Subaru B9 Tribeca (B9X)
http://content.subaru.com/sub/misc/04miamiAutoShow/index.html
Here's the first concrete info on the new large upscale Subaru 7-passenger crossover. The car will debut at the Detroit Auto Show in January.
Bob
Here's the first concrete info on the new large upscale Subaru 7-passenger crossover. The car will debut at the Detroit Auto Show in January.
Bob
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Plus, the engine is likely a Boxer 6, B6 would have had more meaning. Maybe B6T if it turns out to be a turbo.
Wife took one peek and said "Lexus" immediately. She thought it was the RX330. I guess that's good, that model is very successful.
I see Murano in the window line, and right away I worry about blind spots. Visibility in every current Subie is a strong point, here is might not be.
Allowing for a very aggressive looking sketch, I still see a very handsome vehicle. Thumbs up. Looks muscular and thoroughly modern.
The grille opening turned out small, and the hood lines match. Definitely see hints of Alfa Romeo influence given Zapatinas' background.
Nice "wings" on each side of the grille too. Headlights are B11S-ish, look good.
They might actually square off the back more than I thought, for decent 3rd row space.
I like the fender flares, they're not overdone but look muscular and designed-in rather than tacked on.
-juice
Built-in fogs.
Doors are square at bottom, as Bob pointed out, like the Suburban (not Tahoe). Indeed, a very long wheelbase would be required if they implement that.
I like the character line running from B- to D-pillar. Makes the vehicle look wide, squat.
Pretty much what I expected, though I think styling turned out better than I thought.
-juice
Need to get some hard info... Come on Detroit!!!
Bob
Looks very decent, though. VDC is a must. If Subaru can't provide this on at least as an option on the base model, its not a contender. Hell, the RAV4, CRV, and Tucson (whose squat stance I see a bit of in this SUV) have it STANDARD.
~alpha
9 = 9 points of style. Huh? That's what the mini site says. Pretty weak justification, if you ask me. So does that mean if there is a future B3, it will only have "3 points of style?" Subaru clearly needs to re-think the name justification—and in a hurry!
X = Crossover (we knew that, sort of...)
Bob
http://www.subdriven.com/news/publish/Subaru_News/article_280.sht- - ml
Bob
http://www.subdriven.com/index.html
~alpha
Before you guys get enamored with the artist's sketch, look at those spyshots from a couple months ago which are a more accurate example of reality. In fact, you can see quite a few real-world details hidden behind the tape and padding.
Craig
BTW, where's swampy at?
DaveM
The nose in that rendering looks better than I thought it would. Still odd, and I don't see how Subaru is going to go after luxury car buyers with such an unconservative design feature, but at least it's unique.
Patti
As I had predicted, the center of the grille is more R1/R1e/B9SC-like in shape, meaning more "square," and not "pointed" like the grilles found on the B11S/R2. It will be interesting to see if the Forester also uses this more square shape.
The only other surprise is the kicked up, Murano-like rear quarter window. That I'm not wild about; not because of the styling, but because it will be somewhat of a blind spot. I don't like it on the BMW X3 either, for that very reason.
As Craig had suggested, it's best to compare this sketch with the photos of the taped over test mule we have all seen. Then you can cross-compare the sketch details with reality, so to speak.
Bob
Also, think of the possibilities...B9XT
-Brian
The fact that it does have an alpha-numeric name suggests to me: (1) all future Subarus will eventually follow suit, (2) all future Subarus will be radically different from their current counterparts, and (3) FHI is dead serious about Subaru's new marketing direction, and has put this move on fast-forward.
Bob
Ken
Bob
I will at least emote this though: ;^)
Bob
• 6-speed manual, as per the BMW X3/X5.
• Cloth seats.
• All-Weather package plus heated steering wheel. You all knew I had to sneak that in.
• Moonroof.
• 3500 towing.
Frosting on the cake would be:
• Larger than 3.0 engine.
• Optional towing of 5000.
• Dual-range tranny.
Bob
IMO, Audi A8 doesnt sound like "ate" since that would be Audi 8. Same thing with WRX (you dont read it "wrecks"). Benign is much less of a stretch than any of that.
Alphanumerics are just fine by me when they make sense and dont associate themselves with mediocrity.
Im sure the vehicle will be awesome....
~alpha
And the limited version should have an ACC that works and a real premium stereo.
Sly
But I still think it is a poor name and a marketing mistake that will cost them sales.
Sly
Hurry up, SOA! Give us more info before we set a world record in putting deep meaning into three alpha-numeric characters!!
Ken
I think that will happen. It seems like a fish out of water now, because it's the first car to be named thusly.
Bob
I think this just shows we all have different reactions to names and numbers in a sequence.
BTW, the common slang for a WRX is "Rex".
Craig
But I think you underestimate the power of the name. Don't think about the 3 people who will refuse to buy it because of the name. Think about the thousands of people who might have checked it out if only it had a cool name.
Sly
Any word on engine displacement?
There will be options or as Subaru likes model codes for the Navigation and Rear DVD and rear climate control.
If I understand you correctly, these may be offered in "packages," which could mean even base models could be ordered with these features. If so, that would be terrific. One of the big problems with most carmakers is that many of the "desirable" options are only available on the most expensive trim line. For example, if you want navigation or All-Mode 4WD on the new '05 Nissan Pathfinder, you have to buy the most expensive LE trim model. I hope Subaru doesn't do that with the B9X.
Bob
Patti (still snickering)
I think, if that comes to pass, it will be regarded by many as a mistake. The current 3.0L, as tuned, is still a rather "peaky" engine in terms of powerband. If installed in the new B9X, it will be in a much heavier vehicle. I would assume it will be a 4000+ pound vehicle, as all the other vehicles it's being positioned against are in that weight range, if not heavier.
Besides the already stated X5, MDX and Murano, the B9X will also go up against the V6 Touareg, Pilot and XC90. The Murano, MDX and Pilot all have 3.5L engines. The Touareg's V6 will be enlarged to 3.6L soon; and the XC90 offers turbos, as well as a new Yamaha-engineered V8.
It's been rumored than an B9X turbo is in the works, but is still a year off. That won't help the kick-off launch of this new vehicle. If the B9X is indeed a 3.0L, it had better have some other tricks up its sleeve. 6-speed trannys, both manual and automatics; a fatter powerband; and a dual-range tranny will all certainly help.
As we've been saying all along, the new B9X is the last to the party; it had better be the best dressed...
Bob
You are absolutely right. Competition is tough in this segment and an undersized engine (relative to the competition) could be the kiss of death. I don't think the H6 3.0 used in the Legacy with the the same performance characteristics would be the right match for this vehicle. The competition all offer stout 6-cylinder engines with very broad torque curves.
I'm hoping Subaru has something in the engine department up it's sleeve. Given the trend with it's recent models towards performance, a slow moving B9X would seem out of place in the Subaru portfolio.
So what are the possibilities?
An all new 6-cylinder? Probably not given the resources of the company.
A low pressure turbo on the H6? Another turbo engine would certainly hurt Subaru's emissions budget. Also, the H6 block may not be turbo ready.
The STi engine? From a power perspective yes, but marketing a vehicle of this size with a 4-banger would be tough.
What would really work well is a hybrid H6 similar in implementation to the Accord hybrid. Excellent gas mileage but very fast as reported in the current C&D. But again, we're back to a small company with limited resources.
Yup, I sure hope they have something up their sleeves.
Ken
Craig
Even so, from a marketing standpoint, a 3.0L engine will be viewed by many as underpowered, considering its main competition offers engines in the 3.5L range. It's the old "bigger-is-better" thing, which Subaru could have a hard time countering.
Bob
Craig
It comes down to "making a first impression," and a B9X with a somewhat questionable (initial) power-to-weight ratio is not in Subaru's best interest, I don't think—especially with Subaru's new-found interest in performance vehicles.
Bob
Bob
Patti
Not to worry, we understand your position, and know that you've been following this discussion. I'm sure you would clarify much of what's been said—if you could.
It must be very frustrating for you. Just have lots of Chapstick on hand for all those times you've been biting your lips.
Bob
Patti
I'm going to say the B9X, while 3.0L, will have a low-boost turbo, on all models.
Think about it: Why would Subaru introduce a new—and so very important (flagship!)—vehicle, to be outgunned by the lighter Outback H-6? it just doesn't make sense.
Bob <living and dying by bold predictions, again>
Craig
I think one thing is for certain: The existing 3.0L H-6, as it currently stands, will be at a disadvantage in a 4000+ pound vehicle. Subaru has stated it will have a 3.0 engine, but have not said anything about any of the specifics—so, I agree a turbo or hybrid assist would solve all and any power issues.
The big thing about hybrid is that it's PC. Yes, it would go a huge way to pacify those who were upset at the Outback now being classified as a truck. And what great PR it would create for Subaru!
Subaru went out of their way to show the B9SC hybrid at Detroit. Also interesting to note that B9X and B9SC share the same root "B9" name. Maybe Jon is on to something here...
Bob
I've been thinking about the published interviews with SOA execs I've read in the past year and a half (which indicate the B9X will initially have a 3.0L normally aspirated 6-cylinder engine, without a turbocharged option). I think I'm prepared to go farther out on a limb than rsholland, who predicts a turbocharged option on all B9X models.
But first I want to go back to the B11S which premiered at the 2003 Geneva Show. As we all know, the B11S sported a twin turbo 3.0L 6-cylinder engine with peak horsepower rated near 400 hp. Presumably, its engine was based on the EZ30. When the Geneva show ended, the NY auto show's press days were one month away. Yet FHI chose not to display it there. In fact, the B11S has never been presented to North America, though its been to Japan, back to Europe again and, I think, Australia. Why is that? Could it be that the B11S's powertrain isn't the one that FHI wants North America to think about?
So what does FHI want North America to contemplate? Obviously, its the B9SC (called the B9 Scrambler when it was introduced at the Tokyo show in 2003). I believe the B9SC was shown in both Detroit and Toronto early this year. The most important new feature of the B9SC was its SSHEV powertrain. For a good high-level understanding of the B9SC's SSHEV, I refer you to http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?print_page=y§ion_- - - - id=7&article_id=1165&page_number=1&preview= . Briefly, the 134 hp electric motor (notice, this is not an engine) powers the B9SC below 50 mph under most circumstances and the B9SC's 2.0L normally aspirated 140 hp gasoline engine takes over above 50. However, they both contribute power under WOT conditions, meaning the combination can be rated as 134+140=274 hp according to Road & Track. People should also note that electric motors typically have a very flat torque curve, meaning they produce roughly the same torque at low RPMs as at high RPMs. This suggests that the B9SC has serious grunt off the line at WOT when both the engine and motor are contributing. Imagine the result of coupling a "peaky" 250 hp EZ30R engine with the grunt of a 134 hp electric motor into a balanced SSHEV package. Using Road & Track math, that amounts to 384 hp!
So, why did SOA's press release cite the B11S (a car it's never shown in North America) instead of the B9SC, a car shown here whose model designation differs only by the suffix? That would've been too broad a hint that SSHEV will be part of the B9X lineup. Patti Mickel, an SOA customer/dealer representative who contributes under the name subaru_team wrote this earlier:The funny thing is that no previous post had asked her for info or an opinion. I think this was her quiet way of signalling that the discussion of likely powertrains (i.e. turbos) had veered away from what she knows will be offered.
So all this leads to my prediction that Subaru will announce in January at Detroit that the B9X will be available with SSHEV. I'm not predicting the first B9Xes will have SSHEV, just that it will be available sometime in 2005.
Some might say "But they would surely put SSHEV on JDM cars first before North America." That would have been true 5 years ago. But FHI has realized its important to get the advanced technology to its most important market (North America) first. That's because FHI's growth potential in North America (1.2% market share) is far greater than in Japan. I'd also point out the JDM still doesn't get a car with an engine rated at 300 lb-ft of torque like the engine in the US STi.
The availability of the SSHEV hybrid powertrain in the B9X would quiet all the greenies who wailed and moaned about the classification of the Outback as a truck. It would insure the B9X is rated best for both fuel economy and emissions (even when compared with cars). It would also likely guarantee a year-long wait list to get into a B9X SSHEV. Would many potential BMW X-5 drivers take a look at a B9X SSHEV? You betcha.
I guess the good news is that we only have a two month wait until the official announcement at NAIAS in Detroit.
Craig
If the time comes when I'm okay with leaking some clues, I'll be pretty obvious about it! Thanks for all of the thought and consideration you put into your post.
Patti