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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    TR6 -- seems too cheap. Wonder what's up?

    66 Mustang Coupe -- if you have to completely restore a Mustang like this, why pick a coupe? A fastback or convertible costs no more to restore. Maybe if the coupe had p/s and AC it'd be an okay deal.

    71 Beetle Convertible -- death traps make me nervous.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    That Mustang - "90% complete" 90% of what? One wheel??
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    TR-6 Too Cheap - yeah, have to wonder what the scam is there -

    If that was in Dallas, I'd be out to see it tonight with a check book, back-up, and a loaded shotgun.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    could be a rust-bucket/salvage or have a Pinto engine with an automatic in it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    what would be a reasonable price for a pristine-looking 1983 Olds 98 coupe with 33,000 miles on it? I know someone who's up in Carlisle right now and saw it for sale. It's kind of a light brown/champagne color. Thick velour interior. No sunroof. I'm presume a 307 V-8.

    Asking price is $10,500, which, as Carlisle prices go, doesn't sound too extreme. Back when the economy was stronger, I could see some buffoon having the guts to put a $15K or more pricetag on it! I'd guess more like $7-8K would do it though? Or is even that too generous in today's market?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,427
    Not my sphere of knowledge, but I was thinking around 5K unless it is absolutely assembly-line flawless, then maybe closer to 7-8...but it would have to be literally a 95+ point car.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,725
    fin, i had the same thought as you.
    big coupes are not the rage.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Maybe not the rage, but with reasonable maintenance, those beasts are dang near bullet-proof. One of the last of the Oldsmobiles where everything was over, or at least correctly, engineered. I have seen lots of those way north of 100K miles and going strong.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Maybe not the rage, but with reasonable maintenance, those beasts are dang near bullet-proof.

    How was that THM200R4 by 1983? I know it was troublesome in its first year or two, about as flawless as an 80's transmission could be by 1985, but I never knew about those "in between" years, like 1982-84? There was a guy in one of my Mopar forums talking smack about a 307 and how much beefier a 318 is, and I was about to say something...until I read a little deeper and saw he was talking about a Chevy 307! :P

    One of the last of the Oldsmobiles where everything was over, or at least correctly, engineered.

    I heard that the 1983 bumpers, while they look identical, are much stronger than the 1984 bumpers because they were built to a 5 mph standard, versus 2.5 mph. If the standard dropped for 1984 though, I guess that would hold true for most cars. Still, it seems odd to make the effort to change the bumper in the final year that a car is in production. Especially when these cars went into the 1984 model year sort of at the last minute, when GM realized they were going to be late bringing the FWD C-bodies out. Unless the change was just something simple, like leaving out a part?

    If I could find one of these things in a pretty Jadestone or similar color, I'd probably be all over it! I know you could get that Jadestone on Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Chevies (don't think you could on Cadillac though), but to me it just seems like a "classic" early 80's Oldsmobile color.

    **Edit: I just found out that the car is actually a 1981, not a 1983. Dunno if that would affect the value much, but in 1981, in addition to the weak 4-speed automatic, they had the added "bonus" of the ECU down in the passenger-side kick panel, and those things tended to fry in the early years. My grandparents' '82 Malibu wagon went through two of them, prompting them to trade it for an '85 LeSabre. Still, when you're dealing with a car this old, even the "good" years can give you trouble.
  • wevkwevk Member Posts: 179
    "Just out of curiosity, is there any good reason to offer a high-compression engine with a 2-bbl carb?"

    Better throttle response?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yes I think $4500 is about all the money in the world. This is not a car anybody wants---so that's good for someone who does want it!! $10K is crazy money IMO. Market research does not support anything near that.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Not that I want the car that badly, but I'd almost be tempted to offer the seller $4500 to see what happens! My only problem is that when someone is that far above the price I want to pay, I don't know how to even engage the conversation with them!

    Sometimes if you wait until Sunday, or even Saturday evening, they'll start slashing prices and are willing to deal if they really don't want to take the thing home. Plus, this is the last really big swap meet, other than Hershey which is next week, so if they don't sell it soon, they're probably stuck with it until April.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,427
    I thik they'd be dumb not to give that offer some thought. In this economy, big malaisey domestic luxobarge coupes aren't going to attract a bidding war. Very good for the fans of those cars. Who knows when people will be free spending enough to create huge prices again - if ever.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Andre, a car like that, priced more than double over market is NOT really for sale. If it was for sale, the person would have done some basic research and come up with a realistic price. They are trolling for an uninformed or highly emotional sale (grandpa died in an '83 Olds, etc.) and they may get lucky and get it. Just don't let that sale be YOU.

    One or two extreme highs don't make a market.

    A realistic asking price would have been $5995. That's right about at Kelley Blue Book "excellent", and KBB is the notoriously high book in the collector car industry. So if he's almost double the fanciful KBB "excellent" rating, he'd have to justify that by presenting a 100 pt restoration. That means flawless. That means without defect of any type. That means better than new.

    And even then--LOL---$10K seems high.

    It's a '98. It's not a Hurst/Olds.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    So, if I ever found some old overpriced car that I REALLY wanted, how would be the best way to engage dialogue? I know just saying "will you take $4500?" isn't going to get me anywhere. "A little over-priced, dontchathink?" is probably going to piss the seller off.

    I actually did run into a problem like this a couple years ago. I found a 1977 Catalina for sale. It was a dark forest/jade type green which I believe was called "Berkshire" that I simply love...although it was getting weak on the hood. It also had a 350-4bbl, which was one of the better engines. The only step up was a 400 (403 in CA). It had a light brown interior, and was fairly basic....solid bench seat, crank windows, etc. Seller wanted $2400 for it, and I guess I was just a little jaded as a few months before I had only paid $500 or a '79 New Yorker that was a much more loaded, luxurious car, and in roughly comparable condition. I guess I might've been willing to go $1200-1500 tops.

    But when I talked to them and they came back with that price, I just said "I'll think about it", and just never called them back. Well, lo and behold, this same car showed up the following year at the same car show, a local show in Rockville, MD. This time someone different had it. Before it was an elderly couple, but this time it was a guy who was maybe in his late 50's/early 60's. He had it on the show field, but said he wanted to sell it. Said he'd take $3,000! :surprise:

    FWIW, here's a pic I took of the car...
    image

    So, my guess is that I'll see it at Rockville again in a few weeks, but this time whoever has it will be wanting $3500-4000!

    But it's just that when someone has a price that's so far off like that, I don't even know how to counter. Any advice?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the Catalina wasn't so out of line because in America in the 21st century, anthing that starts runs and drives and isn't smashed up and rusted is worth $2000. It's still transportation in other words, and a '77 car is modern enough to get around just fine day to day. You don't collect a '77 Catalina, you drive it.

    As for engaging in dialogue with a very overpriced car---well, not much you can do until the car starts to rot in the seller's driveway----as he sobers up, he begins to drop the price. So how do you fit in?

    What I do is politely write an offer on the back of my business card---this is telling the buyer "I am ready to buy at this price". He may scoff at the time but I bet he won't throw the card away. In 6 months, that card might start to look fairly attractive.

    Of course, for this to work your offer has to be 1. fair and 2. sincere. --- and you have to figure out how to convey the fairness and sincerity of it in your own diplomatic way.

    Someone may indeed by the car for $10,000, and in that case just be glad it wasn't you.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,427
    I'd say $1500 for that beast would be a fine deal, and even the original asking price wasn't bad. Of course, that depends on how it runs and drives. It looks pretty decent, other than the tired paint. How many miles were on it? And why does it need a wooden block in front of the front tire on a level looking grass field?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I can't remember now how many miles were on the car now, but I want to say around 70-80K? It was solid and seemed rust-free. The interior was pretty nice, although the front seat was a little worn. That field is actually pretty steep, but because of the way I angled the camera it might make it look more level. They make all the people in that show block their cars. Here's a pic of my LeMans from a couple years ago, in that show...
    image

    Maybe I should've made a serious offer on the car when I saw it back in 2007, I guess. I think I just got it in my mind though, that after paying $900 for one New Yorker and then $500 for another, I wasn't about to pay several times that for what's basically an equivalent type car. But, just as one $10,500 Olds 98 doesn't set the market, I guess one $500 New Yorker doesn't, either!

