Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

1440441443445446854

Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Nice finds. Alfa could be the best one left in the US, the Lancia has to be up there too. The Audi is cool in its own way as it is so unusual...I could see it going home, they'd love it in Germany and it would be easy to ship from its current home. The Rover...a money pit I'm sure, but that must be the year to have.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,805
    My next door neighbor has a Lancia Scorpion. He brought it over for me to see for the first time a couple of months ago. I was quite impressed with its condition. Not quite as good as that Ebay one, but not terribly far behind.

    I really like that Milano. I'd still rather have a GTV6, but that would be an acceptable substitution. I believe that's the one with the 3.0, which is the one to have.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    Hi Shifty and fellow autoholics,
    I've come across a 1969 Stingray convertible (427/390/4spd) that has been sitting for almost a year in a repair shop. The car looks to be not entirely original: bad re-paint, new interior, aftermarket wheels. I also don't know if this is a numbers matching car. Overall it looks like it could be an entertaining weekend driver. I want to make the owner an offer but I don't have much of a clue what the car is worth. I have looked at Craig's List, eBAy, old issues of Sports Car Market...etc. I read keith Martin's assesment of these Corvattes where he states that only the top three most powerful engines are worth collectiong and that lower power big block are in the same pricing range as the small block engined cars. What I have found is that the range in under 10k for a project to mid 20s for a nice car. Really nice cars and those with the "desirable" engine options can sell for really big bucks.
    Thanks in advance for your help.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    Does it run? Move? In other words, besides the paint and wheels, what's needed to get it in shape, to your specifications?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    well the 390 HP should still be worth maybe 10-15% more than the small blocks but yes, if it's not a 400PH or a 425HP it's not a big bucks car.

    Matching #s is pretty important on any Corvette of this era but that should be pretty easy to figure out.

    There's some confusion on what "matching #s" means. One interpretation is "correct engine for the year"---in that case, the 390 HP will have the suffix "LM" stamped on the right front cylinder head machined pad where the numbers are stored.

    Now, if it ALSO has the last 4 digits of the VIN stamped on the block, it is the *exact* engine the factory put in the car when they built it.

    If it has "LM" but some other numbers, then it's the right type for the year but not the original engine. If it's not stamped "LM", then it might be a 427/390 but not from that year.

    Also the options the car has are important to value, like AC, power steering, and side exhaust, to name just a few.

    I agree, this car seems well under $10K in value. I'd say if you hit it at $5K or so you can't go too wrong. You can always bail at that price.

    The owner has to remember that this is a '69, not a '66--it's a whole other style with a whole other value level (a lot lower) and suffers from some maladies, including overheating of the 427 block and lots of engine heat coming into the passenger compartment.

    The '69s have always been sort of the "poor sisters" and might be a decent investment for the future, presuming you can get in cheap enough so that you're not buried in the car until the grave.

    some *very* difficult parts to find would be convertible top mechanism, the wheel covers and the windshield washer motor.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    People at least seem to think that they're worth more:

    http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/2154544733.html

    http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ctd/2140030327.html

    http://delaware.craigslist.org/cto/2083510597.html

    I guess the devil is in the details? Is it sitting because no one has gotten to it or because it needs loads of work?

    btw: Does anyone else find SearchTempest completely clunky?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the first one is real junk and I doubt he'll see $5K, -- the "nice" one is about market correct, and the last one for $6K...well it all depends on what they mean by "body work".

    69s don't have anywhere NEAR the appeal or value of Stingrays.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,920
    I like that yellow one... it's a transformer! :surprise:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    I don't think it is running, the owner of the repair shop told me that there was a problem with the carburetor (non-stock). I don't know what else needs to be done since I have not gotten a chance todo a close inspection of the car.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    see that's where the "matching numbers" thing begins to shred the picture in my mind's eye: 427/390 hp option which is the oval port, 2 bolt main?, cast crank engine. Good for cruising and works great with A/C and turbo automatic. So far so good...

    But do matching numbers mean so much with a low-option engine just because it's a genuine "big block?" Not sure. It's not the most favored MY Corvette as pointed out.

    One more thing about inspecting the car: Try to get a brutally honest appraisal of its needs from a guy who is NOT a total Corvette fanatic. Seriously. A real Corvette fan can get very optimistic over a title, rusty frame and a pile of fiber reinforced plastic.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yep, for some unfathomable reason "matching numbers" affects the value of any older Corvette. Buyers of $500,000 Ferraris don't care about matching #s, nor buyers of vintage Porsches, but buyers of plastic Corvette slobber all over matching numbers. Go figure! :surprise:

    It's the first thing buyers ask, and the first two words in any Corvette ad.

    If you've ever worked a big block 60s Corvette clutch in traffic on a hot day, you'd yearn for an automatic, too.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Shifty Sez: "Fuel injection is smart; carburetors are stupid".
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    Somebody in Spokane should buy this old boat even though it doesn't look like a project car. But having been driven so little over the years, it may turn into one if put back to regular service. Depends...

    Not a favorite color but still, only $5k for a big old non-SUV for road trips seems like a good deal. Anyone want it?
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Looks like a fine old car but it's overpriced. I think $3500 is all the money here and even a $2750 offer should be carefully considered before turning it down.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    Car prices on the low end especially can vary a lot depending on location. Here, a very clean low mile used car with shiny paint and no rust/dents gets a lot of attention at $4999. Before buying a new car years ago, my wife and I considered buying a budget $5K used car to tide us over before rushing in to buy new.

    God I still remember that doo-dah parade of miled-up misery, rust, dents and needsa-this-anda-that! Maybe it's always like that when you "need" a car as opposed to just looking? We abandoned the used car idea and decided to become frequent rental car customers until we did buy new. We would have stacked cash on the deck of an old barge like that Cadillac if only we could get to it first. But Spokane is a galaxy far far away from Clumbus.

    I will say that it's not a bad deal to drive new/nearly new rentals when new car shopping though. Living with a wide variety of cars over weekends of the work week is a lot more helpful than the typical 10 min test drive at the dealer.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    edited January 2011
    Big type and bold in this 1968 Impala SS ad: NO TIRE KICKERS, DONT WASTE MY TIME PLEASE I AM A BUSY MAN!

    Fair enough, but a few more pics and maybe a link to an image hosting site with even more/better pics may help save everyone a step or two. The VIN seems right but in 1968 the SS package was just an option. And I think Chevy did offer 2 versions of the 427 for Impala that year.

    Wouldn't it be something if this old heap turned out to be a real L72 427/425hp/4-speed car? Even in its tarp-worn condition now, somebody would want a rare car like that. Remember the Baldwin street racer special Biscayne? I always liked the "idea" more than reality though: the relationship between mass, force and acceleration diminishes to a U-haul experience pretty quickly in a big engined, heavy, 4-speed car.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,598
    Those kind of statements in an ad always indicate to me that the seller is someone I probably don't want to deal with anyway.

    That is an Impala Custom Coupe -- I've never seen a SS in that bodystyle.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    Correction: I may have confused the Impala in my earlier post with another 427 Impala (SS with automatic) I was looking at online. The 427 Impala 4-speed seller didn't list it as an SS optioned car. The thought plickens.

    Now I'm really curious about any sort of documentation that may go with the car. Build sheet, etc. Maybe the original owner wanted the most powerful options but with minimal badging, trim, etc? Wish there were more pics. :(
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    True, true, local prices might vary somewhat but when I guess at value I am suggesting what the "market" is---that is, what the vast majority of similar cars will sell for.

    No matter if you were god's appointed values expert, someone could find one sale in one place to prove your prediction incorrect.

    1980s "land yachts" are very hard cars to sell at a premium price. It just isn't happening.

    Also, commenting on the market value of a car doesn't comment on its merits--it is, after all, a market driven by supply and demand, and is not always rational.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Nice car, but yeah, the price could be lower.

    An 87 wouldn't have the much derided 4100 would it?

