Got a price of $28,947 for a Limited V6. Leather, heated seats, 6 CD changer, DRL, airbags, moonroof, tow package, floor mats, auto-dim mirror, wheel locks, mudflaps. Almost loaded. What do you guys think?
Frank, I think I am going to try an experiment. I am going to fill up, drive about 90 miles highway at 65 and fill up again and see what I've got. All things being equal, my mpg should be close to yours. What part of the country are you in an what is the temp there? I am wondering if something else might be going on with my rav though. I got an oil change a couple weeks ago and just checked the level, it looks like it's about 3/4 inch above the top dot. I think they overfilled it. Anyone know if that is bad or how bad. Also check my trans fluid while I was at it, there was crud or rust or some other metal looking junk on the dipstick. I don't think that should be there in a month old car. Maybe that is the cause of the trans. thud.
Well the MSRP would be about $30500 so your doing ok since they are hard to come by and harder with leather. Buy if it you like it and it has everything you want on it
a little overfilled is ok but don't be a quart overfilled. They prolly put in 5 quarts and its aprox. 4.5 with a new filter.. The trans got me thinking something is not good tho..
Im in pa and its in the 30's now but was in the 20's both times we got 30 mpg. Remember I used the cruise control..
Made the plunge... got a Silver one with the JBL stereo upgrade, wheel locks, Side/Curtain airbags, tonneau/cargo net, car mats, daytime running lights, and tow package. $26,124. SHOP AROUND, and be willing to go outside your local area. Put out 25 - 30 queries via the Toyota website. Got some really, really bad offers ("Only sell at MSRP"), and got some really, really good standouts: Broadway Toyota of Portland (OR) and Mountain States Toyota of Denver.
On the bad side... One dealership said they had a GUARANTEE to "meet and beat any price ... even after the sale" (yes, those are quotes) and even put that guarantee IN WRITING. Gladly accepted my $1000 credit card charge to hold a future vehicle (since they were out of stock) and promised invoice + $700. Turns out that in that dealer's math, it actually equalled invoice + $1099.
Found a better price for a vehicle in stock at another dealership, and the 1st one refused to either meet or beat the price, AND, they refused to credit my card back. Why? Well, they felt they met their "meet and beat any price even after the sale" becuase (again, quotes) "we feel we fulfilled that guarantee because we made a good faith effort to negotiate with you." That little philosophy somehow failed to show up in their written guarantee. Un-flippin' believable... like it won't be hard to dispute that credit card charge.
Who was that bad dealership you ask? Elway Toyota of Denver. I'm working with a consumer advocacy program to go after them, but felt this forum should be forewarned of doing business with them -- at least until they make amends.
Alright, I just did my experiment. I'm in MI, weather is clear, about 31 degrees. First, I bought a pump thing and emptied out about a half quart of oil. Then I filled up using a certain pump, put the handle on the first notch and let it stop on its own. Then I drove about 37 miles one way at 65-66mph, turned around and did the same back to the same gas station and the same pump and the same technique. (I know, sounds like a lot of wasted time, but night is the only time I get a chance to do anything. That and the traffic would be ok for a solid 65mph.) Results: 29.5 mpg. I cannot believe it. So it's either the oil or the speed or both. I cannot drive 65 most times so I'm hoping it's the oil. Thanks for all the advice so far and I'll keep everybody posted on any changes. If anyone else finds gunk on their trans fluid dipstick please post.
Can someone explain to me what teh "Immobilizer and prewire" is that comes as a standard safety feature on the RAV4 limited models? (Its listed in Toyotas brochure).
I've heard numerous complaints about John Elway's dealerships over the years. Most have included outrageous, unethical and unscrupulous behavior similar to what you experienced. You'd think a popular sports figure would be more protective of his "good" name.
Colorado State laws are part of the problem. Car dealers are overwhelmingly favored when it comes to any dispute between a customer and the dealer. I purchased a truck while living inn Denver a few years ago and the dealer (not John Elway) falsified the paperwork. I looked into the governing laws and there was nothing I could do. Basically the the law was written so if I didn't catch the false information before signing the paperwork, the state law assumed I was the one falsifying information.
