Gary has this in his head and he's not letting go. That does not make it fact.
The fact is that as soon as the diesel cars the carmakers want to bring here get clean enough, there will be plenty of them to go around for the 3% of the car-buying market who wants them. "...."...
Again the only one bringing up the non sequiter issue of "conspiracy" theory/theories is you. I think you just bring it up this absolutely non issue "issue" to say there is no conspiracy!! It is like you go into the theater and yell there MIGHT be a FIRE drill, but it wasn't YOU that yelled the false alarm: FIRE!! ?? :lemon:
However what is very apparent is the US market for diesel passenger cars is "ANTI DIESEL". If 98% RUG to PUG vs 2% (down from almost 3% or -33%) is not proof enough, then the only one fooled is... again YOU.
The real issue is the US market is ANTI high MPG except for a vast (aka TINY) MINORITY (percentage % ) of the passenger vehicle fleet. The old standard is/has been 27 mpg with the defacto mpg of 22 mpg fleet wide. The 2012 standard is 35 mpg. So using the same discount, my swag is the defacto mpg will show itself to be (app -19%) 28 mpg fleet wide.
It might be high time you take my tongue in check advice and crunch the numbers. The "systems" are doing all they can to keep the per mile driven cost as high if not higher than Europes.
So, now do you want a mulligan on saying I am the one bringing up conspiracy theories? I did not bring it up - I just responded to Gary's conspiracy talk.
You totally misread his post. Or somethings in what he said triggered your sense of paranoia. It is just business as usually! All this is done in full view and of course in the back rooms and jet set vacation spots, reserved for our taxpayer paid government of the high dollar legislative and lobbying efforts.
Which of the following persons is more likely to have a "sense of paranoia" ?
1. One who believes in conspiracies. 2. One who dismisses conspiracies.
Care to answer?
I'm not sure what your goal is in trying to indicate that the person who does NOT think there is a conspiracy is the one with the paranoia issues...............
Hi, I have been told there is no market for diesel cars in the USA.
If they marketed them for the milage they get ...well no one with a brain would want another car.
Why? In Europe the Mercedes Class A 170 diesel usually get 50+miles to the gallon and it is not infrequent to get close to 60 and there are other cars that frequently get 60 miles to gallon a italian car gets 60 mpg and yes it is a diesel.
The test market (USA) did not even have a chance to spead the word,about diesel cars. What test market? We had a 25mpg+ diesel 4x4 from jeep ...it was only sold for 2yrs. 25+mpg for a real 4x4 is rare(not non existant)
Why would diesels be unatractive to the USA market. The market isnt geared to diesels. They (car manufactures) would have to accentuate to diesels positive points(milage)
The problem is the market is geared toward milage ONLY. If asked what would you rather have a 25mpg car or 60mpg diesel with better performance.
I ask you which would you pick. Your current car or your car with twice the milage ..using diesel?
For all the disucssion about CARB and EPA and emissions and fuel economy the key factor is that the three largest light vehicle manufacturers in NA have chosen already NOT to pursue diesel-powered vehicles.
There can be as many complaints about these agencies as there are posters but it's really all moot. GM, Toyota and Ford have already decided that diesel is not in their plans for Light Passenger Vehicles. They are all on record as preferring hybrids and/or improved gasser technology.
there is one specific reason that they understand perfectly that keeps being missed in these posts. The NA market is a low-cost, low-content, low-tech mass market. The bulk of the volume here wants to buy as basic as possible at the lowest possible price and get the largest vehicle possible.
High performance small vehicles at premium prices are wonderful.....and a HUGE yawn here..... because they generate little volume and little or no profits. The NA market doesnt not want to spend 11800 lbs ( $20000+ ) on a small 3 door hatch that gets 65 mpg. The NA public wants to spend under $15000 for this type of vehicles.
Then there is the price of fuel. The new diesel technology is wonderful and a great step forward. Trying to get the public to pay a premium for the vehicle and then pay a premium for the fuel is a non-starter.
Ergo, the trend among the three biggest here is to improve the gasser technology and keep the cost of production low so that the selling prices can remain low as well.
By Big 3 I was talking about GM, Toyota and Ford. Chrysler is slipping beyond 5th soon.
GM, T and F still control what is sold here to the general mass market. All three currently have no intention to develop diesel for LPVs. Now VW and Honda and Merc can and will supply a few niche vehicles at premium prices with very good technology and likely with very good fuel economy but there is no chance in the near term that these new clean diesels will have any interest for the largest part of the NA buying public.
For my .02 cents, that is why the oems which get good passenger diesels on the NA markets will get my consideration. I have been saying all along (with others obviously) that diesels will probably not get out of being a minority population, i.e., go from 2% to 51%. There are too many coins invested in higher and greater fuel use and profits in the auto industry- but this is NOTHING NEW or new NEWS.
Look man, I have to agree with [kdhspyder] on some of the statements he said. The diesel is not fuel of the future, it is fuel of the past. You cannot ask people to pay premium to buy a diesel car and then ask them to pay premium for the fuel just to drive some stinky diesel car. The future is for hybrid (gas/electric) or pure electric, and not Diesel/electric it won’t work, you do not shutoff the diesel engine at the stop and restart it again; diesel engine like to stay hot to be efficient. Manufacturers are all bringing Hybrid cars to the market next year. You are going to be dazzled by the amount of choices. Forget diesel Jetta with marginal (29cty / 41 hwy); Honda is bringing the Insight with room for 5 and large cargo space hybrid car with 60 MPG, they tested the car in Japan and the mileage was 71 MPG. And wait if that is not a good reason to buy this car, the $18,500 price tag will make more sense to a lot of wise people to buy this car. Jetta diesel is dying cause, some people are buying for the wrong reason, and based on speculation. Don’t take this personal you do not own Diesel refinery, VW company.
Until you can refine 100% (i.e., AKA- NO DIESEL) RUG from a 42 gal barrel of oil, YOU will always have the conundrum of diesel; AND given diesel, vice versa with RUG. I have listed the converted ratios given the numbers listed by www.eia.gov. You can ignore the ratios all you wish. However the math is inescapable! There is the issue of light sweet crude being in the premium and subsequently minority position, but that can be a HUGE but secondary issue.
Your "ignorance" (the act of ignoring something- this is NOT being said as an insult) will not solve the issue/s. Indeed you have just confirmed that there is massive interest in EVER increasing costs in the auto industry and germane to this discussion: higher use, costs and taxes per mile driven.
So really to me at this state of technology, a killer dream solution is a primary 250 miles electric plug in range with a secondary diesel engine 700 mile range (50 mpg 14.5 gal tank) The regulators hate the electrical plug in (for obvious, it is harder to TAX, on top of electricity already being highly taxed ). So much for home grown power self sufficiency.
There can be as many complaints about these agencies as there are posters but it's really all moot. GM, Toyota and Ford have already decided that diesel is not in their plans for Light Passenger Vehicles. They are all on record as preferring hybrids and/or improved gasser technology.
You might ask yourself if they know more about politics than you do? If Exxon says we are only going to supply so much % diesel for automobiles. Why would those automakers build diesel cars. Any one that thinks that the oil companies do not manipulate our fine Congress. Needs to go back to school and learn how to read. Then read in depth the history of the automobile in this country.
As our friend ruking has pointed out. There is only so much distillate in a barrel of oil. There is always more gas than needed. Especially in the winter when people are heating with oil.
The only one that ever brings up conspiracies is Larsb. Yes he is paranoid about anything that could be considered under handed by our government. They are all above board and NONE of them have ever done anything as a result of a lobbyist DONATION. How can you argue with some one that is that naive?
Here is my opinion. The oil companies in the USA do not want more diesel cars. They have seen what has happened with the HUGE demand in the EU and fear it would happen here. They have through lobbying efforts in the Federal and CA state legislatures have kept the bar just above the technology on emissions. This is not something new. For at least 100 years the oil companies have had to deal with an over supply of gasoline vs diesel/heating oil/jet fuel. We have mostly gas cars to use what was once a waste product and just dumped. Currently the EU has a surplus of gasoline that is sold directly to the USA. There is a glut of gasoline and a shortage of distillates. That is the reason for the higher price for diesel. The Feds go along with the whole deal because if you use less fuel in a diesel car you pay less road tax per mile. Keeping diesel cars from the consumer is a winner for the oil companies and the government.
THAT, My friend, is what YOU posted earlier today. YOU are the on bringing up conspiracies, not I.
Some people around here have more paranoia in their pinkie finger than I have EVER had in my entire body. I'm not and have never been and have never shown any sort of paranoia under any circumstances at any time during my 45 years on Earf.
Gary says, "...he is paranoid about anything that could be considered under handed by our government. They are all above board and NONE of them have ever done anything as a result of a lobbyist DONATION. How can you argue with some one that is that naive? "
I don't think it's possible to be both paranoid AND naive at the same time. If you know enough to wrongly suspect that someone is out to get you, then you are not ignorant of the idea and possibility that they might be out to get you. Not possible to be both.
And I might turn your own phrase back on you:
Gary says about our guvmint "they are all BELOW board and ALL of them have ALWAYS done everything bad as a result of a lobbyist DONATION."
How can you argue with some one that is that cynical?
you do not shutoff the diesel engine at the stop and restart it again; diesel engine like to stay hot to be efficient This is not the case nowadays. Speaking from experience, I have driven a BMW 118d that automatically shutoff at the stop and restarted again when the clutch pedal was stepped on.
to drive some stinky diesel car Again, this in not the case now. I have driven three LPV diesels in the last 5 years; I walk and ride among hundreds of diesels (LPV, buses, trucks) everyday. They don't stink. My word.
Indeed on long downgrade runs, I look forward to the "zero fuel draw" with the diesel. It would be way cool for a majority of " new diesel's to intergrate the auto shutoff @ stop and restart with clutch pedal, but my 03 TDI will not see it. Diesels stink? As if RUG to PUG does not? Now I can do nothing if you prefer one over the other!?
If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.
Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.
Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.
Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly to the fuel.
Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.
The question, of course, is whether the U.S. ever will embrace diesel fuel and allow automakers to achieve sufficient scale to make money on such vehicles. California certified VW and Mercedes diesel cars earlier this year, after a four-year ban. James N. Hall, of auto researcher 293 Analysts, says that bellwether state and the Northeast remain "hostile to diesel." But the risk to Ford is that the fuel takes off, and the carmaker finds itself playing catch-up—despite having a serious diesel contender in its arsenal.
Does ANYONE not think that if Ford saw a strong enough US diesel market and USA potential to have the best MPG of ANY sedan in America, a "Prius Killer" you might say, that this car would be on showroom floors in a few months?
They could and would solve the other problems if they thought they could sell 350K of these cars.
You obviously do not know what a conspiracy is. A lobbyist donating to a Senator for his vote IS the way things are done in Washington DC. If you are unaware of that way of doing business in our government you need to do some research. There are green lobbyist as well that sway members of Congress to vote on bills that are in their interest. My post that you find so conspiratorial is probably the most logical explanation of why diesel cars have been withheld from the American public. There just is not enough diesel to go around with our huge demand with jets, semis, trains, ships etc.
And I read the about the Ford 65 MPG car. And I think they left out one small item. The cost of doing business with the UAW on any new factories. If they were building that car in Korea or China it would be more feasible to offer here.
I own a and drive a 21 year old diesel (Ford Escort), I have many poor friends going to scooters and the ones with money are going hybrids. I will keep my Diesel going for as long as possible....because it gets better MPG then the scooters and most hybrids ! It cost me less then $9000 new off the showroom floor, I get 37 MPG easy in town and mid to upper 40's on the highway. Best was a run from Washington state to southern Calif and back....on cruise at 55 MPH I got 50 MPG ! I have a roof and 4 doors and can carry 4 people easy and get better mileage them most if not all the new over priced cars today ! I do not need to drive 85-100 MPH, I do not need 20 speakers or a fancy radio, I do not need heated seats or a GPS and I sure do not need more computers then the local college computer lab ! I know how to use the brakes and how to look out my mirrors. There is not a new car/truck made today that I would consider if I wanted a new vehicle, I'd buy a older car (pre-computer) and have it restored, it would get better MPG and be safer then the plastic cars today ! Todays car makers need to look back at what they built in the past. IMHO !
Gagy, you and and a couple of the other usual suspects here have been consistent conspiracy buffs for at least the last two years. The funny stuff is that you never admit it, and when someone like Larsb calls you on it you bail out and say its really them, not you. This also happens when false statement are refuted, claims are debunked, and your hand is in the cookie jar. You are nothing if not entertaining, but you have done funnier stuff!
“ the term ‘conspiracy theory’, is precisely that, a label, one that has been used as a means of dismissing the PM (Herman and Chomsky's Propaganda Model) without granting a minimal presentation of the model or a consideration of evidence.
Yes you and larsb use the term as a label to refute evidence or opinion laid before you. I gave an opinion of why diesel usage is not in the best interest of the oil companies. To that end they will use their substantial influence to get rules and regulations to accomplish what they would like to see. Instead of opinions on why the oil companies would love to have more diesel cars on the road. I get "Conspiracy Theory" a label that frees you from making any credible argument to the contrary. Or even having to analyze the idea. Of course in your case it is simply that you hate cars of any type so naturally you would jump on any bandwagon presented that is negative toward any personal means of motorized transport.
Hey guys. Did it ever occur to anybody that the reason there isn't a big demand for diesels is that, with the exception of VW which is not a real popular car in this country, none exist. When Honda & some of the more popular models hit the marketplace with their diesel's and the public starts to see the mileage they can achieve they will get a larger share of the market, How big a share? Don't know, but it will increase.
Look at what has happened to demand for fuel efficient 4 cylinder's & the Prius as gas prices increase. Same thing will happen with the diesel when the public becomes aware of the fuel savings. Yeah, I know; diesel costs more; but the difference is down to $.52. Wasn't too many months ago that diesel was actuall cheaper that RUG and I thing prices of the two are again headed toward parity.
When Honda & some of the more popular models hit the marketplace with their diesel's and the public starts to see the mileage they can achieve they will get a larger share of the market
The anti diesel trolls hanging out here do not want any other maker to bring diesels to market. I think Honda has the best shot at making diesel cars a mainstream vehicle. I will probably jump on the BMW X5 diesel when it arrives this month. It would be nice to double the mileage from this gas guzzling Sequoia. It is a shame that Ford does not set up a plant in Mexico for their 65 MPG diesel car.
I personally would not have any diesel issues with Honda's, should they come to the N/A market. Over the years except for the Honda Accord 1978 (31 years ago) I have had good luck with their products.The only issue I would have (NON diesel) is how close to VW 's 12 year rust warranty does Honda come.
It's not that Ford don't want to bring their diesel here in USA; It is the fact that cost versus profit don't justify selling that car in USA. Diesel cars cost more to build than gasoline ones. In Europe they can sell the Fiesta for as much as 24,000 Euros. Try to bring that car in USA and ask people to pay $28,000 for a small tiny box, no one will buy it, they will go for Honda hybrid or Prius, or the new Insight 60 MPG. Diesel is not going to win any popularity here in USA, the hybrid will win the heart of consumer.
If you don't understand the process how we get the diesel refined, and why the diesel price went up, you need to keep quiet, and do not spread your ignorance around, this is not an insult it is meant to be an advice. And I am not going to explain it to you here how we refine diesel, because everybody knows these processes. And again Between 60 MPG insight at $18,500 and 40 MPG Jetta at $25,000; HELLO it does not take a genius to figure out the winner!!!! :shades:
Yes everybody does know, even if one doesn't, one can goggle. So yours is truly stupid and ignorable advice. I really do not think you have a lanuage problem, it is you enjoy being abrasive.
..."HELLO it does not take a genius to figure out the winner!!!! "...
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what is better between a diesel Civic and gasser Civic. But you of all people know why they do not bring the diesel Civic to the N/A market. Overnight 38-42 (gasser) mpg would be drawfed ed by 52-59 mpg. This of course is like model to like model. I would agree with your quote in the context I have stated. On the VW where the like models are @ 29 mpg and 49 mpg diesel holds a HUGE advantage..... but then you know that. :lemon:
And I read the about the Ford 65 MPG car. And I think they left out one small item. The cost of doing business with the UAW on any new factories. If they were building that car in Korea or China it would be more feasible to offer here.
This vehicle could be built in Mexico where the Fusion is built out of the way of the UAW in the same way that the Jetta is. The problem as correctly stated by Mark Fields has little or nothing to do with any conspiracy or any interventions by CARB or EPA.
The simple fact is that GM, Toyota and Ford don't think the NA buying public will have any interest in such a vehicle .... @ $20000-$25000!!! And they are right. This vehicle is smaller than a Fit and 20-30% more expensive and using a more expensive fuel. It can't be sold here.
This is just dollars and cents logic and all the vehicle makers know it. Niches vehicles, OK. Mass production and high volumes, not under current conditions. The new Honda hybrid would kill this Ford all across the board.
I strongly doubt that a new diesel Civic made to NA specs would get 52-59 mpg. Why should it be any better than the Jetta TDI? With the current emissions requirements It probably would get real world 45-50 mpg just like the Jetta, however it would be sold at a premium price and ( here we go again ) it would have to use fuel that costs a premium.
For a few enthusiasts it would be a good buy. For the general buying public that wants cheap, cheap, cheap it's not a runner.
The gasser Civic would be less fuel efficient but it would cost less overall
I think you are leaving out the year over year inflation upcharge. So for example a Civic upcharge is app 5.6% year over year. Needless to say used Civic prices have firmed up considerably during MY 2008.
Well for obvious reasons we will not know will we? It is more than apparent for the VW Jetta et al. For the MY 03 there was a 246. premium. One of course would need to decide whether it is worth the upcharge.
You’re very nostalgic, that remind me of all old men, when they hang out together, and start talking; “ you remember 1967 chevy, those are real cars not like the craps we have today..” that’s BS. People need cars with computers to calculate the exact amount of fuel and air mixture, and control the emission of harmful gases, back in the seventies you did not have 356 millions cars on the road the population in US was small, the gallon of gasoline was 40 cents. If we had lessened to people like you, we would not go to work, we would not spend time and money to develop new technologies, we would not use computers at all, we would not have a flat screen TV that you’re watching now, we would not have an advance pharmaceutical product that saves lives. Your car cannot maneuver or avoid skidding, because it does not have EPS (electronic stability control), it cannot do a panic stop, and stops from 60 to 0 Mph in 120 FT. should I go on, or that is enough, computer technology help save lives on the road, at home, in the air, or even at school. Don’t take it personal, I am just stating the facts why we have these technologies. I agree with you on some of the gadgets in today’s cars are not necessities; like IPOD hookup, refrigerators, heated seats, moon roofs. :shades:
Because Ford NA is in the process of going out of business. If Ford were making the right decision, ask yourself why the NA division is so woeful while the European division is so successful...
Obviously the Fiesta is not Bin 2 Tier 5 ready and Ford doesn't have the cash to invest to make it so and then sell it at little or no premium (it's a compact and the US market is yet to pay high dollars for a non-luxury compact).
It's been stated before, but if you're looking for bright business decisions Ford and GM may not be the places to start. Both are in the worst financial shape of their corporate history and you don't get there by being 'johnny-on-the-spot'.
Gary says, "You obviously do not know what a conspiracy is."
Now, Gary, my friend.....is that a proper way for two intelligent persons to conduct discourse? One of them accusing the other of not knowing something that any 18 yr old would know? Let's keep it civil and reasonable and don't insult the other's intelligence, OK?
Gary says, "A lobbyist donating to a Senator for his vote IS the way things are done in Washington DC. "
You are correct about that in MANY (but not ALL) cases. Some politicians work for the people, not the lobbyists.
And to continue with that strain - is there ANY SUCH THING as an "Anti-Diesel Fuel" lobby? I'm going to work on finding that out, but my guess is that NO there is not. There more than likely IS a Pro-Diesel lobby group or two.
..."Gagy, you and and a couple of the other usual suspects here have been consistent conspiracy buffs for at least the last two years. The funny stuff is that you never admit it, and when someone like Larsb calls you on it you bail out and say its really them, not you. This also happens when false statement are refuted, claims are debunked, and your hand is in the cookie jar. You are nothing if not entertaining, but you have done funnier stuff! "...
Actually you "conspiracy" yelling buffs should make a stop at the dictionary before you go saying some one is yelling FIRE (conspiracy) in a crowded theater when indeed they are NOT !! Larsb is talking to his imaginary straw man that he routinely carries to this discussion site.
Mark this in your Funk and Wagnalls :
..."An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
A group of conspirators.
Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action."...
Might be a reason why the only time conspiracy comes up is when YOU or Larsb shows up!? :lemon:
So a group of legislators, along with people at CARB and the EPA, intentionally agreeing and acting with the intent (i.e., conspiring) of keeping diesel cars out of America, as Gary has accused them of, is not a "wrongful" act?
I'd say something like that, were it occurring (it ain't) would DEFINITELY qualify as a conspiracy based on the "wrongful act" portion of the definition.
But then again, I'm no expert at spotting conspiracies.
Why even you are a law abiding citizen ! What knowledge do you have they are performing wrongful acts? If you do, this is indeed the incorrect forum.
On the flip side, every so often or when the scenario dictates a fall guy is selected, with great fanfare, pomp and circumstance and ceremony approaching a dog and pony show and ...life goes on.
ruking1 says, "What knowledge do you have they are performing wrongful acts?"
Not me saying that at all. It's Gary. I again quoteth he:
Here is my opinion. The oil companies in the USA do not want more diesel cars. They have seen what has happened with the HUGE demand in the EU and fear it would happen here. They have through lobbying efforts in the Federal and CA state legislatures have kept the bar just above the technology on emissions. This is not something new.
It's GARY who is saying they (the oil companies, in cahoots with the regulators and legislators, as he clearly says in the above quote) are committing wrongful acts, not I.
Again the same misreading and lack of understanding of the dictionary definition. You are still wanting to yell fire in a crowded theater with no fire and not wanting to be blamed for it, despite your protestations to the contrary.
Which part did I misread? I quoted him word for word. If he did not mean what I interpreted him to mean, then please tell me what he REALLY meant to say.
(Any "non-partisan" observers who want to pipe in and get this settled please do so.)
There has been overwhelming response to my story this week, “The 65 MPG Ford The U.S. Can’t Have.”The fact that the story has gotten picked up on so many news aggregators, blogs and other sites tells me there is a huge appetite for fuel efficient cars despite the recent drop in oil and gasoline prices.
When we do a three column story, there are always nuances and information that get cut for space. So, I wanted to use this blog entry to add some of them to the discussion.
iggybacking the announcement of its Gen VI Golf (Rabbit here in the states), VW installed its 1.6-liter common-rail diesel into a version of that vehicle to achieve 74.3 mpg on the European cycle (that equates to roughly 62 mpg in U.S. terms). A bit smaller than the 2.0 TDI in its newest U.S. offering, the Jetta TDI Clean Diesel, the 1.6-liter mill in the Golf BlueMotion Concept generates 104 horsepower and 184 lb-ft of torque at 2,000 rpm.
While these power figures hobble it in the race to 60 mph against a Prius, at 11.3 seconds to 62 mph according to VW, it's wholly respectable given its miserly consumption. And if it drives anything like the 2.0-liter unit in the Jetta TDI, it will likely yield its max torque quickly, making it feel sprightlier than its performance numbers indicate.
This is big news for VW as this new BlueMotion model matches the fuel economy and CO2 emissions (99 g/km) bar set in '06 by the smaller, lighter VW Polo BlueMotion.
keeping diesel cars out of America, as Gary has accused them of, is not a "wrongful" act?
Diesels are blocked by people that have a reason to block them whether real or contrived. I have NEVER said it was illegal. Maybe I feel it is criminal. But then I consider the whole idea of buying votes from Congress as Immoral. Not illegal as far as I know unless the person takes the money for his own personal use. Which is tough to prove, when they claim all their movements are part of their job.
I think you like to use the word conspiracy to free you from making a credible argument. You have in your mind that all vehicles should ultimately emit ZERO pollution. Well it is a grand plan that you and AL G share. Just not realistic.
You know I am getting to the point that I really don't care how they block diesel cars next. I am pretty sure that BMW will have a diesel vehicle that will be my last. Or I may still get one of the Mercedes diesel SUVs to last the rest of my days.
There one ting I keep saying in this forum; it’s not that the manufacturer does not want to bring the diesel in USA, it is the fact that it does not make a good business case. The VW Golf is sold in Europe for as much as $29,000, here in USA they cannot do that, because the market is full of other manufacturers that can offer better value for the money. The other thing that is playing against the Diesel car from been popular here in USA is the government and the lobbyists that they are working for the oil companies. Believe it or not, every business will do whatever it takes to keep the revenues flowing. And what makes this situation worse is the media are playing into this game, we got media that support democrat, and media that support republicans, and we are the public that believe any crap they say. Talking about conspiracy, this is reality people.
Gary says, "I think you like to use the word conspiracy to free you from making a credible argument."
Completely false statement. Did you not see all the credible arguments I posted? They are there - go back and check. SOME PEOPLE might do what you accused me of in the above statement, but I'm definitely not one of those people who do that. Anytime I counter a "conspiracy charge" I always back it up with credible reasons why the conspiracy talk is bunk. Just like I did in this case.
Gary says, "You have in your mind that all vehicles should ultimately emit ZERO pollution. Well it is a grand plan that you and AL G share. Just not realistic. "
Another incorrect assumption, putting things in my mind which are NOT and have NEVER been there. I have never stated that I expect all cars to be ZEVs - never have I said or even hinted at that opinion.
And about the only thing I wish to have in common with AlGore is that we are both men who live on Planet Earf.
Comments
There is no "anti-diesel conspiracy" in the USA.
Even the diesel forums don't think that.
Gary has this in his head and he's not letting go. That does not make it fact.
The fact is that as soon as the diesel cars the carmakers want to bring here get clean enough, there will be plenty of them to go around for the 3% of the car-buying market who wants them. "...."...
Again the only one bringing up the non sequiter issue of "conspiracy" theory/theories is you. I think you just bring it up this absolutely non issue "issue" to say there is no conspiracy!! It is like you go into the theater and yell there MIGHT be a FIRE drill, but it wasn't YOU that yelled the false alarm: FIRE!! ?? :lemon:
However what is very apparent is the US market for diesel passenger cars is "ANTI DIESEL". If 98% RUG to PUG vs 2% (down from almost 3% or -33%) is not proof enough, then the only one fooled is... again YOU.
The real issue is the US market is ANTI high MPG except for a vast (aka TINY) MINORITY (percentage % ) of the passenger vehicle fleet. The old standard is/has been 27 mpg with the defacto mpg of 22 mpg fleet wide. The 2012 standard is 35 mpg. So using the same discount, my swag is the defacto mpg will show itself to be (app -19%) 28 mpg fleet wide.
It might be high time you take my tongue in check advice and crunch the numbers. The "systems" are doing all they can to keep the per mile driven cost as high if not higher than Europes.
I guess you missed a post my friend. Look at this one:
See what Gary said about his conspiracy views
So, now do you want a mulligan on saying I am the one bringing up conspiracy theories? I did not bring it up - I just responded to Gary's conspiracy talk.
Quiz:
Which of the following persons is more likely to have a "sense of paranoia" ?
1. One who believes in conspiracies.
2. One who dismisses conspiracies.
Care to answer?
I'm not sure what your goal is in trying to indicate that the person who does NOT think there is a conspiracy is the one with the paranoia issues...............
I have been told there is no market for diesel cars in the USA.
If they marketed them for the milage they get ...well no one with a brain would want another car.
Why?
In Europe the Mercedes Class A 170 diesel usually get 50+miles to the gallon and it is not infrequent to get close to 60 and there are other cars that frequently get 60 miles to gallon a italian car gets 60 mpg and yes it is a diesel.
The test market (USA) did not even have a chance to spead the word,about diesel cars. What test market? We had a 25mpg+ diesel 4x4 from jeep ...it was only sold for 2yrs. 25+mpg for a real 4x4 is rare(not non existant)
Why would diesels be unatractive to the USA market. The market isnt geared to diesels. They (car manufactures) would have to accentuate to diesels positive points(milage)
The problem is the market is geared toward milage ONLY. If asked what would you rather have a 25mpg car or 60mpg diesel with better performance.
I ask you which would you pick. Your current car or your car with twice the milage ..using diesel?
For all the disucssion about CARB and EPA and emissions and fuel economy the key factor is that the three largest light vehicle manufacturers in NA have chosen already NOT to pursue diesel-powered vehicles.
There can be as many complaints about these agencies as there are posters but it's really all moot. GM, Toyota and Ford have already decided that diesel is not in their plans for Light Passenger Vehicles. They are all on record as preferring hybrids and/or improved gasser technology.
there is one specific reason that they understand perfectly that keeps being missed in these posts. The NA market is a low-cost, low-content, low-tech mass market. The bulk of the volume here wants to buy as basic as possible at the lowest possible price and get the largest vehicle possible.
High performance small vehicles at premium prices are wonderful.....and a HUGE yawn here..... because they generate little volume and little or no profits. The NA market doesnt not want to spend 11800 lbs ( $20000+ ) on a small 3 door hatch that gets 65 mpg. The NA public wants to spend under $15000 for this type of vehicles.
Then there is the price of fuel. The new diesel technology is wonderful and a great step forward. Trying to get the public to pay a premium for the vehicle and then pay a premium for the fuel is a non-starter.
Ergo, the trend among the three biggest here is to improve the gasser technology and keep the cost of production low so that the selling prices can remain low as well.
It is hard to understand where all the speculation comes from about them all going broke....
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
GM, T and F still control what is sold here to the general mass market. All three currently have no intention to develop diesel for LPVs. Now VW and Honda and Merc can and will supply a few niche vehicles at premium prices with very good technology and likely with very good fuel economy but there is no chance in the near term that these new clean diesels will have any interest for the largest part of the NA buying public.
No volume...No profits.
Your "ignorance" (the act of ignoring something- this is NOT being said as an insult) will not solve the issue/s. Indeed you have just confirmed that there is massive interest in EVER increasing costs in the auto industry and germane to this discussion: higher use, costs and taxes per mile driven.
So really to me at this state of technology, a killer dream solution is a primary 250 miles electric plug in range with a secondary diesel engine 700 mile range (50 mpg 14.5 gal tank) The regulators hate the electrical plug in (for obvious, it is harder to TAX, on top of electricity already being highly taxed ). So much for home grown power self sufficiency.
You might ask yourself if they know more about politics than you do? If Exxon says we are only going to supply so much % diesel for automobiles. Why would those automakers build diesel cars. Any one that thinks that the oil companies do not manipulate our fine Congress. Needs to go back to school and learn how to read. Then read in depth the history of the automobile in this country.
As our friend ruking has pointed out. There is only so much distillate in a barrel of oil. There is always more gas than needed. Especially in the winter when people are heating with oil.
The only one that ever brings up conspiracies is Larsb. Yes he is paranoid about anything that could be considered under handed by our government. They are all above board and NONE of them have ever done anything as a result of a lobbyist DONATION. How can you argue with some one that is that naive?
Whoa Whoa Whoa my friend !! Did you forget about your post earlier today?
GaryAnoia
I quote thee:
Here is my opinion. The oil companies in the USA do not want more diesel cars. They have seen what has happened with the HUGE demand in the EU and fear it would happen here. They have through lobbying efforts in the Federal and CA state legislatures have kept the bar just above the technology on emissions. This is not something new. For at least 100 years the oil companies have had to deal with an over supply of gasoline vs diesel/heating oil/jet fuel. We have mostly gas cars to use what was once a waste product and just dumped. Currently the EU has a surplus of gasoline that is sold directly to the USA. There is a glut of gasoline and a shortage of distillates. That is the reason for the higher price for diesel. The Feds go along with the whole deal because if you use less fuel in a diesel car you pay less road tax per mile. Keeping diesel cars from the consumer is a winner for the oil companies and the government.
THAT, My friend, is what YOU posted earlier today. YOU are the on bringing up conspiracies, not I.
Some people around here have more paranoia in their pinkie finger than I have EVER had in my entire body. I'm not and have never been and have never shown any sort of paranoia under any circumstances at any time during my 45 years on Earf.
I don't think it's possible to be both paranoid AND naive at the same time. If you know enough to wrongly suspect that someone is out to get you, then you are not ignorant of the idea and possibility that they might be out to get you. Not possible to be both.
And I might turn your own phrase back on you:
Gary says about our guvmint "they are all BELOW board and ALL of them have ALWAYS done everything bad as a result of a lobbyist DONATION."
How can you argue with some one that is that cynical?
All the more reason/s for a significant increase to the 2% extreme minority diesel passenger vehicle fleet (aka to 24% as a target). :shades:
This is not the case nowadays. Speaking from experience, I have driven a BMW 118d that automatically shutoff at the stop and restarted again when the clutch pedal was stepped on.
to drive some stinky diesel car
Again, this in not the case now. I have driven three LPV diesels in the last 5 years; I walk and ride among hundreds of diesels (LPV, buses, trucks) everyday. They don't stink. My word.
Regards,
Jose
The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have
If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.
Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.
Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.
Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly to the fuel.
Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.
The question, of course, is whether the U.S. ever will embrace diesel fuel and allow automakers to achieve sufficient scale to make money on such vehicles. California certified VW and Mercedes diesel cars earlier this year, after a four-year ban. James N. Hall, of auto researcher 293 Analysts, says that bellwether state and the Northeast remain "hostile to diesel." But the risk to Ford is that the fuel takes off, and the carmaker finds itself playing catch-up—despite having a serious diesel contender in its arsenal.
Does ANYONE not think that if Ford saw a strong enough US diesel market and USA potential to have the best MPG of ANY sedan in America, a "Prius Killer" you might say, that this car would be on showroom floors in a few months?
They could and would solve the other problems if they thought they could sell 350K of these cars.
And I read the about the Ford 65 MPG car. And I think they left out one small item. The cost of doing business with the UAW on any new factories. If they were building that car in Korea or China it would be more feasible to offer here.
Todays car makers need to look back at what they built in the past. IMHO !
“ the term ‘conspiracy theory’, is precisely that, a label, one that has been used as a means of dismissing the PM (Herman and Chomsky's Propaganda Model) without granting a minimal presentation of the model or a consideration of evidence.
Yes you and larsb use the term as a label to refute evidence or opinion laid before you. I gave an opinion of why diesel usage is not in the best interest of the oil companies. To that end they will use their substantial influence to get rules and regulations to accomplish what they would like to see. Instead of opinions on why the oil companies would love to have more diesel cars on the road. I get "Conspiracy Theory" a label that frees you from making any credible argument to the contrary. Or even having to analyze the idea. Of course in your case it is simply that you hate cars of any type so naturally you would jump on any bandwagon presented that is negative toward any personal means of motorized transport.
Look at what has happened to demand for fuel efficient 4 cylinder's & the Prius as gas prices increase. Same thing will happen with the diesel when the public becomes aware of the fuel savings. Yeah, I know; diesel costs more; but the difference is down to $.52. Wasn't too many months ago that diesel was actuall cheaper that RUG and I thing prices of the two are again headed toward parity.
The anti diesel trolls hanging out here do not want any other maker to bring diesels to market. I think Honda has the best shot at making diesel cars a mainstream vehicle. I will probably jump on the BMW X5 diesel when it arrives this month. It would be nice to double the mileage from this gas guzzling Sequoia. It is a shame that Ford does not set up a plant in Mexico for their 65 MPG diesel car.
..."HELLO it does not take a genius to figure out the winner!!!! "...
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what is better between a diesel Civic and gasser Civic. But you of all people know why they do not bring the diesel Civic to the N/A market. Overnight 38-42 (gasser) mpg would be drawfed ed by 52-59 mpg. This of course is like model to like model. I would agree with your quote in the context I have stated. On the VW where the like models are @ 29 mpg and 49 mpg diesel holds a HUGE advantage..... but then you know that. :lemon:
This vehicle could be built in Mexico where the Fusion is built out of the way of the UAW in the same way that the Jetta is. The problem as correctly stated by Mark Fields has little or nothing to do with any conspiracy or any interventions by CARB or EPA.
The simple fact is that GM, Toyota and Ford don't think the NA buying public will have any interest in such a vehicle .... @ $20000-$25000!!! And they are right. This vehicle is smaller than a Fit and 20-30% more expensive and using a more expensive fuel. It can't be sold here.
This is just dollars and cents logic and all the vehicle makers know it. Niches vehicles, OK. Mass production and high volumes, not under current conditions. The new Honda hybrid would kill this Ford all across the board.
For a few enthusiasts it would be a good buy. For the general buying public that wants cheap, cheap, cheap it's not a runner.
The gasser Civic would be less fuel efficient but it would cost less overall
Obviously the Fiesta is not Bin 2 Tier 5 ready and Ford doesn't have the cash to invest to make it so and then sell it at little or no premium (it's a compact and the US market is yet to pay high dollars for a non-luxury compact).
It's been stated before, but if you're looking for bright business decisions Ford and GM may not be the places to start. Both are in the worst financial shape of their corporate history and you don't get there by being 'johnny-on-the-spot'.
Now, Gary, my friend.....is that a proper way for two intelligent persons to conduct discourse? One of them accusing the other of not knowing something that any 18 yr old would know? Let's keep it civil and reasonable and don't insult the other's intelligence, OK?
Gary says, "A lobbyist donating to a Senator for his vote IS the way things are done in Washington DC. "
You are correct about that in MANY (but not ALL) cases. Some politicians work for the people, not the lobbyists.
And to continue with that strain - is there ANY SUCH THING as an "Anti-Diesel Fuel" lobby? I'm going to work on finding that out, but my guess is that NO there is not. There more than likely IS a Pro-Diesel lobby group or two.
I will find out and get back here.
Actually you "conspiracy" yelling buffs should make a stop at the dictionary before you go saying some one is yelling FIRE (conspiracy) in a crowded theater when indeed they are NOT !! Larsb is talking to his imaginary straw man that he routinely carries to this discussion site.
Mark this in your Funk and Wagnalls :
..."An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
A group of conspirators.
Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action."...
Might be a reason why the only time conspiracy comes up is when YOU or Larsb shows up!? :lemon:
I'd say something like that, were it occurring (it ain't) would DEFINITELY qualify as a conspiracy based on the "wrongful act" portion of the definition.
But then again, I'm no expert at spotting conspiracies.
You are still ignoring the definitions. To answered your flawed question invites the same conundrum of your own making.
Um, NO, I specifically re-stated my question within the confines of the definition.
See the "wrongful act" portion if you missed that one. And the groups working together to perform said wrongful act.
On the flip side, every so often or when the scenario dictates a fall guy is selected, with great fanfare, pomp and circumstance and ceremony approaching a dog and pony show and ...life goes on.
Not me saying that at all. It's Gary. I again quoteth he:
Here is my opinion. The oil companies in the USA do not want more diesel cars. They have seen what has happened with the HUGE demand in the EU and fear it would happen here. They have through lobbying efforts in the Federal and CA state legislatures have kept the bar just above the technology on emissions. This is not something new.
It's GARY who is saying they (the oil companies, in cahoots with the regulators and legislators, as he clearly says in the above quote) are committing wrongful acts, not I.
(Any "non-partisan" observers who want to pipe in and get this settled please do so.)
Two stubborn dudes could carry this out forever.
More from the Ford story writer at Business Week.
There has been overwhelming response to my story this week, “The 65 MPG Ford The U.S. Can’t Have.”The fact that the story has gotten picked up on so many news aggregators, blogs and other sites tells me there is a huge appetite for fuel efficient cars despite the recent drop in oil and gasoline prices.
When we do a three column story, there are always nuances and information that get cut for space. So, I wanted to use this blog entry to add some of them to the discussion.
iggybacking the announcement of its Gen VI Golf (Rabbit here in the states), VW installed its 1.6-liter common-rail diesel into a version of that vehicle to achieve 74.3 mpg on the European cycle (that equates to roughly 62 mpg in U.S. terms). A bit smaller than the 2.0 TDI in its newest U.S. offering, the Jetta TDI Clean Diesel, the 1.6-liter mill in the Golf BlueMotion Concept generates 104 horsepower and 184 lb-ft of torque at 2,000 rpm.
While these power figures hobble it in the race to 60 mph against a Prius, at 11.3 seconds to 62 mph according to VW, it's wholly respectable given its miserly consumption. And if it drives anything like the 2.0-liter unit in the Jetta TDI, it will likely yield its max torque quickly, making it feel sprightlier than its performance numbers indicate.
This is big news for VW as this new BlueMotion model matches the fuel economy and CO2 emissions (99 g/km) bar set in '06 by the smaller, lighter VW Polo BlueMotion.
Diesels are blocked by people that have a reason to block them whether real or contrived. I have NEVER said it was illegal. Maybe I feel it is criminal. But then I consider the whole idea of buying votes from Congress as Immoral. Not illegal as far as I know unless the person takes the money for his own personal use. Which is tough to prove, when they claim all their movements are part of their job.
I think you like to use the word conspiracy to free you from making a credible argument. You have in your mind that all vehicles should ultimately emit ZERO pollution. Well it is a grand plan that you and AL G share. Just not realistic.
You know I am getting to the point that I really don't care how they block diesel cars next. I am pretty sure that BMW will have a diesel vehicle that will be my last. Or I may still get one of the Mercedes diesel SUVs to last the rest of my days.
Completely false statement. Did you not see all the credible arguments I posted? They are there - go back and check. SOME PEOPLE might do what you accused me of in the above statement, but I'm definitely not one of those people who do that. Anytime I counter a "conspiracy charge" I always back it up with credible reasons why the conspiracy talk is bunk. Just like I did in this case.
Gary says, "You have in your mind that all vehicles should ultimately emit ZERO pollution. Well it is a grand plan that you and AL G share. Just not realistic. "
Another incorrect assumption, putting things in my mind which are NOT and have NEVER been there. I have never stated that I expect all cars to be ZEVs - never have I said or even hinted at that opinion.
And about the only thing I wish to have in common with AlGore is that we are both men who live on Planet Earf.