    Eastern WA is a good hunting ground for clean old cars.
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,828
    edited January 2011
    [..] remember that doo-dah parade of miled-up misery, rust, dents and needsa-this-anda-that! Maybe it's always like that when you "need" a car as opposed to just looking?"

    Amen, brother!
    I've just about given up the whole used-car thing. It's getting more and more difficult to even find cars that are worth looking at... never mind the things you find out when you get there.

    And to answer your question, yes, it's always like that, it just seems worse when you need a car.

    I believe there are a lot of factors to this, but certainly C4C didn't help, and the availability of online valutions like KBB is also to blame. Kelly says $8 in excellent condition, so it's a steal at $7,500!

    Craigslist is a great resource to see what's available, but it also becomes a place for people to see what cars are "going for," which is problematic, since all the ones you see certainly haven't "gone for" anything yet! And since it's free, you know half the people on there are just fishing for a price.

    Add to that the eternal optimism of describing a car's condition -- I probably said it before, but of the 500 or so cars I've looked at in my life, all but three were in "excellent" condition.

    I wonder what it'll take for used cars to come back down to earth, but until things change, I'll be buying new cars and driving them until they're the kind of jalopy I was looking to buy initially. I really prefer driving an older car in good shape to a new one... I don't like to worry about scratches and stuff.

    FWIW, Edmund's valuations make a lot more sense than most other places. But just as an example, my wife's '03 Sienna w/ 125k miles is worth, private party, about $6k-and-change here in Michigan. If I needed one, I don't think I'd find one for much less than $8, at which point it just doesn't make sense to buy used. Funny thing is, the domestics, at least around here, are hardly any cheaper.

    Also, anything that isn't a rust bucket and runs/drives OK seems to be $2,000, even if it has 180,000 miles on it. For me, it's an annoyance, but for people who really can't afford to buy a new car, this is a very serious drag on their finances.
    Of course, we're also entering the crazy time of the year, when income tax returns are coming in and people have $$ in their pockets. "Cheap" used cars instantly shoot up by $750.

    Cheers -Mathias
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    I hadn't even thought about the 4.1 V8 situation so I looked it up on Wiki:

    From 1986 to 1990, the rear-wheel drive Cadillac Brougham used a 5 L (307 cu in) Oldsmobile carbureted V8 (replacing the Cadillac HT-4100).

    Sounds good on paper but it's only Wiki, so I'd want to make sure it was not fitted with one of those early diesel or HT-4100 engines.

    Dark times for Cadillac when they had to rely on a carb-equipped Olds engine even as Lexus was setting up shop in the U.S. market with a $35K LS400. Hmm. Maybe $5K is way too much money for the old boat after all! :surprise:
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,598
    It's true that Caddy used the 307 Olds in those until 1990. Good engine, more durable than the SBC in those sort of applications. But agreed, compared to the competition, it's easy to see why Caddy got left by the side of the road during that era.

    In terms of used cars, it used to be that $500 was the bottom-end price for a running car that could be licensed despite some issues. Now that number is $2000.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,064
    yeah, somehow it seems when you are looking there is nothing good and everything is expensive, but when you are selling you can only get lowballers to show up!

    IMO, the best source is still friends and family. Especially good is finding someone that is buying new, and planning to trade (some people will never, ever sell privately).

    that is how I got my TL 2 years ago. it is a 2000MY, but it did have 145K on the clock at 9 YO.

    but, those were 1 owner miles, single women, mostly commuting, and fully dealer serviced. As in, when the light went on, it went in and it got whatever the dealer said it needed.

    since the owner happened to be my sister, when she decided to buy a new TSX, she offered it to me for what the dealer offered her as a trade. If I had said no, it was getting traded in.

    needless to say, the trade offer was low for a 145k car, even though that dealer had done every service. they offered he 2K, so that is what I paid. I expect that off the street, I would not have found that car for less than 4K.

    heck, 2 years later (just over) and now at 155K. A couple oil change services, and new struts and tires (thanks to my son whamming a pot hole and blowing a strut and tire). Just about 1K more into it, so I am in for a total of 3K, and I expect that I could sell it for that today if I tossed an ad out on craigs.

    Old farmer would probably run down and pick it up himself!

    If nothing else, I have gotten my moneys worth out of it. And still am, since my son has it at college this year, and I am crossing my fingers it at least makes it 2 more years until he graduates.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    It's true that Caddy used the 307 Olds in those until 1990. Good engine, more durable than the SBC in those sort of applications. But agreed, compared to the competition, it's easy to see why Caddy got left by the side of the road during that era.


    The 307 was also a pretty torquey engine. It only had 140 hp, but put out 255 ft-lb of torque, at a low 1600 rpm. In contrast, the 165 hp 305-4bbl put out 245 ft-lb @ 2400. I forget what the 150 hp version put out though, or what the TBI put out, which I think had 170 hp.

    My grandmother's '85 LeSabre had a 307, and if you shifted it yourself, it was actually not bad off the line. It liked to upshift early. And out on the highway, that sucker was a nice cruiser.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    The dealer says this Porsche 356 is in fair condition. I say it is yard art for a farm.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2011
    That 356 is gone, finito, hopeless, done for, dead, defunct....not all the king's horses, or all the king's men, will ever get that one back together again.

    It's worth whatever parts you can salvage off it, which looks like about $250 bucks.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    "condition: fair"

    I love that. I consider my fintail to be in "fair" condition, and it is a complete running roadworthy 98% rust free clean car.

    Fair? That thing looks to be composed of 98% iron oxide.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    This seems like a decent deal on a 1929 Nash. I have no idea what you'd do with it though. Not restore it. I know that much.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Still seems way high. Nobody is restoring these, so a parts car isn't in demand.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,805
    edited January 2011
    Funny. That brought back a memory. Probably about 20 years or so ago, I actually rode in a '29 Nash. Nothing particularly thrilling to me. Not a concours car, but it good enough shape for local shows.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    That reminds me - the Saab convertible I posted a couple of weeks back is on eBay now with a beginning bid in the high 3K range. It lists some issues with the car though. I can't link to it through my work computer.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2011
    Junkyard. On a *good* day, with Reggie Jackson swinging the bat, you might sell a completely restored one for $17,500, and you can't get THERE from HERE for three times that. End of story on that pile o' rust.

    In a poignant way, his ad says it all: "If I had unlimited space I'd hang on to it, but Im really just not done with the Wartburg."

    spoken like a true hoarder of hopeless orphans.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Here is the the Saab. It didn't sell.

    "The technicians noted seepage from the oil pan and timing cover gaskets, all 4 rims need to be straightened, wiper blades, both fog lights, new drive belt, and widshield wipers."

    I imagine all of that is pretty common, just most sellers wouldn't mention any of this.

    Here is a decent looking 2001 Boxster. I know out in Shifty's neck of the woods cheap Boxsters are easy to find, but not so much here.

    "The technician called for 4 tires and the valve cover are seeping." Is seeping different than plain old leaking? Seeping sounds better. The tires look ok to me.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well this could spell some trouble, if it's actually the cam tower seals that are leaking and if the tires are really shot---this could add up to a couple thousand bucks right there easily. If it's the rear main seal + cam tower seals + spark plug tubes and gaskets (common) + valve cover gaskets, that's engine-out time and maybe $6000.

    Being a Porsche/Audi dealer, they KNOW what's wrong.

    This is not a car you want to bid on without sending it off to a Boxster specialist to accurately identify the source of the leak.

    And, like I always say after a Boxster discussion, buy an "S" model so that you don't have a minivan wipe the floor with your Boxster "normale".
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    For $6K in repairs, I think I'd continue to let it "seep" as they say.

    Boxsters are reaching 944/928 land where a couple common repairs can be worth more than the entire car. It makes me like my Miata (even though I can't sit in it with the top up).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2011
    Well you often can't let it seep, because it lands right on exhaust components and creates a hell of a stink, smoke, and potential fire.

