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If Aura is watered down Vectra (and Vectra lost to older Mondeo), then I don't know I probably give up on GM. But actually I need to test drive to see the difference between Aura and Milan, comparos are okay but I need to decide for myself and interior design is important for me.
Just re-skinned G6 wouldn't work.
As for its underpinnings, the Epsilon chassis is pretty good (mostly Opel/Saab). Will the Aura ride/handling be more "euro" in terms of shock valving and spring rates (ala., like Saab and Opel) or more like the Malibu, or somewhere inbetween?
The Aura in top trim is likely to have Euro firm suspension tuning like the Vectra and Malibu SS. The base model is likely to be softer.
One of the things that ticks me off about Ford & GM is that (it appears) that their overseas products seem to have better features and shorter model life spans than do the models offered in GM & Fords home territory and this is simply unthinkable if you want your customer to believe you want them to have the very best.
For example, the Focus has been in the U.S. market for I guess over five years now, yet its still in it's first generation. However, since the Focus hit the U.S. the European counterpart has seen at least one significant model upgrade. (Don't quote me on that as I have not followed the Focus very much)
Also, the new Opel Astra has a fantastic feature that I would think GM would put in its new models. It’s a glass roof that extends from just beyond the front seats to the end of the windshield. It creates a view unmatched even by the best convertible, yet theres been no mention of it on any upcoming U.S. models. Why?
Additionally, GM has had OnStar on it’s cars for some years now. Within maybe the last 5 years we saw the imports put satellite navigation systems in most of their models. And finally, just last month GM announced that they'll offer turn-by-turn directions via OnStar. Why did they take so long to add this very helpful feature?
I mean the list goes on and on. Little missteps like these mean GM & Ford loose out on potential customers because they fail to be the very best. Being the worlds largest automaker means nothing if smaller companies continually serve your own butt to you at every competition.
Personally, I’ve owned to GM autos and would like to come back but it simply won’t happen until GM & Ford offer the same features or better than what I can find in an import and this is coming from a BIG GM Fan Boy! Problem is I got tired of betting on a loosing team.
It is true that the imports offer some key features (Nav, HIDs) on some lower end models but we all know that the overwhelming majority of family sedans do not have these features. In Europe "luxury" features are standard fare on mundane sedans so GM Europe has to offer the same features as their competitors. In america the average family sedan buyer isnt looking for HIDs, 19" wheels, sport suspensions or headlight washers. Toyota and Honda also cater to the Euro market by offering specific sizes, features and suspension tunings that dont always make it to America. The american buyer has somewhat lower standards and that is one reason why GM offers stuff in Europe they dont offer here. GM is going to start to change that with the new Saturns which will be similar to their euro cousins. I dont think GM's euro interiors are that great though. The interior of the Opel Vectra isnt anything to write home about, it's very dark and German like.
At no point in my post did I say people should buy imports because their gaining market share. I’d never say something so silly because I want to see Ford and GM thrive and become better than the competition. Where’d you see that? What I did do was make a statement about what I think is wrong with Ford and GM in general.
Ford and GM have ignored the wants and needs of the American consumer and Toyota, Honda & Nissan have steadily given consumers more than expected. That’s why people now choose imports over domestics. (My opinion)
You logic concerning the team with the most sales wins is a good point. But if profit keeps you in the game that logic is flawed. If you loose money on each sale, how can you make a profit or remain in business?
Your statement that “the average family sedan buyer isn’t looking for HIDs, 19" wheels, sport suspensions or headlight washers” I think is also wrong, but that’s a matter of opinion because neither of us has any facts to back it up.
If the American consumer has lower standards its only because they have not had the opportunity to drive some of the better vehicles on the road. Don’t get me wrong, my first two GM cars were great, but my current car; a 1999 Infiniti G20 gave me an entirely different perspective on getting what I pay for. And it’s probably why my next purchase will be another Nissan product.
You apparently miss completely the point of the Aura. It is the start of the Opel/Saturn product mix. As many stories on Edmunds, other internet auto sites, the auto magazines and the popular media stress, Saturn and Opel will be selling many of the same products starting with the Aura (which is slightly modified Vectra). The next Ion will be an Astra.
Additionally, GM has had OnStar on it’s cars for some years now. Within maybe the last 5 years we saw the imports put satellite navigation systems in most of their models. And finally, just last month GM announced that they'll offer turn-by-turn directions via OnStar. Why did they take so long to add this very helpful feature?
Nav systems are available on higher end GMs. The point to point OnStar is coming online now simply because the technology is now at a point where it is workable and profitable. Nav systems are not commonly available in the family car market the Aura will compete in, no matter the nationality of the brand. Moreover, the majority of the people who own cars with Nav systems opt not to get them on their new cars when they trade them in. A fact which suggests your emphasis on the importance of the nav systems to consumers overreaches.
Personally, I’ve owned to GM autos and would like to come back but it simply won’t happen until GM & Ford offer the same features or better than what I can find in an import and this is coming from a BIG GM Fan Boy! Problem is I got tired of betting on a loosing team.
You are aware that Nissan's market share has been dropping for the past several months? Perhaps reliability has more pull over gadgetry.
"Moreover, the majority of the people who own cars with Nav systems opt not to get them on their new cars when they trade them in. A fact which suggests your emphasis on the importance of the nav systems to consumers overreaches."
That all sounds good but unless you can back it up with a FACT, it is nothing more than your opinion.
Yes I know its available in Caddys. But the difference is that Honda is now offering it in the Civic EX and its satellite based not DVD based. While the Civic’s competition (the Cobalt & Ion) do not offer Nav at all. This is exactly the point I was making.
Ok, I’m not sure what the Aura is competing against but im gonna guess that it’s primary opponents will be the Camry, Accord, Altima and Fusion. All family sedans would you agree? Well satellite nav is offered in the Accord EX, Camry SE & LE, on certain Altimas and unless I missed it its not available at all on the Fusion. Will GM offer it on the Aura? I'd think they should if they want to compete.
No, I don’t have any clue at all what Nissan’s market share is but I do know that my current Nissan product gives me a better owner experience than either my 89 Baretta and 98 Tracker, both of which I loved.
Every article I have seen (about 15 to date) on the Opel/Saturn cross over say the only significant difference between the cars will be the badge.
That all sounds good but unless you can back it up with a FACT, it is nothing more than your opinion.
This makes no sense. I am stating a fact. A fact which I recently read in articles in the Chicago Tribune and New York Times. If you have information which contradicts, you need to offer it.
But the difference is that Honda is now offering it in the Civic EX and its satellite based not DVD based. While the Civic’s competition (the Cobalt & Ion) do not offer Nav at all. This is exactly the point I was making.
New Civic sales as a whole are flat. How many people are ordering Civics with Nav systems?
Well satellite nav is offered in the Accord EX, Camry SE & LE, on certain Altimas and unless I missed it its not available at all on the Fusion. Will GM offer it on the Aura? I'd think they should if they want to compete.
And the Nav systems is the primary reason people have bought the cars you mention? Again, how many people are ordering the cars mentioned with them?
current Nissan product gives me a better owner experience than either my 89 Baretta and 98 Tracker, both of which I loved.
The quality of all cars over the last five to seven years is exponentially better than those that came before.
Time will tell. I’ll be standing by eagerly to see if GM puts the glass roof feature in the Ion.
"This makes no sense. I am stating a fact. A fact which I recently read in articles in the Chicago Tribune and New York Times. If you have information which contradicts, you need to offer it."
That’s just the point. I didn’t say that anything was a fact. I said that you should offer up the evidence to support what you said which was; “Moreover, the majority of the people who own cars with Nav systems opt not to get them on their new cars when they trade them in. A fact which suggests your emphasis on the importance of the nav systems to consumers overreaches.”
You made reference to a fact, not me. All im saying is back it up. If you read it online, it should not be difficult to do a quick search to verify your claim. If you can do that I will gladly back off.
“New Civic sales as a whole are flat. How many people are ordering Civics with Nav systems?”
Sweet Jeses dude.....you’re not focused on my point. That point is; Why do GM & Ford not offer the same options as the competition? I’m not saying that they have to have it standard but at least offer it. This has nothing to do with how many people actually buy or even use the systems. But, if someone is considering a GM or Ford but can’t find a particular option they want then Ford or GM may loose that sale because their product did not offer that option. Do you understand my point?
“And the Nav systems is the primary reason people have bought the cars you mention? Again, how many people are ordering the cars mentioned with them?”
Look back at my previous posts and ask yourself how many times I stated that nav systems are the primary reason people bought their cars?
“The quality of all cars over the last five to seven years is exponentially better than those that came before.”
In post number 205 I stated: “GM is doing good in the reliability field but needs to bring serious thought to Design if they ever wish to win customers.” I didn’t say anything about quality being bad.
n.b.: There is a good chance the next entry level Saturn will be called the Astra. Several keen eyed GM bloggers have posted links to Saturn formally trademarking 'Astra' for the US market.
You made reference to a fact, not me. All im saying is back it up. If you read it online, it should not be difficult to do a quick search to verify your claim. If you can do that I will gladly back off.
Read it in hard copy. I've been posting here for more than 6 years and have never had anyone challenge the reliability of sources I've recounted.
Why do GM & Ford not offer the same options as the competition? I’m not saying that they have to have it standard but at least offer it. This has nothing to do with how many people actually buy or even use the systems. But, if someone is considering a GM or Ford but can’t find a particular option they want then Ford or GM may loose that sale because their product did not offer that option. Do you understand my point?
Cannot say much about Ford, but GM does offer something the competition does not: OnStar. GM has been the sole telematics provider in the industry for what, seven or eight years now?
Look back at my previous posts and ask yourself how many times I stated that nav systems are the primary reason people bought their cars?
You seem to be talking about it a lot.
In post number 205 I stated: “GM is doing good in the reliability field but needs to bring serious thought to Design if they ever wish to win customers.” I didn’t say anything about quality being bad.
Well, your point was that you are happier with what you have now than what you had. My reply is that just about everyone should be happier with their recent purchases than what they had in the past. Even the fairly recent past.
If it’s available in print, chances are it can be found on the net via the same source.
“Cannot say much about Ford, but GM does offer something the competition does not: OnStar. GM has been the sole telematics provider in the industry for what, seven or eight years now?”
Exactly! GM cars that have OnStar already have some of the hardware available to offer navigation systems. So, it makes one wonder, why GM did not go a step farther by including this extra feature until now.
“You seem to be talking about it a lot.”
Just using it as an example to try to get my point across.
“Well, your point was that you are happier with what you have now than what you had. My reply is that just about everyone should be happier with their recent purchases than what they had in the past. Even the fairly recent past.”
I don’t disagree with that at all.
As I said, I read the reports in the NYTimes and Chicago Tribune (indeed, I believe the NYTimes piece was actually about the new OnStar service and offered the stats on repeat Nav system buyers as a possible downside to GM's expectations). Unfortunately, both these sources cap access to past articles at around 5 days. Anything older, you need to pay.
So, it makes one wonder, why GM did not go a step farther by including this extra feature until now.
Technology improvements have made the service far more reliable than it would have been in the past.
How exactly is the average 4 cylinder Accord or Camry giving their owners more than expected? You get dull styling, OK handling, decent acceleration, average sound systems, wheel covers and the pleasure of knowing that 30 other people at the grocery store will have the exact same car. I think people have such high opinions of import vehicles that there is nothing that could happend that would deter them from buying another one. Car & Driver had a long term RL ($50k) with 8 total dealer visits and they still loved it. Can you imagine if that was a $25K American car?
"Your statement that “the average family sedan buyer isn’t looking for HIDs, 19" wheels, sport suspensions or headlight washers” I think is also wrong, but that’s a matter of opinion because neither of us has any facts to back it up. "
The facts are that the majority of American midsize sedans are not sold with the high end features you so crave. The Camry is the best selling car in America and does not offer any high tech European inspired features. It is softly sprung, doesn't offer HIDS, has wide unbolstered seats designed for long distance comfort, has high profile tires and 17" wheels (SE only) and it's styling is about as dull and un-Euro as you can get.
BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if the Fusion gets navigation this year or next. Ford is going to add more features throughout the life cycle including AWD, 18" wheels and other things.
I always love when people are quick to point out the features american cars lack, but cant ever seem to keep track of the features they offer that arent found on Japanese competitors. The Altima doesnt have traction or stability control, but no one cares. The Accord just got stability for 2006. The 2006 camry didn't have stability or traction control available on any model but it was never mentioned. None of those 3 vehicles have onstar or remote start and the altima/Accord don't have MP3 jacks like many GM vehicles. A lot of import cars dont have RDS and you can't get 18" wheels on an Accord or Camry. None of them offer the panoramic sunroof from the G6/Aura. None of them offer a hardtop convertible model like the G6. The Camry doesnt offer XM radio but you can get it on a Cobalt. Several GM vehicles in this class have fold flat front passenger seats (great idea I think) but you can't get that on a Camry/Accord/Altima. Nav and HIDs are great, but they are not the only way to measure the relevance of a particular vehicle. Rarely, if ever, will you read any review that calls out missing features on a Japanese cars.
Nave Systems were just an example. It was not the basis of my point. Can you understand that?
The reason why im beating up on GM because they don't offer it now is because their competitors do. A good business strategy thrives on its ability to stay ahead of the competition.
Rather than get hostile, you might want to rethink why your example is drawing the response it is. You probably would have fared better using a different example. Nav systems are something a lot of people talk about in Edmunds. Not surprising, really, as you have a lot of tech types here. The reality is that they a gee whiz feature that most people do not use in their daily life. They sure help in rentals when you are in an unfamiliar city, though.
I think the real issue for both GM and Ford has been they lacked the money to do some of the unexciting but user friendly things that Toyota and Honda have been doing. Things like thicker guage steel, extra insulation, nicer dash panels, higher quality upholstery. It is not so much that an Accord has a Nav or HID headlight option, but that it looks and feels nicer than the GMs of yore.
The Aura concept is a very nice looking vehicle. Some insiders are saying the real thing will look even better. If this is true, and if the price stays in the CamCord range rather than the 9-3/TSX range, then GM will have a winner.
IMO, it is an overall feel of quality for the buck GM and Ford need, not a doodad that looks cool on the test drive but you never use all that much in your day to day driving life.
That said, stereos with blue tooth features are pretty nice doodads, now that many places are making it illegal to use your cell phone without a hands free option.
"I think the real issue for both GM and Ford has been they lacked the money to do some of the unexciting but user friendly things that Toyota and Honda have been doing......."
Just in case you don't know it.....You just backed up my primary point. But instead of admitting from the beginning that what I was saying had some validity; you chose to attack me as if im the bad guy for stating the obvious.
The Aura does look great. As I said earlier im a big GM fan boy, but unlike you I still possess the ability to see things through my own eyes.
First, I never attacked you. I disagreed with you. This forum is for debate on subjects concerning autos. You stated a premise, I countered.
Second, respectfully, you did not state your initial thesis in a way that your point was clear. Rather, you listed specific makes of cars, including the Nissan Altima, that had Nav systems and suggested Ford and GM were missing the mark.
In fact, Nissan does not do all that well with the unexciting, but user friendly content I mention above. Nissan autos have quality and reliability issues. They look cool and push the features. This worked for a while. Now all of sudden, Nissan sales are coming back down to Earth. I believe the reason is that Nissan, much like Ford and GM in the past, does not concentrate enough on the guage of the sheet metal under the car, the thickness of the sound insulation, and the rubber and plastic on the dash, etc.
GM appears to be paying a lot more attention to this recently. Its newer models that show it, such as the Cobalt, Buick Lucerne, Pontiac Solstice and Sky, the big SUVs, are selling well with little support. The Aura just may be one step further in this direction as well.
Long and short, the way you were stated your argument, it appeared you wanted GM to go the Nissan way, a lot of flash, but ignoring the basics. I think that is exactly what GM should not do. Improving the looks of its cars and adding baubles most drivers think are cool but rarely use has some value. Driving quality into the heart of the car has ultimate value.
I was not blind to anything. What I heard you say was exactly what I do not think GM should do.
I agree with many of the posts here, both that GM/Ford (US) lacks in offering some of the "flashy" features found in the foreign cars, and I never realised all of the things GM offerred intehre cars that none of the foreign cars do. I mean, I just assumed Altima has T/C and Stability. How could it not? wow. I never realised just how many features, given this paragraph:
I always love when people are quick to point out the features american cars lack, but cant ever seem to keep track of the features they offer that arent found on Japanese competitors. The Altima doesnt have traction or stability control, but no one cares. The Accord just got stability for 2006. The 2006 camry didn't have stability or traction control available on any model but it was never mentioned. None of those 3 vehicles have onstar or remote start and the altima/Accord don't have MP3 jacks like many GM vehicles. A lot of import cars dont have RDS and you can't get 18" wheels on an Accord or Camry. None of them offer the panoramic sunroof from the G6/Aura. None of them offer a hardtop convertible model like the G6. The Camry doesnt offer XM radio but you can get it on a Cobalt. Several GM vehicles in this class have fold flat front passenger seats (great idea I think) but you can't get that on a Camry/Accord/Altima. Nav and HIDs are great, but they are not the only way to measure the relevance of a particular vehicle. Rarely, if ever, will you read any review that calls out missing features on a Japanese cars.
I also agree on the interrior materials front, where GM and Ford need to spend more time making things thicker and have a more quality feel. I know that most people do not buy all of the high end models, but npgmbr has a point.
The thing is, when many people (esp. 'young' ppl like me) see these cars, and see the honda has a NAV system, and voice activated controlls for the CD player, to me it seems light years ahead of a car that does not even offer these features, yet competes in the same price category. Therefore when someone like me buys a car, they might choose the honda for that modern image, as well as of course the reputation.
The biggest problem w/GM is that Union and previous managment giving in to it. This is for another discsussion and of course the healthcare nightmare in the USA. They have the quality now, they need the image. They need for people to see GM in a different light.
Saturn was the GM brand that could be sold to people who usually buy foreign. It is very important to get this car right, put in ALL the options they possibly can. This car could help GM considerably.
Also, GM cannot continue to allow foreign co's to establish healthy dealer networks. The more dealers they have, the more cars they will sell. I do not know how GM could stop this. I know Catterpillar did this in the 80's through drastic measures.
Because if you take a step back and look at cars in general, in the same class they are the same. They are generally of similar quality and feature content, give and take a nav system or a fold down seat. Many people buy cars due to the location of the dealership, or service center. even 10 years ago, the average USA car was (IMO) bigger and better than the foreign cars. Today they are about equal, and GM and Ford need to band together to stop the spread of these foerign centers. That is what is REALLY making GM and Ford loose market share. The foreign cars are expanding into new segments and having more dealerships.
This Aura is a VERY VERY VERY important car. If it really comes out w/AT LEAST 250 hp (now it probably needs even more bb/c camry has 268) and a 6 speed auto with manual mode, DVD NAV, two tone leather, T/C stability control, and the works. If they can keep the price DOWN, then meybe GM will win some share back.
The long term, however, is the distribution. Japan keeps foreign companies (thats us, BTW) out due to the difficulty of distribution access.
Why we dont fight fire with fire is strange to me.
We already know the Aura will have most of the features people are talking about here. The only thing we dont know about is nav at this point and we wont know until the NY auto show. There is no reason to say you "hope" the Aura has a 6 speed, 250hp engine, stability, etc. because it will have those things. I can virtually guarantee you it wont have HIDs though.
As for plastic quality, I think GM is doing a respectable job lately. I think that the 2005 and 2006 GM vehicles are more than competitive in terms of interior materials. As I said earlier, I was not impressed by the interiors of the Fusion and Milan. Everything from their steering wheels to their head units appears dated and a step behind the competition.
A year or so to go and we'll know...
I'm not sure that generation X, Y and beyond will move from whatever they are driving now to slip into a Buick. Nothings wrong with Buick other than it not really connecting with people my age. Personally, if I wanted to move up I'd go from any other GM brand to Cadillac. But thats my choice.
I also don't know that the quality of the Vectra is better than current GM offerings. The interiors of the Lacrosse, Lucerne, Vue, Torrent, STS, Impala, etc. are pretty nice.
Time will tell!
"Going forward, Saturns and Opels will differ only in badge and perhaps some invisible regulatory compliance parts."
In the past, component differences between Opel and related cars in the US had as much to do with costs inherent to necessary engineering changes to make the transplants compliant. Something that happens frequently when a car designed originally for one market only is brought to a new market mid-cycle. In other words, exactly what GM did with the Monaro GTO.
Designing cars at the start for both markets should eliminate much of the price pressures that keep luxury items out the US Opels.
Saturn will do fine if it maintains its mission as an import fighter. Imports excel at three things; price, quality, and fuel economy. Saturn, after expanding its product line, must drive R&D effrts to compete in these key areas. Everything else will take care of itself.
There seems to be a lot of speculation and confusion about the powertrains. Some are saying the base engine will now be the 3.6 DOHC, not the 3.5L OHV engine. Others are saying the 3.5L will be offered with 230hp as a base powerplant.
Usually production marketing only has the top model in it save for something like a future sport model (i.e. Redline). So I'd say we can expect the top engine in the Aura to produce 248hp with a base engine south of that. 230 is too close to 248 so it would have to be somewhat south of that number. How much more would people really pay for only a 18hp boost? Sometime after the first model year we'll get a Redline with hp north of the 248 number.
My question is, is 248 enough in that market. I'd say if the model with 248 is priced around $27K-$30K, it may work well. Above that you will run into real trouble. I don't think an Aura will stack up nicely against a 3-Series, a CTS (especially the new one coming out, did everyone see that, boy is that a beauty), an Acura TL (starting at 33k very nicely equipped), a Merc C-Class, and the 298hp standard G35 (with a new model to be unveiled next week with 300+ standard running horses). The Lincoln Zephyr and VW Passat are carving a nice niche in that piece of the market in my opinion. That $26K - $30K league isn't bad.
I would spend more than $27K on any of them Zephyr or Aura. For a Passat I'd spend even less. But that's me. At $50K, have my Infiniti cleaned and ready please.
248hp should be more than enough to compete with the 221hp Fusion, the 235hp Sonata and the 244hp Accord. Just because the Camry now has 268 doesnt mean 248 isn't substantial. That would make it one of the top three most powerful V6 cars in this price range.
I think that would be a poor move. I think the Aura and Saturn as a whole are moving upscale. GM has the Malibu and the G6 to compete head to head with the Accord/Camry in base 4 cylinder form. I think the Aura would just add more mud in already muddy waters. I think the Aura should be going up against the premium models. The Legacy, the Passat, the Zephyr, the TSX, the top model Accord v6, the top model Camry V6 (that car is $30K mind you) and I think from all I have heard that is what it is built to do.
"I have seen info suggesting the base engine could have between 230-248hp and a top engine with 265-279hp."
Who is going to buy a Malibu SS or a G6 GTP (both starting at 24K and 240hp) if an Aura with 248hp horse is the same money and from a premium brand? The production photo says the Aura has 248hp. Can't we look at the Sky and Solstice as an example. The Sky carries a $3K premium. Shouldn't the Aura carry a similar premium on a g6?
"248hp should be more than enough to compete with the 221hp Fusion, the 235hp Sonata and the 244hp Accord. Just because the Camry now has 268 doesnt mean 248 isn't substantial."
I don't think a Fusion and a Sonata are in the same league. I actually like the Fusion but I wouldn't put it in the same league as the Aura. And the Sonata... no way. The MKZ (it's dumb, I know) is testing at 255hp, the Passat has 280hp but the 200hp in the base model are German purebred horses that make that car move at a surprising rate (it has more to do with the fact that the Passat is so light but the horses have been drugged too), you have the top line Camry with 268, and all within the same price point. Within the top ring, the Aura may be near the bottom as far as power is concerned. That would not be a good thing. We don't need one of the domestics classic, "oh a better one is coming that will be competitive, take this one here for now."
The Aura is not going to be competing with a Passat V6 sedan that goes up to $40K fully loaded. The Passat is in a different price and power league. The Aura will probably compete with the 200hp Passat which is right in the heart of the Aura's price range. Saturn isnt really going that far upmarket because they dont want to get into Buicks territory. Saturn is trying to offer premium products at affordable prices that just above Chevy and Pontiac. I wouldn expect huge price premiums over comparable Chevys and Pontiacs.
How could the Aura be at the bottom with 248hp? That makes no sense. I just established the Fusion, Sonata, Accord and Mazda 6 have less power. If you really want to talk about the most powerful cars in this price range than you would have to mention the Impala SS and Grand Prix GXP. They leave everyone else behind in terms of hp. I dont think people are not going to buy the Aura if it doesnt have the most hp in class, afterall the majority of Accords, Camrys and Altimas sold are four cylinders. You can rest assured that the base Aura will have much more power than a comparable 4 cylinder import. I think making the V6 standard is a great move on their part.
Just like with honda/toyota, the headlines will make people come to the showroom, and leave with the base models. This is very important. GM is getting itself in line. Kick it people!
With mid-20's pricing, 80k would be a very good start. Maybe Ecotec will come later.
DrFill
Has anyone checked out the details yet?