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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think $3500 should be all the money in the world for it. Not a good engine, and not really old enough or interesting enough for car shows----so it's a driver basically.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Salvage title Saab that wasn't in an accident and needs the airbag light reset. Uh huh. Very believable. Price is about right though.

    I like the Blazer's stereo too. Very nicely done!

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The $3800 Saab soon to become the $8000 Saab that is still worth $3800 when you're done.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    A friend of mine in the Cadillac-LaSalle Club has a super-low-miles 1983 Sedan DeVille. It only had about 13K miles on it when he bought it. It's up to around 21K now. He babies that car and drives it very carefully. They made some significant improvements on the 4.1 by 1985, but I still wouldn't trust it. Shame, as I wouldn't mind an 1984 or 1985 Eldo convertible if it weren't for that boat anchor of an engine.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Wouldn't it be easy enough to drop a crate smallblock in one of those? Certainly looks like enough room under the hood. Or would the FWD be an issue?

    When I see those Eldo convertibles, I think of an episode of "Who's The Boss"...and that's kind of scary :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It probably wouldn't be much of an issue to drop a smallblock in a DeVille or a Fleetwood, but I don't know about the Eldo or Seville. I imagine somebody could do it regardless of the FWD configuration, but all that effort wouldn't be worth it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Yeah, I can't imagine many people making a labor of love out of an 84-85 Eldo.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Wouldn't it be easy enough to drop a crate smallblock in one of those? Certainly looks like enough room under the hood. Or would the FWD be an issue?

    I think you'd have a problem dropping a Chevy crate engine in one of these cars, because of the bolt pattern on the transmission. And being FWD, I don't think there would be a transmission that could easily swap in. Maybe there's some kind of adaptor kit though, that would let you bolt up a Chevy engine to a B/O/P/C transmission?

    And then there's the issue of that transmission. It's a version of the THM200-R4, modified for FWD use. The THM200-R4 is not the beefiest transmission in the world, although it was used in some pretty big cars such as the B-body wagons, Lemko's Brougham, etc. And the Monte SS, Buick Grand National, and Olds 442 used a beefy version of it. It probably wouldn't be able to handle some modern crate motor, but maybe it could be built up somewhat?

    Now one swap that could be fun, if it's feasible...a 472 or 500 out of one of the older Eldorados. Just get the engine and transmission, too. Those older ones used a version of the THM400 modified for FWD use, and could probably handle just about anything you throw at them. Just imagine the front-wheel burnouts you'd be able to do with something like that! :P
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    Maybe in this corner of the country, those cars have more of a following

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    classic. That thing would be like a Rolls in Hackensack, no doubt
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Those 79-85s seem to have huge hood areas, there has to be a lot of room between the wheels. That older Eldo-Toro swap might be something. FWD burnouts in a malaise Eldo would shock the hell out of people - but I bet you'd really need to reinforce the structure too, especially if it was a convertible.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,737
    OH, come on now! There ain't no way that's in Jersey. They're drinking Heineken. That's WAY too hoity-toity for us!

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    1970 Chevrolet Chevelle SS 454 LS6 on ebay

    Not running and missing (at least) the original M-22 4-speed and carb.

    Seller claims matching numbers for everything else. Includes original heads and intake, build sheet and some photo evidence.

    My eyes are drawn to the pic of the front end. It just looks like original 1970 era Detroit muscle gone to seed...except...no hood pin locks.

    Didn't this car come from the factory with hood pins? In my senior year of HS there was a Chevelle SS 454 for sale near me that was optioned just like this barn find except it had an automatic trans. And it had hood pins.

    Strange thing to remember, but anyway...

    Assuming my memory is defective and the barn find Chevy is original and correct and missing only those pieces noted previously...what's the verdict?

    What is it worth as-is and could it be restored at a cost which wouldn't be far beyond the market value for one that's already done?
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well he has a build sheet, amazingly enough, and that's a BIG DEAL, regardless of the missing transmission.

    I'd say the car is really worth about $32,000...maybe $35K and that there is room to break even on the deal.

