Well you certainly seem either uneducated or at least unable to read, as I hardly mentioned Big Oil as a special interest group opposed to diesel. I was talking about various alternative energy interests and other environmental nuts.
For the second time, please re-read my post and stop making up things that I never said. :shades:
If I was mistaken in my interpretation of that, Gary, please let me know. We all know the Oil Companies have political clout and POWER, but there is no indication that they have ever trained that power in the direction of harming sales of diesel cars in the USA, is there?
"Off my meds?" Isn't that a little condescending and personally insulting? I thought we don't do that around here?
That post was not a mistake on my part. You mentioned lobbying so my reply fishtailed right in there with your comment. I'm sure Gary read the post too, so it was a "two for one" reply.
We all know the Oil Companies have political clout and POWER, but there is no indication that they have ever trained that power in the direction of harming sales of diesel cars in the USA, is there?
Mercedes Benz does not agree with your Utopian view of our society.
Mercedes exec says Big Oil conspiring to kill U.S. diesel market
Mercedes-Benz has accused profiteering oil companies of ripping off diesel buyers and fears such action may kill the U.S. diesel passenger car market in its infancy. While oil prices have hit new highs, the pump price of diesel has surged to be more than a dollar a gallon higher than gasoline in some U.S. states, even though it is cheaper and less energy intensive to produce
And Mercedes-Benz, which introduced its E320 BlueTEC diesel passenger car into the U.S. in 2006, is fighting back, with Daimler board member, Dr Thomas Weber, insisting there was no demand-driven reason for diesel prices to be so high.
“We knew this surge was coming in the U.S.,” Dr Weber, who heads up the Mercedes-Benz Research and Development division, told Leftlane.
“I believe there is definitely optimization of earnings by oil companies to take advantage of the higher usage of diesel today. There is not another plausible or economic explanation.”
While gasoline has risen 113 cents a gallon in California in the last 12 months, diesel has surged by 199.5 cents in the same period and its pump price surge has outstripped gasoline by 95.7 cents on the East Coast and 95.3 cents in the Mid West.
“The most important driver is a huge trend in diesel use in Europe, but that doesn’t explain it,” Dr Weber insisted.
“There are limitations on capacity on the refining sites, but that’s not it, either, really.
“Diesel production costs are less than the gasoline production costs so the only idea you can find is that these companies are in the business of making a profit, so that is what they do now.”
The EIA’s pump price breakdowns seem to confirm Mercedes-Benz’s allegations. While the cost of the basic crude oil accounts for 73 percent of the pump price of gasoline, it only accounts for 61 percent of the diesel price.
Instead, the EIA figures show oil companies are slugging diesel buyers by more than double diesel’s refining costs compared to gasoline. Only 10 percent of the gasoline price is in refining, while that figure leaps to 21 percent for diesel.
Nevertheless, Dr Weber predicted the massive gap between gasoline and diesel prices in the U.S., Australia and Europe would soon come to an end and, even in the meantime, they would not affect Daimler’s upcoming plans to hit the U.S. market in force with its diesel engines.
“For the customer, if they experience the advantages of diesel, they will stay with diesel anyway,” he insisted.
“The technology is 20 to 30 percent more efficient than gasoline and has more torque at lower rpm and that’s what most buyers actually use.”
Benz will launch BlueTEC diesel versions of its R-, GL and ML-class SUVs in October after receiving 50-state registration approval for the technology in March this year.
Just merely a presentation of one man's opinion. He does not produce any facts, again, just conjecture.
The major premise of his opinion goes right out the window in the first paragraph of your story. He seems to think that Big Oil "somehow" controls the price of diesel fuel. But they cannot, and DO NOT control it. If they DID, and they REALLY wanted to "kill diesel in the USA," then they would just price it at $8 a gallon.
Here's a boondoggle for you to figure out, Gary, since you are apparently having such a hard time finding PROOF that Big Oil is "anti-diesel." (which they aren't)
Does not Big Oil produce oil for fuel in Europe, also? Did they "fight" diesel proliferation there, also? If they did, they lost.
Oh, wait, no, I'm wrong. What happened in Europe is that the PEOPLE LIKE DIESEL CARS.
Maybe someday we can say that about the USA buyer. We can't today, that's for sure.
You're a little behind on fuel prices. In SC the diference is now to.18 cents a gallon. Diesel with 30% better mileage starts to make a lot of sense. For me: 55000 miles a year divided by 28 MPG for my 06 avalon = 1964 gallons rug X $3.85 gl =$7562.00 a year. 55000 divided by 45 mpg =1222 gl diesel X $4.03 =$4925.00
That equates to well over $200. a month in fuel savings; It's real easy to justify a couple of grand additional cost, especially when the diesel is going to be worth more come trade time, and the reason a lot of people will buy diesels when they become more widely available.
I think I will accept MB's Dr. Weber's opinion based on facts over your anti diesel diatribe any day of the week. Oil companies may or may not have influence over the price of crude oil They do have control over the cost of refining and distribution. That was Dr. Weber's point that you obviously did not want to accept.
Higher diesel prices in Europe are lessening the "diesel advantage" which they have come to love over there: Math counts
Text size: increase text sizedecrease text size
The Gas Watch Is diesel fuel more economical than gas? Not so fast -- do the math
Steven Cole Smith | Automotive Editor September 9, 2008
Diesel advocates frequently point to Europe as an indication of how diesel-powered vehicles get better mileage and are consequently more economical than gasoline-powered vehicles. Indeed, in some European countries, well more than half the cars and trucks use diesel.
But there's some indication that higher diesel-fuel prices -- which are affecting both the U.S. and European markets -- are changing that perception. Auto Express, a British car magazine, recently looked at four car models that offer both diesel and gasoline engines in Europe, and calculated how long it would take owners to recover the cost of the diesel engine, which -- in three of the four cases -- is significantly more expensive than the gasoline-engined cars.
The magazine assumes a driver travels an average of 12,000 miles a year. With a Toyota Yaris, it would take a driver three years and six months, driving a distance of 42,402 miles, before a diesel buyer would "break even" with the lower cost of the gas-powered model. For a Ford Focus driver, the diesel break-even would take three years and five months, and 40,724 miles. For a Volkswagen Tiguan SUV, four years and four months, and 52,111 miles.
For the Mercedes-Benz C-Class, though, the gas-powered model is more expensive than the diesel, "so diesel buyers save cash from day one," the magazine reported.
You want some REAL reasons? OK, here they are. Doubt them at your peril.
Why are diesel fuel prices higher than gasoline prices?
Historically, the average price of diesel fuel has been lower than the average price of gasoline. However, this is not always the case. In some winters where the demand for distillate heating oil is high, the price of diesel fuel has risen above the gasoline price. Since September 2004, the price of diesel fuel has been generally higher than the price of regular gasoline all year round for several reasons. Worldwide demand for diesel fuel and other distillate fuel oils has been increasing steadily, with strong demand in China, Europe, and the United States, putting more pressure on the tight global refining capacity. In the United States, the transition to ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel has affected diesel fuel production and distribution costs. Also, the Federal excise tax on diesel fuel is 6 cents higher per gallon (24.4 cents per gallon) than the tax on gasoline
Why are West Coast diesel fuel prices higher and more variable than others?
Diesel prices on the West Coast, especially in California (CA), are relatively higher than other regions of the country, partly because of taxes, but mainly because of supply issues. The State of California assesses a combined State and local sales and use tax of 7.25 percent on top of the 24.4 cents/gallon Federal excise tax and an 18.0 cents/gallon State tax. Washington’s tax of 34 cents/gallon is one of the highest in the country. Besides taxes, West Coast retail prices are more variable than others because there are relatively few supply sources: 21 of the 36 refineries located in West Coast states are in CA. California refineries need to be running at near full capacity just to meet in-state demand. If more than one refinery in the region experiences operating difficulties at the same time, the diesel supply may become very tight and prices may spike. The West Coast’s substantial distance from Gulf coast and foreign refineries is such that any unusual increase in demand or reduction in supply results in a large price response in the market before relief supplies can be delivered. The farther away the necessary
True. However, there are a few factors driving up the cost of diesel. First of all, much of the diesel used in the U.S. is refined in Europe, where, due to favorable tax policies and fuel efficiency, diesel cars have made a major comeback. This increases demand for diesel fuel. Meanwhile, here in the states high gas prices have led Americans to consume less gasoline. In turn, refineries have scaled back their overall production to adjust to the lessened demand. However, the demand for diesel fuel remains the same even though refineries are processing less fuel overall.
Lawrence Goldstein of the Energy Policy Research Foundation told The New York Times that "it is as if sirloin had become so expensive that demand dropped, so farmers raised fewer cows, reducing the supply of hamburger — but hamburger remained as popular as ever."
It is also important to note that the federal excise tax on diesel is six cents higher per gallon than gasoline, according to the Department of Energy.
High diesel prices create an interesting conundrum for carmakers like Mercedes and BMW, which are trying to bring clean diesel vehicles to the U.S. These vehicles, while efficient, might now face a tough consumer response.
It’s because higher prices affect demand for each oil product differently, and diesel is “the one product the world really wants,” said Lawrence J. Goldstein, a director of the Energy Policy Research Foundation, a nonprofit group financed by oil producers, refiners and marketers, with some government help.
The price spread has attracted the attention of Congress. This month, John Felmy, chief economist of the American Petroleum Institute, an industry trade association, testified before the highway subcommittee of the House Transportation Committee. “U.S. overall petroleum demand, including demand for gasoline, has flattened,” he said. “However, in the U.S., demand for diesel has remained strong.”
He added: “This follows a long-term trend here and around the world. Over the past five years, U.S. demand for highway diesel has been rising at triple the rate of gasoline.”
Part of the American demand for transportation fuel is met by refineries in Europe, a link that usually helps keep prices down. But demand for diesel is rising in Europe as passenger car ownership and use there grow; many of those newly purchased vehicles are diesel-powered, a choice that had been encouraged by tax policy there.
As a result, production at European refineries is geared toward processing crude oil to meet the demand for diesel. That produces surplus gasoline, which the refineries export to the East Coast of the United States, experts said. That does nothing for diesel supply here.
Or local dealers. Gas prices here range nearly a dollar and we ain't talking OIL COMPANIES... its the local folks.. PRIVATE ENTERPRISE at work.. I guess we could do some PRICE SETTING like we tried back in the 70's. That really worked well didn't it?
The magazine assumes a driver travels an average of 12,000 miles a year.
A strange assumption for a dedicated magazine if we take into consideration that over here (Spain, France) a diesel is ' traditionally' considered to be a good choice when the driver travels an average of up from 16,000 miles a year (about 25,000 km per year).
Below that distance one can still buy diesel due to other factors linked to diesels (e.g., durability, necessity to pull weights, having a satisfactory drive without needing high revs), but not for economy reasons.
Yet, after all, we continentals know well that an islander is an islander :shades: (No offense intended to Britons and Irish people )
The FACT is that Mercedes feels that the OIL Companies are over charging for refining. You asked for ANY source that felt the oil companies could be involved in a plan to stop the sale of diesel cars. I present it from as reliable a source as any you have ever presented and it is not good enough. There is not a chance that you will EVER be pro diesel. You only give lip service to clean diesel when you are caught bad mouthing diesel. Which you have done a lot of over the last few years.
You have the same mindset as the mindless people at CARB. Diesel was never clean enough because CARB said so. Now that they have given in you say NOBODY wants a diesel car anyway. If your line of posting is NOT anti diesel what would you call it?
A big part of the reason diesel prices have increased is because in 2006 fuel emission standards kicked in and instead of being 500 parts per million (ppm) sulfur content our legislators are requiring 80 ppm. A barrel of crude oil is now around $110 and out of that barrel we squeeze 7.8 gallons of diesel fuel and 19.4 gallons of gasoline. So why are diesel prices now higher than gasoline prices? “Worldwide demand for diesel fuel and other distillate fuel oils has been increasing steadily, with strong demand in China, Europe and the U.S. putting more pressure on the tight global refining capacity.”
nother reason for the price difference is the Federal excise tax which is six cents a gallon higher than on gasoline (thank you Congress). In fact a full 20% of each dollar you pay for fuel is pure tax. Not to be outdone California tacks on another 7.25% tax on top of the Federal excise tax already in place and they still can’t seem to fix their roads.
One reason why diesel fuel today is higher priced than gasoline is because of the unintended consequences of the 2007 EPA mandated ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) fuel - and not necessarily because it costs more to produce...
Everything changed in October of 2006, when the new U.S. ULSD regulations were implemented. Current U.S. ULSD is regulated to contain no more than 15-parts per million sulfur. In actual practice, U.S. ULSD contains just 7 or 8-ppm, which perhaps not coincidentally allows our ULSD to meet the somewhat stricter 10-ppm sulfur regulations in Europe. So, ULSD produced here in the United States has, for the first time, become acceptable for use in Europe. According to a 2/08 article in Reuters, entitled "ANALYSIS-Exports keep U.S. diesel prices above gasoline", they reported that U.S. diesel fuel is currently being exported in quantity. As reported in a 7/08 article in Forbes online, entitled "ANALYSIS-US oil firms seek drilling access, but exports soar", "U.S exports of diesel fuel in April averaged 387,000 barrels per day, up almost seven-fold from 59,000 barrels a day in the same month a year earlier." The economics of "Supply & Demand" no longer apply to the U.S. diesel fuel market. American truckers could boycott diesel fuel, and it wouldn't necessarily produce lower diesel fuel prices.
According to a June 2008 article at MSN, entitled: Why is the U.S. exporting gasoline and diesel?, they report that U.S. oil companies were exporting more than 1.8 million barrels of crude oil, gasoline, diesel fuel, jet fuel and other refined products per day. The top five buyers of U.S. petroleum products were Mexico, Canada, the Netherlands, Chile and Singapore. This article also indicated that Venezuela owns three CITGO refineries in the United States, and that about 30,000 barrels of refined products per day are being shipped back to Venezuela, where government-subsidized gas/diesel is currently being sold for a whopping $0.19 per gallon.
NEW YORK, Feb 11 (Reuters) - U.S. diesel prices are running at an unusual premium to gasoline, a historically odd relationship that may become the norm due to strong growth in global demand for the fuel.
The shift may lead domestic oil refiners, which have tended to focus heavily on producing gasoline to meet U.S. motorist demand, to invest in units that can make exportable diesel for the domestic and world market.
"I think the economics will draw refiners to higher levels of diesel fuel production over time. The fact that the U.S. imports gasoline and exports diesel is a good indicator that the market is increasingly calling for more diesel and refiners will have to make this investment," said Kevin Lindemar, an analyst with Global Insight.
U.S. diesel prices have jumped 84.5 percent in a year to $3.28 a gallon -- compared to the jump in gasoline prices of 78 percent to about $2.97 a gallon, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.
The surge in diesel prices follows a move by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency mandating a cleaner form of the fuel which is more costly to produce and which is also more readily exportable to the European market and other diesel-hungry regions.
"You do have areas of the world, like Europe, where the passenger car fleet is heavily weighted to diesel," said Kevin Lindemar, an analyst with Global Insight in Massachusetts.
Before the cleaner diesel mandate, much of the diesel produced in the United States fell far short of European fuel specifications, which meant the fuel tended to stay in the United States, keeping stockpiles full and prices low.
So in summary, since more U.S.-refined diesel is getting exported, making the diesel that remains even MORE valuable, thus driving up the price.
much of the diesel used in the U.S. is refined in Europe
And what credible source does that false information come from. We do get a lot of refined gas from the EU. Not diesel from any source I can find.
Most diesel fuel consumed in the United States is produced in U.S. refineries. In 2007, about 4.5 percent was imported from foreign countries, mainly Canada, and the Virgin Islands.
Everything changed in October of 2006, when the new U.S. ULSD regulations were implemented.
I happen to KNOW that is false. BP/ARCO started selling ULSD in CA back in 2004. I bought my Passat TDI in April 2005. I used ARCO ULSD for the whole time I owned it. The price much of the time was less than RUG. Better find some reliable sources to back up your anti-diesel onslaught. The diesel taxes here have been higher for years. The oil companies have gradually raised the prices to compensate for the higher energy content of diesel. There is no other logical reason.
I got to get over and kick up the heat on the hybrid threads. That love fest has gone on long enough.
This post by you, Gary, is perfect proof of how these forums are so "one dimensional" and in the forums, one person is not likely to be able to "truly explain" their motivations and speculations and musings and opinions without having someone ELSE on the forum MISUNDERSTAND them in major ways.
When you pick one statement or one sentence out of a post and attack the premise presented in that one sentence, you are MISSING the fact that the person was trying to make a point based on the ENTIRETY of the post.
I'm replying to you mostly Gary, because you do this a LOT on these forums- and we all do it sometimes - we pick one sentence or statement out of an entire post and make a point about that one sentence, completely ignoring the fact that the person was using that one sentence as a PIECE of a larger point.
Allow me to counter your post all at once rather than specific statements from it.
You say "Mercedes feels that the OIL Companies are over charging for refining" but that is not an article by "Mercedes." It's an opinion of one of their employees. He does not claim to be speaking on behalf of the entire company. And he does not present any facts behind the belief - he just states where prices are and what HE THINKS is the reason for them. I respect the man, but I don't have to believe his opinions just because I respect him. My grandfather was a racist, and I respected him for other reasons but did not believe his opinions of black people.
Well, I have posted about 7 articles this morning that all clearly explain the "market driven" REASONS why diesel fuel is higher now. None of them include anything or any industry analyst (who does analysis for a LIVING) saying that they believe the prices of diesel fuel are artificially high.
And nothing Dr. Weber said directly tied his opinion to a belief that the oil companies are out to kill diesel car sales in America. He could not directly say that because that would have placed him in the basket as a conspiracy wacko. He just stated that he thought refinery prices were too high and that HE did not see and demand-driven reasons for it.
Well, if he were to come here on this forum today, he could have read all the stories and pages I posted here today and his belief might be swayed a little. There ARE INDEED perfectly logical "market-driven" reasons for diesel prices to be high right now. It's clear to anyone who is not blinded by diesel loyalty.
I have never bad-mouthed clean diesel. I never will. I am pro-clean-diesel, and I have been ever since I was convinced that the exhaust was clean enough to pass regulations.
I would buy a diesel car if one fit my lifestyle and budget and polluted less than the TCH I now own and had reasonable-enough MPG to pay for the extra cost of the diesel fuel. Right now that car does not exist in the USA. Even if I bought a Jetta TDI, I would only get about 5 miles per gallon more in city driving than my TCH and that alone would not pay for the extra cost of diesel.
I would kindly at this point ASK you, Gary, Man to Man, to NOT put me in the category of "anti-diesel" any longer. I am not. I just don't want people to become misguided about the dangers of dirty diesel exhaust, and I don't want any silly talk about oil companies trying to kill diesel cars to be thrown around. That's just ridiculous and silly to say that.
And I have NEVER, EVER said that "NOBODY wants a diesel car anyway." You have taken the fact that I said "diesel demand is not overly high in the USA" which is 100% TRUE and mis-translated into me saying that no one wants diesel cars, which is untrue and is something I have never stated.
jlbl, you're right. 16000 miles + and diesels start to make economic sense, depending on the car. I'm around 15000 so a bit marginal but I like the other attributes of diesels. If anyone picks their fuel purely on economic grounds then they're gambling that things will stay as they are, fuel price-wise. 60+ years experience tell me that's a brave gamble so it's as well to have a list of preferred attributes when choosing your car and weight them as you feel appropriate. As far as you are concerned, I think I'm probably preaching to the converted - sorry.
We Europeans have our diesels nicely sorted out and your quip about "Islanders" wasn't even slightly offensive.............to this Brit. However, as you only mentioned Brits and Irish you may be in trouble with the Corsicans, Maltese and Sicilians.................and that last one could be serious. Yeah, I know, Corsica is French and Siciliy is Italian but you know what I mean.
There are pro-dieselers, diesel un-decideds and anti-diesel islanders. Guess this forum has a fair few of all camps, which is healthy. Oh, and entertaining.
There is one correction in the information from NY times; The refineries in USA are the ones sending excess diesel to europe not the other way around. And the reason is because they can make a good profit selling it for higher profit, that's not counting the currency conversion benefit. Crude oil get traded with Dollar currency, but refined oil products can get traded using any currency.
You say "Mercedes feels that the OIL Companies are over charging for refining" but that is not an article by "Mercedes."
Better post it again for you to read. You would like to think that it is not a concerted effort by the oil companies to discourage diesel cars. Sorry Charlie YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
Mercedes-Benz has accused profiteering oil companies of ripping off diesel buyers and fears such action may kill the U.S. diesel passenger car market in its infancy. While oil prices have hit new highs, the pump price of diesel has surged to be more than a dollar a gallon higher than gasoline in some U.S. states, even though it is cheaper and less energy intensive to produce. And Mercedes-Benz, which introduced its E320 BlueTEC diesel passenger car into the U.S. in 2006, is fighting back, with Daimler board member, Dr Thomas Weber, insisting there was no demand-driven reason for diesel prices to be so high.
You are the one that is behind on the market price for diesel fuel versus gasoline. If in you area is 18 cents difference, that does not make it the rule. In my region Pa, VA, MD, NY, the difference is between 60 cents and $1. So, be happy if you can find 18 cents, which I doubt it does exist. I do search around the country using AAA web site or GuzBuddy, and I did not see that price difference in any region. :shades:
Well, you are correct that SOMEONE is wrong, Charlie.
And the name of that person is "anyone who ignores 7 posts which ALL indicate "market-driven" reasons for diesel prices to be high" and focuses only on ONE incorrect opinion.
Well, that prove my point, You need first to get some english classes, before you start posting. Coming from you, I should take your vilification as a compliment You are addicted to the smell of diesel, you need help. Currently even in Europe statistics shows people are switching to gasoline cars, because of the difference between the two fuels is shrinking. And it takes three to four years to break iven for the added premium they pay up front for the diesel engine. There you have it, have a nice day .
you may be in trouble with the Corsicans, Maltese and Sicilians
Good point. I might have trouble with Balearic and Canary islanders as well. In particular the latter frequently depict peninsular Spaniards as 'the Goths' (short name for Visigoths).
Product Refined Gallons/Barrel Gasoline 19.3 Distillate Fuel Oil (Inc. Home Heating and Diesel Fuel) 9.83 Kerosene Type Jet Fuel 4.24 Residual Fuel Oil 2.10 Petroleum Coke 2.10 Liquified Refinery Gases 1.89 Still Gas 1.81 Asphalt and Road Oil 1.13 Petrochemical Feed Supplies 0.97 Lubricants 0.46 Kerosene 0.21 Waxes 0.04 Aviation Fuel 0.04 Other Products 0.34 Processing Gain 2.47 Source: EIA March 2004 Data 90%+ Of Everything you eat,drink, the gas you put in your car, the roads you drive on got there by way of diesel fuel. Trains, ships, semi-trucks, construction equiptment, mass transit, farm equipt etc. If I add passenger vehicle's to the list, what on earth am I going to do with all that Gasoline!!! Did you know if I processed into biodiesel all the used!! veggie oil, Wendy's, Planter's, frito-lay etc. I could offset diesel supply by 20%. Why can't I Plug my brand new prius in ? We've had battery chargers since the invention of the battery. I could start every morning with a fully charged battery. How much would your mpg increase by? Remember all those short trips we make. I doubt that the added cost would exceed the cost of the tire and wheel on the same car.