    My financial situation had also changed drastically between October 2007 and October 2008. In October 2007, I had a feeling the economy was going to tank soon, although financially I was at an all-time high. By October 2008, my portfolio was probably down about 40%, and on top of that had just sunk a ton of money into a heat pump and electric upgrades for the house, and was in the process of sinking a ton of money into the convertible. So if I was reluctant to part with the cash for that '77 Catalina a year before, there was no way in hell it was gonna happen in '08!

    I am curious to see if that car shows up again this year, though. And see what kind of financial situation I'm in...mentally at least. :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,427
    Maybe you didn't make a bad decision when it comes down to it - sooner or later you are going to have to thin out the herd or build another garage. That will make the expense of another car look like nothing! :shades: And I am sure you can't forget, you have a DeSoto that's begging to be put back on the road.

    I think your $500 NYer is an anomaly, yeah - it looks better than just about every other $500 car I have seen. If that big Pontiac could be had for $1500, it would be fair. I wonder if the paint could be polished up.
  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    Hi Andre,
    For me the car buying negotiations is one of the most enjoyable aspects of car collecting but it can also be one of the most annoying. Early 2008 I saw an ad in CL for a 1977 Mercedes 450SEL 6.9, a car I have long wanted, for $1200. I called the seller and I liked what he had to say about the car so I told him I would call him back and arrange a visit since he was about 100 miles away from where I live. As it turns out I accepted an assignment out of state for several months and did not have the opportunity to see the car. During the intervening year I continued to see ads in CL for the car but now the asking price was $3500. Six months ago the asking price was down to $1200 and I decided to call the seller and made the trip to see the car. The seller was very personable and I enjoyed the conversation but the car was ROTTEN and only good for parts. I offered him $400 and he graciously declined my offer. Today the car is still for sale on CL for $3500.
    A more recent ad in CL offered a 1982 Mercedes 300SD with 140k miles for $17,000. I thought this was a typo so I contacted the seller and asked him if it was indeed a typo. He quickly replied and said no that $17,000. was correct and what a wonderful car it was blah blah... How do you deal with such insanity the answer is you don't!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, if they act like that curmudgeon with the 1977 T-Bird at Carlisle or that knucklehead at Hershey with the 1970 Coupe DeVille, I know how to engage them, but I can't describe it here without being banned!!! :mad:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    In this economy, big malaisey domestic luxobarge coupes aren't going to attract a bidding war

    Unless andre and I really really want the same car!!! :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, if my wife really wanted me to sell the Brougham, I'd price it at some ridiculous price and say, "Gee, honey! The economy's must be really bad! Nobody wants to buy my '89 Brougham at the low low price of $40,000!" :P

    Thing is, I actually HAVE seen nice Broughams selling for prices like $14K!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,427
    Rotten 6.9 - yeah, maybe good for some parts. People see an old MB and some think it must be worth a fortune. I have had strangers tell me my fintail must be worth 30K or more - and when I tell them what it is really worth, they are in disbelief.

    There's no such thing as a $17K 140K mile 300SD. For that kind of money, it should have 1K miles, with all maintenance up to date.

    A local new car dealer has a "low miles" 560SEL for something like 11K. It can't be nice enough to warrant that money.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,427
    There was that one that brought 30K+ not long ago on ebay.

    I think some of those jerky ones bring cars to shows at high prices, to get in fights with people they see as lowballers. Almost a form of debate.

    Lemko, you and Andre should team up with low bids to drive prices down. Then you can have a fleet of 70s mastadons :shades:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Unless andre and I really really want the same car!!!

    Uh, yeah...if either of us ends up in the market for another old car, maybe we'd better coordinate with each other first? :shades:

    One car I do keep kicking myself over is that blue 1980 New Yorker we saw at the Mopar show back in 2006. 34,000 miles, leather interior, looked almost new, and I think they were asking $4300. The car didn't wow me as much at the time because it just had the 318-2bbl, choked down to 120 hp that year. But thinking back on it, damn that was a nice car! And it's not like I'm buying one of these things to go drag racing, anyway!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Lemko, you and Andre should team up with low bids to drive prices down. Then you can have a fleet of 70s mastadons

    Hmm, that's actually a good idea. Like tomorrow, when we're at Carlisle and see that $10,500 Olds 98, maybe Lemko could go over and offer the seller $3500. Then awhile later Grbeck could look at it and offer the guy $3000. And then, later in the day, when the guy's getting desperate, I could walk up and offer $4000.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I kinda like this '76 4-door sedan. Looks like it's pretty well-equipped for a Catalina, with a dressed-up interior, power windows/locks, and a tilt wheel. And I'm impressed that it has a 3.42:1 axle ratio. GM tended to slip a loafy 2.41:1 axle in most of these cars, but I guess they still had a few decent optional ratios. Still a fairly weak engine, about 180 hp if that 400 is stock, but the gears might still help it out some. My LeMans has the 2.41 axle, and when I stomp on it I can tell that engine WANTS to go...but the gears just won't let it.

    My biggest concern, I guess, would be how good that repaint looks in person, and what kind of flaws it might be hiding. If I was going to get one of these big B or C-bodies, I'd really prefer a hardtop, but in later years they were harder to find. Oddly, in 1975-76 the Catalina sedan was pillared while the coupe was hardtop, but in the Bonneville line it was just the opposite.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,737
    Stickguy, I emailed the owner of that 240 in MD. He sent me pics, then posted them on SS.
    Looks pretty good for the money, I think.

    Its quite tempting to drive down there, but I doubt I could get the wife to do that right after driving out to PA tomorrow to sell her truck.

    Downside to that 240 is that he ditched half the AC system. Says receiver/dryer and condensor are gone and the lines are "capped with duct tape."

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,377
    saw the pics earlier. Doesn't look half bad, and you would be the only guy on the block with an old brick that has a Recaro racing seat in it.

    I hardly use the AC unless the windows fog up, but it can be an issue if this is to be a DD.

    Still, at the price for a beater? Part the thing out and turn a profit.

    Also, you making the trip to Devon to unload the XC? Too bad I can't justify it, otherwise I could save you half the drive and $4.00 for the bridge and take it for the same price!

    THere is a '67 1800s up on SS now. That, I want. Too bad it is in CA. I would be happy to dump my accord to pick up something like that, and keep the Acura as the "real" car

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,737
    Well, 73 miles ain't bad. And it was real nice of JRL to pass my info along. I was quite surprised to get the call from Keystone. And I get to check out the T5 JRL has, too. He's still pondering buying the XC, though. Wants me to stop by his place first so he can take a look.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,377
    that the '98 T5 or the 2001? I really like the looks of that silver '98 wagon. Let me know what you think of it.

    Been to his place before? I would sell a kidney for his garage.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,737
    The '98.
    Never been there.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,725
    speaking of beater pontiacs, ;) , i just watched 'The 7ups' today.
    it was an east coast version of Bullitt.
    a lot of the car chase sound track was the same and some of the downhill and chase onto the highway scenes were knockoffs of the original Bullitt movie.
    even had the same bad guy driving a black car.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Town Hall lost a long time contributor and good guy on Monday.

    Victor Monterroza, AKA Mackabee
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Yeah, as I recall, that car chase involved a then-new Ventura coupe and a Grand Ville. And now that I think about it, in addition to the Grand Ville being bad-guy black, the Ventura was green, although it was a really washed out slate-green that looks grayish in certain lights.

    Oh, and yesterday, I had a fond 70's car memory shattered. There was a '75 Caprice 4-door hardtop for sale at Carlisle yesterday. At a quick glance, it didn't seem bad. $2950 asking price (and I'm sure he would've come down considerably), and overall the car seemed pretty decent. Not a top-notch show car, but a good daily driver/beater...the kind of car that tends to catch my eye. Well, first black mark against it...no a/c. Not that it wasn't functioning...it wasn't built with it. I know a/c was still optional, but who buys a car like that with no a/c?! Maybe if it came from far enough north, perhaps.

    Biggest problem though...as big as this car was...121.5" wheelbase, probably about 221" long, and about as wide as you can make a car before the EPA classifies it as a truck. And I couldn't get comfortable behind the wheel! :surprise: The biggest problem was, of all things, lack of legroom, which IMO just should not happen in a car this size. The steering wheel was also too close for comfort. I wonder if a power seat and tilt wheel would have helped much? It does with my '76 LeMans. I remember sitting behind the wheel of a '76 base model LeMans back in 2001 that was for sale locally. It had neither a power seat nor tilt wheel, and I wasn't exactly over-joyed by the seating position.

    Now, I could tolerate this '75 Caprice, but I guess I just had visions of being able to sprawl out with obscene amounts of room. Back in college, I drove both a '72 Impala convertible and a '76 LeSabre 4-door sedan, and don't remember either of them being that tight. So either I grew since then, or my memory's fading. Or, my body just isn't as flexible as it used to be! :sick:

    And, as a more recent memory, I know my '67 Catalina convertible has more legroom up front, so in later years, GM learned how to make their full-sized cars both bigger and smaller at the same time. And then, Ford and Chrysler no-doubt played follow the leader. :blush:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Wow, sorry to hear of Mackabee. He was a good guy.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,971
    but I guess I just had visions of being able to sprawl out with obscene amounts of room

    That is what I miss about most of the old full size "boats". I would be able to throw the cruise on spread out my legs with no center console in the middle. I really miss bench seating. I think the only cars left that way may be the Buick Lucerne, Impala, and the TC/GM/CV and none of those are going to be made much longer.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    This morning I saw a Lincoln Mk VIII LSC in monochrome black and liked the looks of it and with the DOHC V8 in the LSCs it should move as smart as it looks. I wouldn't mind having one of those specially in black. Anyone have any experience with these cars? Any buying tips...etc.
  • toomanyfumestoomanyfumes Member Posts: 1,019
    I don't know if we're supposed to mention other sites but there's some good websites with info on them. One in particular covers Lincolns and Cadillacs.(hint hint). I think overall they're decent cars but it would be a 10-15 year old Ford so expect some small problems.

    The V8's are great motors and last a long time. The air suspension's are problematic, a lot of guys switch out to coils. I know there is an issue with the dual climate control, either the valve or blend door. A lot of guys are buying them, doing some mods to them, maybe an original older one owner would be a good bet.

    I have a Lincoln LS, a friend of mine is a VP for a local chapter of a Lincoln club. He had a meet this year I attended, mostly Mark VIII's, there were some real sharp ones there. We did a cruise out on the county roads, they move out pretty good too.
    2012 Mustang Premium, 2013 Lincoln MKX Elite, 2007 Mitsubishi Outlander.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    That is so sad; he was one of the best here. Only 53 years old, such a shame. My condolences to his family.

    I loved his stories on the old "Inconsiderate Buyers" forum.
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    I had an email "conversation" with him a couple years back... nice guy, very knowledgeable, and friendly. He had been already been diagnosed then... as sad as it is, it's not a surprise.
    May he rest in peace. -Mathias
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    ...is everywhere.

    Givent he size of my town, this is within 3 miles of here:

    http://lansing.craigslist.org/cto/1406298613.html

    I've asked for more information, but how bad are these? Shifty?

    Also, I don't even know if this is necessarily a turbo...?

    Thanks in advance,
    -Mathias
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    That one's not a turbo, they have vents in the front to fhe hood, IIRC. I understand they're lots of fun, but can be expensive to keep on the road.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,737

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    If not a '64 Bel Air sedan, then maybe a 1977 Mercury Villager.

    It's not a minivan or even a cougar really.

    I've never seen one of these before. Must be a Mercury version of the old LTD II station wagon.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    Olds offered a Turnpike Cruising Package back in the 60's which included a 10.5 compression 400 V-8 with 2bbl carb for better MPG at highway speeds.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Interesting.

    I think there was a Mercury model named Turnpike Cruiser in or around '57.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Did you see the Malibu vs. Bel Air crash test the IIHS did???? :surprise:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,427
    If it has no rust and is as nice as it looks, that looks like a decent deal. Big engine, nice colors, unusual...fun hobby car.
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