Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

stickguy

The beauty of american cars of that era is that they rear quarters were pretty much extraneous. Sort of an automotive appendix.

I do remember seeing at least one car like mine where they just shortened them up and capped the bottom.

My first car was a '67 Camaro. Not only were the quarters rusted off up to the body line, the trunk floor ended about 6" before the rear valance. Not a car you wanted to put your groceries in!

andre1969

I remember those rotted away rear quarters. My father had a rivet gun, so we pop riveted some sheet tin of some kind onto it. For some reason they got painted white (on a yellow car) but nothing beyond that. So you could see the rivets I think, but still looked better than nothing.

That's what I ended up doing with my '68 Dart, in the spring of either '96 or '97...can't remember now as it's been awhile. My plan was going to be to spread some bondo along the seam and over the rivets, and smooth it out and paint it, but it never got that far.

I remember my great-uncle doing a similar thing to his '74 Impala when I was a kid. I guess I could take some solace in the fact that the Dart was almost 30 years old and had over 300K miles on it when I did this to it. My uncle gave that Impala to a neighbor in 1984, who wanted the 400 V-8 out of it. And at that point, it had been a few years since he had done that rivet work, so those original quarter panels didn't even last 10 years!

hpmctorque

...a retired engineering excec from Ford Motor Co. last Friday. Ed once reported to Lee Iacocca and knew Henry II "The Deuce." Of course we were talking cars (his daily driver is a pristene '05 Jag V8 S-type. In the course of conversation he asked me what was the single most significant advance of the late '70s and '80s. "Oh, I don't know; fuel injection," I guessed. "No, as important as that was, the most significant improvement was the widespread use of galvanized steel," he responded. "Just think of all the cars that were destroyed by rust," he reminded me. Of course, fuel injection may have been more significant for those who lived in a dry, salt-free climate, but, on balance, Ed was probably right.

andre1969

On the subject of cars and aging, I remember my grandparents' '72 Impala was looking pretty bad by 1982, when they sold it. Rusted out quarters, lower front fenders, and the vinyl roof had shredded. In contrast, their '85 LeSabre which we had until 2002, was really only bad in the rear bumper. The bumper was rusting from the inside out...looked pretty bad, actually, if you got up under it and looked, but from the outside, it was just starting to discolor the chrome.

I think the Impala still had fairly shiny paint when they got rid of it after 10 years. It was a dark forest green metallic called "Sequoia" I believe. The LeSabre was a dark gray metallic, and started to fade on the hood by the time it was around 10. By the time it was 17, the hood had lost all of its luster, and the trunk was pretty faded, too. The sides still looked good, though.

I wish my 2000 Intrepid hadn't gotten totaled when it hit the age of 10, because I was really curious to see how it would age. At the time, its silver paint was still nice and shiny, and there was no rust, even in places where it had stone chips and scrapes, and a couple dents. Most of the blackout trim around the windows and such was starting to fade, though.

My 2000 Park Ave is still pretty shiny, and rust-free, but there are two spots where it's fading, and makes me suspect that it's had some body work done. The spots will buff out, but they always come back. Some black paint around the sunroof is also peeling. The trim around the windows and B-pillars is more of a satin type of hue. It's not fading out like the Intrepid's blackout trim did, but seems to be tarnishing a bit, like copper.

fintail

Cars certainly don't rust like they used to, or age in general overall like they used to. The ~74 T-Bird my parents had was off the road by 1985, even in a dry climate, it just wore out mechanically and cosmetically. I've seen old junkyard photos where there seem to be a lot more newer cars ready for scrap, too.

Foreign cars were even worse. British cars pretty much just evaporated, Japanese cars were similar, and German cars were little better. I remember talking to a guy who lived in the UK and had a fintail...he said by the early 70s the car was completely rotten and not fixable.

hpmctorque

With so much coastline, many parts of the UK are corrosive. However, I remember Shifty mentioning something to the effect that they've got a lot of shops there that do excellent corrosion repair work.

My retired ex-Ford manager acquaintance believes that better corrosion protection is the leading factor in extending the average age of vehicles in service. He readily acknowledges, though, that several other factors, including economic ones, also play a role. I'm thinking that all the electronics, and the cost of replacing all those air bags, when mechanical parts and body damage could otherwise be repaired, represent strong headwinds to service life.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to average vehicle age as we get beyond the effects of the '08-'10 period.

texases

So far car age just keeps increasing. Airbags have been around for years, so I don't think they're a problem. Note the discussion on reduced engine wear in this article.

hpmctorque

Yeah, I referred to that article in my message #514 in the Go Green By Driving It 'Til The Wheels Fall Off discussion.

steine13

When air bags first became mainstream, it was not known how they would age. As I recall -- and I don't remember where I read it -- there was a mandatory 10-year inspection for all airbags. It has since become clear that airbag life is typically much longer than that without issues.

Does anybody know for sure whether that is true?

BTW, around here -- Michigan -- it is not unusual to have to replace brake and fuel lines on older cars... sometimes they can still look pretty good at the same time. Sheet metal has gotten MUCH better.

Cheers -Mathias

fintail

I remember my 89 S-class had a sticker that specified airbag replacement, I think for 2003. Didn't have it done, of course. I remember MB actually bought back an early (1980) W126 with an airbag, and crash tested it to see if everything still worked. This was in 2005 or 2010 - I can't remember, but I remember reading it in a German magazine. The airbag still worked.

xwesx

My '96 Outback had a placard on the visor that said I was to take it to a dealer ten years after manufacture to have the airbag "inspected." Ten years was, if I recall correctly, August 2005. I called to set up an appointment, but canceled it when they wanted me to pay for it. Of course the dealer recommended against it, but I said something to the effect that if the manufacturer wants the inspection done but not to pay for it, then they must feel pretty confident that it will work in the future. Basically, not paying for the inspection will save them money versus a lawsuit later on.

As it turns out, that car was a goner five months later with no airbag (or need for it) deployment.

au1994

Based on first hand observation and watching Wheeler Dealers , it seems a certian amount of rust is acceptable/expected when buying an older car. Maybe its the same here. I live in the south and if you stumble accross something with rust you just move on to the next one.

hpmctorque

If some rust is acceptable to the buyer, he can, indeed should adjust his bid accordingly. Most sellers understand this, so rust is no different than scratches, dents or identifiable mechanical issues. Let's face it, most used vehicles are far from pristine, and most buyers are willing to trade some issues and imperfections for a price adjustment. That's what makes a market.

As you imply, buyers in areas where rust is more prevalent are generally more willing to accept some rust than those in areas where rust is uncommon.

fintail

Also might depend on the car. If you're looking at say an old Jag or Triumph, good luck finding one without a few bubbles.

baxter225

On the subject of rust, how about a 1946 Willys for $2450? Far enough away to eliminate the temptation, but how hard are these things to keep after?

http://jonesboro.craigslist.org/cto/2869592430.html

fintail

Nice patina. I'd just do the mechanical renovation and leave it looking as-is.

Mr_Shiftright

In California selling a car with rust is very difficult. It rather depends on what the "rust" actually is. If it is surface rust on paint, that's okay. If there are perforations in the metal---well, unless it's a very rare or desirable car, you'll have to practically give it away.

au1994

Sorry, that wasn't worded very well. I was referring to cars in Europe, England specifically.

It was early when I wrote that, that's my excuse!

ab348

Well, I guess this one is right out then:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikebaird/4585328947/

Around here, they'd say "Some rust, resto project, mechanic's special".

andre1969

It's amazing that the front bumper still looks good after all those years, and I'm kinda shocked to still see some of the interior trim intact on the back door and cargo area!

au1994

Most of that will buff right out...

Mr_Shiftright

amazing as it sounds, if that were a rare Bugatti or Ferrari 250 GTO, someone would buy it just for the VIN plate.

hpmctorque

"Most of that will buff right out..."

Same thought went through my mind.

stickguy

Something unexpected comes along.

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/2894225044.html

qbrozen

interesting

fintail

If it was stock looking and immaculate, it might be something...nice transplant from the stock chainsaw engine, but I don't know about the look.

Mr_Shiftright

One also has to wonder with projects of this type if the engineering was done properly, or if the car is going to burst into flames or break in half on you. I'd certainly take it to a specialist, such as a speed shop that builds rods, and have it evaluated.

I've seen some great work and I've seen some real horror shows/death traps.

stickguy

in the "when you thought you have seen everything, but you are wrong" sweepstakes.

hard to imagine there is enough beer in NJ to make this seem like a smart idea. But in a sick way, I kind of like it!

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/2925562651.html

tjc78

That took more than beer to build. I like how he says its "crazy fast" but provides no time slips to back it up. It looks pretty cobbled together, but as the ad states is certainly "one of a kind"

qbrozen

ummmm... is that a plywood dividing wall?? :sick:

andre1969

ummmm... is that a plywood dividing wall??

It has sort of a rippled look to it, almost like old, weathered, roofing felt! Maybe he put that over the plywood for some weatherproofing!

texases

Maybe he put that over the plywood for some weatherproofing!

Hey, he said it still needed some work! The shingles are up to you!

Mr_Shiftright

I really like the meticulous engine-bay detailing, which reflects well on the rest of the vehicle I think. And really, with a motor like this, why worry about brakes?

tjc78

brakes are soooo overrated.

andre1969

brakes are soooo overrated.

Actually, as long as the parking brake is a pull-handle, like what Mopar used to use, driving without brakes isn't *too* treacherous. Don't ask me how I know this.

But the other type, where you have a foot pedal, and then have to pull a lever to release, isn't quite so easy to modulate. They seem more like they're designed to pull the car down to a panic stop and that's it, whereas with the Mopar pull handle, you could give it a little pressure or a lot.

Not that I'd recommend driving around like this for any length of time! :surprise:

Mr_Shiftright

Oh it wouldn't be for any length of time anyway. :P

andre1969

Oh it wouldn't be for any length of time anyway.

Yeah, I imagine the parking/emergency brake wouldn't last very long if you had to rely on it as your sole source of stopping! Whenever I had to drive like that, I'd also rely on downshifting to slow the car, timing traffic lights so that it would turn green before I got to it, give myself plenty of stopping distance, etc.

xwesx

give myself plenty of stopping distance

Emphasis on this particular point.... :P

I drove my '69 Econoline van to Alaska back in 1996 with pretty much no brakes for the last 1500 miles. That was fun (or not!).

My master cylinder was warning me for a while that it was not happy, but being a novice I didn't know what it was trying to tell me. I just thought that was the way it operated. Then, it literally went from "working, with small hiccups" to "not working, save for small hiccups" in the press of a brake pedal. Thankfully, it was at a construction zone stop, and I was the first car in line so I had plenty of distance to get the van stopped.

andre1969

The last time I had a brake failure was back in 2006, on my '76 LeMans. Thankfully, it gave me plenty of warning. It would stop, but the pedal would slowly go all the way to the floor unless I pumped it. I took it to the mechanic, and he replaced the master cylinder and both rear wheel cylinders, and it's been fine ever since.

Back in 2002, my grandmother's '85 LeSabre had TOTAL brake failure, which I didn't think was possible on a car with a dual master cylinder? One morning I hopped in the car to go to work, and when I put my foot on the brake pedal to shift into gear, it went right to the floor with no effort. Never did find out what was wrong with the LeSabre. I was contemplating getting rid of it anyway, as I thought I had too many cars, and the brakes were the final straw.

fintail

Once the fintail, which has dual circuit brakes, broke a brake line. Three pumps max and it was pretty much gone. As luck would have it, the parking brake was also broken when that happened. Luckily I wasn't going too fast, and could downshift to an eventual stop.

stickguy

I think this one finally made me reach my limit. Why? On so many levels.

And i love his description of "needing a little bodywork)"

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/2937501852.html

Mr_Shiftright

I am.....speechless.

texases

A-freakin'-mazing! What's not to like about this?

xwesx

Holy..... Um.... I'm with Shiftright.

I'm so glad I keep a garbage can close to my desk; off to change the bag now.... :surprise:

fintail

I like the workmanship, looks like it was made in China 10 years ago

au1994

I have no words....

gsemike

Can't you get a real Z3 for maybe 10 grand?

gsemike

Buy this instead

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/cto/2900499553.html

It's even nearby

michaellno

Can't you get a real Z3 for maybe 10 grand?

No, but I found this one for under $9K here in Colorado.

Yeah, it's an automatic but it's gotta be better than the franken-Z listed above.

Mr_Shiftright

One of my favorite lines from an old movie:

(expert talking, with magnifying glass) "Either this is a fake, or a very very clever original".