Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

71 Chevelle SS -- yes, the 400 was actually called the LS3 and is fairly common.

Monte Carlo-- wrecker please

71 Corona -- nasty looking rat.

71 Midget is a bit pricey for a car that needs paint. More like $3000 should be all the money here, then slap a Miracle job on it and stop throwing money at it. Fun little cars.

fintail

Seattle "1971":

Under a litre

Nice color

Upgraded

Expensive

Early models

SPICA

Suddenly its 2006

A real truck

Ocean liner

"what a classic"

fintail

I hate those shorty "customs" like that Beetle, they just look wrong.

gsemike

I don't think that those are the original wheel covers on that 'classic' Valiant

michaellno

There's something about that Volvo that is appealing .. basic, honest transportation. Too bad the wheels don't come with the car; I think they add a nice sporty touch.

The Valiant looks like it just came from the set of "Duel".

ghulet

wondering how much this guy's neighbors LOVE him:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/cto/1304631750.html

this is EXACTLY like my first car, except for the color:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/ctd/1303212264.html

another Caddy-boat, looks quite nice for the price:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/cto/1299790341.html

never knew they made a 380SL 6.3:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/cto/1304586209.html

andre1969

Did a 71 Chevelle SS ever come with a 400?

My guess is that it would actually be a 402, which is a big block engine, and commonly called a "396" (it has originally been a 396, but around 1970 was enlarged slightly to 402). Now there was also a smallblock 400, which was basically a 350 bored out so far that the cylinder walls were siamesed. It was mainly a boat-anchor motor used in big cars, 2-bbl carb, 150-180 hp. I don't think there was ever a high-performance version of it, but I could be wrong.

fintail

What are those wheels from, anyway? An 80s turbo model? I like them on that car, too.

I loathe the modern stereo in it, though.

fintail

Look at the menagerie gathered around that limo. I can't imagine the local eyesore enforcement agency hasn't been there.

380SL 6.3...that's hard to do. I think that grille guard accessory is very rare.

fintail

$20 a set at Wally World, no doubt. Funny, as a stock set can't be worth much more.

jlflemmons

Fiat 850 Spider? Run. Run fast. First of all, the engine is 843cc. If he is coming up over 900, it has been bored out, which wouldn't be too surprising for a high rpm engine that doesn't use an oil filter. Oil change every 1500 miles. Owned one of these, taught me the acronym "Fix It Again Tony". Rust like you cannot believe.

Beautiful Mustang convertible, but not worth the money. Anytime someone tells me that their '65/'66 Mustang is rust free, I suggest this little test: Open the floor vent on the drivers side. Then slowly pour water in the vent intake at the base of the windshield. Then watch the water pour into the drivers floorboard. Hidden rust, and common as can be. Requires drilling out over 100 spot welds to get to the cancer, and then, even given the best repair, will rust out again if it is ever driven outdoors. Traps leaves down under the cowling around the interior air intake and just eats away.

Mr_Shiftright

The Caddy ad says "there is hole in the middle of the trunk?" :surprise: :surprise:

400 small block---yep, that was available in an SS--300 HP. In the Camaro, that same option LS3 is listed as a 396. So I'm not sure exactly what's going on here.

I'd need to see the casting #.

explorerx4

has some good advise

texases

That 400/402 thing has me confused - here's what Wiki says (they don't show the 400 small block in the Chevelle until 1973):

"For the 1969 model year, the SS396 series (138xx) was dropped and the Super Sport became a performance option. In 1969 the SS option could be ordered on the 300 Deluxe 2-dr Sport Coupe (13437) and 2-dr sedan (13427) as well as the Malibu 2-dr Sport Coupe (13637), convertible (13667), and El Camino (13680). In 1970 the SS option was limited to the Malibu series (2-dr Sport Coupe, convertible, and El Camino). In both 1969 and 1970 the SS option included the 396/402 as the base engine keeping the option alive as a performance-oriented choice. This changed in 1971 when the SS option could be ordered with any optional V8 and became more of a dress-up option than a performance option.

Prior to 1970, GM had a restriction stating that no mid-size car could have an engine with a displacement over 400 CID. Don Yenko a Chevy dealer outside Pittsburgh, PA discovered a way to get around that edict. Don used the Central Office Production Order system, which normally filled special-equipment fleet orders, to create a special COPO that included the L-72 427 cubic inch 425 horsepower engine and the needed drive train upgrades. A few other dealers ordered the package that Yenko created and sold them as their own supercars. (Berger, Sunico, etc)

In 1970 GM dropped the displacement rule, and that was when the bigger engines were available as regular production options, resulting the addition of an SS454 line option to the existing SS396 option. The 396 engine actually displaced 402 cubic inches due to the factory having to overbore the blocks .030" due to machining issues during production. Most notable was the 454 CID LS5 V8 rated at 360 hp (270 kW)(rated 390hp in Corvettes) and the LS6 at 450 hp (340 kW). The LS6, with 450 hp (340 kW) and 500 ft·lbf (680 N·m) of torque, would rocket the Chevelle through the 1/4 mile in low to mid-13 second times at 105 to 108 mph (174 km/h). In fact, the stock LS6 at 450 hp (340 kW) tied the 1966 Corvette early production 427/450hp as the highest horsepower engines offered by any manufacturer during the muscle car era. There were more powerful engines offered by GM during those years but they were under rated to keep the less savvy buyers from ordering them for street use. The ZL-1 and L-88 427's both were rated at 430hp but produced well over 500hp in stock configurations. They were "race only" engines and very very few were ever installed in production cars. Most were ordered by racers that had factory connections or sold over the parts counter.

For 1971, GM mandated that all divisions design their engines to run on lower-octane regular, low-lead or unleaded gasoline due to tightening emission requirements and in anticipation of the catalytic converter that would be used on 1975 and later models, necessitating the use of unleaded fuel. To permit usage of the lower-octane fuels, all engines featured low compression ratios (9 to 1 and lower; well below the 10.25-11.25 to 1 range on high performance engines of 1970 and earlier). This move reduced horsepower ratings on the big-block engines to 300 for the 402 cubic-inch V8 but surprisingly, the LS-5 454 option got an "advertised" five-horsepower increase to 365. The LS-6 454 option, which was originally announced as a regular production option on the Chevelle SS for 1971, was dropped early in the model year and no official records indicate that any 1971 Chevelles were assembled with the LS-6 engine.

In the face of declining musclecar sales following the "insurance surcharge" wrath of 1970, the Chevelle SS - at least in base form - changed from a specific performance car to a trim package, much like the original Chevelle SS models that pre-dated the introduction of the SS396 in 1966. For 1971, the base Chevelle SS engine was a two-barrel 350 cubic-inch V8 rated at 245 gross (165 net) horsepower and optionally available was a four-barrel carbureted version of the 350 V8 rated at 275 gross (200 net) horsepower. The big block engines of previous years were now extra-cost options including the 402 V8 rated at 300 gross/270 net horsepower; and LS-5 454 V8 with 365 gross and 285 net horsepower. Chevrolet specifications for 1971 included both "gross" and "net" horsepower figures for all engines to ease the transition to 1972 and later years, when Chevy and other manufacturers only listed the "net" horsepower ratings."

Mr_Shiftright

Yes the SS book I have, and the regular engine ID book I have, calls the 1971 396/402 a "400".

omarman

400 small block---yep, that was available in an SS--300 HP. In the Camaro, that same option LS3 is listed as a 396. So I'm not sure exactly what's going on here.

I'd need to see the casting #.

I believe the early 70's LS-3 was actually a big block 402 and marketing may have been a motive behind the "400" designation.

Apparently there is a following for the BB Chevy "Malibu 400" models built in that era.

Some Malibu 400 facts here

andre1969

This probably only added to the confusion, but around that timeframe, Chevy started calling their smallblock 400 the "TurboFire 400" and the big-block 402 the "TurboJet 400".

Eventually though, Chevy started fessing up and putting 402 badges on the the cars, and calling the engine what it really was, rather than just having an asterisk in the sales brochure with a footnote that read "actual displacement 402 cubic inches". I think they only did this on the big cars, though, and not the intermediates.

As for the 400 smallblock, looking through my old car book, it appears there was only one year that it was anywhere near a high performance engine...1970. That year there was a 330 hp version available in the Chevelle and Monte Carlo. That sounds like a fairly "warm" 4-bbl to me...nothing too high-performance, but a step above your typical station wagon motor.

By 1972, the 400 was relegated to a 2-bbl, with 180 hp net, and was the standard engine in the big wagons and perhaps the Caprice, and optional in the other big cars. Soon after that it got choked down so far that it only had 150 hp with the 2-bbl, and needed a 4-bbl to get back up to 180.

gsemike

I'd be interested in seeing a shot under the hood now. The SS badges that carried the cubes always said 396. The 396 big block always had more cache than the 400 small block. I've never known anyone that swore by the 400 small block and it just seems like the only guys that ended up with them just wanted to cheap plentiful SBC parts. If this guy has an SS 396 and it advertising it as a 400, he is doing himself a disservice. Most buyers would assume that he has the small block and that it's not the original engine.

andre1969

If this guy has an SS 396 and it advertising it as a 400, he is doing himself a disservice. Most buyers would assume that he has the small block and that it's not the original engine.

Yeah, that was my first thought too. Like you said, too bad the guy didn't show any pictures of the engine. For the most part, I've heard the smallblock 400 was crap. It was bored out to the point that the cylinder walls were siamesed, so overheating could be an issue. I was also under the impression that when they're bored out that far, it would make the block weaker, but I read somewhere that a siamesed block can actually be stronger than one with water jackets between the cylinders.

My great-uncle used to have a '74 Impala with a 400, and he towed a 30-foot trailer with it. I think that's what the 400's biggest advantage was...more torque than a 350 (but not much more hp), and lighter than a 454. So it was good for stuff like station wagons or towing trailers, where you needed the low-end torque to move a lot of weight, but not necessarily the power to move it in record time.

In 1984, that car was all rusted out, and my great-uncle gave it to his neighbor, who pulled the 400 out of it and used it in some kind of racecar. I'm sure he built it up, too. Dunno what ultimately became of it though, although I know he junked the car body.

lokki

Let's add to the confusion:
" 1971 Chevrolet Nova w/ SS Conversion Kit "
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ctd/1305882021.html

Pretty 71 280SL but there are a lot of other choices of cars for $23,500
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1305960687.html

"nice driver pain" Hurts so good!
http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/ctd/1298695827.html
Also notice that he ducks the 71 Chevelle displacement question -

If you MUST have a VW Squareback
http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/cto/1296117748.html
And it has a real driver's seat too!

All you need is Ken Kesey, a paint brush, and some acid
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1296117620.html

You want an off-road truck???? I'll sell you an OFF ROAD TRUCK!!!
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1293365960.html

A heartbreak waiting to happen to someone
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1292329692.html

Back in The Day, even Buick had a Muscle Car - (but what engine?)
http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/ctd/1274323005.html

An example of Shiftright's rule... "You'll never get out of this deal alive" http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1271389455.html

You say Apollo, I say Nova....
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ctd/1270430833.html

"... the last of the true muscle cars of the era"
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1266636879.html
You sure have to read a lot to get to his bottom-line price

A nice convertible from 1971 but don't race that Roadrunner!
http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/cto/1302409617.html

Mr_Shiftright

6X6 Military Truck -- I think that one's a steal at that price. This is the multi-fuel model, and they are able to drive on the highway. Would be great for hauling, towing, or your own private foreign invasion.

71 Cuda Project -- the man is freakin' crazy. It's a 340 H Code, not a Hemi---AND it doesn't have the right engine. Ask $30K, take $6000.

lokki

I have a soft spot in my heart for those trucks because of an incident in 1977.

I was in the military at the time. A group of 5 of us decided to go camping in the Wasatch mountains in Utah... a beautiful place. One of my friends knew of a beautiful 'secret' camp site beside a waterfall there.

I owned an 67 Alfa Gulia. My friend owned a Gremlin. My Alfa, obviously seated only two. The other 3 rode in the Gremlin. When we arrived, the campsite proved to be about a mile away from the road. However, there was some sort of raised dirt dike about 4 or 5 feet wide that ran in a straight line almost all the way to the campsite. I chose to leave the Alfa at the highway, but my friend said "Hey- it's a Gremlin" and drove along the dike as far as he could. No carrying any gear for him!.

We spent a peaceful and relaxing 3 days, and, on Sunday afternoon I started to hike out. My friend and his Gremlin discovered that there was no place to turn the car around. He started to back out - for 3/4 of a mile. It went well at first, until he got impatient and speeded up. Then, of course, he turned the wheel too far to one side and ended up with the car sitting on its frame - rear wheels dangling uselessly in the air. And no; 5 of us, although young and strong, were not able to pick up a car sitting on its frame and move it enough to get the wheels any traction.

To say we faced a dilemma is a bit of an understatement. We had to be back at work on Monday morning - some 500 miles away. No cell phones in those days. Nobody else knew where we were so none of our friends could come rescue us.

My car seated 2. There were 5 of us. Even if we went to the nearest town and found a wrecker on a Sunday afternoon, we'd have to persuade him to drive most of a mile though someone's field and rescue the Gremlin. Additionally, there was the small matter of (no) money. Essentially 3 of the 5 were going to be in big trouble - with the United States Military. Since I held the keys to the Alfa, I essentially said, "You guys fight it out. I'll take the survivor home with me." There was no way out. I half expected to be carjacked by one of them myself.

Suddenly, literally out of nowhere a camo-painted 6x6 Military Truck comes crashing through the fields! It was LITERALLY a deus ex machina in all senses of the word.
It turned out to be some National Guard unit out on a exercise. God alone knows why there and why on a Sunday afternoon. We never found out. They hooked the winch on the front bumper of the 6x6 to the Gremlin and just dragged it around till it was facing toward the road. We all saluted each other, and they drove off grinning hugely while we all stood in stunned silence. I've never been able to imagine any other vehicle so perfectly suited for that task in that place.

The Gremlin was no the worse for wear ("Hey- it was a Gremlin" ) and we all made it back to work on time.

So, I'm a little tempted to spring for that 6x6 for $4700.... I really needed one once - so it might be worthwhile to have one parked out back just in case I ever need one again!

qbrozen

And, if nothing else, you can go storming around backwoods areas on the weekends looking to perform the work of a good samaritan. You'll become a legend and talked about for generations.

lokki

And every campfire telling of the tale ends:

"Who was that Camouflaged man?"

"They call him "Big Truck" :P

210delray

Great story! Thanks for taking the time to post it.

explorerx4

emissions test and it passed!
still have original plugs, wires.cap, rotor, and fuel filter.
air filter is less than 5 years old, i think.
HC limit 60, result 19
CO limit .32, result 0
NOx limit 700, result 448.
test rpm 2338 (that's pretty fast, i think he was trying to flunk it) :shades:

omarman

I'd be interested in seeing a shot under the hood now.

The old CL ad expired, so I searched and found the same car in a new listing here.

There's an underhood pic now and the seller states that the 400 small block is "NOM" so it's not the original engine.

Still, it does look like Chevy marketed the 402 LS-3 as a "396 Turbo-Jet" in the Chevelle SS models and as a "400 Turbo-Jet" in the non-SS cars for 1971.

gsemike

That's definately a small block

jrosasmc

I wanted to show you this Ebay ad of a '90 Alfa Spider and the seller's ridiculous description of the car. It's so bad it's gotta be seen to be believed - Qbrozen will want to weigh in on this as well:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alfa-Romeo-Spider-1990-Alpa-Romero-Spider-Mint-w-- only-46k-miles_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem1c0bc85cedQQ- itemZ120456764653QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

On a side note, how good are the A/C systems in these vehicles?

lokki

That Alfa Ad IS a smile.....

The Black and Red Leather Seats that look fantastic with the Alpa Romero logo

Is that the one where the Man with a fork is eating a snake?

This makes me wonder a bit.... The exterior was repainted with the original Shinny Red

Finally, the seller's true intentions are made transparent here:

The motor compartment was fully serviced of all minor issues for fast selling!

lokki

As long as we're looking at Alfa's (and I always seem to be)

Decisions, Decisions

Option A?.

or

Option B?

Mr_Shiftright

Oh B without a doubt---no question. The 2600 Spider is grossly overpriced for a barn find. The 2600 Sprint is already done. True the Spider is more valuable but you can find restored ones in the $35K range and up.

Neither car is particularly desirable. The Spider, being rarer and a drop top has the edge but these are relatively slow, heavy cars with hard to find parts.

For this kind of money, get yourself a GTV and be way mo' happy.

My temptation would be to take the Sprint and make a more modern Pro Tourer out of it--keeping it all Alfa of course. If I could I'd shoe horn a V-6 into it from a 164LS, put in vintage AC, and upgrade the braking.

DANGER -- these 2600 Sprints & Spiders are notorious RUST BUCKETS!!

fintail

Hilarious. The name of the car is right on the badge, and people still get it wrong.

His brother has a car for sale near Seattle

jlflemmons

Okay, the thing that jumps out at me in the ad is that if it has been carefully maintained, always garaged, serviced, never smoked in, etc...

Why did it need carpets, seat covers, new top, and new paint in 46K miles?

My xTreme was not cared for, stayed outside, and all kinds of minor abuse, and is all original at 80K.

Mr_Shiftright

OMG! That Benz has a kink in the C pillar----that's not going to be cheap.

texases

"OMG! That Benz has a kink in the C pillar----that's not going to be cheap."

My BIL had a new 335i hardtop convertible, was rear-ended at 10 mph in a parking lot by a confused 80-year-old. Pushed in the rear of the trunk lid about 3"....$40,000 to repair, car totalled! That swore me off those hardtop converitbles (I actually had enough headroom in it ).

fintail

Especially as that car with those miles is maybe worth 5K with no issues...easy total.

fintail

I wonder what the difference would have been with a normal coupe.

It doesn't seem to take much to total a car anymore. My mom's Corolla didn't look bad at all, a lot less brutal than she described it. 13K in damage. I should post the pics, can't remember if I have yet.

qbrozen

Why did it need carpets, seat covers, new top, and new paint in 46K miles?

Exactly my thoughts.

texases

"I wonder what the difference would have been with a normal coupe."

Good question. As I understand it, hitting the trunklid on the convertible got all the folding hardtop mechanicals tweaked. I would think a coupe would have suffered much less $$ damage.

fintail

I wonder if that could be a trend that raises insurance rates for the retractable feature. I think they are pretty cool too.

Here's what 13K damage to a Corolla looks like (no airbag deployment btw):

berri

Despite the relatively good depreciation behavior of Toyota and Honda, if the car is in good condition the parts are worth a fortune so they are totalled by the insurance companies rather quickly. A relatively new one can potentially bring the insurance company more from parts than it pays out to replace the vehicle.

jlflemmons

Yeah, I was at the Honda dealer a few years ago and saw a brand new (<200 miles) Accord coupe in a stall. Had a wrinkled hood and left front fender. Shop foreman pointed out that the strut tower on the drivers side was moved back almost a half inch. No airbag deployment (?) but the car was totaled under the insurance rule for new cars. If the damage was in excess of something like 75% of the cost of replacement, total. Cost to repair was going to be between 15K and 19K. Said just getting that strut tower back where it belonged and properly secured was going to take a whole bunch of time and money.

boomchek

I don't think the wheels on the Alpa Romero are factory either. First time I've seen these types on this car.

I don't get it, he has the correct spelling of the name in the title, but the description is just totally messed up!

boomchek

The Merssedess is a parts car. That's a lot of repair work to breing it up to decent condition.

And speaking of moms, my mom just got into an accident too with her 06 Civic coupe.

A guy cut her off and damaged her right fender, front bumper, right headlight, rad support, busted rad, and hood. No airbags deployed and it was a 30-40mph accident. Damage at $7k. :surprise: Parts are $3.5k, labor another $3.5k

fintail

And as berri mentioned, the car probably has a goldmine left in parts. I am sure that Corolla became useful to someone after it was written off. Funny that the damage added up to so much too, as 13K was pretty much what my mom paid for it. Oh well, it was for the best...the Camry she replaced it with feels like ten times more car, and it was less expensive to boot.

fintail

I am surprised the damage wasn't more expensive. I assume she wasn't hurt, anyway. When it comes down to it, that's all that matters...and modern cars usually do a good job of preventing serious injury.

hondaowner10

I totaled my 05 Accord coupe back in January. Hit a patch of ice and spun off the road into a lightpole backwards. No airbags deployed. Crushed the trunk up to the rear window. Insurance company totaled it out saying it had well over $15k in damage. I only had 33k miles on it too

I got a good payoff from the insurance and used it towards a new Accord sedan.

See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

lokki

Here's a 74 Alfa just like the one that I had....except in a better color. California car that made it to Mass but only a year or so back.... most of the heavy lifting is done already........ What's it worth?

eBay 74 Alfa SpiderProblems

1. I'm in Texas with no way to look at it.
2. Seems odd that someone moved it all the way from California and then only kept it a year.
3. I feel like I'm missing something here......since the bids are so low... what am I not seeing?

I did see the speedo problem, but that's a small issue.

Thanks gentlemen.

NB - Mrs. Lokki is probably going to veto this on all sorts of counts... I'm really more than a year away from serious shopping, but on the surface this looks pretty good.

fintail

Ouch! At least you weren't hurt. I'd say 15K was reached in no time at all - there has to be structural damage in that.