How do I keep chargers out of the hybrid's. If you don't put charger's in your hybrids we will buy 100million dollars of your stock over the next three months thru one of our shell corporation's. If you then put those charger's in. We will sell all that stock in one week!
The crude oil breakdown and the first paragraph refer to motive! The last paragraph refer's to one of many possible scenarios.
Went through spellcheck and it smashed my paragraphs together Gasoline!!! is the last word of the first paragraph. I usually only read these blog's seldom do I respond.
Well, I have posted about 7 articles this morning that all clearly explain the "market driven" REASONS why diesel fuel is higher now. None of them include anything or any industry analyst (who does analysis for a LIVING) saying that they believe the prices of diesel fuel are artificially high.
Of course you have. And why would you post anything that did not put forth your anti-diesel agenda? You are not going to find hard facts on price manipulation my friend. If you or I could find that so could Congress and they are out looking for blood from the OIL Companies all the time. At least in the press. They all gladly take the contributions then vote in more corporate welfare. But that is running this into politics.
I see Camel Back VW has a few Jetta TDIs under MSRP listed. The over priced diesel may be a blessing for those wanting a Jetta TDI at a good price.
Gary says, "And why would you post anything that did not put forth your anti-diesel agenda?"
C'Mon, Gary, are you entirely Serious?
I have posted DOZENS of pro-diesel entries on this forum. Do you completely ignore them because you have this incorrect image of me as being anti-diesel?
Not one of those articles I posted today was anti-diesel in ANY way. Not one of them. They were people in the industry explaining why diesel fuel costs so much right now.
If you want to believe one Mercedes board member over the REAL truth, then you will put yourself in the category of people who are incorrect about the reasons.
I have never bad-mouthed clean diesel. I never will. I am pro-clean-diesel, and I have been ever since I was convinced that the exhaust was clean enough to pass regulations.
I would buy a diesel car if one fit my lifestyle and budget and polluted less than the TCH I now own and had reasonable-enough MPG to pay for the extra cost of the diesel fuel. Right now that car does not exist in the USA. Even if I bought a Jetta TDI, I would only get about 5 miles per gallon more in city driving than my TCH and that alone would not pay for the extra cost of diesel.
I would kindly AGAIN at this point ASK you, Gary, Man to Man, to NOT put me in the category of "anti-diesel" any longer. I am not. I just don't want people to become misguided about the dangers of dirty diesel exhaust, and I don't want any silly talk about oil companies trying to kill diesel cars to be thrown around. That's just ridiculous and silly to say that.
Big oil has bought Congressmen since day one. It is the same today.
Henry Ford said that alcohol was “a cleaner, nicer, better fuel for automobiles than gasoline”
Rockefeller had waste gas to get rid of:
Well, John D. Rockefeller, under the ruse of Christian temperance, gave 4 million dollars to a group of old ladies and told them to fight for Prohibition (they successfully used the money to buy off Congress). Why? Rockefeller owned Standard Oil, the main company pushing gas as an alternative fuel to alcohol.
Mercedes Benz claim the oil companies are playing games with diesel prices today. I for one believe MB over someone on Edmund's with an anti diesel bias.
Your last round of debate was NO ONE wants a CLEAN Diesel now that it is here
larsb: That DOES NOT MEAN that there is a massive, country-wide demand for diesel cars.
And you posted dozens of anti diesel articles to try and substantiate your claim.
I said that the oil companies are trying to block diesel cars. You wanted to know who would think that besides those here that are pro diesel. I post a piece by Mercedes no less and you discount it as unimportant opinion.
You have argued that low EPA ratings on the diesels was good even though it deprived VW Jetta TDI buyers out of some of the Tax Credit money they should be getting.
You throw in an article now and then on diesels that will never make it to the USA and say that proves you are pro diesel.
I say the bulk of your posts say you are ANTI-DIESEL.... :sick:
US Internal Revenue Service Grants Tax Credits for BlueTEC
WASHINGTON, Sept. 17 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Right in time for Mercedes-Benz's rollout of BlueTEC diesel vehicles in October, the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has granted Daimler the Qualified Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit, which qualifies the ML 320 BlueTEC, R 320 BlueTEC, and GL 320 BlueTEC buyers up to $1,800 in tax credits.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) certified to the IRS that the Mercedes-Benz BlueTEC vehicles meet the strict emission requirements, a status thus far only granted to hybrid-electric vehicles. The Mercedes-Benz BlueTEC clean diesel vehicles are the first diesel vehicles to be granted the tax credit demonstrating both high fuel efficiency and low emissions. "Diesel passenger vehicles are one important piece of the future technology puzzle," said Margo Oge, Director of EPA's Office of Transportation and Air Quality. "Clean diesel is a viable, efficient technology to help improve our air quality and energy security."
The IRS has determined that purchasers of the ML 320 BlueTEC may qualify for a $900 tax credit, purchasers of the R 320 BlueTEC may qualify for a $1,550 tax credit, and purchasers of the GL 320 BlueTEC may qualify for a $1,800 tax credit depending on their individual tax status. The vehicles, which are the first diesel passenger vehicles to meet all 50 state emissions requirements and get up to 600 miles to the tank, go on sale October 1.
HMMM, that's ODD. Why would the EPA, with all their SUPPOSED ANTI-DIESEL BIAS, grant such lofty clean vehicle status to a lowly diesel vehicle?
What you cleverly left out of your post is the last sentence in my post where you got that quote you put into post #6866:
larsb says, There is also no doubt that diesel car demand is growing in the USA. But RIGHT NOW, it's not overwhelmingly high. It's there, but it's not huge. It's JUST NOT.
Now, unless I had an instant onset of Alzheimer's Disease this morning, I'm Pretty Darn Sure that I CLEARLY said there is diesel demand and it is growing, but that it is not CURRENTLY overwhelming.
I don't think any logical person could construe that statement as being "anti-diesel" in ANY fashion.
How can I demand car's that are not available. I would love to have a 2009 jetta tdi sportwagon. But I can't afford the premium the dealer's are asking. Mercedes, wayyy out of my league!
They also limited the fuel warranty to B5 anything higher and you void the warranty. It's impossible to judge demand when so little is offered!
HMMM, that's ODD. Why would the EPA, with all their SUPPOSED ANTI-DIESEL BIAS, grant such lofty clean vehicle status to a lowly diesel vehicle?
What you are not looking at is the FACT that the fuel savings on say an ML320 CDI over the gas version is MUCH higher than the gas savings of a Prius over a Corolla. So why did the Prius get a $3150 tax credit and the ML320 CDI only $900. It is all based on the flawed EPA tests. And the anti-diesel bias in the regulatory agencies.
Gary, do you or anyone know, the biodiesel limit on the europian spec 2009 jetta tdi, I've tried, have'nt found it yet. What I'm looking for is it different than the 09 us spec. If so, why?
Gary, I hope that by the time I am have achieved your level of life experience that I can avoid becoming so set in my ways that evidence and facts cannot sway my opinions. ( Nothing personal at all - just making a general statement about something that happens to people around 60-65 years old. I have seen that trait manifested in my mother too.)
