I test drove a newer Miata without the chrome rings and the funny thing is I missed them. The dash sort of looks naked without them.
My Sienna's windows are tinted from the factory (only the CE's aren't), too, so it's not like tons of light is there to create glare. Certainly not compared to a convertible with actual chrome colored rings.
Nice photos, but your Sienna photo was NOT taken during morning when you were driving South or West. Nor was it taken in the afternoon driving North when the low level of the sun reflects off the gauges.
I felt the Sienna instrument cluster was GORGEOUS when we first saw it in the dealer's enclosed, dimly lighted lot of new vehicles. I still think it is VERY attractive at night but is objectionable at certain times of the day as are the shiny surfaces on the middle of the dash.
BTW, our Sienna now has 18,404 miles on the odometer. The trip computer is LESS accurate when refills are weeks apart than it was on long trips.
Is it a bad sign for the Sienna that your Check Engine light is on?
Notice the RPM's are at zero??? ALL CARS do this when the ignition is powered on and the engine is off, so the check engine light, along with several others, does light up. It turns off once the engine is running. There's nothing wrong with ateixeira's car. Thanks for playing.
This video exemplifies what gotoyota is saying. In this case, it is in my car. You can hear me turn the key to each position. In the "ON" position, the lights come on, but the engine doesn't crank. You'll hear the seatbelt warning beep too.
Ok, maybe I need to go test drive an Ody to see what's so great about the steering. I've seen so many posts that mark down the Sienna for its "mushy" (so to speak) steering. I'm not so sure I understand that. Of course, I don't really care about sporty steering, either. I'm not too certain I'd know the difference..... Here's what I noticed today: as I was driving home on a relatively "hilly" stretch of road, I passed a Dodge or Chrysler (they basically look the same to me!). We were about even for a bit, but when we got to a hill, the Drysler couldn't keep up with the Sienna. It was as nimble as a little mountain goat going up the hill, and the poor little Drysler was left in the dust! I also love when these little sports cars pull up beside my mommymobile and think they're all that..... until I leave them wondering what happened! I don't do that all that often because I'm trying to reduce my jackrabbit starts , and 'cause I'd really like to end the year without a speeding ticket!
is because the "Drysler," unless it was a top level brand new 08, has a completely inferior, rather anemic 3.8 in it, OR, perhaps even worse (and more likely,) a craptacular 3.3 that gets it from 0-60 in "eventually."
It has nothing to do with the Steering. Further, having driven the previous generation DGC rather extensively and an '08 Sienna, I'd say that they are about even.
I don't know that you can ever really describe a minivan as "sporty," but it is hard to quantify why the Ody's steering is better...but you know it when you feel it. That's not a knock on Sienna. Its perfectly adequate. But the Ody just feels...right. The car goes exactly where you point it, crisply and precisely. It feels nimble, quick, and confident. The Sienna feels competent, but not nimble or quick.
Certainly, the Sienna powertrain is very nice, but a legtimate sporty car should be able to outrun it. The Sienna's 0-60 number is generally reported as 7.2 seconds, which is very good for a vehicle that size, but well off the pace of a V6 Camry, Accord or Altima.
I have never tried the 0-60 test, because I'm just not a racer, but I do like surprising some people in smaller "sportier" cars when I can keep up with them or go faster! I've never really had trouble with the Silver Shadow going where she's pointed, so I guess that's why I don't fully understand all the hype behind the Ody's "crisper" steering. Plus, I knew full well what I was getting when I got my ride; I was not looking for a sports car. I was coming from a VW Passat that was too low for the back problems I have, I knew I would be carrying around an infant, so I knew a van would be a better fit for me. I like 'em better anyway. I'm just weird that way! I know pretty much what to expect from the Silver Shadow, 'cause I've had one before. The only thing that really surprised me a little was my '07 seems a noiser than the '00 I drove. That's a small price to pay, I figure, other than the high payments I've got! :P
The thing is, the Sienna can go the direction it is pointed generally well. It just does so with a lot more floatiness (which gives you a better ride) and a lot less steering feel (which makes it feel more trucklike and less carlike).
You bought a van and wanted something a lot softer it sounds like (nothing wrong with that at ALL). For those wanting car-like handling/ride but van utility, the Odyssey is the better candidate.
The Odyssey is no sports sedan, as it rides better/softer than my Accord and has less steering feel than my Accord (probably due largely in part to greater weight, softer spring rates, and taller-compound tires). The Accord is family car so it doesn't ride overly sporty, and the Odyssey is softer in comparison to THAT.
To reiterate, the Odyssey is a great compromise of carlike handling and van utility. The Sienna is a smooth vehicle that puts soft-ride and comfort above pesky things like steering feel and having a suspension settle in one bob after going over a dip in the road instead of three bobs up and down (personal experience with the two vans).
My two cents for whoever gives a ______... I feel I am uniquely qualified to give such opinions, since I am the only one in here who has both an Ody and a Sienna (not by choice though... someone please buy it!). Whenever I drive the Ody now, as I just did this evening, I gain a new appreciation for its positive steering feel and brakes. It isn't that the Sienna steering is bad, it's really just fine - it goes where you point it, but it feels like a remote control and doesn't give much of a sense of one-ness with the car. In the Ody, it feels like a direct link between you and the machine. The Odyssey also has a quicker turning ratio, so it feels more responsive. As far as floatiness, I don't think the Sienna ever bobs over bumps. It's not like the suspension is THAT soft, it actually has a slight firmness over the road (I have the 17 inch wheels, don't know if the 16's are different), but it is softer and less jiggly than the Odyssey. The main appreciable difference between the two is in the fact that the Sienna leans more in turns. You don't notice it so much during routine turns, but on a switchback, you definately realize it is less playful than the Odyssey. It's somewhat akin to riding your living room couch through the "esses" whereas the Honda is more akin to riding a motorcycle on four wheels. As for the powertrain (since the rest of you are talking about it) Sienna kicks the Ody in the lugnuts and never looks back. It beats the new 4.0L/6spd Chryslers to 60 by a full second, and the Honda by 1.5sec. Anyone who says it's not noticeable must be driving at 3/10ths all the time. You might not feel a big difference in normal driving, but when you need or want to use the power, the Toyota delivers. There's a pretty noticeable difference in off the line acceleration, where the Sienna simply leaves the Odyssey in it's wake and it seems that no matter what the speed, the Sienna just pushes you back in your seat. In contrast, it's easy to catch the Ody 3.5L Vtec sleeping if you hit the gas when you're rolling and the downshift puts you in the 2500-3500 rpm range, which is well below the sweet spot. The Sienna's sweet spot is all over the place - the gearing seems better matched to utilize the abundant power, as well. I think the Ody would do better with slightly shorter ratios, without giving up the tall overdrive gear of course. As for brakes, I can't even say I like them in the Sienna. Car and Driver referred to them as "wooden" and I completely agree. I don't think there is anything good I can say about them, other than they do stop the van like they are supposed to... but they feel mushy, and I have to push much harder than I do in our Ody. I like the Ody's brakes much better. Toyota should fix that, it just feels weird. And for hansienna, I did notice a glare today from the "shiny circles", but it wasn't as bad as the glare from the JBL badge on the center channel above the radio/nav unit. It wasn't that bad though, and I probably wouldn't have noticed if I'd remembered my sunglasses :shades:
The purpose of that photo was just to show that there aren't any chrome rings around the Sienna's dash. It is a black surround that happens to be glossy. Compared to that Miata it is NOTHING, and that's not just my opinion, compare the two for yourself, the pictures are right in front of yours eyes.
I just feel like hansienna makes a HUGE deal over something that doesn't bother anyone else. Have you heard even one single other Sienna owners complain about that?
No? Didn't think so.
On to the next topic, please.
Steering.
I was attacked by a few folks when I commented that the Ody's steering was too light and overboosted. This right after a test drive. And you feel torque steer through that column, too.
I guess I could revise my comment and say that the Ody's steering is "less bad" than the norm for minivans, but c'mon folks, it is still very light and overboosted. Go drive a Miata without power steering, or a Lancer EVO. Now that's how steering should feel.
Ody's steering is good for a van. In the overall scheme of things, I still think it's way too light.
Ody's steering is good for a van. In the overall scheme of things, I still think it's way too light.
Well, that's important, seeing as it IS a van.
I don't see most van drivers wanting a no-power-steering experience like the Miata or an Evo. They want more isolation, better ride, etc...
I'm not lambasting you or anything, but just consider a van's target audience. Families. Taxis. Cargo-carriers. Travelers. Racing/Driving enthusiasts? Not usually.
The Odyssey has steering VERY similar to my Accords'. Both those are nicely weighted, and while they have more feel and shorter ratios, they are known for being good handlers. I'd have to agree. If you want an 8-passenger vehicle to drive like a Miata, well, I think you'll have to buy 4 Miatas.
my '03 ody and my '02 accord drive very similarly. if you are familiar and satisfied with one, you are familiar and satisfied with the other. that's what you can expect to get with a honda.
i grew up driving volkswagens (sciracco, rabbit, jetta), mazda 323, and a few accords, and so the selection of an ody based on steering, handling, road-feedback, noise level etc for my wife and i were a no-brainer.
crazy me, i'm one of those persons that believe a certain amount of road and engine noise is actually good for situational awareness. i've been in some extremely quiet automobiles and didn't like the disconnected experience one bit.
let's not compare the van to small sports cars. i've driven a porche carrara 4 and an accord and ody are not claimed to be anything like that as far as handling and feedback. i'm sure the miata was a fun vehicle to drive; the dynamics of it vs. just about anything isn't likely to be comparable.
overboosted steering? if you think so, but i highly disagree with your assessment.
perhaps the vehicle you test drove had tires which were over-inflated (it happens) or there was another issue.
in general, i don't believe the accords and odys are known for overboosted steering. as a matter of fact to the contrary, one thing i believe is that they do a quite competent job of managing steering forces and feedback from zero to rated speed. i would rate the steering of the ODY and accord as excellent myself.
if the ODY's steering was good but light, how would you honestly qualify the sienna's?
I don't doubt the over-inflated tire theory, in fact I've had cars delivered with over 40psi in them.
I had a rental Accord just last month and that steering felt a bit overboosted to me, too. Not just compared to my Miata, but also compared to our Subarus (Forester, Legacy).
It's OK, yes it is a van, but some people on Odyclub crack me up and talk about it as if it were a sports car. That place is hilarious.
Of course there are a few on SiennaClub.org that are the same way (not as many, though).
And no, the Sienna has no more steering feel. I don't think it's any lighter, but it's even more isolated.
I accept that, that's fine, but I'm not going around bragging about it, is all.
Hard to believe that nobody has posted here for two months. I guess it's my turn.
I am getting ready to replace my 2000 Ody EX, 120K miles, with something new. The Ody is still running great (cross my fingers, knock on wood, etc.) and has worked very well, with only one or two minor repairs. I could keep it longer, but I also don't have to feel guilty about replacing it.
Buying a new car should be fun, right? Well it's not quite working out that way for me. I guess the main issue is that every car purchase I made so far more than doubled the expense of the previous purchase. My first car was a used Dodge station wagon that cost $1,300. The second car a new Mazda GLC for $5,500. The third car a Honda Civic Hatchback SI for $13,000. The fourth, the Ody for $30,000. Every car I bought in the past was a significant upgrade over the previous one. This time, no such luck. If I wanted to continue the trend I should buy something like a Toyota Land Cruiser for $60-70K. But this idea has two insurmountable problems. One, I am reluctant to put myself into this class of conspicuous consumption. Two, it's an SUV. I am sorry to say that SUVs are a major reason why one should consider renouncing US citizenship. They are such a waste! Excluding the 0.5% of SUV owners who actually need one, all others are getting a heavy vehicle with a high center of gravity, poor handling, and not that much room, just for looks. This preference skews the market so profoundly that there is about one minivan choice for every twenty SUV choices. No wonder that choosing a minivan is so difficult. There aren't enough choices, so the compromises are more painful.
Which brings me to the Ody and the Sienna (and the new contender, the Chrysler, if I ever get to see one before it's sold). There is only one thing I didn't like in my 2000 Ody. It could be quieter. It's not horrible, but I have driven in much quieter sedans, particularly Toyotas. And, to me, noise makes a difference. Enough of a difference that I will sacrifice handling for quietness. If the Sienna were substantially quieter, I would get a Sienna and be done. But is it? I cannot tell. Reviews from both consumers and experts vary. There seems to be no simple objective way of measuring it. I have driven both cars and the noise levels seem similar, but I have the feeling that I'd need to drive them a lot longer to be able to tell.
This is true for many other aspects of these vehicles, such as seating comfort. The front seats in the Ody seem somewhat better than in the Sienna. The second-row seats in the Sienna are uncomfortably low, so the Ody wins this one. The third row seats are equally bad.
The consensus is that the Sienna drive train is noticeably better, and I have to agree on this one. In addition, I am not so sure I like the variable cylinder management stuff. I have driven a 2006 Ody EX-L and noticed that in the final gear the engine RPM was about 15-20% higher than in my 2000 Ody. This may be different in the 2008 since it has an additional 4-cylinder mode, but it's another piece of information that's hard to obtain. I like the relaxed feel of low RPM at high speed, not to mention the lower engine noise. I find it amazing that in spite of the VCM and the lower max power in the Ody, fuel consumption is about the same as the Sienna.
Handling is a no-brainer. The Ody's handling is undoubtedly superior by a good margin. The question for me is different: how much does it matter? My guess is not that much.
Looks. They are both ugly, but the Sienna is uglier. Certain viewpoints reduce the ugliness, and the Ody has more of those. For instance, the front view of the Ody is pleasantly aggressive, while the Sienna's is bland, with no character or redeeming features. Also the stance: the Sienna floats unnaturally high on its wheels, whereas the Ody is solidly squat. Looks wouldn't matter so much if it weren't that we have to look at our cars so often.
Options. This is where it gets messy. Why isn't the Sienna offering a removable 8th seat like the Ody? I really like this feature! Not just for the extra passenger, but also to be able to put three children together closer to the front seats---and perhaps fold the back seat for cargo. But then, why doesn't the Ody offer laser cruise control? I really like the idea! I've never used it and don't know if it's any good, but how can one not like a feature with the word "laser" in it?
I could care less about DVD and navigation. Almost all my DVDs are region 2 and they won't play on either car. (And don't tell me I can rip the DVDs and burn them back on a region-free disk---babysitting DVD-burning is way too much hassle.) Getting ANY nav system in a car is a waste since it starts out as an inferior product, compared to the market offerings, and it quickly gets further behind. The sad thing is that I'll probably end up getting both anyway so I can have some of the additional features that don't come separately.
There are other differences of course, and if I could only remember which trim level of which car offers what, I'd be able to complain a lot more about what combination of features I really want but cannot get. As it is, I have to stop here. Maybe I'll keep my 2000 Ody for another couple of years and hope that things improve. But I doubt they will.
The Ody is noiser, particularly in the back row, and thumps horribly over road cracks. The Sienna is considerably quieter - also uglier as you say, but a bit cheaper. Couple of thousand cheaper, at least used. Something about Honda's cult following, makes the Ody more popular. Inside, I prefer the Sienna.
You are also right, that Minivans are the ultimate people and stuff movers, for the best economy and versatility. SUVs are often not required, unless you have traction issues and need 4WD, you're wasting gas, really. However, this IS America, and choice is what makes us who we all are.....
I push Minivans for families - but there are the soccer Moms who just HAVE to have Suburbans.....which never see any action worse than speed bumps at the supermarket......
I'm wondering just how high gas has to get before Burbs are abandoned by all but the Sierra Club - who strangely, seem to require that every member has one..... :confuse:
Nvbanker, thanks for the reply. If I may ask, how do you know that the Sienna is considerably quieter? In my test of a 2006 Ody I drove over cracks and bumps and it didn't seem bad. But then of course I wasn't driving from the third row. I do that only in my nightmares. Either that, or drive at 50mph in reverse and with brakes that don't quite work, until the street becomes so narrow that I have to get off, fold the car, and carry it under my arm.
You're right about the Sierra Club. I had to give up my membership when they realized the Ody doesn't have AWD.
When we were checking out the 07 Sienna and 07 Odyssey we'd get on the highway and I'd sit in the third row and talk to my wife in the first row. We didn't notice too much difference between the two. That being said, I will say road noise on cement pavement is my biggest gripe with the Odyssey. Maybe it's just the OEM tires, but they can howl on certain surfaces. I love everything else about the van.
Try an 8 seat model, we own one. The center seat is actually big enough for adults, and it is removeable. The catch is you can only get it with the CE or LE trim lines.
Still, a loaded up LE is well equipped, lacking only leather and GPS. You could get Katskins leather aftermarket and just use a nice Garmin Nuvi.
Honda had great incentives on left over 2007s so that is the bargain right now.
The Honda did handle better, but Toyota had a better, more isolated ride. Fair trade.
I sampled the Toyota 3.5l V6 and it was Game Over. :shades:
The cool thing is you could move the center console to the middle row, so the kids would have storage in back. Then you can add either a 2nd console or the folding tray.
If your interior is gray and you're willing to trade with me, I have a folding tray and would prefer the console, so I'd swap with you.
We never use the walk-through. Our kids are bigger, I guess.
OE prices are expensive. The console is $529 retail. The folding tray is probably less, but I can't imagine it's cheap, probably $300+. Ridiculous for both.
I'm in the DC area, so if you're near DC/MD/VA I'd even figure out how to remove and replace both, and take care of all the labor.
We're still in a toss-up between the Sienna and the Odyssey. We're looking for a model with regular upholstry seats and a non-electric seat adjuster. (My husband dislikes the automatic ones... "just one more thing that can break".)
At the Chicago auto show this year, we sat in both in the back row and noticed the Toyota has a much lower leg level. Even I, at only 5'5", ended up with my knees way up when I sat in the back seat. He's 6'1", so it was even worse for him. But I've been hearing bad things about Odyssey reliability. With money also an issue, we can't afford to have things breaking down.
We have two convertible car seats right now in a 1999 Saturn SW2 and there's no room for us to go overnight anywhere because of the stuff we'd have to bring... including an IV pole for our older son. (Long story - HLHS heart defect) We hope/expect to be needing a third car seat in 2009, but hopefully our oldest will be into only a booster seat by then. Has anyone put three car seats in either of these vehicles? If so, what was your opinion? Anyone ever fit an IV pole in either of these cars with the back seat still up?
All of these questions will affect our decisions. Thanks!
But I've been hearing bad things about Odyssey reliability. With money also an issue, we can't afford to have things breaking down.
The Odyssey being on year number 4 should have the bugs worked out by now. Consumer Reports recommends the Odyssey.
With a 5 year/60,000 mile powertrain warranty, if something did decide to break down, it'd be covered for quite awhile.
We had a 2000 Odyssey EX that we loved, and my aunt has a 2005 Odyssey EX as well. Other than a whistle coming from the windshield at 50 MPH (that she hasn't taken to get fixed, she says she doesn't pay attention to it), she's got no issues; it's rattle free and drives beautifully, delivering 24 MPG at 80+ mph loaded with gear when moving my parents across the country. At lower speeds, mileage would be closer to 26-27 MPG.
We've got a 5, 3, 1 year olds in our Oddysey. We put the two youngest in the middle row and the oldest in back. For now we've taken out the middle second row seat which gives us easy access to the back. Works great and we're amazed at how much stuff the you can squeeze into the van.
The Toyota and Honda are both good choices. Like any other brand they both have had their mechanical issues, but overall reliability is good and both are recommended buys by most review services. If you're really worried about reliability you can buy an extended warrantee package which will cover you.
When we were looking we looked at all the makes and it came down to Honda and Toyota and we just like the way the Honda drove better. If I were looking today, I'd give the new Chryslers a good look too. They've generally caught up with Honda and Toyota in most features and they've got superior warantees in place right now.
In my research, I found that the odyssey seatback was very hard. sienna's was quite comfy/soft in comparison. that pretty much overrides any other advantage odyssey had if it did.
To some a softer seatback doesn't offer long-trip support. The seats in my Accord are really firm (and fairly similar to the Odyssey), but after 12 hours straight, I had no pain (Birmingham, AL to Oklahoma City, OK), just stiffness in my legs from sitting still so long. Firm doesn't always equal uncomfortable, and soft doesn't always mean comfortable, and vice versa. Different seating will fit different bodies differently.
The best advice is to drive all the options and rule out which you don't find comfortable.
Yeah I agree seat comfort is pretty subjective. I just took a 13 hour trip with my Honda and felt great after the trip. The seat seems to fit my 6' 1" back like a glove. Different strokes for different folks however.
In March, I test-drove 3 different minivans on the same day over the same roads. (around town only) They were the following models: Honda EX, Toyota Sienna LE(8 passenger), and Dodge Grand Caravan SXT with Package 25L. Here are the results, as I see them, at least.
Dodge GC SXT--It was the noisiest of the 3, at least around town. The auto writers say it's now the quietest minivan, and that might be true on the highway, but not around town. I could only drive these around town in the suburbs. The engine seemed noisier, the powertrain was not refined, and the suspension made more noise on bigger bumps. The cheap feel of the drivers door when closing was disappointing.
Toyota Sienna LE 8 passenger--It had the smoothest ride of the 3. It wasn't particularly quiet, but quieter than the Dodge. The engine was a little noisey, but not as bad as the Dodge. Windnoise was quite noticeable when going into headwinds. It was the most powerful of the 3. One of the 2 Siennas I test-drove developed a new rattle in the back, halfway through my test drive, which did not sit well with me. And I was not impressed by the feel of the driver's door when slamming it closed.
Honda Odyssey EX--The best part was the powertrain. The engine was extremely quiet, as was the exhaust. There was virtually no vibration. At idle, it felt like the engine wasn't even running. But on the other side, it had the stiffest ride, but thanks to independent suspension in the rear, the biggest bumps didn't seem to kick through as much as my '05 Chrysler T & C. It has, I think, slightly less windnoise than the Sienna, but it's noticable. On smooth roads, the car is quiet, but on coarse roads, it is noisey, but I think it's not quite as bad as my Chrysler. If you look at the van comparison test in the Nov. 2007 issue of Car and Driver magazine, at 70 mph, the Odyssey is only 1 decibel louder than the Sienna, and that small difference is usually imperceptible. I noticed a few muffled rattles in the rear. The feel and sound of the driver's door when slamming it was good(better than the other 2), but I've seen better.
As for me, I agonized for over a week on which van to buy. It came down to a virtual 50/50 tie between the Sienna and the Odyssey. I decided to go for the Odyssey. (but I would've been pretty happy with a Sienna too) I liked the Sienna's 8 passenger, 2nd row configuration better, and I like the Sienna's more potent engine, and smoother ride. But the Odyssey just seemed more refined, and I was most impressed by the super smooth, quiet powertrain. I got the EX-L ($3K more) with the variable cylinder management system which gets 2 mpg better on the highway and 1 mpg better around town, according to the EPA ratings.
Congratulations on your purchase. We tested the same vehicles in the fall of 06 and came to the same conclusions however the Toyota didn't yet have the 3.5 engine at that point.
My only complaint with my Honda is road noise on cement pavement. It can get pretty loud. I'm hoping part of it may be the OEM tires and when they wear out a different set will make a difference. We probably only notice it 5% of the time total and all the other great things about the Honda more then compensate for that one issue. It's a great minivan!
odyssey pluses - 1. Extra seat. 2. Middle row tray. 3. Front tray folds - letting pass-thru to back.
- All three big pluses in my view.
Odyssey minuses (compared to sienna) - 1. Louder (slightly and more pronounced on freeway) 2. Interior feels darker, whther olive or gray leather - not pleasant. Unless you can get the beige leather. 3. Seats are harder, less comfortable. 4. Ground clearance less. Disadvantage ??? 5. Dash looks too plasticy - overall interior feels less luxurious.
Ride and drive for both were good generally, including u-turns tested on both.
Sienna wins out because it is more luxurious and comfortable overall.
I aqree with your comparisons on all counts. One thing you didn't do, was ride in the back. Had you done that, and if that were important to you, I think you would have found the resounding thumping road noise in the 3rd seat unacceptably loud in the Odyssey - it's the only real downside to the van. And the only reason I prefer the Sienna over the Odyssey.
odyssey pluses - 1. Extra seat. 2. Middle row tray. 3. Front tray folds - letting pass-thru to back.
I'm not sure I understand. The Sienna offers those things.
They have an 8 seat model in CE or LE trim. Perhaps you really wanted an XLE or Limited?
You can get a 2nd console for the middle row. Factory installed, or from the dealer. The OE front console fits in the middle row as well on all the 7 seat models.
Lastly, my center tray folds! 2007 Sienna LE 8 Passenger.
So my Sienna actually has 2 out of the 3 things you mention!
Heck, if I fold down the middle seat, there is a table between the 2 rear seats as well, so you might even call it 3 for 3! :shades:
So I had owned a Sienna XLE '05 which was a very good van. I leased it, and needed to lease another. Long story short, after looking at CUVs, realized a van was the way to go, and it really came down to only the Honda and Toyota. I started by looking at prices, and comparing apples to apples (Odyssey EX vs. Sienna LE w/package #2, alloys) the Sienna cost about $50 more/month to lease. Not sure why the difference. Last time I found the opposite.
Not really fair perhaps comparing an '08 to a '05. But the Sienna was still like new, only had 17k miles on it. It always seemed sluggish though, like it had a turbo in it. You step on the gas, and it would hesitate, and then you give it more gas and whoosh the turbos kick in. I have a lot of hills where I live, and this became more pronounced. Overall though, a nice ride, fairly isolated - you are aware you are driving a big van. Upon getting the Ody, I had to wait a couple of days, and borrowed the dealers rental unit, an older '04 Ody. While it was a choppier, harder ride (also had 50k miles on it) I was impressed how linear the power felt. It just seemed faster and handled better. My '08 is like that too but with the refinement now of the Sienna.
How is the performance now with the '08 Sienna? I know it has more HP than the Ody, hopefully it's more useful.
Time will tell whether I like the new Ody more. For the same payments as I had in '05, I have better safety now (Sienna had only dual airbags and no traction control on the base XLE), better power and handling, looks nicer (subjective) 8 passenger seating vs. 7 (my 6 year old thinks the small little middle seat is cool - who am I to argue, as long as I don't have to sit in it). Gained a few other features too, 6 disc cd player, better storage, floor mats. I lost the power rear hatch and the power passenger seat, not that big of a deal.
Both good vans though, but I'm liking the feel of the Ody better so far. If it's reliable (the Sienna had a couple of small issues, but nothing huge) I will have made the right choice.
The new engine in the Sienna is much more powerful than what you were used to! And you could've gotten a nicely equipped 8-seater LE with a lot of the things that you wanted (only the CEs and LEs are 8-seaters). Not only that, there are more safety features, including traction control, which if I'm not mistaken, are standard on all of the '08s, including the CE. I may be mistaken on that, however. You really can't beat the new engine in the Sienna. It has not let me down when I've needed the power.
The Ody's hp is 244, the Sienna now has what, 265 or something - not that much of a difference really. My '05 Sienna had 230 I think, so the new Ody isn't that much more, but it feels like it. And I don't think it's the engine so much as the transmission and engine weren't as linear as I had hoped. Fine, compared to most choices, but the Ody is better. As for the new Sienna, it is probably an improvement, but it doesn't really matter. Because the other thing that the Sienaa doesn't address is how it drives. It may be quicker in a straight line, but where I live that makes almost no difference. My top speed limit between my home and work is 45 mph. And there's a lot of hills. So agility is more important to me, and the Ody wins there, no contest. Read the Editor's review here, they said the exact same thing.
If you do a lot of highway cruising, the Sienna will be fine though. Both good choices in this respect. And yes, the '08 Siennas have all of the same safety features as the Ody. My point earlier is that my new Ody has some key safety features that my '05 Sienna did not, and yet 3 years later my lease payments are even the same, or slightly less - how cool is that?
I do think that Honda is more aggressive on the price issue at this moment. Dealers will sell the Ody for invoice, not sure about Sienna. Their leases were certainly more. That could change at any time I suppose. In '05 the reverse was true.
Both good vans, but comparing apples to apples, I liked the driving characteristics of the Ody and the prices on both '08s gave the advantage to Honda.
C&D had them tied for laterl grip (0.74 gs), even though the Sienna was handicapped with the smaller wheel and tire package. The Ody has better steering feel, but ultimately it does not hold the corner any better.
Their Sienna was a lot quicker (7.2s to 60mph compared to 8.6 or so). The 2GR engine is a gem, you have to try it to believe it. I got 34mpg driving from the Dulles air to my home. Some of my entire tanks have been over 30mpg. Even around town I get 22 or better.
Go test drive one, you'll agree. It's a lot quicker.
I do agree that right now the Honda has better incentives and better pricing. It would be a tough choice. Back in May 2007 the Sienna was actually a tad cheaper. An Ody EX was $26,883 when I priced one. Today they're under $25 grand. Huge difference! :surprise:
My '05 Sienna had 230 I think, so the new Ody isn't that much more, but it feels like it.
It's because the difference is larger than 230 to 244. The new SAE hp rating procedures lowered ratings for both vehicles for 2006. The engine power didn't physically change, but the number put on it did.
Your same 230hp engine was re-rated 215hp for 2006; the Odyssey's 255 was re-rated 244 for 2006. So the difference is 215 to 244, or 230 to 255, depending on what data you want to use.
Comments
My Sienna's windows are tinted from the factory (only the CE's aren't), too, so it's not like tons of light is there to create glare. Certainly not compared to a convertible with actual chrome colored rings.
You can barely tell. Look at the tachometer just above the 2000 rpm mark.
Here is a chrome one, much more noticeable. You see the ring all around, basically:
I felt the Sienna instrument cluster was GORGEOUS when we first saw it in the dealer's enclosed, dimly lighted lot of new vehicles. I still think it is VERY attractive at night but is objectionable at certain times of the day as are the shiny surfaces on the middle of the dash.
BTW, our Sienna now has 18,404 miles on the odometer.
Notice the RPM's are at zero??? ALL CARS do this when the ignition is powered on and the engine is off, so the check engine light, along with several others, does light up. It turns off once the engine is running. There's nothing wrong with ateixeira's car. Thanks for playing.
This video exemplifies what gotoyota is saying. In this case, it is in my car. You can hear me turn the key to each position. In the "ON" position, the lights come on, but the engine doesn't crank. You'll hear the seatbelt warning beep too.
It has nothing to do with the Steering. Further, having driven the previous generation DGC rather extensively and an '08 Sienna, I'd say that they are about even.
I don't know that you can ever really describe a minivan as "sporty," but it is hard to quantify why the Ody's steering is better...but you know it when you feel it. That's not a knock on Sienna. Its perfectly adequate. But the Ody just feels...right. The car goes exactly where you point it, crisply and precisely. It feels nimble, quick, and confident. The Sienna feels competent, but not nimble or quick.
Certainly, the Sienna powertrain is very nice, but a legtimate sporty car should be able to outrun it. The Sienna's 0-60 number is generally reported as 7.2 seconds, which is very good for a vehicle that size, but well off the pace of a V6 Camry, Accord or Altima.
You bought a van and wanted something a lot softer it sounds like (nothing wrong with that at ALL). For those wanting car-like handling/ride but van utility, the Odyssey is the better candidate.
The Odyssey is no sports sedan, as it rides better/softer than my Accord and has less steering feel than my Accord (probably due largely in part to greater weight, softer spring rates, and taller-compound tires). The Accord is family car so it doesn't ride overly sporty, and the Odyssey is softer in comparison to THAT.
To reiterate, the Odyssey is a great compromise of carlike handling and van utility. The Sienna is a smooth vehicle that puts soft-ride and comfort above pesky things like steering feel and having a suspension settle in one bob after going over a dip in the road instead of three bobs up and down (personal experience with the two vans).
Gotta give you credit for your persistence.
The purpose of that photo was just to show that there aren't any chrome rings around the Sienna's dash. It is a black surround that happens to be glossy. Compared to that Miata it is NOTHING, and that's not just my opinion, compare the two for yourself, the pictures are right in front of yours eyes.
I just feel like hansienna makes a HUGE deal over something that doesn't bother anyone else. Have you heard even one single other Sienna owners complain about that?
No? Didn't think so.
On to the next topic, please.
Steering.
I was attacked by a few folks when I commented that the Ody's steering was too light and overboosted. This right after a test drive. And you feel torque steer through that column, too.
I guess I could revise my comment and say that the Ody's steering is "less bad" than the norm for minivans, but c'mon folks, it is still very light and overboosted. Go drive a Miata without power steering, or a Lancer EVO. Now that's how steering should feel.
Ody's steering is good for a van. In the overall scheme of things, I still think it's way too light.
Well, that's important, seeing as it IS a van.
I don't see most van drivers wanting a no-power-steering experience like the Miata or an Evo. They want more isolation, better ride, etc...
I'm not lambasting you or anything, but just consider a van's target audience. Families. Taxis. Cargo-carriers. Travelers. Racing/Driving enthusiasts? Not usually.
The Odyssey has steering VERY similar to my Accords'. Both those are nicely weighted, and while they have more feel and shorter ratios, they are known for being good handlers. I'd have to agree. If you want an 8-passenger vehicle to drive like a Miata, well, I think you'll have to buy 4 Miatas.
i grew up driving volkswagens (sciracco, rabbit, jetta), mazda 323, and a few accords, and so the selection of an ody based on steering, handling, road-feedback, noise level etc for my wife and i were a no-brainer.
crazy me, i'm one of those persons that believe a certain amount of road and engine noise is actually good for situational awareness. i've been in some extremely quiet automobiles and didn't like the disconnected experience one bit.
let's not compare the van to small sports cars. i've driven a porche carrara 4 and an accord and ody are not claimed to be anything like that as far as handling and feedback. i'm sure the miata was a fun vehicle to drive; the dynamics of it vs. just about anything isn't likely to be comparable.
overboosted steering? if you think so, but i highly disagree with your assessment.
perhaps the vehicle you test drove had tires which were over-inflated (it happens) or there was another issue.
in general, i don't believe the accords and odys are known for overboosted steering. as a matter of fact to the contrary, one thing i believe is that they do a quite competent job of managing steering forces and feedback from zero to rated speed. i would rate the steering of the ODY and accord as excellent myself.
if the ODY's steering was good but light, how would you honestly qualify the sienna's?
I had a rental Accord just last month and that steering felt a bit overboosted to me, too. Not just compared to my Miata, but also compared to our Subarus (Forester, Legacy).
It's OK, yes it is a van, but some people on Odyclub crack me up and talk about it as if it were a sports car. That place is hilarious.
Of course there are a few on SiennaClub.org that are the same way (not as many, though).
And no, the Sienna has no more steering feel. I don't think it's any lighter, but it's even more isolated.
I accept that, that's fine, but I'm not going around bragging about it, is all.
I am getting ready to replace my 2000 Ody EX, 120K miles, with something new. The Ody is still running great (cross my fingers, knock on wood, etc.) and has worked very well, with only one or two minor repairs. I could keep it longer, but I also don't have to feel guilty about replacing it.
Buying a new car should be fun, right? Well it's not quite working out that way for me. I guess the main issue is that every car purchase I made so far more than doubled the expense of the previous purchase. My first car was a used Dodge station wagon that cost $1,300. The second car a new Mazda GLC for $5,500. The third car a Honda Civic Hatchback SI for $13,000. The fourth, the Ody for $30,000. Every car I bought in the past was a significant upgrade over the previous one. This time, no such luck. If I wanted to continue the trend I should buy something like a Toyota Land Cruiser for $60-70K. But this idea has two insurmountable problems. One, I am reluctant to put myself into this class of conspicuous consumption. Two, it's an SUV. I am sorry to say that SUVs are a major reason why one should consider renouncing US citizenship. They are such a waste! Excluding the 0.5% of SUV owners who actually need one, all others are getting a heavy vehicle with a high center of gravity, poor handling, and not that much room, just for looks. This preference skews the market so profoundly that there is about one minivan choice for every twenty SUV choices. No wonder that choosing a minivan is so difficult. There aren't enough choices, so the compromises are more painful.
Which brings me to the Ody and the Sienna (and the new contender, the Chrysler, if I ever get to see one before it's sold). There is only one thing I didn't like in my 2000 Ody. It could be quieter. It's not horrible, but I have driven in much quieter sedans, particularly Toyotas. And, to me, noise makes a difference. Enough of a difference that I will sacrifice handling for quietness. If the Sienna were substantially quieter, I would get a Sienna and be done. But is it? I cannot tell. Reviews from both consumers and experts vary. There seems to be no simple objective way of measuring it. I have driven both cars and the noise levels seem similar, but I have the feeling that I'd need to drive them a lot longer to be able to tell.
This is true for many other aspects of these vehicles, such as seating comfort. The front seats in the Ody seem somewhat better than in the Sienna. The second-row seats in the Sienna are uncomfortably low, so the Ody wins this one. The third row seats are equally bad.
The consensus is that the Sienna drive train is noticeably better, and I have to agree on this one. In addition, I am not so sure I like the variable cylinder management stuff. I have driven a 2006 Ody EX-L and noticed that in the final gear the engine RPM was about 15-20% higher than in my 2000 Ody. This may be different in the 2008 since it has an additional 4-cylinder mode, but it's another piece of information that's hard to obtain. I like the relaxed feel of low RPM at high speed, not to mention the lower engine noise. I find it amazing that in spite of the VCM and the lower max power in the Ody, fuel consumption is about the same as the Sienna.
Handling is a no-brainer. The Ody's handling is undoubtedly superior by a good margin. The question for me is different: how much does it matter? My guess is not that much.
Looks. They are both ugly, but the Sienna is uglier. Certain viewpoints reduce the ugliness, and the Ody has more of those. For instance, the front view of the Ody is pleasantly aggressive, while the Sienna's is bland, with no character or redeeming features. Also the stance: the Sienna floats unnaturally high on its wheels, whereas the Ody is solidly squat. Looks wouldn't matter so much if it weren't that we have to look at our cars so often.
Options. This is where it gets messy. Why isn't the Sienna offering a removable 8th seat like the Ody? I really like this feature! Not just for the extra passenger, but also to be able to put three children together closer to the front seats---and perhaps fold the back seat for cargo. But then, why doesn't the Ody offer laser cruise control? I really like the idea! I've never used it and don't know if it's any good, but how can one not like a feature with the word "laser" in it?
I could care less about DVD and navigation. Almost all my DVDs are region 2 and they won't play on either car. (And don't tell me I can rip the DVDs and burn them back on a region-free disk---babysitting DVD-burning is way too much hassle.) Getting ANY nav system in a car is a waste since it starts out as an inferior product, compared to the market offerings, and it quickly gets further behind. The sad thing is that I'll probably end up getting both anyway so I can have some of the additional features that don't come separately.
There are other differences of course, and if I could only remember which trim level of which car offers what, I'd be able to complain a lot more about what combination of features I really want but cannot get. As it is, I have to stop here. Maybe I'll keep my 2000 Ody for another couple of years and hope that things improve. But I doubt they will.
You are also right, that Minivans are the ultimate people and stuff movers, for the best economy and versatility. SUVs are often not required, unless you have traction issues and need 4WD, you're wasting gas, really. However, this IS America, and choice is what makes us who we all are.....
I push Minivans for families - but there are the soccer Moms who just HAVE to have Suburbans.....which never see any action worse than speed bumps at the supermarket......
I'm wondering just how high gas has to get before Burbs are abandoned by all but the Sierra Club - who strangely, seem to require that every member has one..... :confuse:
You're right about the Sierra Club. I had to give up my membership when they realized the Ody doesn't have AWD.
Still, a loaded up LE is well equipped, lacking only leather and GPS. You could get Katskins leather aftermarket and just use a nice Garmin Nuvi.
Honda had great incentives on left over 2007s so that is the bargain right now.
The Honda did handle better, but Toyota had a better, more isolated ride. Fair trade.
I sampled the Toyota 3.5l V6 and it was Game Over. :shades:
Check here for prices:
http://www.trdparts4u.com/
The cool thing is you could move the center console to the middle row, so the kids would have storage in back. Then you can add either a 2nd console or the folding tray.
If your interior is gray and you're willing to trade with me, I have a folding tray and would prefer the console, so I'd swap with you.
We never use the walk-through. Our kids are bigger, I guess.
OE prices are expensive. The console is $529 retail. The folding tray is probably less, but I can't imagine it's cheap, probably $300+. Ridiculous for both.
I'm in the DC area, so if you're near DC/MD/VA I'd even figure out how to remove and replace both, and take care of all the labor.
Let me know if you are interested. :shades:
At the Chicago auto show this year, we sat in both in the back row and noticed the Toyota has a much lower leg level. Even I, at only 5'5", ended up with my knees way up when I sat in the back seat. He's 6'1", so it was even worse for him. But I've been hearing bad things about Odyssey reliability. With money also an issue, we can't afford to have things breaking down.
We have two convertible car seats right now in a 1999 Saturn SW2 and there's no room for us to go overnight anywhere because of the stuff we'd have to bring... including an IV pole for our older son. (Long story - HLHS heart defect) We hope/expect to be needing a third car seat in 2009, but hopefully our oldest will be into only a booster seat by then. Has anyone put three car seats in either of these vehicles? If so, what was your opinion? Anyone ever fit an IV pole in either of these cars with the back seat still up?
All of these questions will affect our decisions. Thanks!
If you get manual seats (CE, base LE), you will probably give up the adjustability to some extent.
The Odyssey being on year number 4 should have the bugs worked out by now. Consumer Reports recommends the Odyssey.
With a 5 year/60,000 mile powertrain warranty, if something did decide to break down, it'd be covered for quite awhile.
We had a 2000 Odyssey EX that we loved, and my aunt has a 2005 Odyssey EX as well. Other than a whistle coming from the windshield at 50 MPH (that she hasn't taken to get fixed, she says she doesn't pay attention to it), she's got no issues; it's rattle free and drives beautifully, delivering 24 MPG at 80+ mph loaded with gear when moving my parents across the country. At lower speeds, mileage would be closer to 26-27 MPG.
The Toyota and Honda are both good choices. Like any other brand they both have had their mechanical issues, but overall reliability is good and both are recommended buys by most review services. If you're really worried about reliability you can buy an extended warrantee package which will cover you.
When we were looking we looked at all the makes and it came down to Honda and Toyota and we just like the way the Honda drove better. If I were looking today, I'd give the new Chryslers a good look too. They've generally caught up with Honda and Toyota in most features and they've got superior warantees in place right now.
Good luck on your purchase. Buy what you like.
I've seen quotes well under a grand for both of these for a 7/100 bumper to bumper with no deductible.
The best advice is to drive all the options and rule out which you don't find comfortable.
PS: I'm 6'5" 195lb, for the record.
Happy motoring.
TheGrad
To be honest I think the Sienna's seats are a bit flat, i.e. they could use more side support. The arm rests compensate.
The padding is just right - soft but not too soft. My bottom isn't numb after a long drive.
Dodge GC SXT--It was the noisiest of the 3, at least around town. The auto writers say it's now the quietest minivan, and that might be true on the highway, but not around town. I could only drive these around town in the suburbs. The engine seemed noisier, the powertrain was not refined, and the suspension made more noise on bigger bumps. The cheap feel of the drivers door when closing was disappointing.
Toyota Sienna LE 8 passenger--It had the smoothest ride of the 3. It wasn't particularly quiet, but quieter than the Dodge. The engine was a little noisey, but not as bad as the Dodge. Windnoise was quite noticeable when going into headwinds. It was the most powerful of the 3. One of the 2 Siennas I test-drove developed a new rattle in the back, halfway through my test drive, which did not sit well with me. And I was not impressed by the feel of the driver's door when slamming it closed.
Honda Odyssey EX--The best part was the powertrain. The engine was extremely quiet, as was the exhaust. There was virtually no vibration. At idle, it felt like the engine wasn't even running. But on the other side, it had the stiffest ride, but thanks to independent suspension in the rear, the biggest bumps didn't seem to kick through as much as my '05 Chrysler T & C. It has, I think, slightly less windnoise than the Sienna, but it's noticable. On smooth roads, the car is quiet, but on coarse roads, it is noisey, but I think it's not quite as bad as my Chrysler. If you look at the van comparison test in the Nov. 2007 issue of Car and Driver magazine, at 70 mph, the Odyssey is only 1 decibel louder than the Sienna, and that small difference is usually imperceptible. I noticed a few muffled rattles in the rear. The feel and sound of the driver's door when slamming it was good(better than the other 2), but I've seen better.
As for me, I agonized for over a week on which van to buy. It came down to a virtual 50/50 tie between the Sienna and the Odyssey. I decided to go for the Odyssey. (but I would've been pretty happy with a Sienna too) I liked the Sienna's 8 passenger, 2nd row configuration better, and I like the Sienna's more potent engine, and smoother ride. But the Odyssey just seemed more refined, and I was most impressed by the super smooth, quiet powertrain. I got the EX-L ($3K more) with the variable cylinder management system which gets 2 mpg better on the highway and 1 mpg better around town, according to the EPA ratings.
My only complaint with my Honda is road noise on cement pavement. It can get pretty loud. I'm hoping part of it may be the OEM tires and when they wear out a different set will make a difference. We probably only notice it 5% of the time total and all the other great things about the Honda more then compensate for that one issue. It's a great minivan!
Wonder what that rattle was. I had one in my Sienna, then traced it to a coin holder that I had in one of my cup holders. DOH! :surprise:
1. Extra seat.
2. Middle row tray.
3. Front tray folds - letting pass-thru to back.
- All three big pluses in my view.
Odyssey minuses (compared to sienna) -
1. Louder (slightly and more pronounced on freeway)
2. Interior feels darker, whther olive or gray leather - not pleasant. Unless you can get the beige leather.
3. Seats are harder, less comfortable.
4. Ground clearance less. Disadvantage ???
5. Dash looks too plasticy - overall interior feels less luxurious.
Ride and drive for both were good generally, including u-turns tested on both.
Sienna wins out because it is more luxurious and comfortable overall.
1. Extra seat.
2. Middle row tray.
3. Front tray folds - letting pass-thru to back.
I'm not sure I understand. The Sienna offers those things.
They have an 8 seat model in CE or LE trim. Perhaps you really wanted an XLE or Limited?
You can get a 2nd console for the middle row. Factory installed, or from the dealer. The OE front console fits in the middle row as well on all the 7 seat models.
Lastly, my center tray folds! 2007 Sienna LE 8 Passenger.
So my Sienna actually has 2 out of the 3 things you mention!
Heck, if I fold down the middle seat, there is a table between the 2 rear seats as well, so you might even call it 3 for 3! :shades:
Not really fair perhaps comparing an '08 to a '05. But the Sienna was still like new, only had 17k miles on it. It always seemed sluggish though, like it had a turbo in it. You step on the gas, and it would hesitate, and then you give it more gas and whoosh the turbos kick in. I have a lot of hills where I live, and this became more pronounced. Overall though, a nice ride, fairly isolated - you are aware you are driving a big van. Upon getting the Ody, I had to wait a couple of days, and borrowed the dealers rental unit, an older '04 Ody. While it was a choppier, harder ride (also had 50k miles on it) I was impressed how linear the power felt. It just seemed faster and handled better. My '08 is like that too but with the refinement now of the Sienna.
How is the performance now with the '08 Sienna? I know it has more HP than the Ody, hopefully it's more useful.
Time will tell whether I like the new Ody more. For the same payments as I had in '05, I have better safety now (Sienna had only dual airbags and no traction control on the base XLE), better power and handling, looks nicer (subjective) 8 passenger seating vs. 7 (my 6 year old thinks the small little middle seat is cool - who am I to argue, as long as I don't have to sit in it). Gained a few other features too, 6 disc cd player, better storage, floor mats. I lost the power rear hatch and the power passenger seat, not that big of a deal.
Both good vans though, but I'm liking the feel of the Ody better so far. If it's reliable (the Sienna had a couple of small issues, but nothing huge) I will have made the right choice.
Back in May of last year, the Sienna was the better value. Now Ody prices are lower. I say go for it.
The Ody's power is more than adequate, in fact you'll probably never miss the extra power of the Sienna unless you test drive one, so just don't!
Having said that, going from 215hp to 266hp makes a huge difference, believe me. This van is quick!
If you do a lot of highway cruising, the Sienna will be fine though. Both good choices in this respect. And yes, the '08 Siennas have all of the same safety features as the Ody. My point earlier is that my new Ody has some key safety features that my '05 Sienna did not, and yet 3 years later my lease payments are even the same, or slightly less - how cool is that?
I do think that Honda is more aggressive on the price issue at this moment. Dealers will sell the Ody for invoice, not sure about Sienna. Their leases were certainly more. That could change at any time I suppose. In '05 the reverse was true.
Both good vans, but comparing apples to apples, I liked the driving characteristics of the Ody and the prices on both '08s gave the advantage to Honda.
Their Sienna was a lot quicker (7.2s to 60mph compared to 8.6 or so). The 2GR engine is a gem, you have to try it to believe it. I got 34mpg driving from the Dulles air to my home. Some of my entire tanks have been over 30mpg. Even around town I get 22 or better.
Go test drive one, you'll agree. It's a lot quicker.
I do agree that right now the Honda has better incentives and better pricing. It would be a tough choice. Back in May 2007 the Sienna was actually a tad cheaper. An Ody EX was $26,883 when I priced one. Today they're under $25 grand. Huge difference! :surprise:
It's because the difference is larger than 230 to 244. The new SAE hp rating procedures lowered ratings for both vehicles for 2006. The engine power didn't physically change, but the number put on it did.
Your same 230hp engine was re-rated 215hp for 2006; the Odyssey's 255 was re-rated 244 for 2006. So the difference is 215 to 244, or 230 to 255, depending on what data you want to use.
215hp to 244hp would be a noticeable improvement.
244hp to 266hp would also be a noticeable improvement. Drive 'em back to back and you'll agree.
One crazy member actually filmed a 0-60 run and put it up on YouTube. Right around 7 seconds. Hilarious.