Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

I love it when a car has obviously just been washed and is nice and shiny on wet ground. Being wet can hide things.

fintail

Do you ever still see Ladas on the road in Van? I remember years ago when I visited, I often spotted a green Niva somewhere out around Langley, but it's been ages since I saw a Samara there, maybe back into the 90s, and forget about a Signet, long gone.

boomchek said:

Those were interesting times growing up as a kid. We always got excited to see a foreign car on the roads at the time. Before we ran off to Italy when I was 8 I could count on one hand how many "exotics" I spotted in real life (mainly Porsches) on the roads in Poland.

sda

I remember when I lived in England in the mid 70s, Ladas, Skodas were sold in the UK. They often offered more standard equipment and were cheaper than other cars that were available. I never saw a favorable review about them, with the advice being it was better to buy a reputable used car than a new Lada or Skoda. Sound familiar with Hyundai, Kia when they were first offered in the US?

qbrozen

explorerx4 said:

Love all that oil baked into the underside of the 'bonnet'.

Is that what that is? I figured maybe it had a Lucas fire at some point in its life.

I'd be interested at maybe half that price, just for the experience of owning a v12 Jag sedan, even if only for a little while.

boomchek

fintail said:

Do you ever still see Ladas on the road in Van? I remember years ago when I visited, I often spotted a green Niva somewhere out around Langley, but it's been ages since I saw a Samara there, maybe back into the 90s, and forget about a Signet, long gone.

boomchek said:

Those were interesting times growing up as a kid. We always got excited to see a foreign car on the roads at the time. Before we ran off to Italy when I was 8 I could count on one hand how many "exotics" I spotted in real life (mainly Porsches) on the roads in Poland.

No I don't see any at all. Not even any for sale. I did see someone selling a set of Yugos on Craigslist few years ago, probably 2 or 3, all covered under tarps parked in the corner of a warehouse or a mechanic shop, non running of course. From time to time a Lada or Niva will pop up on Craigslist, but they're super rare. Probably because they were considered bottom of the barrel cars, and nobody bothered to keep them running once serious problems popped up. Most went to the scrapper.

fintail

That makes sense, disposable.

I remember back in the day I had a fascination with Ladas, the old style ones especially. I think the dealer was in New West? Or a dealer was, anyway.

boomchek said:

No I don't see any at all. Not even any for sale. I did see someone selling a set of Yugos on Craigslist few years ago, probably 2 or 3, all covered under tarps parked in the corner of a warehouse or a mechanic shop, non running of course. From time to time a Lada or Niva will pop up on Craigslist, but they're super rare. Probably because they were considered bottom of the barrel cars, and nobody bothered to keep them running once serious problems popped up. Most went to the scrapper.

Mr_Shiftright

I just don't get some people. Here we have a car that's a hard sell under any circumstances, and they say "needs a battery"? So either they are too cheap to spend another $130 to avoid an embarrassing no start during the sales process, or in fact the battery is really not the problem at all.

Gee, I wonder which one?

isellhondas said:

Are there any brave souls out there?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/5236471511.html

I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

tjc78

South Jersey Craigs:

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/5254324329.html

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/5277673289.html

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/5277607476.html (Are these really worth this much??)

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/5277290545.html

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/5267860350.html

stickguy

I kind of like the Fiat. though that would be a large money pit most likely.

now the Datsun, that looks sweet. No clue about the price, but hard to imagine finding a nicer one.

tjc78

The Datsun certainly is cool.  Looks to be pretty nicely done too.

qbrozen

what a coincidence: i'm almost certain I saw that Grand Wagoneer on the road several weeks back. I even took a pic of it with my phone to show my dad since you never see them anymore, especially in what appeared to be halfway decent shape. Is it worth that much? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know for sure. Pretty sure you could get a fully restored older one for less. Didn't Wayne Carini buy something like that in an episode last year or the year before?

Yup, sure enough, a quick search shows me he bought a 1968 Wagoneer, but it was back in 2012. But 28k original miles and as perfect as you can get for $20,500. So I'd have to say that '88 ain't worth nowhere near that.

Is it just me, or is the rear of that Datsun riding low?

Mr_Shiftright

Sure a restored Datsun 2000 could be worth that much...but which it is, a 2000 or a 1600? You'd pay that for a super nice MGB, so why not? You could never restore one for this price.

Mr_Shiftright

Mr_Shiftright said:

Sure a restored Datsun 2000 could be worth that much...but which it is, a 2000 or a 1600? You'd pay that for a super nice MGB, so why not? You could never restore one for this price.

53 Ford Delivery --- hopeless

Fiat 124 -- it depends on how it runs and what it needs. These are creeping up in value but certainly not worth restoring at this point

Jeep -- it's a mess but a pretty easy vehicle to take completely apart. Might be a fun project.

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

I just don't get some people. Here we have a car that's a hard sell under any circumstances, and they say "needs a battery"? So either they are too cheap to spend another $130 to avoid an embarrassing no start during the sales process, or in fact the battery is really not the problem at all.

Gee, I wonder which one?

isellhondas said:

Are there any brave souls out there?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/5236471511.html

I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

I was thinking the same thing on that Jaguar. The guy is too cheap to spend 100.00 on a battery?

And anytime I see "I'm selling this for a friend" I'm willing to bet a lot of money that the seller is a curbstoner out to make a quick flip.

It probably does only need a battery. After all, Jaguars of that vintage have bulletproof electrical systems....right?

Mr_Shiftright

The Jaguar engines of that era are great...it's everything that's attached to the engine that sucks.

Mr_Shiftright

I've been working on maybe buying THIS ONE but doing the math makes the purchase a very shaky proposition:

The only upside is that I can store the car and buy what I need bit by bit rather than writing a check for a running car. (scrounge, deal, barter, cash in favors, beg, etc).

the downside is that the only way to make this work is to find a reliable used engine, of the same year, that has been bench tested and warrantied.

Given the large percentage of failures of this engine, that isn't going to be easy.

right now he's at $5K, I'm hanging tough at $2,000.

Used engine --$5,000 to $7,000

Retrofit IMS bearing, new water pump, new air/oil separator ( prior to installation)--- maybe $3000 if done by experts

R&R of engine -- $1600

Best case scenario---car ready to roll for $12,000 total (a pretty good deal)

Worst case scenario--car will end up costing $18,000---which is about retail book for a good running one.

explorerx4

@mrshiftright, It's not like it's a low mileage car, 112k on it.
The owner seems to be asking way over it's worth, so why should you help them out by knowing what it could be worth?
It's still a risk.

xwesx

Meh. If you're solid on your recon numbers, which it sounds like you are, come up a grand to $3K (e.g., 50% increase in offer price) and he can either meet you there or you can walk. If the numbers work out, you're in at $13K, which is still a good deal (only an 8% increase), and if they don't, you're in at $19K, but you have a much better known entity than you would for that off-the-shelf $18K comparison.

BUT, the guy sounds pretty proud of this car, despite its obvious condition and wear, so he might just be too proud to recognize that "best offer" when he hears it.

Mr_Shiftright

He's really a good guy but naturally doesn't want to take a full bath. Basically, the car has no more value than a wrecking yard would give him. Some buyers have already "walked" so I'm just sitting here patiently.

This isn't a car I would flip---I'd keep it if it ran out well. Like you say, with an engine-out overhaul of all the common failure parts on this car----water pump, air/oil separator, and IMS bearing, + sealing up any oil leaks--that gives me much better odds of successful longterm ownership.

Gotta be real careful with this one, though, especially shopping for the used engine. Has to be same year donor car. I don't want any Porsche wiring harness or computer problems. Porsche always makes lots of changes year-to-year.

stickguy

I like it at least. agreed that maybe 3K to be done with it and see what happens. Surprised some Porsche specialist type hasn't picked it up as a flip (do their own work). hey, maybe get luck, and engine can be fixed cheaper! At least if you buy this and end up in it for retail, you could walk away clean. Plus, better off than buying a runner, and having an engine fail on you.

I lost respect though at this part of the ad: "Chevy conversion perhaps" Ouch. I'm sure it is doable, and would cost you way more to do it right.

Mr_Shiftright

I wouldn't do a Chevy conversion. If I were going to be that crazy (those conversion kits are NOT cheap) I'd opt for something like a turbo Subaru Sti motor...keep it "boxer".

I don't think there's much money in this even for a Porsche specialist. It's a lot of work building a 996 motor and this block is probably no good, so he'd be fishing for a used motor or core anyway. And he'd have to take away from his shop time. It's parked at a Porsche repair shop and they aren't interested apparently, at least not as his price. I suspect some fool will buy it at full price...not me.

fintail

MB 190D conversion - I mean a fintail 190D, not one of those racy W201s.

isellhondas

Hardly a project car but one I would love to own!

http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/5253734586.html

texases

How hard will it be to get this Volvo 164 up and running, after 30+ years of inaction? What's it really worth?
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/cto/5263301235.html

stickguy

Very, and well less than it would cost. Buy this for nostalgia, nit making a profit!

Still, looks super clean in and out. Other than needing an engine. Simple lump, but rare parts. I love that it is a stick.

That dash brings. Back fond memories of our 1969 144s. I would love this. For about $500. Just to use as a lounge chair in the garage.

Brakes alone will be a grand. All the fluids, new suspension. 2-3k to rebuild engine. Bet you need a good 10k to make road worthy. At which point it will maybe be worth 4K?

stickguy

Also the 4 cyl was a much better balanced car.

But this has more engine bay for a V8 conversion! Probably what I would do with it.

stever

Yikes, that Volvo brings back (bad) memories. At least it's a few years before the rubber bellows fuel injection system became available. Guess the ones in our family were the 200 series.

fintail

That's actually a lower line car. His price is optimistic. I suspect that money should buy an 8 cylinder car. It is pretty, though.

isellhondas said:

Hardly a project car but one I would love to own!

http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/5253734586.html

texases

I didn't read the ad, didn't notice it was a 6. If I was to go to the trouble of getting a Packard, it would have to be the 8.

Mr_Shiftright

The Volvo 164 was supposed to compete with Mercedes but it fell far short of the mark. It's a heavy, clumsy car, very soft sprung, slow and ponderous. Remarkably this example actually has intact leather on the seats---most of them disintegrated upon contact with oxygen. Fairly sturdy mechanics. As for the stickshift part, keep in mind that that gearbox is very heavy and slow. A sports sedan this ain't. Value? I dunno, maybe running well it would be worth $3500--$4000.

texases said:

How hard will it be to get this Volvo 164 up and running, after 30+ years of inaction? What's it really worth?
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/cto/5263301235.html

Mr_Shiftright

BTW, somebody else paid full freight on that Porsche I was looking at. Well, good luck with that. Maybe he's parting it out. I'm more than okay with this, as I get the willies when I buy a car that I can't drive first, no matter WHAT the previous owner says about it.

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

BTW, somebody else paid full freight on that Porsche I was looking at. Well, good luck with that. Maybe he's parting it out. I'm more than okay with this, as I get the willies when I buy a car that I can't drive first, no matter WHAT the previous owner says about it.

You probably just dodged a bullet!

steine13

This isn't really a project, and don't ask me why I'm trolling the nether regions of the Motor City, but am I the only one who had no idea these still hung around in OBD-II times??

http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/cto/5296718799.html

It's not like they're trying to hurt anyone; that looks like as good a $1000 car as you're going to find these days. But still...
I feel old.

andre1969

According to my old car book the Corsica's last year was actually 1996, as the Malibu took over that spot for 1997. I guess it's possible they held on in the fleet market though, and maybe my old car book doesn't show sales for the fleet version?

I had high hopes for the Corsica when it first came out, as I thought it was a better looking car than the Taurus...and I tend to root for Chevy before Ford. But, the Corsica was a compact, so it went up more against the Tempo, while the Taurus tended to mop the floor with whatever competition it had at the time.

Still, I guess the Corsica's not a bad car. I hated the interiors at the time, but as an inexpensive used car, I'd probably be fine with it.

fintail

I remember when I was a new driver teenager, we had a Corsica rental car, and my mom let me drive it. It was a nicer model with a 3.1, and due to that hare trigger GM throttle response, it felt like a rocket. Seemed like a nice car at the time, OK stereo too. I remember it really well.

stickguy

well, I thought it was a bad car when they were brand new. Can't imagine it has improved in 20 years.

fintail

Teenagers appreciate anything that runs and is faster than cars that were crapcans (malaisey stuff) in the mid 90s

uplanderguy

I had a new '90 Corsica 4-cyl. 5-speed I bought for my wife. She was delighted as she was upgrading from a '78 Chevette 4-speed! We ran that car for 108K miles and I did nothing but replace a plastic wheel cover. It sat out all the time too. My parents bought a V6 '90 Corsica with column-shift automatic! It had buckets, though, of course--they all did. Theirs was the ubiquitous maroon over silver. They had the steel wheel with trim rings and the trim rings, on pothole-riddled roads, didn't last very long.

I actually had a new bright red '89 Beretta GT and a '90 Corsica at the same time. There was a period when the Corsica/Beretta (they considered them one line) was the best-selling car in America. I don't believe that lasted real long though.

We bought a new '93 Caprice Classic which became my wife's car, and I drove the Corsica until I bought a new '97 Cavalier 4-door 5-speed, which was traded on an '02 Cavalier coupe 5-speed, which was traded on my '08 Cobalt 4-door 5-speed. All were dirt-cheap to buy and reliable, and dirt-cheap to maintain. The last three were built forty miles down the road from us, at Lordstown. People work there who live where I live now, and live in my old hometown which is forty miles in the other direction from the plant.

fintail

Ha, the rental Corsica we had was that maroon too, with a matching interior. Very 90s. It's still out there, seems to exist in the CUV world. I call it "middle aged woman burgundy"

Those cars might be a luxury version of the "mechanical cockroach" ethos of the Chevette - not the most refined, but they seem to keep moving. Corsicas and Berettas also seem to have been affected by the paint issues of the time, where it would fall off in patches, sometimes before the car was terribly old.

andre1969

Back in the 1990's we had a few fleet Corsicas. I drove one on occasion, although being a contractor, rather than government, it turns out I wasn't supposed to. Oops!

At one point, 1997 I believe, we got 5 Olds Achievas for $65,000...or basically, $13K apiece. I spent a little time behind the wheel of those, as well. Totally mediocre cars, but I guess for the price who could complain? They lasted awhile, too...at least 10 years I think.

Now we have an Impala...a 2012 I think. I drove it about 3 years ago, when we had to shuttle it from our building over to the motor pool for something or other, and the secretary brought me back in her ~2000 Camry.

I'm pretty sure the Impala is a 3.5. I remember popping the hood on the Achieva once, and seeing that it had whatever version of the Quad 4 they were using at the time. I can't remember what the Corsicas had.

fintail

In 2011 I had a rental Impala (kind of a maroon/burgundy color no less) with the 3.5. It had 4 miles on it when I took delivery. Completely adequate car, but not amazing in any way. Maybe because it was new, mpg wasn't the best either - I don't recall it breaking 30 on the highway.

In 2013 I had a loaded new style Impala LTZ with the 3.6, as a rental. Completely different animal, a much nicer and more competent car.

uplanderguy

Luckily, neither my red Beretta nor my charcoal gray Corsica had the paint issues. Around here, it seemed like that was white and the blue cars primarily.

uplanderguy

Speaking of later-model cars (instead of the 'classics' I usually post here about), why aren't cars as quiet as they used to be? Mostly, I'm talking about tire/road noise.

Both our Cobalts have virtually zero tire noise. My Malibu has more road/tire noise. I have to believe they took insulation out to save weight and get the mpg up. The Malibu also strikes me as having a smaller gas tank than a car like that should. I'm sure that's weight-control too.

My friend has a stunningly attractive (to my eyes) '15 Impala LTZ. It has big-ol' tires and wheels, but even it has tire noise.

I know I'm a dinosaur, but I remember riding in my friends' parents' new '77 Caprice Classic. It was totally silent. We had an Impala the same year, but the Caprice had more insulation, including an under-the-hood pad and other things. I remember the brochure even said, "You'll find it hard to believe a moving automobile can be so quiet". That really was no hyperbole. Seems like nobody cares that much about that trait anymore.

andre1969

My '76 Grand LeMans has the pad under the hood. I wonder if that was one of the differences between the base LeMans and the Grand LeMans?

What's the tank size of the Malibu? 16 gallons? I don't think it's really a weight thing, but probably more a function of that was the biggest tank they could get to squeeze into the available space? A gallon of gasoline only weighs about 6 pounds, and making a tank larger isn't going to add very much weight in materials. I'd imagine taking the tank from 16 to 20 gallons wouldn't even add 30 pounds.

In the old days, cars had a lot of wasted space underneath, so with many designs it was usually easier to make a larger tank. Although maybe some designs didn't allow much flexibility. For example, my '68 Dart actually had a spare tire well in the trunk, something that's a bit of a rarity in a RWD car from that era. The gas tank was actually shaped to wrap around the forward area of the spare tire well. It was 18 gallons. However, when you factor the space between the spare tire well and the rear axle, and the subframe rails on either side, plus the fact you can only make a gas tank hang so low before it becomes vulnerable, there probably was no way for Mopar to make that tank any bigger without a major re-engineering of the car.

On the other hand, I've heard that with the '72-76 Torino, once fuel economy started dropping because of the rudimentary emission controls, and they couldn't figure out how to improve economy, Ford simply gave the car a bigger gas tank to improve its range. So the Torino probably had a lot of wasted space under there that could be put to use.

FWIW, the tank on my old Intrepid was only 17 gallons. My Park Ave is 18.5 gallons. I think my Ram is 27-28. At the time, I was really impressed with the Intrepid's range. I usually got around 300 miles between fill-ups, and on longer trips sometimes 400. In comparison my old car, an '89 Gran Fury ex police car, had an 18 gallon tank, but it would only break 20 mpg on a highway run. Around town it was more like 12-13 mpg. I'd usually fill up around the 200 mile mark just to be safe.

uplanderguy

Yes, our Malibu has a 16-gallon tank. The car gets good highway mileage, 32-34 in real world, but it seems like around town, we're always filling it up. The factory tires still looked good tread-wise but at 47K miles they sounded like tractor tires so I bought new. I accidentally wrote '215' down as '225' or couldn't read my writing, so the tire place put 225's on it (I wish they'd have called to say, 'do you really want a different size than what's on the car?' but no go). These tires have about 17K miles and to my ears, they're starting to get noisy.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

Speaking of later-model cars (instead of the 'classics' I usually post here about), why aren't cars as quiet as they used to be? Mostly, I'm talking about tire/road noise.

Both our Cobalts have virtually zero tire noise. My Malibu has more road/tire noise. I have to believe they took insulation out to save weight and get the mpg up. The Malibu also strikes me as having a smaller gas tank than a car like that should. I'm sure that's weight-control too.

My friend has a stunningly attractive (to my eyes) '15 Impala LTZ. It has big-ol' tires and wheels, but even it has tire noise.

I know I'm a dinosaur, but I remember riding in my friends' parents' new '77 Caprice Classic. It was totally silent. We had an Impala the same year, but the Caprice had more insulation, including an under-the-hood pad and other things. I remember the brochure even said, "You'll find it hard to believe a moving automobile can be so quiet". That really was no hyperbole. Seems like nobody cares that much about that trait anymore.

A big part of the noise equation is body-on-frame versus unit-body. My old '68 Cutlass has virtually no sound insulation to speak of - just a thin pad under the floor carpet and (I think) an even thinner pad glued ot the underside of the roof - yet it has very little tire noise, and takes bumps (like expansion strips) much better than any unitized car I've driven. My old '78 Delta 88 and '79 Park Avenue were even better than the Cutlass in that regard.

I know that when I bought my '02 Olds Intrigue that GM had responded to road noise complaints by installing some fiber pads in the inside of the front fenders near where the door hinges were. The same thing was there in my '09 Lacrosse. But you could still hear a lot of tire noise, especially in the Intrigue. The Buick was noticeably quieter because they used laminated door glass and a bunch more insulation, apparently. The Buicks built today are even quieter.

xwesx

Lining the inside of the wheel well with felt, as well as high-quality suspension bushings, cuts down on a lot of that noise. Doesn't help with wind, obviously, but it does muffle tire noise and vibration.

stickguy

Open the moonroof and crank the stereo. Eliminates tire noise wonderfully!

tjc78

I think it depends a lot on the tires. Our Enclave with Michelins is dead silent at speeds well above the limit. Heck, even my aging 04 Grand Marquis is quiet with Michelins that are nearing 45K miles.

tjc78

andre1969 said:

I had high hopes for the Corsica when it first came out, as I thought it was a better looking car than the Taurus...and I tend to root for Chevy before Ford. But, the Corsica was a compact, so it went up more against the Tempo, while the Taurus tended to mop the floor with whatever competition it had at the time.

Still, I guess the Corsica's not a bad car. I hated the interiors at the time, but as an inexpensive used car, I'd probably be fine with it.

I'd take a Taurus of the same era over a Corsica anytime. Those interiors were not a nice place to be. I know someone who had a heck of a commute and managed 200K on a first gen Corsica. I said he was a masochist!