To form an opinion and stick to it in the light of any and all possible refutation is not in the cards for my future. Personally, I have vowed to never stop learning and/or stop examining the evidence to form my opinions. I have told my kids about it and remind them all the time about not letting me get too set in my ways.
Such is why I am no longer anti-diesel like I was when I first joined this forum. I have taken in and accepted and processed the knowledge about clean diesel vehicles and realized that "yes they can keep the exhaust suitably clean" with modern technology. And in so doing, my opinion changed. Imagine that.
And the answer (which you already know) is that the Prius achieved 60 miles per gallon on the old, EVEN MORE FLAWED EPA mileage test. You know, the one which was far more accurate for the diesel vehicles. That's why it got the $3150.
The automakers are a little gun shy on biodiesel. Many people run B100 with no problem at all. There are some issues with regard to quality of the biodiesel and cold weather. I would say you would not have any trouble running B20 from any reputable dealer. Mercedes gave support to running B100 in their cars in Hawaii. The local source for biodiesel is top quality.
To form an opinion and stick to it in the light of any and all possible refutation is not in the cards for my future.
I believe you have broken that rule in regards to the EPA. While I could compromise my beliefs on the EPA if the ratings had NO significance other than a point of reference. They are a hard fast figure used to calculate tax credits. That means they need to be above reproach. Which they are not now nor were they before. I don't know how you can be so sure of the integrity of the EPA when you admit they were flawed in the past and have been proven flawed currently. At least with the old test the VW TDI would have a chance at a decent Tax Credit. I know you do not think the Prius tax credit should be taken back for the erroneous 60 MPG it was based on. The IRS could send a letter to all recipients of the tax credit please send a US check for $1900 as the EPA lied about the Prius mileage.
You can continue to post pro government propaganda and I will have to refute when it is wrong. Or we can agree you are wrong and leave it at that. :shades:
Comments
For the second time, please re-read my post and stop making up things that I never said. :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
My references to "big oil" and their supposed lobbying efforts came from THIS post, which is not one of yours:
Gary says, "And who might they be? Are there any more powerful than the OIL COMPANIES?"
If I was mistaken in my interpretation of that, Gary, please let me know. We all know the Oil Companies have political clout and POWER, but there is no indication that they have ever trained that power in the direction of harming sales of diesel cars in the USA, is there?
Other than some opinions?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That post was not a mistake on my part. You mentioned lobbying so my reply fishtailed right in there with your comment. I'm sure Gary read the post too, so it was a "two for one" reply.
Mercedes Benz does not agree with your Utopian view of our society.
Mercedes exec says Big Oil conspiring to kill U.S. diesel market
Mercedes-Benz has accused profiteering oil companies of ripping off diesel buyers and fears such action may kill the U.S. diesel passenger car market in its infancy. While oil prices have hit new highs, the pump price of diesel has surged to be more than a dollar a gallon higher than gasoline in some U.S. states, even though it is cheaper and less energy intensive to produce
And Mercedes-Benz, which introduced its E320 BlueTEC diesel passenger car into the U.S. in 2006, is fighting back, with Daimler board member, Dr Thomas Weber, insisting there was no demand-driven reason for diesel prices to be so high.
“We knew this surge was coming in the U.S.,” Dr Weber, who heads up the Mercedes-Benz Research and Development division, told Leftlane.
“I believe there is definitely optimization of earnings by oil companies to take advantage of the higher usage of diesel today. There is not another plausible or economic explanation.”
While gasoline has risen 113 cents a gallon in California in the last 12 months, diesel has surged by 199.5 cents in the same period and its pump price surge has outstripped gasoline by 95.7 cents on the East Coast and 95.3 cents in the Mid West.
“The most important driver is a huge trend in diesel use in Europe, but that doesn’t explain it,” Dr Weber insisted.
“There are limitations on capacity on the refining sites, but that’s not it, either, really.
“Diesel production costs are less than the gasoline production costs so the only idea you can find is that these companies are in the business of making a profit, so that is what they do now.”
The EIA’s pump price breakdowns seem to confirm Mercedes-Benz’s allegations. While the cost of the basic crude oil accounts for 73 percent of the pump price of gasoline, it only accounts for 61 percent of the diesel price.
Instead, the EIA figures show oil companies are slugging diesel buyers by more than double diesel’s refining costs compared to gasoline. Only 10 percent of the gasoline price is in refining, while that figure leaps to 21 percent for diesel.
Nevertheless, Dr Weber predicted the massive gap between gasoline and diesel prices in the U.S., Australia and Europe would soon come to an end and, even in the meantime, they would not affect Daimler’s upcoming plans to hit the U.S. market in force with its diesel engines.
“For the customer, if they experience the advantages of diesel, they will stay with diesel anyway,” he insisted.
“The technology is 20 to 30 percent more efficient than gasoline and has more torque at lower rpm and that’s what most buyers actually use.”
Benz will launch BlueTEC diesel versions of its R-, GL and ML-class SUVs in October after receiving 50-state registration approval for the technology in March this year.
The major premise of his opinion goes right out the window in the first paragraph of your story. He seems to think that Big Oil "somehow" controls the price of diesel fuel. But they cannot, and DO NOT control it. If they DID, and they REALLY wanted to "kill diesel in the USA," then they would just price it at $8 a gallon.
Here's a boondoggle for you to figure out, Gary, since you are apparently having such a hard time finding PROOF that Big Oil is "anti-diesel." (which they aren't)
Does not Big Oil produce oil for fuel in Europe, also? Did they "fight" diesel proliferation there, also? If they did, they lost.
Oh, wait, no, I'm wrong. What happened in Europe is that the PEOPLE LIKE DIESEL CARS.
Maybe someday we can say that about the USA buyer. We can't today, that's for sure.
That equates to well over $200. a month in fuel savings; It's real easy to justify a couple of grand additional cost, especially when the diesel is going to be worth more come trade time, and the reason a lot of people will buy diesels when they become more widely available.
I think I will accept MB's Dr. Weber's opinion based on facts over your anti diesel diatribe any day of the week. Oil companies may or may not have influence over the price of crude oil They do have control over the cost of refining and distribution. That was Dr. Weber's point that you obviously did not want to accept.
.
Larsb- 0
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Something about pots & kettles comes to mind.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Really, Gary? You can STILL after all this time think I am anti-clean-diesel? You are jesting, right? Good one !! You got me !!!
What are the facts that Dr. Weber presented? I did not notice any facts, only opinion.
Gary - somewhere in the teens.
Math counts
Text size: increase text sizedecrease text size
The Gas Watch
Is diesel fuel more economical than gas? Not so fast -- do the math
Steven Cole Smith | Automotive Editor
September 9, 2008
Diesel advocates frequently point to Europe as an indication of how diesel-powered vehicles get better mileage and are consequently more economical than gasoline-powered vehicles. Indeed, in some European countries, well more than half the cars and trucks use diesel.
But there's some indication that higher diesel-fuel prices -- which are affecting both the U.S. and European markets -- are changing that perception. Auto Express, a British car magazine, recently looked at four car models that offer both diesel and gasoline engines in Europe, and calculated how long it would take owners to recover the cost of the diesel engine, which -- in three of the four cases -- is significantly more expensive than the gasoline-engined cars.
The magazine assumes a driver travels an average of 12,000 miles a year. With a Toyota Yaris, it would take a driver three years and six months, driving a distance of 42,402 miles, before a diesel buyer would "break even" with the lower cost of the gas-powered model. For a Ford Focus driver, the diesel break-even would take three years and five months, and 40,724 miles. For a Volkswagen Tiguan SUV, four years and four months, and 52,111 miles.
For the Mercedes-Benz C-Class, though, the gas-powered model is more expensive than the diesel, "so diesel buyers save cash from day one," the magazine reported.
Why are diesel fuel prices higher than gasoline prices?
