2009 Toyota Corolla

eldaino

i agree with backy on this one. We were talking about the inclusion of the safety feature, not so much the actuall crash test scores as a result of them. well at least i was!

the whole reason for my pity statement was simply becasue despite the fact that the corolla has a good hold on how many corollas it sells (lets just face it; boring cars with good reliabilty sell well), knowing how nice and at least a little less bland the new corolla will be with (presumably) the same mpg and more standard saftey features, and STILL buying the 08 just seems to not make that much sense. Unless you are getting a major deal, i see no reason for it. Even if you are, i'd still wait.

with regards to anything smaller than a 1.8 litre engine...considering how much the new corolla will weigh, it will probably end up being SLOWER than the 12 sec corollas of yore, whom with even 1.6 litre engines, at least weighed less.

and the mpg reading like in the prius would be hard to include...if we go with your tinny engine theory, while you still may have a fuel efficient vehicle, including features like this drives the base price up...now you have a gas sipping vehcile, but not neccesarily an economical one.

eldaino

i remember when snake weasel and i got into it over the importance of this safety feature...apparently the federal government agrees with ME. :P

drfill

Than you'll be the first ones.

More features sells some people. Doesn't make it a better, or worse car.

I'd rather get a Corolla with no airbags than a Kia with a dozen.

Toyota doesn't sell airbags. They sell Corollas. And that's the difference, for all the Hyundais out thur.

Look at it this way. You have one year left to find chinks in Corolla armor. Make it count.

DrFill

backy

This discussion isn't about Kias or Hyundais. It's about the future Corolla. And I expect the next-gen Corolla will (finally) get side bags and curtains standard, just like the Camry did when it was redesigned for 2007. Since one of the most important jobs for a car is to protect its occupants in case of a crash, adding safety features like SABs/SACs does indeed make a car better, just as much as improving its fuel economy or adding really cool plood on the dash (which we know Toyota is very good at, based on the current Corolla).

There's already been plenty of discussion about the Corolla's current "chinks." This is a discussion about what we hope (and learn) Toyota will do to fix those chinks and make the Corolla a stronger competitor in its class, suitable for more people (people who won't buy one because of it's chinks).

drfill

will trump all compacts on safety. Not worried about that.

People deriding the Corolla as some sort of lemming not worth buying because it doesn't have some of the latest features is questionable. Corolla has proven it's not about having all the latest features. The vehicle is safe, and valuable.

Personally, I just want a smidge more front seat space. The Corolla's front seat is not very friendly to people over 6'.

DrFill

eldaino

i doubt it will trump them, it will just be on par finally.

eldaino

I'd rather get a Corolla with no airbags than a Kia with a dozen.


ok this is totally silly. You can come of of the soapbox now.


More features sells some people. Doesn't make it a better, or worse car.

depends on what kind of features. since stability control is becoming standard on everything, i'd say that helps make it a safer car, and cheaper to own, since many insurance companies give discounts based on safety equipment. Now an ipod hookup?, that makes a car better, not safer.

Toyota doesn't sell airbags. They sell Corollas. And that's the difference, for all the Hyundais out thur.

i'll take the hyundai with the airbags over the corolla with squat. Thanks.

Kirstie_H

Keep in mind that drfill sells Toyotas - he's bound to be a cheerleader for them! (otherwise he wouldn't sell many cars)

kenym

Couple of quick questions for [backy].

You wrote "adding really cool plood on the dash (which we know Toyota is very good at because of the current Corolla)"

Uh no I didn't know this and I guess my first question is what exactly is "plood" . anyway :confuse:

You also wrote "There's already been plenty of discussion about the Corolla's current "chinks." .

My second question is what is "chinks" and are you allowed too say that :shades:

nippononly

is plastic wood, and the Corolla LE is filthy with the stuff. I would support any movement to eliminate plood from the Corolla entirely. :sick:

drfill

I'm surprised at you. :surprise:

You know I have been Toyota for years, and selling them is just a logical progression. I don't need to "sell" TOyota, I choose to.

My commentary hasn't changed from year to year.

Corollas sold millions before airbags, and they will sell just as many with 6-7 airbags. Makes not one wit of difference.

It's not the best-selling car of all-time because of an airbag.

Take off the airbags, and it would still outsell any Hyundai. I know Hyundai guys are here trying to run it down. That's fine.

I don't see it getting them anywhere, doh? :confuse:

DrFill

backy

Why then did Toyota put standard side airbags, ABS, and active front head restraints on the 2008 xD, if they know that features like that will not make any difference in sales? Could it be that they know that safety features like those are commonplace in small cars, and they know that in order to continue to do well in that market, they need to at least match what their competitors are doing?

I think you are confusing yourself, a dyed-in-the-wool Toyota salesperson (literally), with other people here who have a more balanced view, and don't see everything as "Toyota: good; Hyundai: bad."

For example, I would not call a quintupling of sales in less than a decade, or going from the laughing stock of autodom to beating Toyota in respected third-party quality surveys, "going nowhere."

Toyota knows they have some strong competition in the Corolla's marketplace, e.g. Civic, Mazda3, Elantra, and the all-new 2008 Lancer and Focus. So they will respond accordingly and bring the Corolla up to current class standards in safety. Or they will pay for it in lost sales. I guarantee it.

kenym

Thanks for the explanation. Never heard that term before. :shades:

nippononly

Please take it from your audience, your tone has changed since you took the sales job. Not a big deal, but just an FYI in case you didn't realize it. Do you work for a corporate dealer or a family-owned place?

Oh, and kenym, I believe the term "chinks" was being used to refer to chinks in Corolla's armor with respect to its competition. If it doesn't have 6 standard airbags and standard ABS next time around, that will definitely be a chink in its armor relative to the market, although I wouldn't be sad about it personally if it helped keep the price down.

I wouldn't mind seeing it adopt one or two of the gadgets from the Prius, like keyless start or something? Something that didn't raise the price much. Toyota seems to have a thing for keyless start lately anyway.

kdhspyder

Typical Toyota policy for new models is to maintain the MSRP pricing of the ougoing model on the new one while adding additional equipment. Right now there's a $750 rebate from Toyota on the Corolla and Matrix. The invoice cost of S/C AB and VSC/Trac is probably right at $1000.

However I'm guessing the internal cost on a product wide basis, assembled by robots from the outset is probably lower. So the rebate gets dropped next Spring but ABS,VSC, TRac and S/C AB are added standard. It's a net wash. Could they have done it this year as alpha01 suggested - probably.

I too would like to see some Prius toys added to jazz up the new model. I do like the idea of an uber-Corolla that competes content-wise with a Camry except that it's smaller and not as refined. It would be interesting to see the acceptance of a European type trim level with Navi and a killer interior. It would be pushing $22000 though.

Would it sell? The Scion-ers who are moving out of that brand into the mainstream might snap it up as opposed to Mom and Dad's Camry. Add the Boomers who loved their 80's Corolla that went 250,000 miles and are looking to keep fuel costs in line as they edge toward retirement but still don't want to retreat to the vehicle that just got them started when they had no money.

jaxs1

VSC will likely continue to be optional especially since it is still optional on the more expensive Camry.
Of course ABS will be standard and probably side airbags to compete with Civic and Elantra.

hondoyota

Some of us may not like the plastic wood trim interior on the corolla. However, fake wood has been present inside of corollas for +30 yrs. As Subaru would say "it's what makes a corolla, a corolla" .

eldaino

ha ha ha i'll join!! :P

kenym

I am not an expert on Corolla. I don't work for Toyota and the only Corolla I have driven or rode in is my wife's 06 S.

However personally I think the S has a handsome interior. All black vinyl/plastic dash and side window panels. Leather wrapped shifter knob and steering wheel along with a chrome plate around the shifter. There is no fake wood in the interior on our S.

My neighbors new Outlook is loaded with vinyl/plastic and fake wood and only has 6 head rest for seven passengers. Our Corolla has 5 head rest one for each passenger along with side air bags, no fake wood and 30+ MPG overall for the past year. Life is good :shades:

Kirstie_H

That's why I'm sure you make a very good salesperson for them, drfill! You believe in the product. That's all I was saying. If you didn't believe they were the best, you should probably find a different company to sell for.

drfill

We have made some dedicated Toyota forums recently, which have crystlaized my views on certain competitors. Previously, I was taking Lexus' side in Luxyr Lounge, for example.

Hyundai is coming along, but I don't see Hyundai as any sort of threat to Toyota, at least not for the next decade. I believe they've hit a hard plateau, and they are moving desperately to jump start their stalled train.

I haven't seen any stampedes over at the Hyundai lot, so it's much ado about nothing to me.

If their lineup grows, but sales don't that says a lot to me. Not a hiccup, they've stalled. It's been 18 months without any growth.

Toyota's only real proiblem is they're growing to fast, for my taste, and incentives are higher than they need to be.

We're comparing the Spurs and the Cavs here. Champions vs JV. :confuse:

Now I'm supposed to buy this "Hyundai Sonata looks better than Camry" malarkey.

If it's so great-looking, great warranty, lower price, why doesn't it sell?

I guess they're targeting the 5-series market at this time. Little smaller than Camry's market.

GM can put Camry's in their showrooms, Hyundai can win an award.

Toyota will just try to keep up with the demand for their slapped-togther family sedan. And their Corolla.

And Prius.

DrFill

mcmanus

Hyundai is both a big company and hungry for success, I'd be keeping an eye on them if I were Toyota. We have a local dealer who is doubling their 10 year/100,000 mile warrantee. Not quite sure how they can afford to do that, or if they'll even be around in 20 years. Better equipped with a way better warrantee and improving fuel economy makes Hyundai Elantra far less risky, especially when you factor in their corporate resources and strong desire to succeed.

With the Scion move to using Corolla/Camry engines and standard features, it's making it harder for me to justify the additional $3 - 4,000 for a Toyota sedan versus a Scion hatchback. 4A versus 5A (and the corresponding difference in fuel econmony) is the biggest mechanical differences. But it would take 150,000 or more miles before you'd make up the cost difference. Plus with no hassle pricing the Scions would probably hold their value better.

drfill

Hyundai is small potatoes compared to Toyota, in volume and sales.

Toyota wouldn't have any problem with you getting a Scion, as those are full-sticker deals, no rebates, no rate. They'd prefer a younger, sub-35 buyer, that's all.

Nothing is holding their value better than a Camry/Corolla, so you lost me thur. :confuse:

DrFill

backy

Nothing is holding their value better than a Camry/Corolla, so you lost me thur.

That's odd... I don't see anything about Camry or Corolla here:

http://www.kbb.com/kbb/Advice/GenericContent.aspx?ContentUniqueName=KbbWebContent:912

mcmanus

In the automotive business Hyundai may be small, but as an overall company it's huge. They build supertankers with engines big enough to hold a car inside one of the cylinders. And Toyota has gotten less willing to take chances as they've become bigger. The Koreans are now where the Japanese were a generation ago, climbing the learning curve fast. A weak dealer network (at least here in the Midwest) is their biggest shortcoming.

Camry/Corolla do hold value very well, but without rebates/etc. Scion could do even better. Lack of dealer network is again perhaps their biggest disadvantage.

I've become a Toyota fan in large part due to a wonderful local dealership, but they also sell Lexus and Scion. Besides I like the smaller footprint, chairlike seating, and hatchback versatility of the xA, xB, and xD. Once I'm inside the car, who cares what it looks like?

By the way, if you keep a car for 200,000 miles, are a safe driver, and put down a decent down payment resale value doesn't mean much.

jacksan1

I agree with your assessment of the Koreans, especially Hyundai.

Toyota has gotten less willing to take chances as they've become bigger.

However, on this point, I beg to differ. Perhaps Toyota is conservative when it comes to the vehicle designs (shapes and looks), lacking in the buzz factor. But Toyota took a huge leap with the hybrid technology, and that was not and is still not the area for the faint of the heart to venture into. Also, Toyota's "boring" gas engine technology is quite impressive in itself, with a fine balance of fuel efficiency and usable power, which is an excellent engineering feat in itself (take any Toyota V6, for instance). That, however low-key it may be, is a chance to take because a technology like that is something good but not likely to catch big marketing attention.

My view of Toyota is that it is an innovative company with many smart people working inside who are willing to take chances, but in very mature and substantively "good" ways.

w9cw

DrFill wrote: "Hyundai is small potatoes compared to Toyota, in volume and sales."

I remember when GM and Ford made the same statement about Honda and Toyota in the '70s. Times change, and hopefully, Honda and Toyota, and the majority of its sales personnel, will not have the same arrogance and smugness as GM and Ford did back then. If they do, they may see the same thing happen down the road.

kdhspyder

And Toyota has gotten less willing to take chances as they've become bigger. The Koreans are now where the Japanese were a generation ago, climbing the learning curve fast

Sorry this statement is so off-the-wall it has to be called out. Let's start with
.. hybrids; Prius, TCH, all models within 10 yrs.
.. a youth oriented brand with quirky styling, no margins and an internet driven marketing
.. $5 BILLION bet on breaking the good ol' boy network of big truck sales in the US

The vehicles may be bland and unexciting for some enthusiasts but in marketing I'd liken them to riverboat gamblers with a huge stack of chips in front of them. Confidence helps too. What is even better than Toyota's mechanical expertise is their marketing skill. Of all the automakers here they have a better knowledge of what sells in a given segment.

I read in a blog recently that Toyota bought 40% of all the billboards in Germany!!! To take off there they are spending $2500 per vehicle in advertising.

drfill

Doesn't sound like you are up on your auto history, past or present.

As comparing the domestics in the 70's and Toyota of today is a joke of a comparison. :sick:

DrFill

drfill

By the way, if you keep a car for 200,000 miles, are a safe driver, and put down a decent down payment resale value doesn't mean much.

Congratulations! So you are the one.....

DrFill

eldaino

wooo good link!

what say you dr.fill?

i was going to go off on my honda horse and talk about how as good as toyotas do hold thier value, honda is still number one, but kbb took care of it for me.

drfill

thru Intellichoice. So to each their own.

That's old hat, so no commercial to pound the drum is necessary.

DrFill

jacksan1

Confidence helps too.

Yes, but theirs is also an excellent mix of both confidence and humility. In April, it was reported that Mr. Cho (or was Mr. Watanabe?) was blasting the new hires at Toyota HQ not to ever get complacent, or the company would sink in no time. Toyota clearly knows what it is capable of doing and developing, but has enough humility and awareness of the market reality to know that sitting on its glorious butt is a disaster in the making. It's this humility that is missing in so many big businesses today. Or should I say, they are full of themeselves. Toyota isn't. That is the most potent ingredient of the company, in my opinion.

mcmanus

Sorry, I'm not impressed with hybrid technology:

1. The up front cost will never be recouped within the expected life of the vehicle.

2. In the real world the increase fuel economy (especially out of town with the miles really pile up) is disapointing.

3. Overall they aren't any more "green" than a good example of a car with a gas engine when the environmental impact of battery production and disposal are accounted for.

4. They are a major distraction from the long term solution, fuel cells.

Scion is hardly the first brand to have quirkly styling, no discount pricing, or to use the internet.

On average, 40% of the car's MSRP is marketing related (that's over $10,000 per car).

I don't mean to sound like I'm slamming Toyota/Scion. I've owned 3 Toyotas and will probably buy a Toyota or Scion next time (due largely to a good local dealership). But being on top is not the same as staying on top. I hope they (and the competition for that matter) remain hungry, aggressive, and forward thinking.

prosource1

Hyundai/Kia Motor Group is NOT part of the Korean conglomerate. There was corporate separation from Hyundai Heavy Industries, Hyundai Electronics, Petroleum, etc and the other companies several years ago when the founder of Hyundai died and when the Korean economy went thru some serious issues. Hyundai owns a controlling interest in Kia, which they purchased several years ago.

kdhspyder

To each their own of course...but the facts don't support your opinion:

Sorry, I'm not impressed with hybrid technology:

1. The up front cost will never be recouped within the expected life of the vehicle.

This is not accurate. It's only an excuse not to buy a new innovation. Need facts?

2. In the real world the increase fuel economy (especially out of town with the miles really pile up) is disapointing.

This is absolutely erroneous. What do you mean by 'out of town'? Highway driving? In fact it's the City driving that disappoints first time drivers. Want to know why?

3. Overall they aren't any more "green" than a good example of a car with a gas engine when the environmental impact of battery production and disposal are accounted for.

Please. How can one still hold onto this outdated belief in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. On another forum I mentioned that someone seemed to have opened a time warp to 2003. Did you do any research at all about emissions and battery life and disposal? How do you form your opinions? Word of mouth or verifiable independent sources. Try these: US Federal Govt, Toyota, Cobasys, Argonne Natl Laboratories.

4. They are a major distraction from the long term solution, fuel cells.

Fuel cells may very well be the future. So for the next 10-20 years we should just keep the status quo and do nothing?

Scion is hardly the first brand to have quirkly styling, no discount pricing, or to use the internet.

But they seem to have done it better by bringing all three together in one spot at one time....in the auto industry.

On average, 40% of the car's MSRP is marketing related (that's over $10,000 per car).
[Source please]

I don't mean to sound like I'm slamming Toyota/Scion. I've owned 3 Toyotas and will probably buy a Toyota or Scion next time (due largely to a good local dealership). But being on top is not the same as staying on top. I hope they (and the competition for that matter) remain hungry, aggressive, and forward thinking.

drfill

"Moving Forward".

DrFill

sales2010

Personally, I like the fake wood. It makes the car look like a Lexus!

eldaino

best post in this thread.

eldaino

i think its kinda funny that the poster child for hybrids prius has taken a colossal hit with the new 2008 procedures for fuel economy...

so i guess the answer for being dissapointed with city mileage is because its massivley inflated? event the civic hybrids numbers were a reasonable drop.

Kirstie_H

Um.... Corolla, anyone?

sales2010

I was JUST voicing my opinion!!!! Do not be so gruff about it!!!

weick

The reason you don't see a Corolla in the best resale value list is because they believe that if a $45K car loses $10K in resale value in 3 years that is better than a $20K car that loses $5K.

For example, Edmunds estimates that a Corolla S with a cash price of $16.8K will depreciate $9K in 5 years (making it worth about $7.8K).

On the other hand, a BMW 525i which was in the best resale value list shows a price of $73.5K new and 5 year depreciation of $28.5K. Now I will admit that the BMW only loses 39% of its value and the Corolla loses 53% of its value but I still think a $9K loss is better than a $28.5K loss.

If you look at total cost of ownership from Edmunds that 5 series BMW will cost you $73.5K over 5 years and the Corolla S will cost you $36.3K.

I have no problem with people buying a BMW 525i but hopefully it isn't because they believe they hold their value better than a Corolla.

drfill

525i doesn't cost $73k. Is that what you are saying, or is the total 5 year cost $73k? :confuse:

Corolla is a couple of percent behind Civic. About 10+ percent above most everything else (Focus, Elantra, Cobalt).

DrFill

backy

The reason you don't see Corolla on that "best resale" list is because, as drfill correctly pointed out, the Civic has a higher resale value than the Corolla. And last time I checked, Civics don't go for anywhere near $45k.

FWIW (drfill et. al.), my '01 Elantra depreciated less than $6000 in 5-1/2 years. So if a Corolla S will depreciate about $9k in 5 years, I don't think that's all that great even though percentage-wise, the Corolla might have the superior resale value (due to its higher initial price). I'd rather go with the car that takes less cash out of my pocket/bank account. I can't spend a percentage.

So that leads to the question, what will the resale value of the next-gen Corolla be, and will the introduction of the new design after six years with the current one cause the current model to lose some value? That often happens when a new design comes out. If the next Corolla is competitive in performance, fuel economy, interior room, comfort/convenience, and safety, it should continue to do well in the resale market I think, because of the Toyota reputation.

drfill

And Corollas and Civics are always in demand. Not sometimes. New or used. Always.

Since Corolla still sets sales records, I think that's a fair indicator of high demand, no?

Since Corolla still offers a bigger back seat, bigger trunk, split folding rear seat (only available on Civic EX), and similar economy and speed, you'll have to explain to me how a Corolla is not competitive, even with the newly redesigned Civic. You lost me on that one. :confuse:

DrFill

backy

That one is pretty easy:

* Terrible driving position for many drivers (e.g. lack of a telescopic steering wheel)
* Lack of standard safety features (e.g. side air bags, side curtains, ABS, active head restraints--all standard on the Civic and some other competitors)
* Poor crash test results with standard equipment; mediocre with optional equipment (compared to, e.g., IIHS Good/Good/Good on Civic and Versa)
* Four-speed automatic vs. five-speed on Civic
* Lack of power vs. Civic (even though engines are the same size)
* Poor handling compared to the Civic
* Boring styling compared to the Civic

Still lost?

kenym

Most is of your post is your opinion. Soooo PURCHASE the Civic and be done with it. :shades:

backy

The only thing I said that is purely subjective is re the styling. If you think the current Corolla's styling is not boring, great.

The Corolla's poor driving position for many people and relatively poor handling vs. Civic etc. are widely-reported traits of the car, and I've experienced those traits when driving the car. Everything else is purely factual. If you want to point out anyplace I made a mistake of fact, go ahead.

I am not going to buy a Civic (too pricey for what you get IMO), or current Corolla (for reasons that should be obvious). I was just responding to a question from another poster who didn't understand why the current Corolla would be considered inferior to the Civic, and also pointing out some of the things Toyota should address in the next Corolla to make it more competitive in its class.

kenym

Everything else is purely factual. If you want to point out anyplace I made a mistake of fact, go ahead

* Terrible driving position for many drivers (e.g. lack of a telescopic steering wheel)
The key words in the above paragraph are "many drivers" However based on the number of Corolla's sold millions of drivers including myself don't have a problem with this.

* Lack of standard safety features (e.g. side air bags, side curtains, ABS, active head restraints--all standard on the Civic and some other competitors).
Log on to Honda.com price a Civic LX then log onto Toyota.com and price a Corolla S.
Using EXACTLY the same Safety Features ( mentioned above ) and options on both vehicles. Corolla's MSRP is $19,645 and Civics's MSRP is $19,510. ( A 135 dollar difference - definitely not a deal breaker ) Standard on one vehicle and optional on the other doesn't mean much if the MRSP on both vehicles are the same in the end.

* Lack of power vs. Civic (even though engines are the same size)
Neither of these vehicles are going to be mistaken for Road Racing machines. The Civic has 140 hp and the Corolla has 128 hp a difference of 12 hp. They are both rated at 40+ MPG highway and 30+ MPG City. I don't think people buy either of these vehicles to tow anything with. So not sure what the difference in lack of power would be.

* Poor handling compared to the Civic
Not sure what you based this on either. They are rated about the same in most categories.
Both have Rack and Pinion steering, Disc brakes, Curb Weight (lbs.) Civic 2804 - Corolla 2615, Wheelbase (in.) Civic 106.3 - Corolla 102.4, Length (in.) Civic 176.7 - Corolla 178.3, Width (in.) Civic 69.0 - Corolla 66.9, Height (in.) Civic 56.5 - Corolla 58.5, Headroom (Front, in.) Civic 38.1 - Corolla 39.3, Headroom (Rear, in.) Civic 36.7 - Corolla 37.1.

If you dislike the Corolla so much why do you spend so much time in this forum :shades: