cars and is nervous but is obviously in the wrong business and fumbling all over the place. We go out on to the lots to look at the Siennas and I am not terribly impressed with the interiors. I mean, I guess I'm expecting too much, but obviously minivans are going to have vast swaths of hard plastic and only if you pony up nearly $40g's do you get all the leather and wood and toys. I am also not too thrilled with the seat fabric. So we find one we like, request a test drive, and it doesn't happen. The van doesn't start. In the next 45 minutes the guy fumbles around to try to get the van started, gives up, drives to the office and retrieves the keys to first one, and then another, all three times having the same problem. These are brand new minivans! The last one manages to start but fails to stay running. The whole while we're choking on pollen that has coated the whole interior of this van because someone left the windows open. My limited patience was at an end by this time and my wife is now strongly rebelling against this van in spite of owning a Highlander and being a devoted disciple of the Toyota way, so we drove a few miles down the road to the Honda dealership.
What a difference! We walk in, expecting similar high pressure but I abruptly tell the guy we're just there to drive and are not ready to commit yet. He immediately walks to the back to get the keys and within minutes we have the van started up and are on the way. Our experience at this dealership was far far better, the salesman actually knows what he's doing and talking about, and their sales strategy is more "What can we do for you today?" as opposed to "Let me get all your information and introduce you to my manager." The Odyssey even in base trim is a very handsome and sharp van. Opening the door, first impressions are not good. The lower glove box is misaligned, the upper glovebox feels very cheap and flimsy and there are various other trim pieces in the interior that are flimsy and somewhat misaligned. These would not be an issue in another brand but they certainly don't reinforce the stellar engineering and quality reputation Honda has forged for itself. The materials in my parents' 99 model, while much harder and less appealing overall, were at least put together perfectly. Perhaps more troubling, these types of materials and finish would never pass standards at Toyota. The Siennas all had precisely assembled and reasonable feeling materials if a bit bland and boring to look at. The Odyssey cabin actually looked much cooler and more expensive but in actual quality there is a profound difference between the two vans.
This concludes anything negative I have to say about the Odyssey because the drive was absolutely fabulous. I kid you not, this thing drives no different than an Accord. It is so secure, stable, smooth, responsive, even a touch sporty. Honda has pulled off nothing less than an engineering miracle for making a 4,400 pound vehicle so benign and friendly and easy to drive. Further cementing our positive impressions, the powertrain is absolutely unlabored and unstrained, smoothly revving up into the heart of its powerband and the shifts happening with seamless and sweet precision. There was no hesitation, indecisiveness, or anything less than absolute and immediate power. And the best part? It's almost utterly silent with only a muted, high quality, satisfyingly sporty growl escaping under heavy throttle. What an amazing powertrain!
While the Odyssey's interior quality may not stand up to the Sienna's you can certainly tell where all the engineering and production money went. This thing pours itself down the road like an Acura. I actually had fun driving it! Of course I don't have anything to compare it to... I think we'll still go drive a Sienna but it has a lot of convincing to do given the subpar experience we had today. It seems the Sienna has more convenience features, though it lacks some of the nifty Odyssey features like middle row underfloor storage and truly easy to fold third row seats. Even though the Odyssey costs at least $1,000 more it has some features like stability control, four wheel disc brakes, and a multilink rear suspension (as opposed to torsion beam) which seems to make it a better value from an engineering perspective. Moving up to the LE model would improve the Sienna's level of standard equipment so perhaps it would be more evenly matched.
I have been reading alot up on it, but people are not helpful. I just recentlly started putting my cars in Nutural when I am slowing down to a stop. I heard this saves alot of milage on your transmission in the long run. I do find it alot easier to stop, but I want to know if this is going to screw up my transmission. Poeple said that it is actually better for your transmission, only if you come to a complete stop before putting it back into Drive, and others said it is bad for your tranny but couldnt give a reason. What would you guys suggest, because I know the Odyssey has a reputation for having tranny problems, and I would want to screw anything up. Thanks for the input.
05ody and cpsdarren, thank you both for your responses and advice
My wife and I drove and thoroughly examined the Sienna CE and LE today at a different dealership, this time with no pushy salespeople and clean, perfectly functioning vehicles being readily available. We came to the conclusion that the Sienna, to our eyes, is a striking and handsome design (for a minivan). The 06 styling changes have really improved it in this regard and we really like it in almost every color, particularly white, the varying earth tones, and that insect green. The interior, again, while purely functional and boring, really leaped out at me as being tightly screwed together and finished to the usual Toyota standards. The van's ergonomics, dash, and trim are intelligently designed all around, maximizing occupant comfort, space, and visibility. We really loved the interior of the Sienna more than the Odyssey for its superior assembly quality (fewer squeaks and rattles over the long haul?) and the thoughtfulness of its designers in creating the definitive environment for a family on the go.
So on to the long awaited test drive! Let me start by saying we will not be buying the Sienna. It is no longer in consideration. Why, after all the positive comments above, and being loyal Toyota consumers, currently in possession of an 05 Highlander and having owned Camrys, Corollas, an Avalon, and even an old FJ in the past? The Sienna offers nowhere near the handling, steering feel, and suspension control that the Odyssey does. We were not being yahoos on the test drive and pushing the car in a way it was never meant to be driven. Indeed, this was a low speed drive at a city clip in stop and go traffic and on some curvy backroads at or below the posted speed limits. It is almost unsettling how much slop and play there is in the steering wheel and how much suspension movement occurs in just basic maneuvers. The road and wind noise isolation was more notable for its presence than the other way around, as our Highlander, with its more blocky shape, is somehow quieter. I could hear rushing wind and the sounds of cars in adjacent lanes much more so than in the Odyssey. At one point I was checking to make sure all windows were closed.
The engine, while certainly smooth and making all the right sounds, was noticeably laboring to move the big Sienna around, revving higher, longer, and more audibly than the Odyssey's powerplant in similar conditions and requiring far more throttle input. With the Odyssey it really was effortless to pull away from a stop, attain velocity, and maintain it, even up hills which were taken with a "what hill?" eagerness. Literally all I had to do was toe the throttle in the Odyssey and it all just seemed so efficient so it's baffling to me that people are getting such poor economy with the Honda. Maybe its short trips and a heavy throttle foot? I don't think the revs ever had to come up beyond 3k, and even then for just a second, to move briskly around in the Odyssey where the Sienna revs and revs and revs, albeit smoothly and queitly, though with noticeably more vibration than the Honda. If it tells you anything, our Highlander is as dog slow as vehicles come on the Americn market, with its 160hp 4cylinder engine (although getting the full 27mpg hwy and 22mpg in mixed driving), and my wife could not tell a perceptible difference betwen it and the Sienna's power delivery in spite of the 55 hp difference. To be honest with you, and pehaps hampered by the Sienna's considerable weight, the 3.3 liter feels no different than Toyota's legendary 3.0 liter V6 in our Avalon nearly ten years ago. In two words, it feels outdated and outgunned. I know many have argued that the HP and torque difference between the two is small on paper, that the Toyota engine produces more torque at lower rpm, and that the Odyssey weighs more, negating any power advantages. I am here to tell you that this is simply not the case, and a quick drive will verify it.
In conclusion, the Sienna, while offering a tangibly higher quality interior, better packaging and more usable space, a lower price, and presumably greater reliability, falls flat on its face where driving dynamics are concerned. Indeed it may actually be unsafe to be that disconnected from the road in an evasive manuever. What were Toyota suspension engineers benchmarking? Even the Daimler-Chrysler vans are far more connected to the road and more predictable in their reponses while retaining a comfortable ride. And finally, the powertrain, while certainly better than anything else in its class, does not match up to the Odyssey for sheer effortless grunt and smoothness. The test drive made our choice very easy. We will be looking at Odyssey's next week.
did you go to another dealership to test drive the Sienna? it seems the first dealership that had several units on the lot that wouldn't start is just shooting themselves in the foot!!! you told the manager right?
one comment about the Odyssey's power and driving dynamics: i find in our '03, when we've taken the seats out to move between houses, you know: lug furniture, boxes of books, tools, toys and even gardening and home improvement supplies... when it's well loaded, i appreciate it's abilities in these areas even more.
I'll attempt to bottom line it for all the readers.
I test drove both the 2006 Sienna XLE and 2006 Odyssey LX. If you want a sportier ride, more horses and a better looking exterior, go with the Honda product. If you want a more comfortable and better looking interior, more cargo space and a quieter cabin, go with the Toyota. Make sure you get the traction control and four wheel discs, however. Both are excellent products and it was a difficult decision. I have also been told that Toyota automobiles are engineered more logically than Honda which makes them easier to repair when the time comes.
Excellent reviews. We ordered a Sienna LE-8 about 6 months ago. Unfortunately, we couldn't get a delivery date even weeks after the order, when I sold our previous Odyssey. We also liked the Sienna interior all around for being more functional. I liked the performance of the Odyssey in terms of handling, braking and passing power, but my wife didn't notice much difference. Basically, I pretty much agree with your review. I also appreciated that the Odyssey seat backs and head restraints adjusted to me a little better and the side curtain airbags with sensors in all three rows plus rollover deployment. The extra power sliding door was a bonus.
My kids might have been the clincher. I had hoped to put all three in the second row of the Sienna. After a couple weeks of having all three in the back row of our Outback, I knew that wasn't going to work on a daily basis. The stowable PlusOne seat turned out to work nicer for our family.
Still, I'd be driving a Sienna today if I hadn't decided to splurge on an EX-L. Even after I got a great offer on the Odyssey that was supposed to arrive within 10 days, I would have still purchased the Sienna if they would have given me any firm delivery date within the next month. Even a convincing lie would have done it;-)
I have no regrets with the Odyssey. My only ongoing complaint is the road/tire nosie at highway speeds. I also would have been just as happy with the Sienna. You really can't go wrong with either one.
I have no regrets with the Odyssey. My only ongoing complaint is the road/tire nosie at highway speeds.
You may want to check out extra insulation for under the carpeting. It's been a few years, but I remember 3M had a product that was thin and rubbery, and you would install it under the carpeting, and it provides a good bit of extra sound insulation from noises from the engine chamber / wheel well / road surface. Makes most sense in the driver / front passenger area.
I just recentlly started putting my cars in Nutural when I am slowing down to a stop. I heard this saves alot of milage on your transmission in the long run. I do find it alot easier to stop, but I want to know if this is going to screw up my transmission. Poeple said that it is actually better for your transmission, only if you come to a complete stop before putting it back into Drive, and others said it is bad for your tranny but couldnt give a reason.
I am no auto engineer but this sounds like a bad thing to me. Modern transmissions are designed to handle their jobs pretty well.
I do know that for manual transmissions the following is my practice: when coming to a stop (anticipated), keep the car in the same gear until you get close to where the engine rpms would be close to lugging the engine, then put the transmission in neutral for the rest of the stop. Doing so (keeping it in a high gear, rather than down-shifting) uses very little engine braking, and hence less stress on the engine and transmission. It also saves gas (putting a car in neutral means that you have to use gas to spin it at its RPM, whereas when you slow, the fuel injection cuts most gas delivery, and the engine is spinning through the rolling of the wheels, and then through the transmission).
As for an automatic, the natural tendency of the automatics is to replicate this procedure until the "lugging" point, at which point the transmission will then shift itself to the next lowest gear. This shift is a fairly gentle transition (the gears are pretty close, and you are at low engine RPM), and hence there should be little wear on the transmission from these shifts. Shifting to neutral might eliminate these transitions, but you then have to do the transition from neutral to drive. When you shift into drive from neutral, feel the jolt. That transition is what may cause wear. That said, I don't think there is much wear if you are going from a complete stop into drive - that's what it's designed to do.
But the problem with shifting to neutral while stopping is that you might make a mistake and shift at the wrong time / wrong direction (reverse), and cause much more harm than you could possibly save in slowing to a stop in neutral.
So, I'd recommend against it - not much benefit, and a risk of a big harm. But then again, I'm no auto engineer ...
I'm thinking a tire upgrade and some sound coating in the wheel wells are in the future, too. We don't take road trips too often, but even a modest improvement would help when you're driving a full day.
Thanks for the info. I see what you mean, but when I do it I notice the Odyssey returns to idleing rpm when its in neutreal, and I thought it might be better. I heard it saves milage on your tranny. I did the other day end up putting it in nutureal for a red light and it turned green, so I had to put it back into drive. I did feel the jolt, and lol needless to say it didnt feel very good. but I do find when you come to a complete stop it doesnt do this, and it is easier to stop the Ody. And I tried from a stop, and there is a lock from Neutreal to reverse. So I wounder if maybe this would be useful for comming off a freeway to a complete stop, to take it out of gear? (going from 100KM/H to 0)? :confuse:
I've driven both new vans on the highway extensively and here's my earpinion. The Odysseys is quiter in the frontseat than the Sienna. The Sienna is quiter in the middle and back row seats than the Odyssey. The difference in dB is not much more than 1 or 2. The Siennas have better noise insulation and interior materials than the Odysseys. On the other hand, the Oddysseys have the noise cancellation system. Examine the interior panels and you will see what I mean. Personally, I prefer the Sienna because of its soft ride and its Lexus enviant.
My sister and I bought our vans at the same time. We have and done similar driving condition. I bougth the 2000 Sienna and drove for 125,000 without any problem. My sister bought the 2000 Odyssey and drove for 115,000. She have change her timing belt twice and a new tranny. One major factor that I will not buy an Odyssey is the fact that if the timing belt breaks, the valves will be crushed. This translate to an expensive engine repair. With the Sienna, you just replace the timing belt if it breaks. I don't mean to brag but I just want to give a lot of credit to Toyota. After 24 oil changes , 1 new batteries, a couple of transmission fluid flush and 1 coolant flush, my Sienna is still running like the first day I bought it. Also, I want to see how many milage I can get from my Sienna timing belt.
We had a similar experience last week. We had stopped a week or so before to pick up a Sienna brochure, and got a salesperson's card at that time. So we called and asked for an appointment just to test drive before we headed out. When we arrived he was busy with another customer, so we waited a while. Finally he handed us off to another salesperson, who found us an XLE with pkg #3 to drive, which is what we wanted, and thought would be hard to find. After making us wait while he washed it (we didn't care if it was dirty!) we drove the car and liked it, except for the fake wood trim that clashed with the grey interior, and the oddly functioning power hatch. It also appeared to be a demo, since there were lots of key scratches by the lock, and the salesperson had the trip odometer on. I didn't bother to punch the button and check the actual mileage. After the test drive we had been there nearly two hours, with our four year old son, and then they pulled out a sales contract and credit application! I know dealers do business this way, but we were annoyed. We thanked them and left. A little wiser, and with a less patient son, we emailed the Honda dealer's internet department the next day, requesting a test drive in an EXL. We also asked to see the car in several colors, and that the process take less than an hour. We told them we were not going to make a decision that day, but wouldn't mind being quoted a price. A salesperson emailed back promptly with a price quote and to set up the appointment, and when we arrived the next day the visit went exactly as we had requested. It was the most pleasant experience we have ever had at any car dealership.
While both the Sienna and the Odyssey are great vans and we could happily live with either one, we like the Odyssey a little better, and the pleasant dealership experience is also a big plus. We're currently negotiating price, and hope to be driving a new EXL soon.
My 2006 Sienna LE odometer showed 37.9 miles to my aunt's house while MapQuest showed 38.5 miles on the same route.
The Sienna showed 14.7 miles to the airport while my sons's Odyssey EX showed 15.6 miles. Both the Sienna and Odyssey odometers are inaccurate.
The Odyssey inaccuracy causes people to think the Odyssey is getting better gas mileage than it really is while the Sienna shows lower gas mileage than actual if miles travelled is divided by gasoline consumed.
IF I converted the 2300 miles travelled by my Sienna to Odyssey miles, the distance would be 2440 miles I would think my Sienna had an overall average of 28.0 MPG instead of the 26.1 MPG calculated using the lower distance recorded by the Sienna odometer.
I test drove both back to back along with my wife. The Sienna XLE seemed to have nicer furnishings, and more cargo space. The Odyssey EX-L however, seemed smoother. And as for cabin noise, the Sienna seems to 'rev' every time you press the pedal, and if you drive in the city a fair bit, that noise would seem intrusive. The handling was also much tighter. My wife does not drive quickly, but felt much more confident behind the wheel of the Odyssey. Hence, the choice for us was not so tough- Odyssey (but I pray we dont get a :lemon: )
With less than a mile's difference, I'd say the odometer is working properly. There are lots of places variation can occur (at least where I drive). Picking particular lanes means taking the inside or outside of curves, some people cut corners...it all adds up to room for error.
The Odyssey EX read 15.6 miles on the exact same course when I drove it and the Sienna LE read 14.7 miles when driven immediately after the Odyssey. The Odyssey read 6.12 % MORE distance which if I applied to the 26.1 MPG overall average of the Sienna would mean my Sienna got 27.7 MPG using Odyssey distances. That is a VERY significant difference....and I would be even happier with 27.7 MPG overall average than the 26.1 MPG the Sienna has delivered.
The Sienna you test drove must have been an anomaly since neither the 2004 Sienna CE I test drove nor my own 2006 Sienna LE has that characteristic. Both Siennas have better acceleration than did the 2006 Odyssey EX-L-NAV that I took on a test drive. I almost bought a 2006 Odyssey EX and feel the Odyssey is a very good choice.
I can't help but feel the Odyssey you drove had some issues since the acceleration was noticeably slower in the Honda. Nearly everyone who drives them feels that they are about equal around town or the Honda a little more peppy off the line, with the nod going to Odyssey in peak power (i.e. punching it to pass).
It's not that it matters TOO much, since these are less hot rods, more familymobiles.
LOL, extrapolating odometer accuracy from one vehicle to an entire model line is... ridiculous.
In my own experience, I have repeatedly measured the mileage on a 119 mile trip with a half a dozen vehicles in the past five years. The readings have never varied by more than one mile either way (ranging from 118-120). And I pay very close attention since it is business mileage for which I'm reimbursed.
My list of accurate odometers:
'01 PT Cruiser, '99 VW New Beetle, '05 Honda Pilot, '05 Honda Odyssey, '02 Chevy Avalanche, and '03 Pontiac Bonneville.
Does this mean that the odometers in all of those models are accurate? Hardly - but mine have been.
How is it any more ridiculous than you "extrapolating" odometer accuracy from six vehilces to their entire model lines?
And why would you need to pay "close" attention to your mileage? Just reset your Trip A indicator to zero at beginning of trip...read what it says when you get back to where you started from. :sick:
Hey ole Yeller. Go to "Select a Topic" on the left and select car safty. There is a seperate 400 post discussion on stability control. I haven't seen adequate proof to say that VSC is as good as advertised...but others disagree.
I was driving my '06 Odyssey on a rainy day when I came to an intersection paved in brick. The bricks were as slippery as ice. As I made the right turn the rear end started to slide. Immediately the VSC light came on and the rear snapped back into place. Yes, VSC works as advertised. A leading consumer publication claims VSC is as important as front airbags. From a personal standpoint, I would not buy a vehicle unless it was so equipped.
Sometimes conditions change. If we ALL simply drove under what conditions allowed, there'd be no need for ABS, or FWD or any number of OTHER systems on a vehicle which help to maintain control.
I'm not sure why there would be an aversion to a system which helps the driver to maintain control of their vehicle?
Well,you know that and I know that. But, apparently artego didn't know that.
I have no aversion to VSC. I'm just saying that I've yet to seen significant proof that it works as advertised. And that 99.9% of drivers could manage quite well without it if they paid more attention to their speed and road conditions.
99% of drivers THINK they pay sufficient attention to speed and road conditions, which is the problem, because maybe 30% actually do. I'd rather have more cars on the road that make keeping control of a car in an emergency maneuver is easier (with VSA).
People can get overconfident with VSC, much like many SUV drivers who find themselves upside down in a ditch. I think people who don't pay attention end up in accidents reguardless of the safty features on their vehilce.
I'd rather be driving opposite a cautious/safe driver without VSC, than one chomping on a corndog and talking on a cell phone, with VSC.
Out of all the VSC encounters I have read on the various boards on Edmunds...over 95% have "avoided" accidents while driving to fast for road conditions, or driving carelessly. I rarely read of the refrigerator falling out the back of a U-haul and the driver having to swere to miss it. But, I guess there's always that possiblity.
The encounter you have posted about(car coming around a corner and in your lane with you nowhere to go but up against the guardrail)is likely one where VSC would have come in handy. My concern is to much focus on safty features, and not enough on driver responsibiltiy.
Good analogy with SUV drivers. I agree 100 % that DRIVER RESPONSIBILITY should have more focus. Some large insurance companies no longer give discounts for ABS equipped vehicles. How long before they no longer consider VSC, curtain air bags, etc. important? Too many people rely on technology to help them instead of using responsible, defensive driving techniques.
HORRORS !! My 2006 Sienna LE does NOT have the optional VSC. Now I will have to drive less aggressively and not be able to feel the full effect of the VVT-i engine and 5 speed AT. Fortunately, it has Advanced Airbags, Front Seat Side Airbags and Curtain Shield Airbags in all 3 rows and side impact door beams.
can someone tell me how to avoid skidding on black ice? Especially when you are entering or exiting a highway ramp? How about 3 to 4 inches of fresh snow on top of ice on your way home from work?
Sure, I drove cars for many years in the snow without vsc and abs, but every time I skid, even though I can correct it, it was a terrifying experience. It has nothing to do how fast or slow you are going. Just ask anyone who lives in the NE.
Study done in '04 by the NHTSA. It compared single-vehicle crash data between models equipped with Stability Control and the exact same vehicle models from a previous year without Stability Control. When the study was done, the vehicles examined were:
Passenger cars: Benzes and BMW's (61%), upper-end GM cars (Buick Park Avenues, some Cadillacs, Olds Aurora, Pontiac Bonnevilles, Corvette) and various other makes.
SUV's: Benz ML Suv's and G-wagon, Toyota 4-runner's, Landcruisers, Lexus RX300 and LX470.
The results of the study: Passenger cars showed a 35% reduction in single-vehicle crashes and a 30% reduction in fatalities from single-vehicle crashes. SUV's showed a 67% reduction in single-vehicle crashes and a 63% reduction in fatalities from single-vehicle crashes.
Is this proof? Maybe not. But I don't think you can discount these kind of numbers.
This one indicates a reduction in fatalities in single-vehicle crashes by 56% and a reduction in the number of accidents by around 40%. These AREN'T theorectical projections: these are based on comparing actual crash data for vehicles equipped with Stability Control vs. the same models from previous years which were not equipped with Stability Control.
Here's an old one which refers to studies done in Japan and Europe:
These studies indicate a reduction of "only" around 30% for single vehicle crashes. There was also this interesting little tidbit in there:
"Those kinds of results could prevent as many as 6,000 of the nearly 43,000 crash-related deaths each year in the U.S. -- dramatically more than air bags, which have saved about 800 lives annually since 1987, according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA)."
Hmmmmm. Saving around 6,000 lives a year rather than the 800 saved by airbags.
NHTSA will feel more confident about the overall effectiveness of ESA when we have enough data on a more representative cross-section of the fleet including non-luxury vehilces and a wider variety of manufacturers. That is likely to take at least another year or two.
I concur with NHTSA that more data is needed. 35% and 67% reductions in single vehilce accidents is a bold number to be throwing out there.
The kind of study I would like to see would be professional drivers on a course set up to mirror real life driving conditions(rain, ice, snow, sharp turns). One driver has a Toyota Camry with VSC and the other has a Toyota Camry without VSC. Have them run the courses at higher incremental speeds...say 5mph...up till the point where they start to crash. Would be interested in seeing data from something like that.
but the utility / effectiveness of the technology is not demonstrated by examining the results of professional drivers using it.
along those lines, what the provided data might suggest is that a large number of people are driving beyond their capabilities and that of their vehicle for the given conditions.
in other words, for poor drivers it may be a major differentiating technology, but for drivers of higher skill, perhaps not as much, (or has been postulated), exactly the opposite.
what i'd like to see is the study of crashes because the technology failed. we aren't likely to see that one.
"The kind of study I would like to see would be professional drivers on a course set up to mirror real life driving conditions(rain, ice, snow, sharp turns)."
Which is what the various manufacturer's do with their own R&D to determine the effectiveness and/or to 'dial in' the software controlling the systems for each particular application.
Since the system is supposed to help those drivers who don't know how to properly react (or can't react instinctly) to adverse conditions, perhaps a BETTER study would be one involving NON-professional drivers. Perhaps requiring the drivers to be eating a breakfast sandwich while they attempt to negotiate a test course.
After all, there's a lot more distracted, inexperienced, braindead drivers out there than professionals.
O.K...simple. Get a control group for each of five seperate categories of driver. Drivers are prerated from 1(novice or low skilled driver) up to 5(highly skilled).
Comments
Keep in mind, that 2001 EX you speak of had(has) only 210 horsepower, not the 240 hp of the 2002-2004 models, or 245ish (is it 244, I forget?) of the latest one. It still had more punch when downshifting (it was a 4-speed Auto at that time, too, just like ours) and getting into the 3,500-4,500 RPM range and passing than the one DCX van I've driven - a 1999 Grand Voyager Sport. It was fairly new though, so I didn't push it hard so it could be broken in easily.
With a full load of passengers on hilly roads, it may be all the more noticable.
# 29 more horsepower (244 vs 215).
# 18 more ft/lbs of torque (240 vs 222).
# Passenger Front-Impact Airbag on/off switch standard, versus not available.
# Electronic Climate Control standard, versus not available.
# Rear AC standard, versus not available.
Those info can be taken from carcostcanada. For those of you who would like to compare cars, the infos you'll find there could be useful but may not necessarily be the only reason to buy.
The example above has almost identical price. You can also compare them side to side if you want.
So, now we are in a quandary. Sienna or Odyssey? I am wondering how many of your new Sienna owners decided against the Odyssey for the noises or other problems? Thanks in advance for any help you can give us!
# 29 more horsepower (244 vs 215).
# 18 more ft/lbs of torque (240 vs 222).
# Passenger Front-Impact Airbag on/off switch standard, versus not available.
# Electronic Climate Control standard, versus not available.
# Rear AC standard, versus not available. "
The Sienna automatically shuts off the front airbags if there is less than 80 lbs in the seat. Much better than a switch that may be accidently left off. Maybe the Odyssey is automatic as well and the data is wrong on both counts.
Rear A/C is standard on all Siennas.
Electronic climate control is also available. It is probably standard depending on the definition of electronic.
I would not trust carcostdata too much for reliable info.
This horsepower thing is a non-issue. The Odyssey weighs more. A suburban has more hp than the Odyssey - does that make it faster? Is it really an advantage. The whole "it feels faster" is subjective. The quieter smoother riding vehicle will never "feel" as fast.
Try driving a Triumph Spitfire with the top down - it seems like a rocket, but is actually not very fast. Being low to the ground with lots of noise and a stiff ride makes it feel fast.
Both the Sienna and Odyssey have auto climate control on higher trim levels, but base models are manual.
The horsepower/torque issue does not really translate to performance gains except maybe in passing power. At moderate RPMs, the Odyssey not only "feels" faster, but is measured faster by Consumer Reports and Motor Trend. Still, only a half a second, so not a huge difference. Important or not depends on the driver, but I'm happy to have it when carrying the family and luggage on hilly roads. The braking and handling differences may be more noticable, IMO.
For those looking at 8-passenger Sienna (LE) and Odyssey (EX), I have a pretty exhaustive feature comparison posted at epinions and major Odyssey and Sienna Owner's Club forums. There are quite a number of minor differences not listed here.
Air conditioning front and rear, cruise control, and front rear disk brakes, and engine immobilizer standard.
Floor mats...standard.
The Sienna LE is comparable in content to the Odyssey EX (cloth) and normally sells for $ 2,000 to $ 2,500 LESS...which for many people, makes the Sienna LE - THE BEST DEAL.
Well, that obviously depends on how one defines "comparable".
TMV for an Ody EX (cloth) in my neck of the woods is a bit over $27k. To get a COMPARABLE Sienna LE, one would have to get one with pkg#4 and optional floormats (for the VSC and power driver's seat) with a TMV of about $26.3k.
So, yes the Sienna LE is less than the Ody EX. But comparable (IMO) versions are closer in price than the $2-2.5k delta you quoted.
Also, if you add floormats and a cargo net to the Sienna you need to add roof rack crossbars to the Odyssey;-)
Some features you'd get on the EX but not on the LE pkg 4: Rollover sensing side curtain airbags with sensors for all 3 rows, driver side power sliding door, lazy susan storage, 2nd row sunshades, auto climate control, anti-theft security system, speed sensitive wipers, cargo net, floor mats.
Some features you'd get on the LE8 Pkg 4 but not on the EX: DRLs, auto door locks, wiper de-icer, TPM, telescopic steering wheel, 3rd row tilt windows, compass/trip computer, MP3 capable CD changer, aux audio input jack, additional LATCH locations, roof rack crossbars.
Doesn't the Sienna have side curtain airbags as standard this year or is it just the rollover sensors you don't get on the Toyota?
Oh, and you forget the ever important SPOILER (standard on the Odyssey)...
What a difference! We walk in, expecting similar high pressure but I abruptly tell the guy we're just there to drive and are not ready to commit yet. He immediately walks to the back to get the keys and within minutes we have the van started up and are on the way. Our experience at this dealership was far far better, the salesman actually knows what he's doing and talking about, and their sales strategy is more "What can we do for you today?" as opposed to "Let me get all your information and introduce you to my manager." The Odyssey even in base trim is a very handsome and sharp van. Opening the door, first impressions are not good. The lower glove box is misaligned, the upper glovebox feels very cheap and flimsy and there are various other trim pieces in the interior that are flimsy and somewhat misaligned. These would not be an issue in another brand but they certainly don't reinforce the stellar engineering and quality reputation Honda has forged for itself. The materials in my parents' 99 model, while much harder and less appealing overall, were at least put together perfectly. Perhaps more troubling, these types of materials and finish would never pass standards at Toyota. The Siennas all had precisely assembled and reasonable feeling materials if a bit bland and boring to look at. The Odyssey cabin actually looked much cooler and more expensive but in actual quality there is a profound difference between the two vans.
This concludes anything negative I have to say about the Odyssey because the drive was absolutely fabulous. I kid you not, this thing drives no different than an Accord. It is so secure, stable, smooth, responsive, even a touch sporty. Honda has pulled off nothing less than an engineering miracle for making a 4,400 pound vehicle so benign and friendly and easy to drive. Further cementing our positive impressions, the powertrain is absolutely unlabored and unstrained, smoothly revving up into the heart of its powerband and the shifts happening with seamless and sweet precision. There was no hesitation, indecisiveness, or anything less than absolute and immediate power. And the best part? It's almost utterly silent with only a muted, high quality, satisfyingly sporty growl escaping under heavy throttle. What an amazing powertrain!
While the Odyssey's interior quality may not stand up to the Sienna's you can certainly tell where all the engineering and production money went. This thing pours itself down the road like an Acura. I actually had fun driving it! Of course I don't have anything to compare it to... I think we'll still go drive a Sienna but it has a lot of convincing to do given the subpar experience we had today. It seems the Sienna has more convenience features, though it lacks some of the nifty Odyssey features like middle row underfloor storage and truly easy to fold third row seats. Even though the Odyssey costs at least $1,000 more it has some features like stability control, four wheel disc brakes, and a multilink rear suspension (as opposed to torsion beam) which seems to make it a better value from an engineering perspective. Moving up to the LE model would improve the Sienna's level of standard equipment so perhaps it would be more evenly matched.
We will find out tomorrow!
My wife and I drove and thoroughly examined the Sienna CE and LE today at a different dealership, this time with no pushy salespeople and clean, perfectly functioning vehicles being readily available. We came to the conclusion that the Sienna, to our eyes, is a striking and handsome design (for a minivan). The 06 styling changes have really improved it in this regard and we really like it in almost every color, particularly white, the varying earth tones, and that insect green. The interior, again, while purely functional and boring, really leaped out at me as being tightly screwed together and finished to the usual Toyota standards. The van's ergonomics, dash, and trim are intelligently designed all around, maximizing occupant comfort, space, and visibility. We really loved the interior of the Sienna more than the Odyssey for its superior assembly quality (fewer squeaks and rattles over the long haul?) and the thoughtfulness of its designers in creating the definitive environment for a family on the go.
So on to the long awaited test drive! Let me start by saying we will not be buying the Sienna. It is no longer in consideration. Why, after all the positive comments above, and being loyal Toyota consumers, currently in possession of an 05 Highlander and having owned Camrys, Corollas, an Avalon, and even an old FJ in the past? The Sienna offers nowhere near the handling, steering feel, and suspension control that the Odyssey does. We were not being yahoos on the test drive and pushing the car in a way it was never meant to be driven. Indeed, this was a low speed drive at a city clip in stop and go traffic and on some curvy backroads at or below the posted speed limits. It is almost unsettling how much slop and play there is in the steering wheel and how much suspension movement occurs in just basic maneuvers. The road and wind noise isolation was more notable for its presence than the other way around, as our Highlander, with its more blocky shape, is somehow quieter. I could hear rushing wind and the sounds of cars in adjacent lanes much more so than in the Odyssey. At one point I was checking to make sure all windows were closed.
The engine, while certainly smooth and making all the right sounds, was noticeably laboring to move the big Sienna around, revving higher, longer, and more audibly than the Odyssey's powerplant in similar conditions and requiring far more throttle input. With the Odyssey it really was effortless to pull away from a stop, attain velocity, and maintain it, even up hills which were taken with a "what hill?" eagerness. Literally all I had to do was toe the throttle in the Odyssey and it all just seemed so efficient so it's baffling to me that people are getting such poor economy with the Honda. Maybe its short trips and a heavy throttle foot? I don't think the revs ever had to come up beyond 3k, and even then for just a second, to move briskly around in the Odyssey where the Sienna revs and revs and revs, albeit smoothly and queitly, though with noticeably more vibration than the Honda. If it tells you anything, our Highlander is as dog slow as vehicles come on the Americn market, with its 160hp 4cylinder engine (although getting the full 27mpg hwy and 22mpg in mixed driving), and my wife could not tell a perceptible difference betwen it and the Sienna's power delivery in spite of the 55 hp difference. To be honest with you, and pehaps hampered by the Sienna's considerable weight, the 3.3 liter feels no different than Toyota's legendary 3.0 liter V6 in our Avalon nearly ten years ago. In two words, it feels outdated and outgunned. I know many have argued that the HP and torque difference between the two is small on paper, that the Toyota engine produces more torque at lower rpm, and that the Odyssey weighs more, negating any power advantages. I am here to tell you that this is simply not the case, and a quick drive will verify it.
In conclusion, the Sienna, while offering a tangibly higher quality interior, better packaging and more usable space, a lower price, and presumably greater reliability, falls flat on its face where driving dynamics are concerned. Indeed it may actually be unsafe to be that disconnected from the road in an evasive manuever. What were Toyota suspension engineers benchmarking? Even the Daimler-Chrysler vans are far more connected to the road and more predictable in their reponses while retaining a comfortable ride. And finally, the powertrain, while certainly better than anything else in its class, does not match up to the Odyssey for sheer effortless grunt and smoothness. The test drive made our choice very easy. We will be looking at Odyssey's next week.
one comment about the Odyssey's power and driving dynamics: i find in our '03, when we've taken the seats out to move between houses, you know: lug furniture, boxes of books, tools, toys and even gardening and home improvement supplies... when it's well loaded, i appreciate it's abilities in these areas even more.
I test drove both the 2006 Sienna XLE and 2006 Odyssey LX. If you want a sportier ride, more horses and a better looking exterior, go with the Honda product. If you want a more comfortable and better looking interior, more cargo space and a quieter cabin, go with the Toyota. Make sure you get the traction control and four wheel discs, however.
Both are excellent products and it was a difficult decision. I have also been told that Toyota automobiles are engineered more logically than Honda which makes them easier to repair when the time comes.
My kids might have been the clincher. I had hoped to put all three in the second row of the Sienna. After a couple weeks of having all three in the back row of our Outback, I knew that wasn't going to work on a daily basis. The stowable PlusOne seat turned out to work nicer for our family.
Still, I'd be driving a Sienna today if I hadn't decided to splurge on an EX-L. Even after I got a great offer on the Odyssey that was supposed to arrive within 10 days, I would have still purchased the Sienna if they would have given me any firm delivery date within the next month. Even a convincing lie would have done it;-)
I have no regrets with the Odyssey. My only ongoing complaint is the road/tire nosie at highway speeds. I also would have been just as happy with the Sienna. You really can't go wrong with either one.
You may want to check out extra insulation for under the carpeting. It's been a few years, but I remember 3M had a product that was thin and rubbery, and you would install it under the carpeting, and it provides a good bit of extra sound insulation from noises from the engine chamber / wheel well / road surface. Makes most sense in the driver / front passenger area.
I am no auto engineer but this sounds like a bad thing to me. Modern transmissions are designed to handle their jobs pretty well.
I do know that for manual transmissions the following is my practice: when coming to a stop (anticipated), keep the car in the same gear until you get close to where the engine rpms would be close to lugging the engine, then put the transmission in neutral for the rest of the stop. Doing so (keeping it in a high gear, rather than down-shifting) uses very little engine braking, and hence less stress on the engine and transmission. It also saves gas (putting a car in neutral means that you have to use gas to spin it at its RPM, whereas when you slow, the fuel injection cuts most gas delivery, and the engine is spinning through the rolling of the wheels, and then through the transmission).
As for an automatic, the natural tendency of the automatics is to replicate this procedure until the "lugging" point, at which point the transmission will then shift itself to the next lowest gear. This shift is a fairly gentle transition (the gears are pretty close, and you are at low engine RPM), and hence there should be little wear on the transmission from these shifts. Shifting to neutral might eliminate these transitions, but you then have to do the transition from neutral to drive. When you shift into drive from neutral, feel the jolt. That transition is what may cause wear. That said, I don't think there is much wear if you are going from a complete stop into drive - that's what it's designed to do.
But the problem with shifting to neutral while stopping is that you might make a mistake and shift at the wrong time / wrong direction (reverse), and cause much more harm than you could possibly save in slowing to a stop in neutral.
So, I'd recommend against it - not much benefit, and a risk of a big harm. But then again, I'm no auto engineer ...
The Siennas have better noise insulation and interior materials than the Odysseys. On the other hand, the Oddysseys have the noise cancellation system. Examine the interior panels and you will see what I mean. Personally, I prefer the Sienna because of its soft ride and its Lexus enviant.
My sister and I bought our vans at the same time. We have and done similar driving condition. I bougth the 2000 Sienna and drove for 125,000 without any problem. My sister bought the 2000 Odyssey and drove for 115,000. She have change her timing belt twice and a new tranny.
One major factor that I will not buy an Odyssey is the fact that if the timing belt breaks, the valves will be crushed. This translate to an expensive engine repair. With the Sienna, you just replace the timing belt if it breaks. I don't mean to brag but I just want to give a lot of credit to Toyota. After 24 oil changes , 1 new batteries, a couple of transmission fluid flush and 1 coolant flush, my Sienna is still running like the first day I bought it. Also, I want to see how many milage I can get from my Sienna timing belt.
After the test drive we had been there nearly two hours, with our four year old son, and then they pulled out a sales contract and credit application! I know dealers do business this way, but we were annoyed. We thanked them and left.
A little wiser, and with a less patient son, we emailed the Honda dealer's internet department the next day, requesting a test drive in an EXL. We also asked to see the car in several colors, and that the process take less than an hour. We told them we were not going to make a decision that day, but wouldn't mind being quoted a price. A salesperson emailed back promptly with a price quote and to set up the appointment, and when we arrived the next day the visit went exactly as we had requested. It was the most pleasant experience we have ever had at any car dealership.
While both the Sienna and the Odyssey are great vans and we could happily live with either one, we like the Odyssey a little better, and the pleasant dealership experience is also a big plus. We're currently negotiating price, and hope to be driving a new EXL soon.
The Sienna showed 14.7 miles to the airport while my sons's Odyssey EX showed 15.6 miles. Both the Sienna and Odyssey odometers are inaccurate.
The Odyssey inaccuracy causes people to think the Odyssey is getting better gas mileage than it really is while the Sienna shows lower gas mileage than actual if miles travelled is divided by gasoline consumed.
IF I converted the 2300 miles travelled by my Sienna to Odyssey miles, the distance would be 2440 miles I would think my Sienna had an overall average of 28.0 MPG instead of the 26.1 MPG calculated using the lower distance recorded by the Sienna odometer.
The Odyssey read 6.12 % MORE distance which if I applied to the 26.1 MPG overall average of the Sienna would mean my Sienna got 27.7 MPG using Odyssey distances. That is a VERY significant difference....and I would be even happier with 27.7 MPG overall average than the 26.1 MPG the Sienna has delivered.
I almost bought a 2006 Odyssey EX and feel the Odyssey is a very good choice.
It's not that it matters TOO much, since these are less hot rods, more familymobiles.
In my own experience, I have repeatedly measured the mileage on a 119 mile trip with a half a dozen vehicles in the past five years. The readings have never varied by more than one mile either way (ranging from 118-120). And I pay very close attention since it is business mileage for which I'm reimbursed.
My list of accurate odometers:
'01 PT Cruiser, '99 VW New Beetle, '05 Honda Pilot, '05 Honda Odyssey, '02 Chevy Avalanche, and '03 Pontiac Bonneville.
Does this mean that the odometers in all of those models are accurate? Hardly - but mine have been.
Anyone mind to share? Thanks
And why would you need to pay "close" attention to your mileage? Just reset your Trip A indicator to zero at beginning of trip...read what it says when you get back to where you started from. :sick:
Oh please.
Sometimes conditions change. If we ALL simply drove under what conditions allowed, there'd be no need for ABS, or FWD or any number of OTHER systems on a vehicle which help to maintain control.
I'm not sure why there would be an aversion to a system which helps the driver to maintain control of their vehicle?
Well,you know that and I know that. But, apparently artego didn't know that.
I have no aversion to VSC. I'm just saying that I've yet to seen significant proof that it works as advertised. And that 99.9% of drivers could manage quite well without it if they paid more attention to their speed and road conditions.
I'd rather be driving opposite a cautious/safe driver without VSC, than one chomping on a corndog and talking on a cell phone, with VSC.
Out of all the VSC encounters I have read on the various boards on Edmunds...over 95% have "avoided" accidents while driving to fast for road conditions, or driving carelessly.
I rarely read of the refrigerator falling out the back of a U-haul and the driver having to swere to miss it. But, I guess there's always that possiblity.
The encounter you have posted about(car coming around a corner and in your lane with you nowhere to go but up against the guardrail)is likely one where VSC would have come in handy. My concern is to much focus on safty features, and not enough on driver responsibiltiy.
Some large insurance companies no longer give discounts for ABS equipped vehicles. How long before they no longer consider VSC, curtain air bags, etc. important?
Too many people rely on technology to help them instead of using responsible, defensive driving techniques.
HORRORS !! My 2006 Sienna LE does NOT have the optional VSC. Now I will have to drive less aggressively and not be able to feel the full effect of the VVT-i engine and 5 speed AT.
Fortunately, it has Advanced Airbags, Front Seat Side Airbags and Curtain Shield Airbags in all 3 rows and side impact door beams.
Sure, I drove cars for many years in the snow without vsc and abs, but every time I skid, even though I can correct it, it was a terrifying experience. It has nothing to do how fast or slow you are going. Just ask anyone who lives in the NE.
if i understand things correctly, if the vehicle's wheels cannot estabish firm contact with the road surface, VSC isn't going to help you.
I think what you are looking for is real-world evidence that it is actually EFFECTIVE.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/809790.html
Study done in '04 by the NHTSA. It compared single-vehicle crash data between models equipped with Stability Control and the exact same vehicle models from a previous year without Stability Control. When the study was done, the vehicles examined were:
Passenger cars: Benzes and BMW's (61%), upper-end GM cars (Buick Park Avenues, some Cadillacs, Olds Aurora, Pontiac Bonnevilles, Corvette) and various other makes.
SUV's: Benz ML Suv's and G-wagon, Toyota 4-runner's, Landcruisers, Lexus RX300 and LX470.
The results of the study: Passenger cars showed a 35% reduction in single-vehicle crashes and a 30% reduction in fatalities from single-vehicle crashes. SUV's showed a 67% reduction in single-vehicle crashes and a 63% reduction in fatalities from single-vehicle crashes.
Is this proof? Maybe not. But I don't think you can discount these kind of numbers.
Other sources?
http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4001.pdf
This one indicates a reduction in fatalities in single-vehicle crashes by 56% and a reduction in the number of accidents by around 40%. These AREN'T theorectical projections: these are based on comparing actual crash data for vehicles equipped with Stability Control vs. the same models from previous years which were not equipped with Stability Control.
Here's an old one which refers to studies done in Japan and Europe:
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/25/pf/autos/what_is_esc/index.htm
These studies indicate a reduction of "only" around 30% for single vehicle crashes. There was also this interesting little tidbit in there:
"Those kinds of results could prevent as many as 6,000 of the nearly 43,000 crash-related deaths each year in the U.S. -- dramatically more than air bags, which have saved about 800 lives annually since 1987, according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA)."
Hmmmmm. Saving around 6,000 lives a year rather than the 800 saved by airbags.
NHTSA will feel more confident about the overall effectiveness of ESA when we have enough data on a more representative cross-section of the fleet including non-luxury vehilces and a wider variety of manufacturers. That is likely to take at least another year or two.
I concur with NHTSA that more data is needed. 35% and 67% reductions in single vehilce accidents is a bold number to be throwing out there.
The kind of study I would like to see would be professional drivers on a course set up to mirror real life driving conditions(rain, ice, snow, sharp turns). One driver has a Toyota Camry with VSC and the other has a Toyota Camry without VSC. Have them run the courses at higher incremental speeds...say 5mph...up till the point where they start to crash. Would be interested in seeing data from something like that.
along those lines, what the provided data might suggest is that a large number of people are driving beyond their capabilities and that of their vehicle for the given conditions.
in other words, for poor drivers it may be a major differentiating technology, but for drivers of higher skill, perhaps not as much, (or has been postulated), exactly the opposite.
what i'd like to see is the study of crashes because the technology failed. we aren't likely to see that one.
Which is what the various manufacturer's do with their own R&D to determine the effectiveness and/or to 'dial in' the software controlling the systems for each particular application.
Since the system is supposed to help those drivers who don't know how to properly react (or can't react instinctly) to adverse conditions, perhaps a BETTER study would be one involving NON-professional drivers. Perhaps requiring the drivers to be eating a breakfast sandwich while they attempt to negotiate a test course.
After all, there's a lot more distracted, inexperienced, braindead drivers out there than professionals.