Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd say $10K minus the body shop estimate.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,069
    I love that car.

    For 10K minus the estimate of getting the damage fixed (which being a cheapskate, I probably would pocket!), I will fly down to B-ham and pick it up, and have a nice drive home. I think I can get there on Southwest!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You could probably find very nice ones right in your neighborhood for that money, without the dents. One has to be careful about a front end push, however so slight it might look--this could be thousands of dollars damage.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,805
    $10k is more what I'd be looking to pay a dealer for one. $9k minus the repair is more in line with private party. (trade in is $7500)

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,069
    Q, if you can find that car, clean with no repairs needed, by us for 9K let me know where to pick it up.

    Oh, I prefer blue, but burgandy and green are fine too. No black interiors. And if you can make it a wagon, doubly good.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    The wagons are tough to find but I like them too. Definitely have a European flair to them.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    well, what is the consensus here? If you weren't going to fix it (or even bother getting an estimate) how much would you pay for it?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Can't say for certain without seeing the damage but given that I can buy them for $10K or so in California with good miles and no damage, I'd say $8000 is all the money here.
    Also it's a stick shift so that's a hit, too.

    Remember, whatever gets you into a car cheap will haunt you when you go to sell.
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,828
    I agree about the damage being a serious hit to the value... just imagine standing next to the car and telling the future buyer how it doesn't matter. good luck...

    As far as the 5sp, I don't think that seriously detracts fromt he value. They have their friends, and are hard to find. Anyone interested in the 5sp will have very few others to choose from. So maybe a $500 deduct, max.

    On a 3-year-old off-lease car, sure that cuts yoru market by 90%, but for an '03 Bimmer, the sissies aren't in the target market anyway ;->

    Cheers -m
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2010
    Well by a "hit" on the transmission, i guess I meant that you cut down your potential buyer base a LOT by having a 5 speed manual trans, so longer to advertise, longer to sell, etc. I always regarded the 5 series as too big a car to row around in a manual transmission, but, as you say, there's always a few people who don't mind. I know it's all perception, but in a large luxury sedan, a stickshift says "cheap" I think, like it was maybe a taxi in Istanbul or something.
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,828
    ...except that the 5 is about as "large" as an Accord.

    I mean from back then, not the huge ones they have now.

    But I get what you mean; it's all a perception thing. I always think of the W123 Mercedes as a "large" car, and the 2.8 liter inline 6 as a "large" engine. Even though in reality, neither was big.

    -Mathias
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,069
    The 5 series isn't exactly a huge car. Probably no bigger than my Accord. And it is a sport package unit (and loaded) so even more appropriate. And there are enough people that want one that it can be sold if needed.

    Besides, if I bought this it would be to keep for a long time, so pretty irrelevant. I would worry much more about spending 35K on a 3 YO one, and trying to selling in 1-2 years.

    as to the damage, it would honestly depend on how noticeable it was as to whether I fixed it now. From the descriptions, it seems to be pretty minor (on the surface at least).

    so that factored in, if it was 2K to make it perfect, yes I would pay $7,500 for it as it sits. And decide later about repairs.

    Personally, I would be happy with a 3 series wagon. Probably a lot more common too.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    One of my friends has a 5-Series of around that vintage. I've ridden in it a few times, and was pretty impressed. For a car that's downright small-ish by my standards, I thought it was pretty roomy and comfy inside. And nice riding, handling car. The ride was firm, without feeling harsh. And, according to its trip computer at least, it got pretty good economy, especially since my friend was dogging the car a bit.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I guess what I mean is it "feels big" in traffic. If it were a Ferrari or Corvette, I wouldn't mind the transmission (even though new Ferraris are pretty much paddle-shifted these days). Besides all that (oh I'm going to get soooo much flak for this)---the manual transmission in the 2003 BMW 5 Series sort of sucks. :cry:
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,069
    I came close to buying a 2001 525i stick new back in the day. I actually liked the shifter, but was not fond of the clutch.

    and to me it just drove like a slightly bigger 3 series. And felt smaller than the Maxima I ended up getting instead.

    I do, however, like the BMW AT found in the 5 series at that point. I just live in fear of getting an older and/or higher mile used car with an AT, given the frightening cost of replacing one!

    Must be the fact that I already own 2 V6 AT hondas, so I have to be prepared for multiple catastrophic tranny failure at any time.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    edited November 2010
    I found the shifter slightly rubbery and a tad vague, just as it was on every other BMW I've driven. The manual transmission didn't feel inappropriate in the 5-series as the whole car pretty much feels like a slightly larger 3-series.

    That brings up a larger problem to me - unless you spring for an M car, from the driver's seat all BMWs seem to look, feel, and drive almost identically. That can be a good thing, but it is making me bored with the idea of getting another. Putting up with all the extra maintenance and repairs it would require in comparison to something like a G35 doesn't seem worth it.

    Maybe a 540i would do the trick. I bet that feels like a hot rod. But then again, my Lexus, albeit automatic, has more horsepower. And it is really reliable.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,805
    geesh! You guys all get afraid to negotiate or what? Yes, $9k should be the private party selling price. Will it be the asking price? Of course not. Can I get it for that price? Who knows. It depends on how informed the seller is and how stubborn they are. If they have shopped it as a trade-in, then they know $9k is $1500 more than they would get from a dealer. At least here in the NE, that is.

    And, like shifty said, those things that kill value now will kill value later. The stick is rare, but for a reason.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I *really* like to drive a stickshift---for this reason I am very averse to rubbery gearshift, balky clutches and the like, and I've spent considerable money on just about *every* car I ever bought to bring the shifting up to a standard I can live with. If I bought a 5 series manual transmission from *that era* I would definitely modify it if possible. I simply could not live with it as it comes from the factory. I hate missing shifts, getting jammed up, or selecting the wrong gearing. No reason why this should be the case.

    Yep, you might not care about a small dent but when you go to sell everyone is going to rub it in your face and grind you about it.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Small update - the car has an accident on the carfax. The owner claims (and it really looks like) the rear bumper cover was replaced and that is all. But still, that is a deduct.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    er.....no, I don't actually believe that. But regardless, let's give him the benefit of my (huge) doubt, and call him as honest as George Washington. That still leaves this black mark on CARFAX, which will cost 25% of the value.

    The only way out of this for you is if the owner has photos of the damage. If not, I'd walk because the car isn't worth more than $7K now.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,069
    7K? Sounds good to me, although odds are the guy will never sell for that (and someone most likely will pay more.

    It also reminds me of why I am always leery when I am looking at used cars.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Shifty,

    The guy is totally honest, but isn't a car guy. He bought a 4runner because the 525i was too sporty for him to handle. I suspect if they had to do a little blending paintwork around the rear end, he'd never know it nor would he care.

    You might be right that the car is worth $7K, but it is really unlikely that it would sell for that. Somebody with a less discerning eye will likely pay him $9-10K.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2010
    I'm not seeing how that's possible, if the buyer looks at the CARFAX and if the seller doesn't have proof that he just replaced a bumper skin. A person can buy these cars clean with no problems for $10K or less, so I'm not seeing how he's going to score $11.8K with a dirty CARFAX. And he has to peddle a 5 speed manual trans, to boot. Or if the buyer doesn't look at the CARFAX, and later finds out that it's dirty, AND that the owner didn't mention that to him, then there's bad feelings.

    I mean, i wish him luck, not his fault probably that he got rear-ended. I'd personally consider him fortunate to get $9K at this point. I wouldn't give him that, because I'll have to deal with the CARFAX thing when *I* sell the car again, with more miles on it.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    That is why I think I've had better luck buying and selling cars closer to $5K. I think that is the point where people start worrying less about Carfax, minor paint work, or a few bumps and bruises. They are more concerned with getting a mechanically solid car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's true. There's a point in a car's life where mileage, CARFAX, etc. just doesn't matter very much. I always have to chuckle a little when people are looking for CARFAX information on a 1988 Isuzu with 158,000 miles on it.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I always have to chuckle a little when people are looking for CARFAX information on a 1988 Isuzu with 158,000 miles on it.

    I, of course, chuckled in the knowledge that the mythical 158K '88 Isuzu exists only in California.

    But, I would agree with you. When looking at used cars in the $8-14K price range, any hint of an accident (or major mechanical repair work) will deduct tremendously.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    edited November 2010
    "There's a point in a car's life where mileage, CARFAX, etc. just doesn't matter very much. I always have to chuckle a little when people are looking for CARFAX information on a 1988 Isuzu with 158,000 miles on it. "

    Drat. There goes the big bucks I was going to get for my 1987 Corolla FX with a clean carfax... :P

    Actually, I think I'm just going to drive it 'till it dies - otherwise the curiosity would kill me, not knowing how long it would have lasted if I sold it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    Actually, I think I'm just going to drive it 'till it dies - otherwise the curiosity would kill me, not knowing how long it would have lasted if I sold it.

    My mom and stepdad have a 1999 Altima with about 325,000 miles on it, and they mentioned giving it to me or selling it cheap to me at one time. It still looks great and runs great, but I can tell you exactly when it would die...about 15 minutes after the title had been transferred to my name!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A car with 325K on the clock is like an 80 year old playing a spirited game of tennis....we admire their pluck, but also hope they make it through the day.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. And I imagine that when the engine or transmission finally goes on the car, it'll be expensive enough to total it. Heck, on a lot of these modern cars, even a bad sensor or computer component or wiring harness can be cost-prohibitive!

    Now I did get my '68 Dart up to around 338,000 miles before the fuel pump went bad and it quit running, and I just let it sit. But on that car whenever something broke, it was usually a cheap, easy fix. And it had gotten a rebuilt engine around 242,000 miles, and a lower mileage, but still used, rear-end soon thereafter.

    Sometimes I wish I had just gotten the fuel pump fixed on that Dart and just kept it in service, to see how long it would have lasted. But at the time that it happened, I didn't have the time or money to mess with it, and sort of lost interest in the car. Interestingly, it died about 2 or 3 months after I got my '79 5th Ave...I wonder if the Dart just got jealous and decided to throw a hissy fit? :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I pretty much got rid of my 1988 Buick Park Avenue over a cam position sensor. To properly fix it would've been $1,500 which was in excess of what I paid for the car in the first place!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,361
    even a bad sensor or computer component or wiring harness can be cost-prohibitive!

    We had an early 2000s Maxima that was a salesman's car here at work. It had over 250K on the clock. It ran perfect, but had a CEL due to some sensors and the cat. converters were shot. It would have cost too much to repair ($1500+) and they sent it to a junkyard. IMO really a shame because it was the driven by the one salesman here who actually kept the car nice. He garaged it too. I was thinking of grabbing it cheap and calling every junkyard around looking for the parts it needed. Of course with my luck I would get it on the road, through inspection and something else would go.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    I pretty much got rid of my 1988 Buick Park Avenue over a cam position sensor. To properly fix it would've been $1,500 which was in excess of what I paid for the car in the first place!

    Yeah, that's one thing I hate about newer cars...they have components that didn't even exist back in the older days, but can still fail and be cost-prohibitive to fix. I'm kinda surprised though, that it would cost that much to get to the cam position sensor on the 3.8. I was always under the impression that the 3.8 was a fairly cheap, simple engine to work on? Well, for a modern-ish engine, at least. A couple years back, my Intrepid started stalling at random, and wouldn't always restart. Unfortunately, there was no computer code for the camshaft or crankshaft position sensors, so I just had the mechanic replace them both. I think the total bill on that one was about $500. Not TOO hideous I guess, but still, no repair bill at all would have been better!

    Hopefully my 2000 Park Ave behaves itself for awhile. It's been a good car so far, but I'm only into it about 11 months and 10,000 miles.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It's where the sensor was located that created the expense. The sensor worked in conjunction with a magnet inside the top end of the engine. The magnet fell off somewhere and the sensor didn't know what to make of it. Picture two guys with walkie talkies and one drops his and breaks it. The other guy doesn't know what's going on. To get at this magnet would've involved removing the top of the engine. My mechanic, a very honest guy, told me it wouldn't be worth the expense for such an old, high-mileage car.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Did your Park Avenue become a parts car for someone, or did you sell or junk it?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Some neighborhood kids were actually interested in it and I sold it to them for a nominal amount. I did disclose to them the problem with the cam sensor. The car was still driveable, but would stall at lights sometimes. The main reason I got rid of it was I feared it wouldn't pass the emmissions test with the CEL illuminated. Sometimes I see the Park Ave from time to time driving down the street. The only difference was the left rear wheel cover was missing.

    I ended up replacing it with a 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis that belonged to my wife's aunt's family. Her aunt's husband had passed away a few months before and the aunt couldn't drive as she was 85 years-old and blind in one eye. Unfortunately, it's afflicted with one of those tacky carriage tops, but I bought it anyway as a favor to my wife's family. I drive it as my everyday hooptie.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    It sounds like a good outcome. A kid in your neighborhood with a limited budget got a well maintained set of wheels, and you got a comfortable, rugged daily driver.
  • martianmartian Member Posts: 220
    Reading these posts, I wonder what the fate of luxo-cars (like Land Rovers and Jaguars) when they get old? A new engine control computer for these heaps can run >$2500, if obtainable.
    Pretty sad when a vehicle that stickered for over $80,000 new, and then worthless because a part is not available.
    I wonder if an industry will spring up (reparing these sealed modules)?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2010
    I think all used Jaguars made in the last 20 years or so will just be junked unless they are pristine survivors in excellent condition.

    It might make sense to put a few thou into grandpa's passed-along low mileage beauty, but it makes no sense to try and restore a car like this anymore. Who "restores" a Ford Jaguar anyhow?

    As for Rovers, maybe if they were utilitarian models with all the jungle jewelry, those might be saved---but the run of the mill "Mall Explorer"---I doubt it.

    In the "old days", 60s Jaguar sedans like the 3.8s, and Land Rovers with all the jungle jewelry on them had tons of character, smashing good looks and were a blast to drive. But now they are more or less anonymous cookie-cutter cars. Caring owners will preserve a few but once they get ratty, I think they are gone for good.

    An aftermarket might spring up if demand were really strong, but I personally don't sense any kind of rabid ownership loyalty with newer Jaguars or Rovers.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    And repairing 'these sealed modules' isn't like rebuilding a carb. It would take lots of pretty specific know-how to do it, and, like Shifty said, where's the market?
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,069
    I know that for later model volvos (the 98-00 S70s for example) there is a place that rebuls the ABS control module, and also possibly the ECM module. I believe a new ABS module is nosebleed expensive, but the rebuilt one is not that bad.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited November 2010
    I think that many of those who buy these cars just don't realize how high the cost of ownership will be. The cost per mile must be staggering. Not everyone who buys these is very wealthy.

    What I don't understand is why sales of these vehicles doesn't tank, but I probably answered that in my first sentence.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2010
    You mean sales of used ones or new ones?

    The new sales don't tank because most people bail at warranty termination, or they are leasing.

    The used car sales definitely show the massive depreciation of luxury cars---which is why they are bought by people who can't possibly afford to fix them. If my friend were to offer me his BMW 750iL for free, I honestly would decline---because i couldn't just sell it after he gives it as a gift, and I'd be terrified to even go 100 miles with it. What if the left cylinder bank # 10 intake valve low pressure variable sequential actuator module died on me? :P On the other hand, I *could* drive it until it broke and then use that as an excuse to sell it---for scrap iron, or parts, no doubt. Nice drivin' car BTW.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited November 2010
    I meant the new ones. I guess it's difficult for me to fathom the depreciation on some of these cars. It seems to me that if you absolutely must have one of these boats, then a well maintained used one is the way to go.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You have a problem with a 16% residual after 5 years? :P
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited November 2010
    Big time. That kind of depreciation would make me cry, especially on something that's so expensive in the first place..
  • martianmartian Member Posts: 220
    So, I gather if you have a 7 year old Jaguar, and it needs $6000 in service/parts, it makes no sense to fix it?Talk about a disster. Now I understand why the Japanese (Lexus, Infinity, etc.) decided to enter the luxury market-the Euros dug their own grave!
    It's like my BIL's experience with his Audi A4-once that car hit 90,000 miles, it needed stuff replaced every month-he was overjoyed when his son hit a log on the highway last month (ripped the transmission case open and totalled the car)-he was so happy to get rid of that money pit. :lemon:
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,805
    I still want a 740. Both the wife and I always admire a nicely kept E38 when we see one.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    740 might be manageable but prepare to be surprised at how many things fall off it. Trim, rubber gaskets, plastic parts.
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