What would it be like if Daimler took over Ferrari? Would it be like this?
Daimler CEO, "We're going to design a new Ferrari 308 GTB."
Token Ferrari Exec, "Fantastic, it's a Ferrari classic that was known for an appealing aerodynamic body and aggressive stance. With wind tunnel tests we can decrease its drag and improve its performance even more."
Chief Daimler Designer & CEO golf buddy, "Hold on, that's too costly. We just want the name for sales; we don't want this car to draw upon the 308's sex appeal or racing legacy. I want it to look as if it has mutated into a completely different vehicle."
Daimler CEO, "That's a great Idea; we can save money by putting it on our shorter, stubby Mercedes frames."
Chief Daimler Designer, "Yes, by chopping off that sleek Ferrari nose and replacing it with a grill from a delivery van we can do this. Also, by putting disproportionately huge rear wheel wells on the car, we can maintain the look of a toad that's about to leap upon its prey."
Token Ferrari exec, "What are you talking about? You're completely ignoring the Ferrari mystique and design cues. What seasoned Ferrari enthusiast is going to buy one of your cardboard boxes?”
Daimler CEO, "We just want the Ferrari logo on the car for name recognition. If those, "Stuck in the Past" Ferrari owners don't like it they can take their business elsewhere and you can let the door hit their butts on the way out.”
Daimler Marketing Department, "Yeah, and to promote the vehicle we can get some paroled rap artist to fawn all over the car to pump up the youth sales. Then, we could turn around and sell it to the police. That way we can get sales from both sides of the law. Also, if we pay off a few race car drivers, they'll give the trophy for the cutest baby to the ugliest kid on the stage, or car in this case.“
Daimler CEO, "How about a movie with the new Ferrari 308 GTB based on the Magnum P.I. TV show? Instead of driving up in the older and sleeker version we can have him drive up in our new delivery van Ferrari 308 GTB.”
Daimler Chief Designer, "Yes, yes and I can put a stripe on the car to make it look exciting. Those kids are so gullible, you know.“
Token Ferrari Exec, "You're destroying the Ferrari name. Ferrari stands for class & distinction; you can't show them a steak dinner and then give them an Egg-McMuffin.”
Daimler Chief Designer, "You're a lunatic. No one wants that old reworked aerodynamic Ferrari design, they just want the name. We could sell a swayback mule as a thoroughbred racehorse and as long as we still had that two percent of the population that believes anything, we can get our sales.“
Daimler CEO, "And once we've eradicated any semblance of the original Ferrari's designs from the face of the earth, we can drop the Ferrari name altogether.“
No offense meant towards Andre, but the "Daimlerization" of Chrysler has produced the first Chrysler family products to interest me since the late 60's models. Actually even got me into the dealer to test drive a 300C and poke around the showroom. For the first time in a long time, Chrysler/Dodge is starting to put out some interesting, exciting and (at least for the time being) what appear to be quality products.
While I would have preferred the Charger name be worn by a coupe, I'd much rather have the 4-door Charger out there than the same old stuff they've been cranking out for so long that relegated them to a solid "also ran" auto manufacturer. If they can keep up the momentum, that will certainly change (as it already has some).
It's kinda funny to me that there's so much venom directed toward the new Charger. Sure, it's not a coupe (which I too would have preferred), but consider what it is: a large, rwd car with a big, torquey V8...and it's certainly a sight better looking than its (only) competitor, the Ford Crown Vic. Plus, unlike the muscle-car-era Chargers, this one will actually handle and stop decently.
Not more than a few years ago, it was predicted that the "new" musclecars of this era would be exclusively small sedans powered by turbo-4s (the Subarus and Mitsubishis). Isn't it at least somewhat cool that Chrysler is trying to keep the old flame burning? I mean consider the last car to wear the Charger name. The new Charger might not be perfect, but isn't it a step in the right direction? :confuse:
while I would have preferred a coupe, or at least the option of a coupe, when I think of some of the horrible things they could have done with the Charger nameplate, it makes me downright grateful for the Charger we ARE getting!
Plus, the Charger, not even the original, was ever a "dedicated" musclecar in the way that a Roadrunner, GTO, GTX, etc were. Those cars came with big-block V-8's and performance intentions right from the get-go, and even in their most basic form. The Charger was a bit of a hybrid, a combination of personal luxury coupe and sporty car. There were 440 and 426 Hemi options that turned it into a musclecar, to be sure, but there were also slant six and 318-2bbl variants aplenty. You weren't going to get such wussy motors in something like a GTO or Roadrunner! Well, unless it was a Volare Roadrunner or a '74 GTO! :P
I keep going back and forth about the new Charger. I kind of liked the look of the one we had pictured in the ad for the Charger chat a while back, even though it's not really what pops into my head when I think Charger. Then I went tot he Phillly Auto Show and saw the black one they had on display in person. That kind of flipped me to the "what were they thinking" side.
Might be that the colors are causing me to sway back and forth on it.
I'll give it this much for sure. It's distinctive and easily identifiable at a glance. And as someone who dreaded the days when the styling of everything left us with what looked like an assortment of different sized Taurus', any step in the direction of unique styling are OK by me!
The new LX cars are the most interesting vehicles to come out of Detroit (Stuttgart?) in a very long time. Cars with 340hp, 390 tq, and prices under 40K. The Magnum RT AWD that just came into my family is an incredibly fun and capable car. Thank the car gods that DCX had the ball$ to produce such a car!