Historically, the average price of diesel fuel has been lower than the average price of gasoline. However, this is not always the case. In some winters where the demand for distillate heating oil is high, the price of diesel fuel has risen above the gasoline price. Since September 2004, the price of diesel fuel has been generally higher than the price of regular gasoline all year round for several reasons. Worldwide demand for diesel fuel and other distillate fuel oils has been increasing steadily, with strong demand in China, Europe, and the United States, putting more pressure on the tight global refining capacity. In the United States, the transition to ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel has affected diesel fuel production and distribution costs. Also, the Federal excise tax on diesel fuel is 6 cents higher per gallon (24.4 cents per gallon) than the tax on gasoline
Why are West Coast diesel fuel prices higher and more variable than others?
Diesel prices on the West Coast, especially in California (CA), are relatively higher than other regions of the country, partly because of taxes, but mainly because of supply issues. The State of California assesses a combined State and local sales and use tax of 7.25 percent on top of the 24.4 cents/gallon Federal excise tax and an 18.0 cents/gallon State tax. Washington’s tax of 34 cents/gallon is one of the highest in the country. Besides taxes, West Coast retail prices are more variable than others because there are relatively few supply sources: 21 of the 36 refineries located in West Coast states are in CA. California refineries need to be running at near full capacity just to meet in-state demand. If more than one refinery in the region experiences operating difficulties at the same time, the diesel supply may become very tight and prices may spike. The West Coast’s substantial distance from Gulf coast and foreign refineries is such that any unusual increase in demand or reduction in supply results in a large price response in the market before relief supplies can be delivered. The farther away the necessary
That came from THIS page.
More:
Another explanation
True. However, there are a few factors driving up the cost of diesel. First of all, much of the diesel used in the U.S. is refined in Europe, where, due to favorable tax policies and fuel efficiency, diesel cars have made a major comeback. This increases demand for diesel fuel. Meanwhile, here in the states high gas prices have led Americans to consume less gasoline. In turn, refineries have scaled back their overall production to adjust to the lessened demand. However, the demand for diesel fuel remains the same even though refineries are processing less fuel overall.
Lawrence Goldstein of the Energy Policy Research Foundation told The New York Times that "it is as if sirloin had become so expensive that demand dropped, so farmers raised fewer cows, reducing the supply of hamburger — but hamburger remained as popular as ever."
It is also important to note that the federal excise tax on diesel is six cents higher per gallon than gasoline, according to the Department of Energy.
High diesel prices create an interesting conundrum for carmakers like Mercedes and BMW, which are trying to bring clean diesel vehicles to the U.S. These vehicles, while efficient, might now face a tough consumer response.
And:
From the NY Times
It’s because higher prices affect demand for each oil product differently, and diesel is “the one product the world really wants,” said Lawrence J. Goldstein, a director of the Energy Policy Research Foundation, a nonprofit group financed by oil producers, refiners and marketers, with some government help.
The price spread has attracted the attention of Congress. This month, John Felmy, chief economist of the American Petroleum Institute, an industry trade association, testified before the highway subcommittee of the House Transportation Committee. “U.S. overall petroleum demand, including demand for gasoline, has flattened,” he said. “However, in the U.S., demand for diesel has remained strong.”
He added: “This follows a long-term trend here and around the world. Over the past five years, U.S. demand for highway diesel has been rising at triple the rate of gasoline.”
Part of the American demand for transportation fuel is met by refineries in Europe, a link that usually helps keep prices down. But demand for diesel is rising in Europe as passenger car ownership and use there grow; many of those newly purchased vehicles are diesel-powered, a choice that had been encouraged by tax policy there.
As a result, production at European refineries is geared toward processing crude oil to meet the demand for diesel. That produces surplus gasoline, which the refineries export to the East Coast of the United States, experts said. That does nothing for diesel supply here.
A strange assumption for a dedicated magazine if we take into consideration that over here (Spain, France) a diesel is ' traditionally' considered to be a good choice when the driver travels an average of up from 16,000 miles a year (about 25,000 km per year).
Below that distance one can still buy diesel due to other factors linked to diesels (e.g., durability, necessity to pull weights, having a satisfactory drive without needing high revs), but not for economy reasons.
Yet, after all, we continentals know well that an islander is an islander :shades: (No offense intended to Britons and Irish people
Regards,
Jose
The FACT is that Mercedes feels that the OIL Companies are over charging for refining. You asked for ANY source that felt the oil companies could be involved in a plan to stop the sale of diesel cars. I present it from as reliable a source as any you have ever presented and it is not good enough. There is not a chance that you will EVER be pro diesel. You only give lip service to clean diesel when you are caught bad mouthing diesel. Which you have done a lot of over the last few years.
You have the same mindset as the mindless people at CARB. Diesel was never clean enough because CARB said so. Now that they have given in you say NOBODY wants a diesel car anyway. If your line of posting is NOT anti diesel what would you call it?
I love it!!! :shades:
A Very Good PDF by a couple of industry analysts. This is a 14-page study with stats and analysis of them . At no point is "oil company price gouging" brought up as a possible cause.
And:
RVers have a say
A big part of the reason diesel prices have increased is because in 2006 fuel emission standards kicked in and instead of being 500 parts per million (ppm) sulfur content our legislators are requiring 80 ppm. A barrel of crude oil is now around $110 and out of that barrel we squeeze 7.8 gallons of diesel fuel and 19.4 gallons of gasoline. So why are diesel prices now higher than gasoline prices? “Worldwide demand for diesel fuel and other distillate fuel oils has been increasing steadily, with strong demand in China, Europe and the U.S. putting more pressure on the tight global refining capacity.”
nother reason for the price difference is the Federal excise tax which is six cents a gallon higher than on gasoline (thank you Congress). In fact a full 20% of each dollar you pay for fuel is pure tax. Not to be outdone California tacks on another 7.25% tax on top of the Federal excise tax already in place and they still can’t seem to fix their roads.
And:
A pro-diesel website pipes in
One reason why diesel fuel today is higher priced than gasoline is because of the unintended consequences of the 2007 EPA mandated ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) fuel - and not necessarily because it costs more to produce...
Everything changed in October of 2006, when the new U.S. ULSD regulations were implemented. Current U.S. ULSD is regulated to contain no more than 15-parts per million sulfur. In actual practice, U.S. ULSD contains just 7 or 8-ppm, which perhaps not coincidentally allows our ULSD to meet the somewhat stricter 10-ppm sulfur regulations in Europe. So, ULSD produced here in the United States has, for the first time, become acceptable for use in Europe. According to a 2/08 article in Reuters, entitled "ANALYSIS-Exports keep U.S. diesel prices above gasoline", they reported that U.S. diesel fuel is currently being exported in quantity. As reported in a 7/08 article in Forbes online, entitled "ANALYSIS-US oil firms seek drilling access, but exports soar", "U.S exports of diesel fuel in April averaged 387,000 barrels per day, up almost seven-fold from 59,000 barrels a day in the same month a year earlier." The economics of "Supply & Demand" no longer apply to the U.S. diesel fuel market. American truckers could boycott diesel fuel, and it wouldn't necessarily produce lower diesel fuel prices.
According to a June 2008 article at MSN, entitled: Why is the U.S. exporting gasoline and diesel?, they report that U.S. oil companies were exporting more than 1.8 million barrels of crude oil, gasoline, diesel fuel, jet fuel and other refined products per day. The top five buyers of U.S. petroleum products were Mexico, Canada, the Netherlands, Chile and Singapore. This article also indicated that Venezuela owns three CITGO refineries in the United States, and that about 30,000 barrels of refined products per day are being shipped back to Venezuela, where government-subsidized gas/diesel is currently being sold for a whopping $0.19 per gallon.
And:
The UK obviously understands diesel prices
NEW YORK, Feb 11 (Reuters) - U.S. diesel prices are running at an unusual premium to gasoline, a historically odd relationship that may become the norm due to strong growth in global demand for the fuel.
The shift may lead domestic oil refiners, which have tended to focus heavily on producing gasoline to meet U.S. motorist demand, to invest in units that can make exportable diesel for the domestic and world market.
"I think the economics will draw refiners to higher levels of diesel fuel production over time. The fact that the U.S. imports gasoline and exports diesel is a good indicator that the market is increasingly calling for more diesel and refiners will have to make this investment," said Kevin Lindemar, an analyst with Global Insight.
U.S. diesel prices have jumped 84.5 percent in a year to $3.28 a gallon -- compared to the jump in gasoline prices of 78 percent to about $2.97 a gallon, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.
The surge in diesel prices follows a move by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency mandating a cleaner form of the fuel which is more costly to produce and which is also more readily exportable to the European market and other diesel-hungry regions.
"You do have areas of the world, like Europe, where the passenger car fleet is heavily weighted to diesel," said Kevin Lindemar, an analyst with Global Insight in Massachusetts.
Before the cleaner diesel mandate, much of the diesel produced in the United States fell far short of European fuel specifications, which meant the fuel tended to stay in the United States, keeping stockpiles full and prices low.
So in summary, since more U.S.-refined diesel is getting exported, making the diesel that remains even MORE valuable, thus driving up the price.
much of the diesel used in the U.S. is refined in Europe
And what credible source does that false information come from. We do get a lot of refined gas from the EU. Not diesel from any source I can find.
Most diesel fuel consumed in the United States is produced in U.S. refineries. In 2007, about 4.5 percent was imported from foreign countries, mainly Canada, and the Virgin Islands.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/diesel/
Which means that the OIL COMPANIES are in control of the price of refining diesel. Why did the price go up in the last couple years?
Everything changed in October of 2006, when the new U.S. ULSD regulations were implemented.
I happen to KNOW that is false. BP/ARCO started selling ULSD in CA back in 2004. I bought my Passat TDI in April 2005. I used ARCO ULSD for the whole time I owned it. The price much of the time was less than RUG. Better find some reliable sources to back up your anti-diesel onslaught. The diesel taxes here have been higher for years. The oil companies have gradually raised the prices to compensate for the higher energy content of diesel. There is no other logical reason.
I got to get over and kick up the heat on the hybrid threads. That love fest has gone on long enough.
When you pick one statement or one sentence out of a post and attack the premise presented in that one sentence, you are MISSING the fact that the person was trying to make a point based on the ENTIRETY of the post.
I'm replying to you mostly Gary, because you do this a LOT on these forums- and we all do it sometimes - we pick one sentence or statement out of an entire post and make a point about that one sentence, completely ignoring the fact that the person was using that one sentence as a PIECE of a larger point.
Allow me to counter your post all at once rather than specific statements from it.
You say "Mercedes feels that the OIL Companies are over charging for refining" but that is not an article by "Mercedes." It's an opinion of one of their employees. He does not claim to be speaking on behalf of the entire company. And he does not present any facts behind the belief - he just states where prices are and what HE THINKS is the reason for them. I respect the man, but I don't have to believe his opinions just because I respect him. My grandfather was a racist, and I respected him for other reasons but did not believe his opinions of black people.
Well, I have posted about 7 articles this morning that all clearly explain the "market driven" REASONS why diesel fuel is higher now. None of them include anything or any industry analyst (who does analysis for a LIVING) saying that they believe the prices of diesel fuel are artificially high.
And nothing Dr. Weber said directly tied his opinion to a belief that the oil companies are out to kill diesel car sales in America. He could not directly say that because that would have placed him in the basket as a conspiracy wacko. He just stated that he thought refinery prices were too high and that HE did not see and demand-driven reasons for it.
Well, if he were to come here on this forum today, he could have read all the stories and pages I posted here today and his belief might be swayed a little. There ARE INDEED perfectly logical "market-driven" reasons for diesel prices to be high right now. It's clear to anyone who is not blinded by diesel loyalty.
I have never bad-mouthed clean diesel. I never will. I am pro-clean-diesel, and I have been ever since I was convinced that the exhaust was clean enough to pass regulations.
I would buy a diesel car if one fit my lifestyle and budget and polluted less than the TCH I now own and had reasonable-enough MPG to pay for the extra cost of the diesel fuel. Right now that car does not exist in the USA. Even if I bought a Jetta TDI, I would only get about 5 miles per gallon more in city driving than my TCH and that alone would not pay for the extra cost of diesel.
I would kindly at this point ASK you, Gary, Man to Man, to NOT put me in the category of "anti-diesel" any longer. I am not. I just don't want people to become misguided about the dangers of dirty diesel exhaust, and I don't want any silly talk about oil companies trying to kill diesel cars to be thrown around. That's just ridiculous and silly to say that.
And I have NEVER, EVER said that "NOBODY wants a diesel car anyway." You have taken the fact that I said "diesel demand is not overly high in the USA" which is 100% TRUE and mis-translated into me saying that no one wants diesel cars, which is untrue and is something I have never stated.
So please stop mis-characterizing my views.
I did not say that. It came from more than one story which I posted.
We Europeans have our diesels nicely sorted out and your quip about "Islanders" wasn't even slightly offensive.............to this Brit. However, as you only mentioned Brits and Irish you may be in trouble with the Corsicans, Maltese and Sicilians.................and that last one could be serious. Yeah, I know, Corsica is French and Siciliy is Italian but you know what I mean.
There are pro-dieselers, diesel un-decideds and anti-diesel islanders. Guess this forum has a fair few of all camps, which is healthy. Oh, and entertaining.
Better post it again for you to read. You would like to think that it is not a concerted effort by the oil companies to discourage diesel cars. Sorry Charlie YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
Mercedes-Benz has accused profiteering oil companies of ripping off diesel buyers and fears such action may kill the U.S. diesel passenger car market in its infancy. While oil prices have hit new highs, the pump price of
diesel has surged to be more than a dollar a gallon higher than gasoline in
some U.S. states, even though it is cheaper and less energy intensive to
produce.
And Mercedes-Benz, which introduced its E320 BlueTEC diesel passenger car
into the U.S. in 2006, is fighting back, with Daimler board member, Dr
Thomas Weber, insisting there was no demand-driven reason for diesel prices
to be so high.
And the name of that person is "anyone who ignores 7 posts which ALL indicate "market-driven" reasons for diesel prices to be high" and focuses only on ONE incorrect opinion.
I might have trouble with Balearic and Canary islanders as well. In particular the latter frequently depict peninsular Spaniards as 'the Goths' (short name for Visigoths).
Regards,
Jose
Gasoline 19.3
Distillate Fuel Oil (Inc. Home Heating and Diesel Fuel) 9.83
Kerosene Type Jet Fuel 4.24
Residual Fuel Oil 2.10
Petroleum Coke 2.10
Liquified Refinery Gases 1.89
Still Gas 1.81
Asphalt and Road Oil 1.13
Petrochemical Feed Supplies 0.97
Lubricants 0.46
Kerosene 0.21
Waxes 0.04
Aviation Fuel 0.04
Other Products 0.34
Processing Gain 2.47
Source: EIA March 2004 Data
90%+ Of Everything you eat,drink, the gas you put in your car, the roads you drive on got there by way of diesel fuel. Trains, ships, semi-trucks, construction equiptment, mass transit, farm equipt etc. If I add passenger vehicle's to the list, what on earth am I going to do with all that Gasoline!!! Did you know if I processed into biodiesel all the used!! veggie oil, Wendy's, Planter's, frito-lay etc. I could offset diesel supply by 20%. Why can't I Plug my brand new prius in ? We've had battery chargers since the invention of the battery. I could start every morning with a fully charged battery. How much would your mpg increase by? Remember all those short trips we make. I doubt that the added cost would exceed the cost of the tire and wheel on the same car.