You should have no trouble with your credit card company, though. It's also a good idea send a letter to the Colorado Attorney General's office and register a formal complaint with the local BBB. The BBB in particular requires a formal response from the dealership before they close the case. If they get enough complaints of this type, it will eventually affect Elway's rating AND sales.
I just purchased a base model and I shopped all the dealers in the Denver area, except elway since I have heard negative things about them. I did all my shopping over the phone by calling the internet sales person for each dealership and getting a $ over invoice price.
I ended up purchasing from mountain states. The lady who does the internet sales there is very straight forward and down to earth. I paid $500 over invoice, no dealer prep fee which they will try to tack on. Very easy buying experience, no hassles at all. The finance guy was also very easy to work with. Before buying I got prices for the platinum 7/100 warranty from other dealers around the country and mountain states sold it to me at $1 over cost and matched my gap insurance quote. They couldn't match my APR from my credit union so I didn't finance through them. No problems taking the car that night.
If you come prepared, in a matter of minutes they will work out the costs with you very quick and get you on your way. Once they know you are prepared they want nothing more then to sell the car at your price and get it out of there as quick as possible.
There is a chip in your key that will not allow the engine to start unless you use that key.. If someone jams your ignition and manages to get it turned it still will not start. Its a form of security system on the Limited.
I am thinking about getting the V6 and am wondering if it is indeed quieter than the 4 cylinder engine. The mileage is supposed to be slightly better in the 4 cyl on the highway and a bit more for city driving. However, if it's not that much of a difference, I might go for the V6...but only if the ride is nicer and the engine noise lower.
I know if I'm going to tow something big or just tow alot the v-6 is the only way to go, but I want to know if I'm only going to tow 1500 lbs or less if the v-4 would be ok. We will only tow a small pop-up less than 6 times a year although we will have to go over a few mountains to get where we will go. I really want the best mpg I can have, when I'm not towing. Do you think the v-4 can handle it without feeling like I'm not going to make it up the mountian?
I'm not an expert in this area, but we will be towing a pop-up as well. Based on my experience pulling ours up into the mountains, I do not think I'd want to rely on a 4 cylinder car to do the job--its puts a pretty good strain on the engine when going up-hill. My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that the towing limits on these vehicles is set based on going on flat roads--thus, you should take this into consideration when you will be pulling it up a mountain. (Of course, pop-ups are all different sizes and weights). Just my opinion.
Frank: I agree with you! I have never owned a Toyota in my life but have driven 5 or 6 RAV4s now with one being a V6. Both engines are so quiet and smooth you can barely hear them running at idle. Both are very,very smooth a cruise speed. If I heard much of anything it was exhaust noise mostly with fast (large throttle )accelerations. The I4 seemed quick and powerful. The V6 was very quick and powerful. The v6 is only if you want max fun at low cost (that is me) or have to haul or tow heavy loads in very hilly country. That will be a small group of people.
Some of the comments here and on the MSN auto reviews have people commenting that the V6 is "too powerfull"...or "takes getting used to at take off."
I really don't know what all the noise fuss is about.
Well it would be rather hard for us to answer this, as that will also depend on all the variables such as how many people, what gear you're taking, what the grade of the road is, and what else is in the popup. usually when camping, people take a lot of stuff. you may not even have a good dea of the weight of all this.
So now look at your options. If you pick the 4-cyl you are more likely to not have sufficient power; whereas the V-6 sounds more than adequate for your needs. Take a chance, or don't take a chance - seems like a simple choice. Frankly even if the 4-cyl can make it, I think it'll be at reduced speed, and running high rpms in 2nd or 3rd gear. You're talking another 10% of cost to get much more power - go for it.
I towed my 1300lb boat with our 2003 AWD Matrix and 1998 RAV (both were rated for 1500lbs). It was done on an occasional basis. You could feel it but not to the extent where it was cumbersome. No matter which one you choose, driving while towing will always be different. Based on your description of needs, it sounds like you should have no problems. The other thing to remember is the difference in payload between the 4 and the 6.
Your experience is very very well known. It's one of the reasons that the 4c CamCords are sooo popular. At cruising speed they are dead quiet. Only in hard acceleration do you know that you have a 4 banger instead of a 6. This new iteration is very very good. Imagine it in the new '07 Camry as the base engine!!
I've also heard that it will/might(?) be in the '07 Matrix next Sept. It's also the base engine in the Scion tC. It is a very remarkable engine, as is the Honda version.
The V6, I agree, is a special situation for people with spcific wants/needs; e.g. constant towing, the belief that anything smaller than a V6 belongs in a lawnmower or the desire for a pocket rocket in the shape of a lamb.
I'm sure the 4 cyl is fine for everyday use as long as your happy wiith mundane driving. But I thought the question was about using a 4cyl to go camping.
I'm considering that you're taking a 3,500 Lb vehicle losing power to the auto. transmission, and possibly to the AWD system, adding 4 people (700 Lb?), add their luggage, and then put a 1000+ lb trailer on it, and have some mountain climbing. This is not the same as driving a Scion Tc to the mall. I certainly wouldn't be happy going up the mountain at 30mph at 5000 rpm in a 4 cyl. as I envision. Not when you can correct that issue for slightly more money. If the V-6 cost $5K more and drop the fuel economy 25% I would say yeah now maybe, maybe go for the 4 cyl.
The 4-cyl. is rated for 1500 lbs. You're right on the V6, its 2000, or 3500 with the Tow Prep Package.
The amazing thing is that on the 4x4, the highway mileage rating is the same for both! So, for $2000 you get over 100hp more and don't lose mileage on the highway.
Well the RPMs with the V6 at cruise are very low..2000 at 70. But you will have to drive with a lite foot to get that milage. But then you will still have afterburner when you want it!
Bye the way, Fitzmall has two V6s in stock now. One is $500 over invoice and one loaded Limited is about $2000 over invoice!
you: The amazing thing is that on the 4x4, the highway mileage rating is the same for both!
me: That's probably because the V-6 has the 5th gear, and has the torque to be geared more conservatively. At any given highway speed the V-6 will be turning lower rpm's.
If you were to consider the engines to have equal expected number of rpm's in their life, the V-6 should be expected to have a longer life. There is nothing like high rpm driving to wear-out an engine prematurely; racing engines being an extreme example having an extremely short life - maybe 1,000 miles before rebuild is necessary.
And here's some common-sense from Jeep; see the "Engine Capacity" section. This site is discussing pulling a trailer with 1 horse aboard. My wife has a horse and you can figure about 1,200 + the trailer which may total 2K Lb. http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/safetowing/vehicle.htm
There is no documented proof that a Toyota V6 engine will last longer than a Toyota 4cyl engine (driven under the same conditions and in the same fashion). Also there is no truth to the blanket statement "There is nothing like high rpm driving to wear-out an engine prematurely". That's may apply to some other manufacturer's vehicles (or with racing engines as you stated). However, I can assure you that it doesn't apply to Toyota's (these are not race cars). In fact, some of Toyota's 4cyl engines have been more reliable than their 6's. These smaller engines may rev a little higher, but they don't rev any where near the dangerous red line zone (again, they are not race cars). It is not unsual for either engine to have 3, 4, or 5 hundred thousand miles on them. The key is regular oil changes.
Sorry, Toyota doesn't have a "super-metal" squirreled away for its 4-cyl. engines that they don't put in their other engines; or that other companies can't buy.
Engines wear based on rpm's. The lower the rpm's the less friction which produces wear, if no other variables. I'm no t an expert on Toyota engines, but I've never heard where Toyota's 4-cyl engines have some secret low-friction material. This is physics, not subjective. But if you don't believe me -
"What is the point of a high top gear (low ratio), if it reduces the engine torque?
The gearbox also changes engine revs, in inverse proportion to the ratio, so that as you change through the gearbox, the engine revs are reduced. A high top gear enables higher cruising speeds to be maintained at lower engine revs, thus reducing wear." From: http://www.cartoday.com/content/technical/jake_venter/details.asp?id=38
Any mechanical item will wear-out quicker the more it is used and the harder it is used. The laws of physics are not influenced by sentiment.
You only get similar mileage if you never take advantage of the extra power. There is no rule that says and engine only has xRPMs in it's life and the V6 takes more energy and stress to make one RPM anyway, so it is not that simplistic. If you feel you need the extra power for towing and for the thrill of extra fast acceleration and don't care about the lost mileage from those practices, then get the V6. You can't use the V6's extra power and still get mileage close the 4 cylinder no matter what the window sticker says.