    The Boxster is an AWESOME handler--it will pull Gs like you wouldn't believe for a stock car, but unless it's an S model, it is somewhat down on power, given its handling and braking capabilities. It's no slouch but even my MINI can beat one.

    They are very good cars, relatively trouble-free, but it's the kind of car you want to buy in flawless mechanical condition, and that you want to give to Dieter and Hans every 6 months so that they can find, or interrupt, any problems. If that costs you $1200 a year or so for basic maintenance, then so be it.

    I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a Boxster S to anyone as long as they are willing to be completely pro-active on maintenance.

    A 928, on the other hand, will crush the average newbie owner like a bug--that's an even scarier category of car than a normal Porsche. It's old tech, so double the trouble. Prices for parts and labor are shocking. But, a whole lotta car for very little money (at least initially).

    You like zoom zoom big V8 noises? Buy a C5 Vette and be happy, even if parts fall off it.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    How has that MINI treating you? Still reliable?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Just great. Rides like a covered wagon going over bumps, but otherwise no trouble at all. Fun to drive and the car knows how to get out of its own way. I totally whipped a Harley coming out of a toll gate last week. He was so furious I could see him lurching from side to side as he attempted to steer and give me the finger. Such nice people.

    I still get that little screech out of the throw-out bearing for the first 2 or 3 clutch applications when cold, but then it goes away. I'm sure it'll stay that way for a long time yet. Once the bearing gets too noisy, I may elect to put in a lightened flywheel.

    I did put in a CD player with USB interface and now I can both stream Pandora into the car's sound system via my Android phone, as well as play podcasts via a USB flash drive. The whole setup cost me maybe $250 bucks, so it was a good "project".

    The supercharger reduction pulley makes a big difference in power, and I love the whine of the supercharger as it spools up. Most interestingly, the gas mileage actually improved by about 1 mpg. So now I get between 26--33 mpg, but only on premium fuel, and running colder spark plugs.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    an Amphicar sold for over 100k. Second one, i believe.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,598
    I watch the B-J shows, but am always shaking my head when I do. Why would anyone buy a vehicle there? It seems like the single most expensive way to do that, and while many of the cars shown are truly astounding, an awful lot of them strike me as more than a little questionable in either taste, quality, or execution.

    The amount of money being thrown around there just seems bizarre.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    Why would anyone buy a vehicle there? It seems like the single most expensive way to do that, and while many of the cars shown are truly astounding, an awful lot of them strike me as more than a little questionable in either taste, quality, or execution.

    Doesn't B-J tend to be a bunch of rich, drunk old men who have more play money for the weekend than what my lifetime salary will end up being? Or, do mere mortals ilke the rest of us sometimes get swept up in that mess, too?
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,598
    edited January 2011
    Well, there's certainly a lot of booze there now. This year they seem to have really Vegas-ed up the Scottsdale show, with legions of pretty young ladies in evening gowns everywhere, serving drinks, holding signs, etc. And given the prices, you certainly have to be very wealthy (or have a huge debt load) to take part. I am finding it more and more of a turn-off to be honest. It just seems too in-your-face. I guess Rick Hendrick's chain of dealerships wasn't hurt too bad in the recession if he can afford to spend millions on B-J offerings without even a hint of emotion or excitement.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    I did see an interesting interview with someone who had purchased over 100 car at B-J. He had sold over 200!
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    edited January 2011
    It was just noted that Rick H is selling 14 cars. :surprise:
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,828
    January brings out the best in us Michiganders.
    Check out this prize:
    http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/cto/2175120000.html
    Great pics, though.
    ;->
    -Mathias
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    In the first sentence the seller explains everything a buyer needs to know about a used BMW - or apparently any foreign vehicle. :surprise:
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,598
    I read the following verse of poetry in a car mag -- I think, C&D -- shortly after these came out:

    No matter how hard I work
    No matter how long I toil
    I shall never afford
    A BMW 740il

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hmmm...brakes and rotors all 'round for a 740iL at a BMW repair shop should be around $1800. Of course doing it yourself you could do it for 1/3rd that.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.