The Dodge Charger is going to be a huge hit. It's not a 2-door, get over it. The Charger nameplate was dead for years. It's not like the Mustang which has been in steady production since 1964. You MOPAR fanatics should be rooting for the Charger to be a smash hit so DCX can finance bringing a low-production 2-door muscle coupe to the market.
I for one love the look of the Charger. If my father's Magnum holds up well I may trade my Accord for a Charger R/T next year. Give DCX a break already. They're the good guys here! They're the only bright light in the American auto industry right now.
if the Charger had stayed on the course it was following in the 80's, it would be on the Neon platform by now!
If I ever do get another new car (and that's a big IF, because my Intrepid refuses to die, and even if it did I dunno if I'm ready to go back into another monthly payment), it would probably be a Charger, or maybe a 300C. Leaning a bit more toward that Charger because I've always been a bit more of a Dodge kinda guy, I guess.
It's not a 2-door, get over it. The Charger nameplate was dead for years. It's not like the Mustang which has been in steady production since 1964. You MOPAR fanatics should be rooting for the Charger to be a smash hit so DCX can finance bringing a low-production 2-door muscle coupe to the market.
if one reason that the Charger is stirring up so much controversy is because while it hasn't been a consistent car over the years, as the Mustang has, it's been about the closest thing to consistency the Mopar crowd has! When you think about it, what else was there when it came to Dodge? The Challenger only ran from 1970-74, and while they were good performers for the time, and some of the Hemi and big block models bring big bucks today, they were considered losers from a sales standpoint when they were new. While not nearly as glamorous, from a performance standpoint you were almost better off just getting a Dart/Demon 340 or 360.
The Dodge Coronet R/T and Superbee musclecars only lasted a few years. Dodge just didn't have the consistent, long-running names like the others did with the Mustang, Camaro, GTO, Chevy SS models, Olds 4-4-2 (I'm conveniently forgetting the Calais 4-4-2 here :lemon: ) etc.
And while I'm thinking about it, how come there wasn't this much fuss over the 300M when it came out? Last time I checked, none of the original '55-65 Chrysler 300 Letter series were offered with a V-6, FWD, or 4-door configuration! And now they have the nerve to go back in the alphabet to the 300C?! Which, like all Letter Series, only came as a 2-door hardtop or convertible. The BLASPHEMY!! :P
BTW, I remember a lot of whining about the '94 Impala SS when it first came out. No tach, no floorshift, no manual, and, heaven forbid, FOUR DOORS! Seems to me most of that whining stopped once the car was actually released!
re the Impala SS, it's funny that it's even more popular now, and totally a minor-key collectible. And I've seen quite a few Caprices that have been "Impala-ized"...as they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
As much as I love Mustangs, I'd love it even more if a success of the Charger spurred Chrylser to throw its hat back into the pony car ring. A new small, 2-door Dodge Challenger with available "hemi" engine would be a great complement to the Charger Sedan (and could serve as a much better replacement for the so-so Stratus coupe).
Who knows...maybe one day we'll even see the Trans-Am series look like it did back in the day...Ford vs. Chevy vs. Chrylser!
This is clearly the best car to wear the Charger name since the original, heck, it's the best ever, really....it would run rings around the old ones on a race track..... but people whine because it has 4 doors....
As was mentioned many times in this thread, there were A LOT worse cars back in the dark days of the 70s and 80s that wore a "Charger" badge....
Let DC shorten this chassis, give it a nose job and tail bob, make it a 2 door and call it a Challenger. That would give the 2 door crowd (most of whome probably drive a 4 door or SUV now) something to rush out and not buy.
"I believe the first shipments should be hitting the showroom floors around mid-May. As far as the transmission goes, the closest to a manual will be an "Autostick" type setup."
it's an automatic transmission that you can shift manually. IIRC, as you shift through Park, Reverse, Neutral, and Drive, there's another spot below Drive. Shift down into there, and there's a + on one side and a - on the other. When you go down into that mode, sliding the lever over to the + will make you upshift, and sliding it to the - will make you downshift.
Personally, I've always wondered how it's any different from just shifting an automatic transmission manually. The Autostick has safeguards built in to keep you from over-revving or lugging the engine, but most modern automatics these days do, anyway. Heck, even a 1957 Mopar Torqueflite automatic has safeguards built into it to keep you from hitting too low of a gear at too high of a speed!
I guess one advantage though, is that you might be able to manually select first gear. On the regular Mopar tranny, or at least the one in my Intrepid, it has a spot for Overdrive, Drive, and "Low", which will only hold second gear, but not first.
I'm not sure about in the Charger, but in my Acura TL, it will not hold first gear....it will upshift to second no matter what....it WILL however hold second gear and not upshift....I also agree, to me anyway, it's an over-rated feature.... it's fun to play with for the first week or so that you own the car, then the "new" wears off and you pretty much just put it in D and drive...
I agree with davem2001...it's fun for awhile and then you get bored with it.
They will let you downshift though, as long as you're in the speed/rpm range for that gear...that's kinda fun at the limits...
I'd love it if the Charger had a full-on manual, but I also realize that it's a dying market these days...too bad, as a 5 spd would make for one hotrod family car...
Howard: "Joe, I thought Mikey was supposed to get one of those new Dodge Chargers. That doesn't look anything like that sleek, eye-catching car that he showed me in the magazine. That stubby thing looks like a combination truck and hatchback. What happened?"
Joe: "Well Howard, it's like this. The magazine showed the '99 Charger concept car. For years it caused a great deal of anticipation among auto enthusiasts because it integrated modern technologies with the aggressive stance and charisma of the original Chargers attractive design cues. Multitudes were waiting for their chance to buy one. Then, Daimler came along pulled the plug on the real heir to the Charger and substituted the "Family Truckster" over their, for it."
Howard: "Was Daimler brain dead? There's no comparison, that thing looks hideous. Like Pontiac Aztec meets Chevy S-10 Pickup."
Joe: "Apparently, Daimler feels they can save money by calling a one-eyed, three-legged swayback mule a thoroughbred racehorse and people will be gullible enough to buy it."
Howard & Joe laugh with disbelief.
Joe: “I sort of feel sorry for ‘ol Mikey, the same thing happened when he had his house built.”
Howard Chuckling: “Oh yeah, I remember that. He told the builder that he wanted the luxurious “Colonial” built on his lot, but the builder built that little rancher on it instead.”
Joe cuts in laughing: “And the builder made Mikey happy by merely renaming the rancher “The Colonial.”
Howard smiling: “The other day Mikey and I went to breakfast and the waitress brought him a bowl of cereal instead of the steak & eggs that he had asked for. He still ate the cereal without saying a word.”
Joe grinning: “Well, you know Mikey. He’s one of those new Dodge Charger owners, Mikey will eat anything.”
Both men laugh hysterically while shaking their heads.
Is this guy a Ford or Chevy dealer who's trying to deter sales of the Charger? Heck his whole screen name revolves around detering sales of this current Charger......... :confuse:
but it's actually having the opposite efffect on me, making me want one more and more! :shades: BTW, if anybody's interested, Dodge finally has the Charger listed on its website, so you can go there and spec one out. Looks like even the basic Charger SE comes standard with a 5-speed automatic, 3.5 250 hp V-6, and ABS/Traction Control. Sounds like a screaming bargain, for only $22,995, destination included.
Of course, it's still only going to have steel wheels with plastic hubcaps, no sunroof, cloth seats, probably no CD player, and, the horror, you probably won't have a power seat. Oh, the humanity.
was really cool, and yeah, I'd say that if you're comparing the 2006 Charger to THAT beauty, then yeah, it kinda sucks. Kind of in the same way that a '68 Charger with a 383 might suck compared to a 1970 Superbird with a Hemi. But I'll "tolerate" one! :P
Itsnotacharger, it's good to see you're back. Wrote you in the other board as well. Deiter killed our 99 out of ego. His group didn't want American influence in the new millennium Charger. For those that say we "Whine" about 4 doors, anyone buying one of those new Mustangs with 4 doors? How about a 4 Door Vette? Makes sense? No? After all, your arguments about 4 doors selling so well and 2 doors are dead, it would make sense to add 2 extra doors to these cars and make them "more practical". GM and Ford can sell more of them then. Hey Bobby Lutz, you reading these like Robin T. over at Daimler? Fix the Vettes and make them 4 doors, I will buy one then, well that is if Bill Ford doesn't beat you to it with a 4 door Stang, that would be sweat. Ford can start an ad campaign with those hickish guys that say, "That thing got a Hemi?". They can say, "That thing got 4 doors? Sweet!"
Yeah, let's forget about the Viper, Prowler, Rams, Ram SRT 10, and PT Cruiser just to name a few. Chrysler at the time had an industry best of building cars pretty damn close to concept form. So, if you had a dime for the failed Chrysler concepts you'd have about $ .30 with the Chronos, Atlantic, and Charger. Let me know what you can buy with that now , rich man.
Didn't the Atlantic sort of turn into the Pacifica? Different grill and all?
on a smaller, sporty car where the emphasis is on looking good and showing off. But the market for bigger 2-door cars is pretty much dead. Only thing that's left at this point is the Chevy Monte Carlo. Sure, BMW and Benz might make a few fairly large 2-doors, but they're essentially subcompacts inside.
Adding 4 doors to a Vette, Mustang, etc would be useless because sporty cars either have no back seat at all, or one that's essentially useless, and only there to give the car a better insurance rate (4 seaters are usually cheaper to insure than 2 seaters).
BTW, that '99 Charger concept that is being cried over actually IS a 4-door! It's just a closely-coupled 4-door car that's styled to resemble a coupe. For all intents and purposes, this new Charger is just Dodge's entry in the mainstream family car market. They could just as easily have called it Intrepid, Dynasty, Diplomat, Monaco, or Coronet. But I think Charger sounds better than any of them. Would we rather they called this new one "St. Regis"? It has a longer wheelbase than one.
While we're on the subject of originality, the original Magnum was sort of a hybrid between personal luxury coupe and musclecar, whereas the new one is a 4-door wagon that managed to get classified by the EPA and CAFE as a truck! No resemblance whatsoever to a "real" Magnum! But I don't hear anyone whining about THAT! :P
So if there can be a 4-door Impala SS, a Magnum station wagon, a FWD 300 (M), I don't see why there can't be a 4-door Charger.
Autostick - is this an added feature for the car or would it come standard? I have experienced it before in an Acura but not played around with it too much. Seems like a feature that applies to the more practical use of the car like the 4-doors. Sounds alright if included how much does it actually pull of the manual feel though?
Thanx for the heads up on the web-site. Nice way to really feel out the car and its options. Price point still seems very affordable and the inferno red is a great look.
Seems to me Andre (I think it was Andre anyway) got it right a ways back...when a car doesn't have a continous production history, it becomes harder to point to a single, defining ethos of what that car is in execution.
Add to that the pressures of today's marketplace that places many competiting demands on a design team, and it's not hard to understand how we went from coupe-ish concept to 4-door sedan.
In the grand scheme of things, I can't say it really bugs me that much (the lack of a true manual transmission is a lot more annoying, but so it goes). And I can't see any sort of conspiracy here, except maybe to provide a large group of potential buyers what they want in a car... :confuse:
But the market for bigger 2-door cars is pretty much dead. Only thing that's left at this point is the Chevy Monte Carlo.
As far as I'm concerned, the Charger never competed against the Mustang or the Corvette, it was more against the GM "mid sizers" like the Chevelle, the GTO, the Olds 442, etc... and the Ford/Mercury of the same size, I forget what they called them - the Torino, (like Starsky and Hutch drove) etc...
the only Chargers that ever really excited me were the '68-70 models. Around '71-74, "Charger" was just what they called the 2-door midsizers. 4-doors were Coronets, and ALL 2-doors, whether they were cheap slant six strippers, pimped up cruisers with plush velour and landau roofs and power everything, or armed-to-the-teeth with 440 V-8's. It wasn't like the '68-70 models, where you had the mass-market Coronets, and then the Charger was a little more upscale and "specialty".
In '75, the Charger was just a Cordoba with a checkerboard grille and a hundred bucks or so slashed off the price. Now you could still get them with 400's and 440's, and some of 'em were pretty potent for the time, but most of them were just 318-2bbls or an occasional 360. And for '78 the Charger got outshadowed by the Magnum X/E, a car that looked the part of a musclecar, even if it didn't have the engine to back it up. But then, look at what was out there around '78-79. The best you could probably get was an Aspen R/T or Volare Roadrunner with a 360-4bbl and around 195 hp. Ford wasn't putting anything resembling power in any of the Fairmonts, Granadas, or even T-birds and Cougars of the time. Pontiac did have a Grand Am in '78...I think it put out a whopping 150 hp from a 301-4bbl. Whoopee. There was a 4-4-2 variant of the downsized Cutlass, which got a 160 hp Olds 350-4bbl. Wow. Contain your excitement, please. But sadly, compared to stuff like that, a Magnum with a 400-4bbl and 200+ hp, or a 195 hp Volare Roadrunner, or hell, even a 1979 St. Regis police car was actually something to get excited about! :surprise:
Thanks Andre for reviewing the history - IMO, other than the 68 thru early '70s, the Charger name has been slapped on some pretty average to below-average cars.....the new 2006, ok maybe you can nitpick the styling or complain that it has 4 doors, but it's probably the fastest Charger since the late 60's, probably the best handling EVER, probably the best built, etc... Certainly much more worthy of the name than anything from the 70s or 80s.
that with the Hemi V-8, the new Charger would probably be quicker than a '68-70 with the Hemi or 440. If nothing else, the cars of today would benefit from a tranny with more gears and greater versatility.
Consumer Reports tested a '68 or '69 Charger with a 440-4bbl. I can't remember if it was the 350 or 375 hp version. It had a 3-speed Torqueflite and a 3.23:1 rear end, which is a good, "middle-of-the-road' ratio. They got 0-60 in 7.0 seconds out of it. I forget what the 1/4 mile time was, but I want to say 14 second range. They also tore up the tires on it during the time they had it! :P Now, 0-60 in 7 seconds doesn't sound like a big deal, but keep in mind this is Consumer Reports getting 7 seconds out of it! They tended to be a bit more conservative back then. I'm sure C&D or MT would've gotten 3.9 seconds out of it, like they did that time with a '65 Catalina 2+2 421!
But basically, they could have gone with more aggressive gearing, like a 3.89:1, 4.11:1, 4.56:1, etc. I dunno if they got shorter than that, but in '56 you could actually get a 6.07:1 in the 300B! That would give you better 0-60, and maybe a better quarter mile, but then you'd probably be topping out at 100 mph! And go the other way, like a 2.76:1 or 2.94:1, and you'd get a higher top speed, but worse 0-60 and quarter mile time.
IIRC, the current Hemi is good for 0-60 in around 6 seconds, and the SRT-8 Hemi is even quicker! Heck, I think even the 3.5 V-6 is good for 0-60 in around 8 seconds, which is a pretty decent time. I think it's just not so "exciting" anymore though, because there are so many cars today, even mundane ones, that can hit 0-60 in 8 seconds.
Talk about "short" gearing - geez, the top speed might not have even been 100mph! Probably did have awesome 0-60 times!
I was thinking, if you combined a really "short" final drive like that with a modern 6 speed auto - and have the top 3 gears be really "tall", you'd maybe have the best of both worlds....great accelleration in the first 2 or 3 gears, and then quiet cruising in the higher gears
mentioned that, so-equipped, a '56 300B might have been good for 0-60 in about 5 seconds! Considering the tire technology and other stuff at the time though, I imagine that all it would end up doing is spin out!
In some ways, when overdrive automatic trannies started coming out in the early 80's (Ford was first of the Big Three, in 1980), they did take advantage of the taller highway gearing and put in a shorter differential. For example, a 1979 Mark V or Continental sedan would've had a 400-2bbl with maybe 159-166 hp, a 3-speed automatic, and a ~2.52:1 rear end. For 1980, they came with a 302-2bbl standard, 4-speed automatic, and a 3.08:1 rear. They also lost about 600-800 lb or so of bulk in the process, but no doubt that 3.08 rear helped out immensely with the 0-60 time. C&D or MT tested a 1980 Mark VI, and got 0-60 in 11.0 seconds. I think that one might have had a 351-2bbl, though. Still, for that era, that's NOT a bad acceleration time! IIRC, in that same test they had a Chrysler NYer 5th Avenue that was only good for 0-60 in 14.1 seconds! The NYer was stuck with a tepid 120 hp 318-2bbl, 3-speed Torqueflite, and 2.45:1 gearing.
Maybe the Charger will strike me in a different way if I see one "in the wild" out on the roads. Just sitting still at the auto show, I was not moved much in any direction, although that could have been because if was the first day of the show in Philly and the display around it wan't completely set up yet.
I don't know that I'll go WOW when one finally drives past me, but that will be a better look at it when the time comes.
I did hear a few comments about the truck-like front end at the show...
the "truck-like" part of the grille, because I've been around old cars all my life. All the Charger's grille is, is a return to the way car grilles used to be, before they started slicking cars back and then rounding them off in the 80's. If you compare it to something like an Intrepid, then yeah, it's pretty "trucky". Compare it to a Dynasty, Diplomat, or St. Regis, and it's almost petite!
the biggest styling "fault" of the Charger is that it's obvious with the styling that the 300 came first. Instead of designing a basic car that could be tailored to suit both the 300 and the Charger, and have them both look good, instead it looks like they did the 300 first, and then went back and tried to see how much they could change to make it look like a different car, while retaining as many of the "hard points" (windshield, B-pillar, door cutouts, overall length, width, etc) as possible. As a result it does look clumsy from some angles. For instance, at some angles at the rear it looks like they took the rear window from an Intrepid and forced it on there, and the taillights definitely look Intrepid-inspired. But then, at the same time, I always thought the Intrepid's rump, with its slight hint of a flying buttress C-pillar, and taillights that go full-width but taper at the middle, were just a tiny bit Charger-ish. So maybe we've come full-circle here!
IMO, the Charger would definitely benefit from a longer hood, a slightly shorter roofline, and maybe a slightly longer rear deck. As it is, the LX is a bit disproportionate, with a 120" wheelbase, but an overall length of only 196". The last time cars had a wheelbase of 120" or so, the overall length was more like 220"+. They could easily add a few inches to this car, to balance it better, while still not ending up with a behemoth.
Here is a little link with info about the upcoming "teaser" commercial set to air this weekend. If only the Cup teams could actually pull out a win http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0505/06/C01-173232.htm Has a nice shot of NASCAR dad, sipping what else? A cup of coffee. The muscle car heritage turns to this? Midlife guy with a cup of coffee and a Mexican made Hemi. I'm going to just wait and see how bad DCX screws up the Challenger.
Who's Dodge supposed to be targeting with the Charger? Gen-Y and beyond aren't interested in what they view as antiquated dinosaurs, and in any event, these aren't exactly cheap cars...seems the "NASCAR Dad" segment is Chrylser's gold-mine if they actually want to keep this car in production for any length of time. The Babyboomers are going to make or break the car...they're the only ones with the money who actually remember the "classic" Chargers in detail. So as annoying as it is (I'm a Gen-Xer myself, and so saw only the tail-end of the muscle car era), such is the market.
Besides, speaking of muscle-car heritage, this seems to me to be big step up from the last iteration of the Charger...
My local Dodge dealer finally got a Charger in stock, and its now on display outside his dealership. Now that the car is in the real world, and not in a glitzy auto show display, here are a few impressions.
1. Yes, this one has a Hemi. In deep black, it would look like a sleeper that could blow the doors off of anything next to it, save a Vette, Porsche, Ferrari, AMG, etc., save for the Hemi badging.
2. This particular car, an R/T, was completely loaded and stickered for $33,570, or about the same as a similarly loaded GTO. Now that the Goat has 400 HP, and somewhat workable hood scoops, the Charger could also use some performance cues as well, other than the Daytona package.
3. There are very subtle styling cues from the 68-71 Charger, but they do not stand out to the extent that they would make the car look retro. Perhaps someone in the aftermarket will come up with a grille that would be more reminiscent of the 68-70 Charger given that there is a prominent open nose space.
4. This Charger has a $1450 NAV package. Was that really necessary? Leave the NAV for the Mercedes and the Chrysler 300C.
5. As far as body style goes, you can't accuse Chrysler of badge engineering the Charger off of the 300C. There is virtually no resemblance on the surface, although plenty of resemblance underneath. There is some resemblance in the tail to the 300M however.
6. This Charger, while exciting, does not push me over the edge into the "Gotta have now" zone. I hope it does well and honors the badge, but it will take more ooomph to get me interested.
Comments
Daimler CEO, "We're going to design a new Ferrari 308 GTB."
Token Ferrari Exec, "Fantastic, it's a Ferrari classic that was known for an appealing aerodynamic body and aggressive stance. With wind tunnel tests we can decrease its drag and improve its performance even more."
Chief Daimler Designer & CEO golf buddy, "Hold on, that's too costly. We just want the name for sales; we don't want this car to draw upon the 308's sex appeal or racing legacy. I want it to look as if it has mutated into a completely different vehicle."
Daimler CEO, "That's a great Idea; we can save money by putting it on our shorter, stubby Mercedes frames."
Chief Daimler Designer, "Yes, by chopping off that sleek Ferrari nose and replacing it with a grill from a delivery van we can do this. Also, by putting disproportionately huge rear wheel wells on the car, we can maintain the look of a toad that's about to leap upon its prey."
Token Ferrari exec, "What are you talking about? You're completely ignoring the Ferrari mystique and design cues. What seasoned Ferrari enthusiast is going to buy one of your cardboard boxes?”
Daimler CEO, "We just want the Ferrari logo on the car for name recognition. If those, "Stuck in the Past" Ferrari owners don't like it they can take their business elsewhere and you can let the door hit their butts on the way out.”
Daimler Marketing Department, "Yeah, and to promote the vehicle we can get some paroled rap artist to fawn all over the car to pump up the youth sales. Then, we could turn around and sell it to the police. That way we can get sales from both sides of the law. Also, if we pay off a few race car drivers, they'll give the trophy for the cutest baby to the ugliest kid on the stage, or car in this case.“
Daimler CEO, "How about a movie with the new Ferrari 308 GTB based on the Magnum P.I. TV show? Instead of driving up in the older and sleeker version we can have him drive up in our new delivery van Ferrari 308 GTB.”
Daimler Chief Designer, "Yes, yes and I can put a stripe on the car to make it look exciting. Those kids are so gullible, you know.“
Token Ferrari Exec, "You're destroying the Ferrari name. Ferrari stands for class & distinction; you can't show them a steak dinner and then give them an Egg-McMuffin.”
Daimler Chief Designer, "You're a lunatic. No one wants that old reworked aerodynamic Ferrari design, they just want the name. We could sell a swayback mule as a thoroughbred racehorse and as long as we still had that two percent of the population that believes anything, we can get our sales.“
Daimler CEO, "And once we've eradicated any semblance of the original Ferrari's designs from the face of the earth, we can drop the Ferrari name altogether.“
Have a nice day.
While I would have preferred the Charger name be worn by a coupe, I'd much rather have the 4-door Charger out there than the same old stuff they've been cranking out for so long that relegated them to a solid "also ran" auto manufacturer. If they can keep up the momentum, that will certainly change (as it already has some).
Not more than a few years ago, it was predicted that the "new" musclecars of this era would be exclusively small sedans powered by turbo-4s (the Subarus and Mitsubishis). Isn't it at least somewhat cool that Chrysler is trying to keep the old flame burning? I mean consider the last car to wear the Charger name. The new Charger might not be perfect, but isn't it a step in the right direction? :confuse:
Plus, the Charger, not even the original, was ever a "dedicated" musclecar in the way that a Roadrunner, GTO, GTX, etc were. Those cars came with big-block V-8's and performance intentions right from the get-go, and even in their most basic form. The Charger was a bit of a hybrid, a combination of personal luxury coupe and sporty car. There were 440 and 426 Hemi options that turned it into a musclecar, to be sure, but there were also slant six and 318-2bbl variants aplenty. You weren't going to get such wussy motors in something like a GTO or Roadrunner! Well, unless it was a Volare Roadrunner or a '74 GTO! :P
Might be that the colors are causing me to sway back and forth on it.
I'll give it this much for sure. It's distinctive and easily identifiable at a glance. And as someone who dreaded the days when the styling of everything left us with what looked like an assortment of different sized Taurus', any step in the direction of unique styling are OK by me!
The Dodge Charger is going to be a huge hit. It's not a 2-door, get over it. The Charger nameplate was dead for years. It's not like the Mustang which has been in steady production since 1964. You MOPAR fanatics should be rooting for the Charger to be a smash hit so DCX can finance bringing a low-production 2-door muscle coupe to the market.
I for one love the look of the Charger. If my father's Magnum holds up well I may trade my Accord for a Charger R/T next year. Give DCX a break already. They're the good guys here! They're the only bright light in the American auto industry right now.
If I ever do get another new car (and that's a big IF, because my Intrepid refuses to die, and even if it did I dunno if I'm ready to go back into another monthly payment), it would probably be a Charger, or maybe a 300C. Leaning a bit more toward that Charger because I've always been a bit more of a Dodge kinda guy, I guess.
LOL! I agree totally!
The Dodge Coronet R/T and Superbee musclecars only lasted a few years. Dodge just didn't have the consistent, long-running names like the others did with the Mustang, Camaro, GTO, Chevy SS models, Olds 4-4-2 (I'm conveniently forgetting the Calais 4-4-2 here :lemon: ) etc.
And while I'm thinking about it, how come there wasn't this much fuss over the 300M when it came out? Last time I checked, none of the original '55-65 Chrysler 300 Letter series were offered with a V-6, FWD, or 4-door configuration! And now they have the nerve to go back in the alphabet to the 300C?! Which, like all Letter Series, only came as a 2-door hardtop or convertible. The BLASPHEMY!! :P
BTW, I remember a lot of whining about the '94 Impala SS when it first came out. No tach, no floorshift, no manual, and, heaven forbid, FOUR DOORS! Seems to me most of that whining stopped once the car was actually released!
As much as I love Mustangs, I'd love it even more if a success of the Charger spurred Chrylser to throw its hat back into the pony car ring. A new small, 2-door Dodge Challenger with available "hemi" engine would be a great complement to the Charger Sedan (and could serve as a much better replacement for the so-so Stratus coupe).
Who knows...maybe one day we'll even see the Trans-Am series look like it did back in the day...Ford vs. Chevy vs. Chrylser!
As was mentioned many times in this thread, there were A LOT worse cars back in the dark days of the 70s and 80s that wore a "Charger" badge....
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
What is "autostick?"
Personally, I've always wondered how it's any different from just shifting an automatic transmission manually. The Autostick has safeguards built in to keep you from over-revving or lugging the engine, but most modern automatics these days do, anyway. Heck, even a 1957 Mopar Torqueflite automatic has safeguards built into it to keep you from hitting too low of a gear at too high of a speed!
I guess one advantage though, is that you might be able to manually select first gear. On the regular Mopar tranny, or at least the one in my Intrepid, it has a spot for Overdrive, Drive, and "Low", which will only hold second gear, but not first.
They will let you downshift though, as long as you're in the speed/rpm range for that gear...that's kinda fun at the limits...
I'd love it if the Charger had a full-on manual, but I also realize that it's a dying market these days...too bad, as a 5 spd would make for one hotrod family car...
Howard:
"Joe, I thought Mikey was supposed to get one of those new Dodge Chargers. That doesn't look anything like that sleek, eye-catching car that he showed me in the magazine. That stubby thing looks like a combination truck and hatchback. What happened?"
Joe:
"Well Howard, it's like this. The magazine showed the '99 Charger concept car. For years it caused a great deal of anticipation among auto enthusiasts because it integrated modern technologies with the aggressive stance and charisma of the original Chargers attractive design cues. Multitudes were waiting for their chance to buy one.
Then, Daimler came along pulled the plug on the real heir to the Charger and substituted the "Family Truckster" over their, for it."
Howard:
"Was Daimler brain dead? There's no comparison, that thing looks hideous. Like Pontiac Aztec meets Chevy S-10 Pickup."
Joe:
"Apparently, Daimler feels they can save money by calling a one-eyed, three-legged swayback mule a thoroughbred racehorse and people will be gullible enough to buy it."
Howard & Joe laugh with disbelief.
Joe:
“I sort of feel sorry for ‘ol Mikey, the same thing happened when he had his house built.”
Howard Chuckling:
“Oh yeah, I remember that. He told the builder that he wanted the luxurious “Colonial” built on his lot, but the builder built that little rancher on it instead.”
Joe cuts in laughing:
“And the builder made Mikey happy by merely renaming the rancher “The Colonial.”
Howard smiling:
“The other day Mikey and I went to breakfast and the waitress brought him a bowl of cereal instead of the steak & eggs that he had asked for. He still ate the cereal without saying a word.”
Joe grinning:
“Well, you know Mikey. He’s one of those new Dodge Charger owners, Mikey will eat anything.”
Both men laugh hysterically while shaking their heads.
Of course, it's still only going to have steel wheels with plastic hubcaps, no sunroof, cloth seats, probably no CD player, and, the horror, you probably won't have a power seat. Oh, the humanity.
Maybe I can start a thread to whine and cry that the 300 doesn't look enough like the Chronos and Atlantic concept cars, too! LOL!
If I had a dime for every production car that didn't look as good as it's concept, I'd probably be rich....
Deiter killed our 99 out of ego. His group didn't want American influence in the new millennium Charger.
For those that say we "Whine" about 4 doors, anyone buying one of those new Mustangs with 4 doors? How about a 4 Door Vette? Makes sense? No? After all, your arguments about 4 doors selling so well and 2 doors are dead, it would make sense to add 2 extra doors to these cars and make them "more practical".
GM and Ford can sell more of them then. Hey Bobby Lutz, you reading these like Robin T. over at Daimler? Fix the Vettes and make them 4 doors, I will buy one then, well that is if Bill Ford doesn't beat you to it with a 4 door Stang, that would be sweat. Ford can start an ad campaign with those hickish guys that say, "That thing got a Hemi?". They can say, "That thing got 4 doors? Sweet!"
Didn't the Atlantic sort of turn into the Pacifica? Different grill and all?
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Adding 4 doors to a Vette, Mustang, etc would be useless because sporty cars either have no back seat at all, or one that's essentially useless, and only there to give the car a better insurance rate (4 seaters are usually cheaper to insure than 2 seaters).
BTW, that '99 Charger concept that is being cried over actually IS a 4-door! It's just a closely-coupled 4-door car that's styled to resemble a coupe. For all intents and purposes, this new Charger is just Dodge's entry in the mainstream family car market. They could just as easily have called it Intrepid, Dynasty, Diplomat, Monaco, or Coronet. But I think Charger sounds better than any of them. Would we rather they called this new one "St. Regis"? It has a longer wheelbase than one.
While we're on the subject of originality, the original Magnum was sort of a hybrid between personal luxury coupe and musclecar, whereas the new one is a 4-door wagon that managed to get classified by the EPA and CAFE as a truck! No resemblance whatsoever to a "real" Magnum! But I don't hear anyone whining about THAT! :P
So if there can be a 4-door Impala SS, a Magnum station wagon, a FWD 300 (M), I don't see why there can't be a 4-door Charger.
Thanx for the heads up on the web-site. Nice way to really feel out the car and its options. Price point still seems very affordable and the inferno red is a great look.
Add to that the pressures of today's marketplace that places many competiting demands on a design team, and it's not hard to understand how we went from coupe-ish concept to 4-door sedan.
In the grand scheme of things, I can't say it really bugs me that much (the lack of a true manual transmission is a lot more annoying, but so it goes). And I can't see any sort of conspiracy here, except maybe to provide a large group of potential buyers what they want in a car... :confuse:
As far as I'm concerned, the Charger never competed against the Mustang or the Corvette, it was more against the GM "mid sizers" like the Chevelle, the GTO, the Olds 442, etc... and the Ford/Mercury of the same size, I forget what they called them - the Torino, (like Starsky and Hutch drove) etc...
That segment is deader than a doornail....
1966:
1968:
1971:
1975:
1985:
Andre - Isn't the '85 the one based on the Omni 024?
:P
In '75, the Charger was just a Cordoba with a checkerboard grille and a hundred bucks or so slashed off the price. Now you could still get them with 400's and 440's, and some of 'em were pretty potent for the time, but most of them were just 318-2bbls or an occasional 360. And for '78 the Charger got outshadowed by the Magnum X/E, a car that looked the part of a musclecar, even if it didn't have the engine to back it up. But then, look at what was out there around '78-79. The best you could probably get was an Aspen R/T or Volare Roadrunner with a 360-4bbl and around 195 hp. Ford wasn't putting anything resembling power in any of the Fairmonts, Granadas, or even T-birds and Cougars of the time. Pontiac did have a Grand Am in '78...I think it put out a whopping 150 hp from a 301-4bbl. Whoopee. There was a 4-4-2 variant of the downsized Cutlass, which got a 160 hp Olds 350-4bbl. Wow. Contain your excitement, please. But sadly, compared to stuff like that, a Magnum with a 400-4bbl and 200+ hp, or a 195 hp Volare Roadrunner, or hell, even a 1979 St. Regis police car was actually something to get excited about! :surprise:
Consumer Reports tested a '68 or '69 Charger with a 440-4bbl. I can't remember if it was the 350 or 375 hp version. It had a 3-speed Torqueflite and a 3.23:1 rear end, which is a good, "middle-of-the-road' ratio. They got 0-60 in 7.0 seconds out of it. I forget what the 1/4 mile time was, but I want to say 14 second range. They also tore up the tires on it during the time they had it! :P Now, 0-60 in 7 seconds doesn't sound like a big deal, but keep in mind this is Consumer Reports getting 7 seconds out of it! They tended to be a bit more conservative back then. I'm sure C&D or MT would've gotten 3.9 seconds out of it, like they did that time with a '65 Catalina 2+2 421!
But basically, they could have gone with more aggressive gearing, like a 3.89:1, 4.11:1, 4.56:1, etc. I dunno if they got shorter than that, but in '56 you could actually get a 6.07:1 in the 300B! That would give you better 0-60, and maybe a better quarter mile, but then you'd probably be topping out at 100 mph! And go the other way, like a 2.76:1 or 2.94:1, and you'd get a higher top speed, but worse 0-60 and quarter mile time.
IIRC, the current Hemi is good for 0-60 in around 6 seconds, and the SRT-8 Hemi is even quicker! Heck, I think even the 3.5 V-6 is good for 0-60 in around 8 seconds, which is a pretty decent time. I think it's just not so "exciting" anymore though, because there are so many cars today, even mundane ones, that can hit 0-60 in 8 seconds.
Talk about "short" gearing - geez, the top speed might not have even been 100mph! Probably did have awesome 0-60 times!
I was thinking, if you combined a really "short" final drive like that with a modern 6 speed auto - and have the top 3 gears be really "tall", you'd maybe have the best of both worlds....great accelleration in the first 2 or 3 gears, and then quiet cruising in the higher gears
In some ways, when overdrive automatic trannies started coming out in the early 80's (Ford was first of the Big Three, in 1980), they did take advantage of the taller highway gearing and put in a shorter differential. For example, a 1979 Mark V or Continental sedan would've had a 400-2bbl with maybe 159-166 hp, a 3-speed automatic, and a ~2.52:1 rear end. For 1980, they came with a 302-2bbl standard, 4-speed automatic, and a 3.08:1 rear. They also lost about 600-800 lb or so of bulk in the process, but no doubt that 3.08 rear helped out immensely with the 0-60 time. C&D or MT tested a 1980 Mark VI, and got 0-60 in 11.0 seconds. I think that one might have had a 351-2bbl, though. Still, for that era, that's NOT a bad acceleration time! IIRC, in that same test they had a Chrysler NYer 5th Avenue that was only good for 0-60 in 14.1 seconds! The NYer was stuck with a tepid 120 hp 318-2bbl, 3-speed Torqueflite, and 2.45:1 gearing.
Answer: The VolksCharger.
Even with the Dakota truck grill, this thing has that Volkswagen Jetta look about it.
I don't know that I'll go WOW when one finally drives past me, but that will be a better look at it when the time comes.
I did hear a few comments about the truck-like front end at the show...
IMO, the Charger would definitely benefit from a longer hood, a slightly shorter roofline, and maybe a slightly longer rear deck. As it is, the LX is a bit disproportionate, with a 120" wheelbase, but an overall length of only 196". The last time cars had a wheelbase of 120" or so, the overall length was more like 220"+. They could easily add a few inches to this car, to balance it better, while still not ending up with a behemoth.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0505/06/C01-173232.htm
Has a nice shot of NASCAR dad, sipping what else? A cup of coffee. The muscle car heritage turns to this? Midlife guy with a cup of coffee and a Mexican made Hemi. I'm going to just wait and see how bad DCX screws up the Challenger.
Besides, speaking of muscle-car heritage, this seems to me to be big step up from the last iteration of the Charger...
1. Yes, this one has a Hemi. In deep black, it would look like a sleeper that could blow the doors off of anything next to it, save a Vette, Porsche, Ferrari, AMG, etc., save for the Hemi badging.
2. This particular car, an R/T, was completely loaded and stickered for $33,570, or about the same as a similarly loaded GTO. Now that the Goat has 400 HP, and somewhat workable hood scoops, the Charger could also use some performance cues as well, other than the Daytona package.
3. There are very subtle styling cues from the 68-71 Charger, but they do not stand out to the extent that they would make the car look retro. Perhaps someone in the aftermarket will come up with a grille that would be more reminiscent of the 68-70 Charger given that there is a prominent open nose space.
4. This Charger has a $1450 NAV package. Was that really necessary? Leave the NAV for the Mercedes and the Chrysler 300C.
5. As far as body style goes, you can't accuse Chrysler of badge engineering the Charger off of the 300C. There is virtually no resemblance on the surface, although plenty of resemblance underneath. There is some resemblance in the tail to the 300M however.
6. This Charger, while exciting, does not push me over the edge into the "Gotta have now" zone. I hope it does well and honors the badge, but it will take more ooomph to get me interested.