RPM at cruising speeds has very little to do with how much wear an engine is going to have.
You need to take into consideration how much side wall load is on the piston/rings and cyclinder do to rod ratio, balance of the engine, type of oil vs. extreme cold starts, is the engine raced to redline everyday, maintenance, design of the engine and materials etc......
Anyone remember the 22r(e) motor from toyota??? IMHO it was way better then the V6 motor they put in the trucks. It had fewer problems and lasted longer on average.
For all practical purposes, either engine should go to 200k miles which I think would take care of about 98% of everybodies needs.
Any way, the longevity of these engines shouldn't even be a consideration when deciding on the I4 or V6. There is absolutely no way to say wether one is better then the other from a longevity stand point. You should get the motor that meets your everyday driving needs.
In practice nearly noone ever reaches the fatigue level you mention. I might in 10 yrs at 40K /yr but at that level the rest of the vehicle is worthless anyway.
250K mi, with plenty to spare, is a safe estimate for the V6 or the 4c. I know I've done it nearly 4 times. I'll let you know on the Prius in 4-1/2 more years.
The arguement sounds good in theory, but you are making several MAJOR assumptions that you don't mention. 1. The engine failing part is always a "wear" part in a velocity-sensitive application and not a fatigued part or otherwise stressed part. 2. All parts in the two engines have the same strength and duty rating. 3. Load is the same (1 vs 4 passengers? Towing?...) 4. Component design flaws and manufacture defects occurs at the same rate. 5. Velocity related wear is the only failure mode. (If both engines ran the same RPM would you believe the 4 cul was more reliable due to fewer parts or the 6cyl was more reliable because each cylinder had less work to do?)
An example of items that can also affect failure: Are the bearings the same dimension? Are there the same number of bearings? Are the belts the same strength? Does one engine have higher compression? Are the same number of parts in each engine which could fail? What are the failure modes of each engine (does one have additional ways to fail (i.e. interfernce valve clearance). How do you define engine failure (Needs major re-build? Needs Head gasket? Engine needs replacement?)
I know it sound like a rant, but it is really a topic that I don't think is as simple as 4cyl. vs 6cyl or 1000 vs 1200rpm.
Ranting aside and all things being equal, I would tend to beleive the 6cyl would be more reliable (even though it likely has more parts, it probably has more bearings to handle the load and each cylinder has less work to do. The lower RPM would be a little "gravy" in the fact that it wuld help the fuel economy when cruising. I'd be lying if I wouldn't love the extra hp which I think has been a missing feature on Toyota in the past. :P
sorry but its not how it works all the time. I remember my Dads old 1981 Accord with a 3 speed automatic(no lock up converter) and that engine revved like mad at highway speeds. I remember seeing the tach hoover north of 3500 rpm for hours at a time on the highway. Guess what? That engine laster over 200k miles..
That's pretty good. That's FWD, and not AWD right? I typically get EPA or above mpg on my vehicles even though I cruise relatively fast, avoiding heavy throttle applications for the most part.
I would expect to get mid 20's combiined and close to 30mpg on the V-6 AWD. If I don't think so, I may consider getting the FJ Cruiser, as it has better capabilities for extreme circumstances I run into (Higher tow rating, better ground clearance, and AT tires would be nice). But you have some tradeoffs such as mpg.
Comments
Leather, heated seats, 6 CD changer, DRL, airbags, moonroof, tow package, floor mats, auto-dim mirror, wheel locks, mudflaps.
Almost loaded.
What do you guys think?
Buy if it you like it and it has everything you want on it
The trans got me thinking something is not good tho..
Im in pa and its in the 30's now but was in the 20's both times we got 30 mpg. Remember I used the cruise control..
On the bad side... One dealership said they had a GUARANTEE to "meet and beat any price ... even after the sale" (yes, those are quotes) and even put that guarantee IN WRITING. Gladly accepted my $1000 credit card charge to hold a future vehicle (since they were out of stock) and promised invoice + $700. Turns out that in that dealer's math, it actually equalled invoice + $1099.
Found a better price for a vehicle in stock at another dealership, and the 1st one refused to either meet or beat the price, AND, they refused to credit my card back. Why? Well, they felt they met their "meet and beat any price even after the sale" becuase (again, quotes) "we feel we fulfilled that guarantee because we made a good faith effort to negotiate with you." That little philosophy somehow failed to show up in their written guarantee. Un-flippin' believable... like it won't be hard to dispute that credit card charge.
Who was that bad dealership you ask? Elway Toyota of Denver. I'm working with a consumer advocacy program to go after them, but felt this forum should be forewarned of doing business with them -- at least until they make amends.
tidester, host
Colorado State laws are part of the problem. Car dealers are overwhelmingly favored when it comes to any dispute between a customer and the dealer. I purchased a truck while living inn Denver a few years ago and the dealer (not John Elway) falsified the paperwork. I looked into the governing laws and there was nothing I could do. Basically the the law was written so if I didn't catch the false information before signing the paperwork, the state law assumed I was the one falsifying information.
You should have no trouble with your credit card company, though. It's also a good idea send a letter to the Colorado Attorney General's office and register a formal complaint with the local BBB. The BBB in particular requires a formal response from the dealership before they close the case. If they get enough complaints of this type, it will eventually affect Elway's rating AND sales.
I ended up purchasing from mountain states. The lady who does the internet sales there is very straight forward and down to earth. I paid $500 over invoice, no dealer prep fee which they will try to tack on. Very easy buying experience, no hassles at all. The finance guy was also very easy to work with. Before buying I got prices for the platinum 7/100 warranty from other dealers around the country and mountain states sold it to me at $1 over cost and matched my gap insurance quote. They couldn't match my APR from my credit union so I didn't finance through them. No problems taking the car that night.
If you come prepared, in a matter of minutes they will work out the costs with you very quick and get you on your way. Once they know you are prepared they want nothing more then to sell the car at your price and get it out of there as quick as possible.
Frank
I agree with you! I have never owned a Toyota in my life but have driven 5 or 6 RAV4s now with one being a V6. Both engines are so quiet and smooth you can barely hear them running at idle. Both are very,very smooth a cruise speed. If I heard much of anything it was exhaust noise mostly with fast (large throttle )accelerations. The I4 seemed quick and powerful. The V6 was very quick and powerful. The v6 is only if you want max fun at low cost (that is me) or have to haul or tow heavy loads in very hilly country. That will be a small group of people.
Some of the comments here and on the MSN auto reviews have people commenting that the V6 is "too powerfull"...or "takes getting used to at take off."
I really don't know what all the noise fuss is about.
So now look at your options. If you pick the 4-cyl you are more likely to not have sufficient power; whereas the V-6 sounds more than adequate for your needs. Take a chance,
or don't take a chance - seems like a simple choice. Frankly even if the 4-cyl can make it, I think it'll be at reduced speed, and running high rpms in 2nd or 3rd gear. You're talking another 10% of cost to get much more power - go for it.
I've also heard that it will/might(?) be in the '07 Matrix next Sept. It's also the base engine in the Scion tC. It is a very remarkable engine, as is the Honda version.
The V6, I agree, is a special situation for people with spcific wants/needs; e.g. constant towing, the belief that anything smaller than a V6 belongs in a lawnmower
If you do a search on google you would most likely find some info on the person to contact w/phone number etc...
The guys info is out there, this is how I found it myself.
Thanks
I'm considering that you're taking a 3,500 Lb vehicle losing power to the auto. transmission, and possibly to the AWD system, adding 4 people (700 Lb?), add their luggage, and then put a 1000+ lb trailer on it, and have some mountain climbing. This is not the same as driving a Scion Tc to the mall. I certainly wouldn't be happy going up the mountain at 30mph at 5000 rpm in a 4 cyl. as I envision. Not when you can correct that issue for slightly more money. If the V-6 cost $5K more and drop the fuel economy 25% I would say yeah now maybe, maybe go for the 4 cyl.
I'll never by a car from them.
The amazing thing is that on the 4x4, the highway mileage rating is the same for both! So, for $2000 you get over 100hp more and don't lose mileage on the highway.
Bye the way, Fitzmall has two V6s in stock now. One is $500 over invoice and one loaded Limited is about $2000 over invoice!
me: That's probably because the V-6 has the 5th gear, and has the torque to be geared more conservatively. At any given highway speed the V-6 will be turning lower rpm's.
If you were to consider the engines to have equal expected number of rpm's in their life, the V-6 should be expected to have a longer life. There is nothing like high rpm driving to wear-out an engine prematurely; racing engines being an extreme example having an extremely short life - maybe 1,000 miles before rebuild is necessary.
And here's some common-sense from Jeep; see the "Engine Capacity" section. This site is discussing pulling a trailer with 1 horse aboard. My wife has a horse and you can figure about 1,200 + the trailer which may total 2K Lb. http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/safetowing/vehicle.htm
Engines wear based on rpm's. The lower the rpm's the less friction which produces wear, if no other variables. I'm no t an expert on Toyota engines, but I've never heard where Toyota's 4-cyl engines have some secret low-friction material. This is physics, not subjective. But if you don't believe me -
"What is the point of a high top gear (low ratio), if it reduces the engine torque?
The gearbox also changes engine revs, in inverse proportion to the ratio, so that as you change through the gearbox, the engine revs are reduced. A high top gear enables higher cruising speeds to be maintained at lower engine revs, thus reducing wear." From: http://www.cartoday.com/content/technical/jake_venter/details.asp?id=38
Any mechanical item will wear-out quicker the more it is used and the harder it is used. The laws of physics are not influenced by sentiment.
There is no rule that says and engine only has xRPMs in it's life and the V6 takes more energy and stress to make one RPM anyway, so it is not that simplistic.
If you feel you need the extra power for towing and for the thrill of extra fast acceleration and don't care about the lost mileage from those practices, then get the V6.
You can't use the V6's extra power and still get mileage close the 4 cylinder no matter what the window sticker says.
You need to take into consideration how much side wall load is on the piston/rings and cyclinder do to rod ratio, balance of the engine, type of oil vs. extreme cold starts, is the engine raced to redline everyday, maintenance, design of the engine and materials etc......
Anyone remember the 22r(e) motor from toyota??? IMHO it was way better then the V6 motor they put in the trucks. It had fewer problems and lasted longer on average.
For all practical purposes, either engine should go to 200k miles which I think would take care of about 98% of everybodies needs.
Any way, the longevity of these engines shouldn't even be a consideration when deciding on the I4 or V6. There is absolutely no way to say wether one is better then the other from a longevity stand point. You should get the motor that meets your everyday driving needs.
In practice nearly noone ever reaches the fatigue level you mention. I might in 10 yrs at 40K /yr but at that level the rest of the vehicle is worthless anyway.
250K mi, with plenty to spare, is a safe estimate for the V6 or the 4c. I know I've done it nearly 4 times. I'll let you know on the Prius in 4-1/2 more years.
1. The engine failing part is always a "wear" part in a velocity-sensitive application and not a fatigued part or otherwise stressed part.
2. All parts in the two engines have the same strength and duty rating.
3. Load is the same (1 vs 4 passengers? Towing?...)
4. Component design flaws and manufacture defects occurs at the same rate.
5. Velocity related wear is the only failure mode. (If both engines ran the same RPM would you believe the 4 cul was more reliable due to fewer parts or the 6cyl was more reliable because each cylinder had less work to do?)
An example of items that can also affect failure:
Are the bearings the same dimension?
Are there the same number of bearings?
Are the belts the same strength?
Does one engine have higher compression?
Are the same number of parts in each engine which could fail?
What are the failure modes of each engine (does one have additional ways to fail (i.e. interfernce valve clearance).
How do you define engine failure (Needs major re-build? Needs Head gasket? Engine needs replacement?)
I know it sound like a rant, but it is really a topic that I don't think is as simple as 4cyl. vs 6cyl or 1000 vs 1200rpm.
Ranting aside and all things being equal, I would tend to beleive the 6cyl would be more reliable (even though it likely has more parts, it probably has more bearings to handle the load and each cylinder has less work to do. The lower RPM would be a little "gravy" in the fact that it wuld help the fuel economy when cruising. I'd be lying if I wouldn't love the extra hp which I think has been a missing feature on Toyota in the past. :P
Frank
FRank
I would expect to get mid 20's combiined and close to 30mpg on the V-6 AWD. If I don't think so, I may consider getting the FJ Cruiser, as it has better capabilities for extreme circumstances I run into (Higher tow rating, better ground clearance, and AT tires would be nice). But you have some tradeoffs such as mpg.