    In show condition with the build sheet and if he can scare up a period transmission, he should break $100K on a resale.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    This Chevelle owner is smoking crack, or something he found in the barn with this car. That's over the top money for this rough dog. Okay, I'll yield to shifty on the valuation, but I wouldn't touch this one. The first thing that strikes me is why do you tear down the engine, and then leave it open to rust?

    Saab with salvage title and needs airbag reset, no accident? And just how long was it under water???
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    I thought that the interior door badges were supposed to say SS. I love the 70 Chevelle SS but am surprised that's goen as high as it has.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They are worth a lot of money, and he does have a build sheet. I'm basing my valuation on that being true and the engine being absolutely correct and provable.

    If a car is worth $$$, you can drag one out from the bottom of a lake...we're talking a pretty rare car here. There are other Chevelles that are a dime a dozen. Whole different ball game here, less than 4500 LS coupes AND convertibles combined in 1970. Given the usual ratios of coupe to convertible, we could safely say that there were about 3500 LS6 coupes built. And given the ratio of automatics to 4-speeds in normal production, there would have to be no more than a few hundred LS6 coupes with 4 speeds. And given the survival rate some 40 years later, there can't be more than a handful of LS6 coupes around these days.

    Check it out---here's another:

    http://www.macleanclassics.com/1970ls6chevelle.htm
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,687
    he has a build sheet, amazingly enough, and that's a BIG DEAL

    That's interesting. Is that the case for any classic car, or only the exceptionally rare ones?
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Well, of course that one is worth more. It was built in Texas! :P

    But it does seem odd to me that for such a perfect vehicle, the sway bar bushing is completely shot. In one of the pictures you can see it. Just odd to me that such a simple repair wasn't done? I am such a cynic on these things I can't help it. Like why would you buy such a car, that has been through several owners (per the ad) and it wasn't driven? Were these previous owners that forward thinking to buy a car for $4K 39 years ago, knowing it would be worth $125K in 2009? And a Chevy, at that?

    I dunno, I guess I just answered my own question on how I don't make money in the stock market. :confuse:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually if you had put $4K into stocks 39 years ago, you'd probably be much better off than having invested in that Chevy---think of all the repairs it has had, storage, insurance, gas, tires, etc. There's $20K right there. And of course restoring this present LS6 to show standards is going to cost you $50K easy if not 2X that should you run into massive rust or missing precious parts. On some rare muscle cars, an air filter housing can cost you $4000 bucks!

    BUILD SHEET -- yes, it matters on any car that is truly collectible. It doesn't have to be "rare" particularly. But on the other hand, a build sheet on a 1985 Eldorado is meaningless to value. Build sheets only matter when we need to verify a very a) rare and b) MAJOR option.

    If your build sheet specifies a 427/435 engine, that's good. If it specifies the illuminated right side pink sun visor option, that hardly matters.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    That sway bar bushing does look a little funny. Also, those suspension components look kinda funny to me, like they were painted with a spray paint can or something?

    And it strikes me as a bit odd too, that someone would buy a car like that, and then not drive it. Although I wonder that about most ultra-low mileage cars...like when I see an 11,000 mile 1983 Skylark for sale at Carlisle, it makes me think WTH! Or even my buddy with the '78 Mark V. It only had around 12,000 miles on it when he bought it in 2005...and this was a car that cost around $18-20K new! Who blows that much on a car and then just lets it sit?

    At least that Chevy beat inflation, though. I guess $4k in 1970 would be the equivalent of around $24K today. So if that one actually fetched $125K (I doubt it), that's a pretty nice return!

    In contrast, my buddy's '78 Mark V, if it was $18K new, would come out to around $54K in 2005, when he bought it, adjusted for inflation. And I think $18K, or maybe a little less, is what my friend paid for it. So if someone was holding onto this thing for investment value, they got screwed! I guess my friend might have too, but at least he drives it around and has fun with it.

    I'd be curious to know what that '70 Chevelle actually went for. I'm sure having the THM400 tranny would hurt its value a bit, compared to a 4-speed. And while I like that shade of green, I know green can be a hard color to sell. Would it really matter with a car like this, though?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I remember sometime in the early-mid 90s a hoard collected by a Ford dealer was unveiled - I believe he had stored them in a dry basement, and they were as-new, I believe having no more than a few hundred miles apiece. Each year in the 60s he put away a couple big block cars, many 427s among them, and 406s in the earlier cars - Fairlanes and Galaxies. Some people connected to the trade did have some foresight.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,687
    Thanks for replying on that; good to know. I have all that info for my '69 C20: All in the glove box, right where I found it twelve years ago. Not that it is rare by any means, but who knows in another 40 years...
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,687
    Wow. That does look well-done! I like that he kept the "sleeper" look, but also focused on quality and safety of the build. A car like that (with all those qualities) is pretty rare. For the price, I'd be tempted were I in the market.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That's pretty crazy. You'd be able to impress a lot of people for not a ton of cash.
  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    Shifty,
    I am looking at a tired but unusual BMW M635CSI (Euro M6) that was imported by Hardy & Beck in 1985. H&B were also the US West Coast distributors for Alpina at the time. This car was modified by (H&B and possibly Dinan) with the addition of a turbo and intercooler. My question is how much value, if any, does the Hardy & Beck connection (and Alpina by extension) and the addition of the turbo add to the value of the M635CSI?
    Thanks
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    i was expecting a 302. that builder was truly crazy.
    interior looks stock.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's unclear from your message if this is merely a hot-rodded Euro 635 CSi two-valve sohc motor, or a genuine M6 M88 engine, 4-valve factory hot-rod. This latter car would have ABS braking, and big fat 15inch alloy wheels. I rather doubt they would turbo an M88 motor, but really I don't know for sure.

    It is an interesting car, but be careful. It will need DOT/EPA papers to prove its legality in the USA. I wouldn't buy it without those documents; also value will be affected by the fact that it cannot be sold in any state with mandatory smog inspections, so that leaves out California (whether you have EPA/DOT or not).

    I'd say regardless of what it actually is, it would have appeal to a very limited audience of BMW fanatics, so that's a plus if one could find the right buyer---on the minus side, if it's tired and needs lots of mechanical and body work (I already know it's rusted behind the front wheels), the cost of restoration is not justified by the car's value.

    and if it has metric tires, you'll need new standard size tires and new wheels, as buying replacement metric tires will shock you in terms of expense.

    I'd be more inclined myself to fix up a U.S. spec M6, since it doesn't have the onus of "gray market" on it, or the problems associated with after-market hot rodding.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Hmmm I think it's cool when someone collects a bunch of cars and puts them away for many many years.

    I like doing that with my model cars since I don't have the space for them. When I was moving I "discovered" stuff I thought I never had, all unopened in boxes.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That LS6 on eBay sold for $31,500. Just about what I thought. :)
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,737
    FYI. On those autotrader ads (and cars.com, too), you can cut the web address off after the car id number (before "&dealer_id") and it still works.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That Chevelle has to be much nicer than it was when new.

    The BMW would be a real maintenance object, but cool as a period piece. I still remember when I was a kid, someone a few blocks away had an Alpina tuned 5er that interested me, I think it might have even been a Euro car.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    That LS6 on eBay sold for $31,500. Just about what I thought

    I just saw that myself. Until your reply I had no idea what a car like that would bring if it needed everything.

    And the weight of documentation is beginning to sink in to me now. A $$$$ documented "project car" must be (a) originally built with all the "right stuff" and (b) have the potential for show restoration within the limits of market price for other documented cars like it.

    Seems like a cheaper muscle car clone project with NOM parts and pieces might be too expensive when you consider how much may be lost at resale without a solid provenance.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Interesting story on that pricey Malibu----how odd though, that in the course of what must have been a big bucks restoration they could do such a lousy fit on the front seats.

    Rare car, especially for an American car, where production limited to the 100s is very unusual.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I guess if I was running some museum and had to have that particular Chevelle, I guess...but to never be able to really drive it without taking thousands off the 'value', I don't think so. I really like that 535i, it seemed to be the full development of the 528i and an antidote for the weak-kneed 528e. But would I buy it? hmmm...I'd at least like a test drive.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    "That Chevelle has to be much nicer than it was when new. "

    LOL, that is the same thing I was thinking! Someone did a really, really nice job on that Chevy.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's a real wake up call to carefully inspect a totally original 60s car---the built quality is not very good, and ironically, it could never compete with a restored car. Lots of dripping glue, orange-peel, overspray everywhere, atrocious body panel fitting, door gaps and sloppy welding.
  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    Shifty,
    Thanks for taking a shot at my question here are some more details:
    The car is a genuine Euro M6 with the M88 engine. It has the EPA/DOT documents and met the California standards at the time of importation - 1985. Hardy & Beck, the importer, was well known for their Alpina conversions back in the 1980s. Road & Track did articles and road tests of their BMW Alpina conversions. While I am familiar with their work from reading R&T and other contemporary automobile magazines I have never read anything about this type of conversion. The seller asserts that this is a one of kind prototype for the turbo system with collaboration from the BMW factory, Hardy&Beck, Alpina, and Dinan but I have not seen any documentation to collaborate those assertions, thus far.
    When I wrote that the car was "tired" I did not mean that the car needed body work as that is in good shape. The car has 115k miles but they were not accumulated gently. The previous owner did not lavish money on maintaining the car but he did lavish money in pimping it out with 20" chrome wheels and a monster stereo system that takes up the entire trunk and has exposed wiring in the cockpit and the engine compartment.
    Mechanically, it runs but the engine has an undiagnosed miss. I know from owning a mid 80s BMW 7series that this car could consume copious amount of money just to bring all maintenance and repairs to date.
    I am trying to put a value on this car but it is difficult because of the turbo and the seller's assertions. If this was a plain M6s and in very nice shape I think it would be worth somewhere in the mid teens. But since it is not a plain M6 or in very nice shape I don't know what to think.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I would stay far away from any 1980's-era 'one of a kind prototype' for a turbo engine conversion, especially on such a highly - tuned engine as the M88. That would require extensive development, not something anyone could afford to do on a one-off prototype. High grenade potential, even if they did everything right. Who knows how it's been treated in the mean time. Add in 'undiagnosed miss', and I wouldn't touch it!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I'd be thinking parts car/project car money for it...maybe a marginal premium over a similarly neglected NA-spec M6, but not a lot.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay, that's a clearer picture. I agree, the car sounds bogus. No documentation? Then the seller's got nothin'.

    I'd say a totally original M6 would be worth a good deal more than this car---yes, mid teens to perhaps $18K for a stunner.

    This sounds more like the typical 1980s "boy racer" modded car. The very idea of a turbo on the M88 sounds scary---what if it's damaged. That's not an easy or cheap engine to work on.

    You know, back in 1985, 300 HP was really something. Today there are probably any number of far more humble cars that can slap it silly.

    I guess if he came up with real documentation, then this car might appeal to a collector who needs "one of everything" to fill out his Team BMW baseball card collection, but me personally, I'd stick to putting money into a car where you might get some out---like a stock M6.

    Tuned BMWs have traditionally done very poorly as collectibles anyway.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    .....love the creative headliner repair. Body looks pretty straight, and the engine sounds A-OK. Wonder what it'll fetch.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd say it's worth maybe $500 to $750.

    It's kinda rough, it's a 4-door, and it's from the Dark Years. Not a great resume for collectability. It would be better to buy a nice one if you like them. I'd imagine you could score a show car for $4000 or so.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    .....the engine was optional, but otherwise it's a lower-line, kinda plain jane type, which doesn't help much, either. I think Andre paid $500 or less for one of his, IIRC.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I'd think about $350 or so for that Newport is fine. Andre's $500 NYer looks a lot nicer.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Seller's asking $1000--dont' hold your breath. Highest bid is $365 and stalled there.
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