How do I keep chargers out of the hybrid's. If you don't put charger's in your hybrids we will buy 100million dollars of your stock over the next three months thru one of our shell corporation's. If you then put those charger's in. We will sell all that stock in one week!
The crude oil breakdown and the first paragraph refer to motive!
The last paragraph refer's to one of many possible scenarios.
Went through spellcheck and it smashed my paragraphs together
Gasoline!!! is the last word of the first paragraph. I usually only read these blog's seldom do I respond.
Of course you have. And why would you post anything that did not put forth your anti-diesel agenda? You are not going to find hard facts on price manipulation my friend. If you or I could find that so could Congress and they are out looking for blood from the OIL Companies all the time. At least in the press. They all gladly take the contributions then vote in more corporate welfare. But that is running this into politics.
I see Camel Back VW has a few Jetta TDIs under MSRP listed. The over priced diesel may be a blessing for those wanting a Jetta TDI at a good price.
C'Mon, Gary, are you entirely Serious?
I have posted DOZENS of pro-diesel entries on this forum. Do you completely ignore them because you have this incorrect image of me as being anti-diesel?
Not one of those articles I posted today was anti-diesel in ANY way. Not one of them. They were people in the industry explaining why diesel fuel costs so much right now.
If you want to believe one Mercedes board member over the REAL truth, then you will put yourself in the category of people who are incorrect about the reasons.
I would buy a diesel car if one fit my lifestyle and budget and polluted less than the TCH I now own and had reasonable-enough MPG to pay for the extra cost of the diesel fuel. Right now that car does not exist in the USA. Even if I bought a Jetta TDI, I would only get about 5 miles per gallon more in city driving than my TCH and that alone would not pay for the extra cost of diesel.
I would kindly AGAIN at this point ASK you, Gary, Man to Man, to NOT put me in the category of "anti-diesel" any longer. I am not. I just don't want people to become misguided about the dangers of dirty diesel exhaust, and I don't want any silly talk about oil companies trying to kill diesel cars to be thrown around. That's just ridiculous and silly to say that.
Henry Ford said that alcohol was “a cleaner, nicer, better fuel for automobiles than gasoline”
Rockefeller had waste gas to get rid of:
Well, John D. Rockefeller, under the ruse of Christian temperance, gave 4 million dollars to a group of old ladies and told them to fight for Prohibition (they successfully used the money to buy off Congress). Why? Rockefeller owned Standard Oil, the main company pushing gas as an alternative fuel to alcohol.
Mercedes Benz claim the oil companies are playing games with diesel prices today. I for one believe MB over someone on Edmund's with an anti diesel bias.
At least, FINALLY, you are not calling me anti-diesel. FINALLY !!!
Because I never said that. The people who wrote the stories said it. I am just the messenger.
If you want to call people "anti-diesel" just because they produce REAL REASONS why diesel fuel is priced high, then your beef is with THEM.
larsb: That DOES NOT MEAN that there is a massive, country-wide demand for diesel cars.
And you posted dozens of anti diesel articles to try and substantiate your claim.
I said that the oil companies are trying to block diesel cars. You wanted to know who would think that besides those here that are pro diesel. I post a piece by Mercedes no less and you discount it as unimportant opinion.
You have argued that low EPA ratings on the diesels was good even though it deprived VW Jetta TDI buyers out of some of the Tax Credit money they should be getting.
You throw in an article now and then on diesels that will never make it to the USA and say that proves you are pro diesel.
I say the bulk of your posts say you are ANTI-DIESEL.... :sick:
Daimler Paves the Way for Diesel Passenger Cars
US Internal Revenue Service Grants Tax Credits for BlueTEC
WASHINGTON, Sept. 17 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Right in time for
Mercedes-Benz's rollout of BlueTEC diesel vehicles in October, the U.S.
Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has granted Daimler the Qualified
Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit, which qualifies the ML 320 BlueTEC, R 320
BlueTEC, and GL 320 BlueTEC buyers up to $1,800 in tax credits.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) certified to the IRS
that the Mercedes-Benz BlueTEC vehicles meet the strict emission
requirements, a status thus far only granted to hybrid-electric vehicles.
The Mercedes-Benz BlueTEC clean diesel vehicles are the first diesel
vehicles to be granted the tax credit demonstrating both high fuel
efficiency and low emissions. "Diesel passenger vehicles are one important
piece of the future technology puzzle," said Margo Oge, Director of EPA's
Office of Transportation and Air Quality. "Clean diesel is a viable,
efficient technology to help improve our air quality and energy security."
The IRS has determined that purchasers of the ML 320 BlueTEC may
qualify for a $900 tax credit, purchasers of the R 320 BlueTEC may qualify
for a $1,550 tax credit, and purchasers of the GL 320 BlueTEC may qualify
for a $1,800 tax credit depending on their individual tax status. The
vehicles, which are the first diesel passenger vehicles to meet all 50
state emissions requirements and get up to 600 miles to the tank, go on
sale October 1.
HMMM, that's ODD. Why would the EPA, with all their SUPPOSED ANTI-DIESEL BIAS, grant such lofty clean vehicle status to a lowly diesel vehicle?
The EPA is out of control and not accountable !!!
Never said that. Again, you just interpreted it to mean that through your diesel-colored glasses.
larsb says, There is also no doubt that diesel car demand is growing in the USA. But RIGHT NOW, it's not overwhelmingly high. It's there, but it's not huge. It's JUST NOT.
Now, unless I had an instant onset of Alzheimer's Disease this morning, I'm Pretty Darn Sure that I CLEARLY said there is diesel demand and it is growing, but that it is not CURRENTLY overwhelming.
I don't think any logical person could construe that statement as being "anti-diesel" in ANY fashion.
They also limited the fuel warranty to B5 anything higher and you void the warranty.
It's impossible to judge demand when so little is offered!
What you are not looking at is the FACT that the fuel savings on say an ML320 CDI over the gas version is MUCH higher than the gas savings of a Prius over a Corolla. So why did the Prius get a $3150 tax credit and the ML320 CDI only $900. It is all based on the flawed EPA tests. And the anti-diesel bias in the regulatory agencies.
To form an opinion and stick to it in the light of any and all possible refutation is not in the cards for my future. Personally, I have vowed to never stop learning and/or stop examining the evidence to form my opinions. I have told my kids about it and remind them all the time about not letting me get too set in my ways.
Such is why I am no longer anti-diesel like I was when I first joined this forum. I have taken in and accepted and processed the knowledge about clean diesel vehicles and realized that "yes they can keep the exhaust suitably clean" with modern technology. And in so doing, my opinion changed. Imagine that.
And the answer (which you already know) is that the Prius achieved 60 miles per gallon on the old, EVEN MORE FLAWED EPA mileage test. You know, the one which was far more accurate for the diesel vehicles. That's why it got the $3150.
I believe you have broken that rule in regards to the EPA. While I could compromise my beliefs on the EPA if the ratings had NO significance other than a point of reference. They are a hard fast figure used to calculate tax credits. That means they need to be above reproach. Which they are not now nor were they before. I don't know how you can be so sure of the integrity of the EPA when you admit they were flawed in the past and have been proven flawed currently. At least with the old test the VW TDI would have a chance at a decent Tax Credit. I know you do not think the Prius tax credit should be taken back for the erroneous 60 MPG it was based on. The IRS could send a letter to all recipients of the tax credit please send a US check for $1900 as the EPA lied about the Prius mileage.
You can continue to post pro government propaganda and I will have to refute when it is wrong. Or we can agree you are wrong and leave it at that. :shades: