I travel the state of SC; and for all practical purposes there is parity between rug & diesel. Diesel is selling for anywhere from .04 less to .12 more than rug. If you remember, it wasn't too long ago that diesel was actually cheaper. Don't know that we'll see that again, but the $1.00 spread between the two is no longer in my area.
Now all I need is for someone beside VW to bring in their diesels.
The truth is even all of the above are slated to bring diesels to the US markets. I understand Toyota is rumored to bring a diesel Tundra, as is Ford with their 150 model. I think this is influenced a bit by the mink and manure set as Tundra's are made in TX and TX has one of the larger populations of Tahoe/Suburbans and/or light truck turbo diesels. GM has also gone on record for their 1500 series platform, as they have for literally decades produced turbo diesels for their 2500/3500 series trucks.
A Cummins Diesel is really the Cadillac of American Turbo Diesels.
Results (238 Highway Miles) Jetta: 45.4 MPG /// Prius: 44.8 MPG Since the Prius so handily whipped the Jetta in the city, we were hoping the highway portion might provide a closer test result. And over the exact same route at the exact same speeds and under the same conditions, it appears America has a surprising new fuel-economy champ.
The Bottom Line It appears clear, no matter what the driving conditions, that the Toyota Prius will return around 44 mpg—if driven with a sane right foot. That's impressive, and that means the Prius remains the most fuel-efficient car on the market. The Jetta falls short in pure city driving, but it does meet (and barely beats) the Prius when it comes to highway fuel economy in our testing.
The price of fuel, of course, remains a big factor. On our test days, regular unleaded was $3.79 a gallon and diesel was $4.09. So on the city drive, which approximated a week's worth of stop-and-go commuting, the Jetta required about $10 more fuel to do the same job. Over a year, that would equate to about $500 if fuel prices stabilize. Granted, that's a big "if," and 500 bucks ain't nothing with an economy like ours. But the Jetta is eligible for a $1300 "Advanced Lean Burn Technology Motor Vehicle federal income tax credit," and $1300 buys a lot of diesel. Looked at another way, $1300 reduces the Jetta TDi's $22,640 base price to $21,340 if you include the destination charge. The base price of the 2008 Toyota Prius, by comparison, is $22,660. So on those terms, the Prius becomes $1320 more expensive than the new Jetta. Surprisingly enough, the Prius is not eligible for this tax credit, although Toyota may be gearing up for that fight.
But tax credits aside, when it comes down to which of these two popular efficient cars is more fun and more comfortable to drive everyday, it's an easy pick: We like the Jetta TDi, and the fuel-economy numbers in the real world for VW's new player make it—gasp!—a legit Prius fighter.
To be fair to the Prius, though, it actually averaged 44.7 MPG during the test and the Jetta only 38.7.
So for losing 6 mpg you can have a more sporty car which is more likely break down (based on historical information on both cars) and will cost more to fuel.
(you knew I could not get out without adding a little CON-Tro-VER-Sy !!!)
Really there is NOTHING controversial. It is really in the "city,stop and go driving" parameter and had been acknowledged in many places and times. So if one does the majority of city, stop and go driving: the likes of downtown Toyko, NYC, for example/etc. etc., then Prius has the"city mpg" edge. However this auto engine shut off is not exclusive to hybrids. You have to wonder why they even designed the engine to come on at speeds below 25 mph, aka NYC traffic. Indeed the BMW 1 series diesel has the automatic diesel engine shut off during extended (parameter) idling, so this is not advance technical rocket science. My take is when VW integrates this, it will probably trump Prius again.
Another valid question (but probably off topic) would be why is one even driving in those environments, when there are plenty of other options as advocated by you and at least some others?. As politically correct and sophisticated as the likes of NYC are, they have taken FAR too long (just) APPROVING the implemention of Prius (hybrid) taxi cabs into the 18,000 (+plus) taxi cab fleet. Why do you need a Ford Crown Victoria V8 idling most of the day in NYC traffic vs a tiny 4 banger Prius that is shut off when sitting in traffic?
Moving on, if you do more of highway, etc diesels have HUGE edges, in that there are not as many stop and go situations in THAT environment to name one. Suffice to say, diesels are better adapted to the USA highway system than almost any like model gasser, hybrid,battery and/or combination.
Toyota this week announced that it was dropping the diesel development due to the price of the fuel and the current and future shrinkage in the big truck market. It's redirecting its efforts toward a unibody truck built on the Highlander platform with an I4 gasser and a hybrid powertrain.
That seems like a fairly accurate assessment on both vehicles. So much for the oft-stated put down that the Prius is useless on the Highways.
Similar costs Similar size One is sportier than the other Similar FE on the Highways One has better City FE One has a much better reputation for reliability, dependability
As you noted this appraisal gives both groups of drivers a fair presentation in order to choose which characteristic is more important in choosing a new vehicle.
First, they did not say anything about the details of the highway portion of the drive including what the speed was. I just watched a mpg comparison on Top Gear where they compared a Prius and a BMW M3. Ten laps around a test track. As far as speed goes, the two finished the ten laps neck and neck. The BMW got 19 mpg and the Prius got 17 mpg. Much more real world.
Second, taking the actual two cars tested, the Prius cost 4 to 5 thousand more including the tax credit. There was a reason the Prius was loaded....they all come that way these days. In the real world there would also probably be a hefty added profit sticker on the Prius. That price difference would buy a lot of diesel.
Third, even in this test the Prius was no fun to drive, especially with a hyper miler at the wheel !
I am not sure what your post means, as Toyota is probably one of the largest world wide seller/producer of turbo diesel products AND has been for a long time!? So are you saying no gasser/ turbo diesel Tundras and its substitute is a Highlander platform (A-BAT) with gasser/ hybrid in its place? That is NOT what this article is saying!? (if it is the same article you were thinking of. It would have been easier if you had linked the one you had in mind)
If your thesis is correct, Toyota messed up royally and big time. In any case the llight truck market remains. It is probably still @ 40% of the vehicle fleet and as you say stagnant in new light truck sales. If I were needing a large truck, a turbo diesel would be almost required and a no brainer at the very least. When I went to the local Toyota showroom to see the Tundra, I truly was surprised how HUGE it really is. It is GREAT for those that want/need that size and platform. As such a lot of light truck users see the Tundra as good but is edged out by GM/Ford products.
Second, taking the actual two cars tested, the Prius cost 4 to 5 thousand more including the tax credit. There was a reason the Prius was loaded....they all come that way these days. In the real world there would also probably be a hefty added profit sticker on the Prius. That price difference would buy a lot of diesel.
Sorry this is an incorrect statement.
Also you omitted to mention that they compared the Jetta DSG Sedan to the Prius hatchback. Now do the same pricing comparo using the Jetta DSG SportWagon to the hatchback. The pricing benefit in favor of the Jetta all but disappears.
As I noted the comparo gives a good presentation for a prospective buyer. If sporty driving is what rings your bell then the Jetta is the better choice. If saving fuel, utility, having a lower total cost after 10 yrs and peace of mind is more important then the Prius is a better choice.
There was no hypermiler behind the wheel of that vehicle. I can take any good operating vehicle in the US and beat those results by 10% easily. A real hypermiler can double that percentage.
I driven too many miles over the last 25 yrs ( 30000 to 50000 annually ) to care anything about 'sportiness'. But that's my personal choice. I recognize other choices are just as valid. Both are good options.
Essentially the diesel Tundra was going to be debuted at the end of 2009 or 2010. It was all but finished in development and the space was set aside in San Antonio to build the vehicle.
It's now on hold indefinitely.
The A-BAT (code name) unibody truck will get the attention and the development monies if the sourcing quotes make sense. If fuel continues the way its going Toyota's view then there may be no rebound in BOF trucks.
We were wined and dined, but only after listening to a parade of top scientists and researchers tell us, in unsparing detail, how the planet is running out of oil and water; how the biofuels we look to as potential replacements for oil aren't worth the power and water it takes to make 'em, and how we now are consuming 40 percent more resources each year than the planet can sustain.
A new smaller highly-fuel-efficient I4 gasser with a hybrid option may gain more sales ( profits ) than pursuing a more efficient huge BOF monster.
In many respects the Prius/Jetta TDI is an apples to oranges comparison. This is NOT to say a comparo can not be made!
Indeed for example, the closer comparos would be Jettas TDI/gasser . Civic gasser/hybrid/TDI. Prius' gasser/hybrid. . Toyota has wisely stayed away from Prius' direct gasser/hybrid comparo's as the premium is really not worth the so called "advantages".
So for example between a Toyota Corolla TDI/gasser- a no brainer is the TDI! Civic gasser/hybrid comparos, history says the Civic Hybrid BOMBED !!! This is despite the fact it is a very good hybrid! and car. Lots of reasons, but the major one is Civic had a gasser to compare it against. Prius as I have indicated did/does NOT.
Given your 30,000 to 50,000 miles per year would you rather get 38 mpg or 56 mpg with a (1,000) premium ? The BE is easily less than the first year (given your mileage) It is 1,316 gals vs 893 gals= 423 gals x 4=$1,692.
The 03 Jetta TDI premium over the 1.8T was $246. as I remembered. The fuel mileage was 50 mpg vs 30 mpg. Over 25,000 miles for 4 years consumption was 1000 gals vs 3333 gals. I would guess in your cost effectiveness thinking, burning 3333 gals when 2,000 gals will do; makes economic sense. To boot the 1.8T requires premium. :lemon:
It's comparing the "highest mileage diesel 5-passenger sedan" to the "highest mileage hybrid 5-passenger sedan" and in that regard, it is right on the money to compare them.
It again gets back to what I have been saying all along: that the highest mileage diesels are not let into the country. Digging deeper into the background of the gen IV (03 Jetta TDI) world Jetta TDI's got 52 mpg vs the 50 mph we get on a daily basis. The world Jetta comes with a 6 speed manual vs a 5 speed manual and bigger injectors! ? How oxymoronic is that? As good as 50 mpg is, math indicates 52 is better!!? (4%) This is also true about the highest mileage gassers !!! A gasser for example is the 40 mpg so called "Smart Car"!? This has been available in the world markets for a while. If high fuel prices and so called less dependency on foreign oil is a real priority, why didnt it hit the US markets as soon as it hit the worlds? Now it really has not much appeal to me, but at the same time its meager 40 mpg is a BIG improvement over the 27 mpg standard, defacto 22 mpg and beats by 5 mpg the 2012 35 mpg standard.
As an aside, the Honda Civic gasser gets 38-42 mpg and holds 4/5 folks. I'd be ungrateful if I didn't say I was happy with it. But I got to tell you, I would be tickled pink with a Honda Civic TDI with 52-56 mpg!
The non-hybrid Prius is the Corolla Matrix/Pontiac Vibe. With the same equipment the two are exactly $4000 apart in price. That's not unintentional. $20300 vs $24300. Both are 4 cyl 5 door hatchback with similar room and similar performance. A subject for a different forum however.
In the comparo between the Civic gasser and the Civic hybrid - with similar equipment - the hybrid wins easily... but that's a subject for a different forum.
Now looking at the Jetta TDI vs Civic gasser vs Corolla gasser, sedans all? That huge differential in the price of the diesel vehicle and the higher price of the fuel requires a lot of driving annually. I probably do drive that much so the TDI may be more cost effective. Let's see.
Using 'reported' results rather than the more conservative EPA values 2009 Corolla 39 Hwy 2008 Civic 38 Hwy 2009 Jetta TDI 43 Hwy ( 40 Edmunds / 45 PopMech )
Fuel usage/Cost based on 36000 miles annually 2009 Corolla..925 gal RUG @ 3.40......$3145 2008 Civic.....950 gal RUG @ 3.40......$3230 2009 TDI.......835 gal DF @ 3.90.........$3250 These all seem about equal since it's 36000 mi/yr. It's a nominal difference.
The only difference then would be in the prices of the underlying vehicles and the relative resale values. However these are three of the best vehicles for holding value.
Again it looks like a tossup based solely on preference not money.
..."Again it looks like a tossup based solely on preference not money. "...
One one level I do agree with this take, but on the other hand it is hard to realize your preference/s when the preference/s is/are hardly available. Again I cite 3% diesel passenger vehicle fleet. The majority of those diesels are on platforms that I do not have a current use for. Another is why do I really want to get a MB 320 TDI when what I really NEED a Civic TDI for everyday commuting? Or why do you want to commute in a FORD F250 when a Ford Fiesta does just fine solely because both are gassers? You would think it so preposterous if it were a a choice between a gasser MB 320 and a Civic ! :lemon:
And thanks for further illustrating my point about the so called "Prius" gasser only equivalents. Toyota really downplays the reality in this. So yes, my Prius alternative is the Civic. While it is true I do not routinely get 45 mpg in the Civic (as the Prius) , it does get 38-42 and costs app 13,000 LESS.
Mmmm. I couldn't go with the Corolla or Civic. TFC/IW isn't high enough on those two, so I don't fulfill my personal obligation to be fuel efficient. TFC/IW is a measure of efficiency, unlike 'mpg'.
Smaller number is better. TDI and Prius are really the same efficiency since there is 10% more energy in diesel fuel. Factor that out, they're the same. The gassers need 20-28% (call it 25%) more fuel energy to do the same amount of work as the diesel and the hybrid. Inefficient. Hey, I have a furnace with 92% heat-to-energy efficiency, and compact flourescent bulbs that are four times as efficient at converting energy to light as incandescent, why should I not also be concerned with the work-to-energy efficiency of my vehicle? 25% is a big difference. Civic and Corolla are out of consideration.
I ruled out all the compact sedans. The Corolla, Civic, Jetta, TDI, Mazda3, et al were all too small; i.e. they did not offer enough utility and fuel economy.
At that time I looked only at the hatchbacks. Under similar circumstances today only the Prius and the SportWagon would be under consideration.
However being basically cheap in regards to transportation if I was in the market today I'd look first to find a good USED hatchback like a $14000 - $15000 Prius for the best combo of utility and fuel economy.
Check the date of this article. Not to mention the speeds and mileage achieved. Over four years ago and( I still can't buy this car!!!)
Honda Diesel Sets New World Records
Date: May 07, 2004 18:07 Submitted by: Jeff Source: Honda UK PR Credibility Rating: N/A
Honda’s new Accord 2.2 i-CTDi Sport has this week set no fewer than 19 world speed records and achieved 3.07 litres / 100 km (92 imperial mpg, ~76.6 US mpg) fuel economy to boot. British racing driver Robin Liddell and freelance journalist Iain Robertson were part of the European record-setting team.
Amongst the speed records set, which were all achieved in Production Car Class B (2000 – 2500 cc), were 133.04 mph (1 mile flying start), 84.25 mph (1 mile standing start) and an average speed of 130.38 mph over a 24-hour endurance period. These records were all set at Papenburg high-speed oval test track in north-west Germany on 1 and 2 May, and are all subject to FIA ratification.
Two production cars, randomly selected by FIA officials, were used to undertake the speed records, and apart from the fitting of roll-cages, racing harnesses and radio equipment for track-to-pits communication, no other modifications were made to the cars.
Following the speed record attempts, the same two cars were then driven 419 miles from Papenburg test track to Wiesbaden, near Frankfurt in order to complete the fuel economy run. The route comprised of a mixture of motorway and non-motorway driving, during which one of the Accords achieved a staggering 92 imperial mpg (US mpg=~76.6) average.
It's here soon as the Acura TSX but it won't get anywhere near the above FE figures..Based on the NA testing cycle the ratings will likely be in the 40's which are still very good.
But it's going to be pricey and unfortunately hidden away in Honda's closet, IOW its Acura stores.
What a real interesting scenario, when I agree with LARSB !! :shades: I really think you are spot on in this assessment. Toyota will be STILL be behind; as they were when they came out with the T100.
Cummins is doing a plant upgrade (I posted I think a long while back) as they are coming out witha 150/1500 series V8 diesel engine !! 300 to 350 hp and something like 475-575 # ft of torque!? Woo HOO for those that want/ need this platform/product ! It would also be a hoot if they could get this pp into a larger sedan type vehicle. It could be a top notched platform, especially if it could pull down 35 mpg and/or better !
My single largest reason for promoting diesels, you can operate the engine on multiple types of alternative fuels. I could name 20 different feedstocks and more. If I leave out coal oil, "we don't have much of that, do we!" All the rest are renewable. With a near zero CO2 footprint. What you exhaust to the air is mostly absorbed by the plants that you get your next gallon of fuel from. Diesels ability to use alternative fuels is the single largest factor, why you can't buy a 2008 diesel accord!!! What am I going to do with all that dino oil. Follow the money!!! Nature's key to survival is diversity. Conservation and diversity is our key!!!
Diesels ability to use alternative fuels is the single largest factor, why you can't buy a 2008 diesel accord!!!
I think you are just about spot on. Otherwise why did the price of diesel start going up right in line with VW, MB & BMW launching 50 state diesels? Alternative biodiesel fuel will become feasible and practical. The argument is they have not done that to ethanol. Well they sure did in the 1980s with sugar ethanol that is a threat to fossil fuel. Not to corn ethanol. That is a BIG money maker for the oil companies. It takes at least as much fossil energy to grow and distill corn ethanol as you get BTUs in return.
Honda may still be trying to get 50 state approval. I thought they had it a year ago.
"I have clearly been out-pinheaded. Wow, I had no idea."
Is there any way that I can take that as a compliment?
"Looks like the hot ticket is to drive a fully-loaded class 8 truck (80,000 lbs) that gets 7 mpg."
It is the hot ticket if you want to move 60,000 pounds. It's none of my business how much work you want to do with your vehicle. That's for the government to dictate, apparently, by regulating fuel economy instead of fuel efficiency. A class 8 diesel is an efficient way of doing it though. You won't find any class 8s with spark ignition engines.
"Next stop -- freight trains."
Correct. Hybrid-diesel technology, and the most fuel efficient form of transportation on Earth. Won't find any SI engines there, either.
This link might be old news, but further evidence Toyota's recent decision (to suspend indefinitely diesel development) probably puts it behind the "DIESEL" power curve. GM might be far further along than they might have /continue to publically acknowledge/d and most folks may think. This might be in stark contrast to what some higher ranking GM officials (Lutz) might have gone on record saying.
..."The premium V-8 diesel engine is expected to deliver class-leading refinement, horsepower and torque andfulfill multiple vehicle applications (bold and larger font, my sic) with ratings in excess of 310 horsepower and 520 lb-ft of torque. For my .02 cents killer applications would be: 1. rear wheel drive Cadillac turbo diesel touring car 2. twin turbo diesel Corvette (touring edition. (45-70 mpg as per an old Larsb post)
GM (Opel, Saab, Vauxhall and GMDAT ) currently offers 17 diesel engine variants in 45 vehicle lines around the world. GM sells more than one million diesel engines annually, with products that offer a range of choices from the 1.3L four-cylinder diesel engine sold in the Opel Agila and Corsa, up to the 6.6L V-8 Duramax diesel sold in full-size vans, heavy duty pickups and medium duty trucks in the U.S."..
Not to get excessively wordy, but if they (Congress on through the food/logistical chain) really plan to implement less dependence on foreign oil, the current refining technology proffers a mathmatical certainty : that IF we continue to use RUG to PUG, D#2 HAS to be produced. (actually it is vice versa) (see eia.gov, what is in a barrel of oil)
In the very unlikely case of being able to EXPORT most of US domestic oil production, we would be in the opposite sides of the ledger, in being able to EXPORT D2 to European markets !! ( 98% US passenger vehicle fleet uses RUG to PUG, less than 49% European passenger vehicle fleet uses RUG to PUG)
Then, of course, you need to factor in all the diesels that Ford, VW/AUDIGroup and Mercedes make/sell worldwide for similar applications plus the Peugeot, Renault, Citroen, Fiat, (incl Alfa Romeo), BMW and Chrysler group oil-burners. Then there are the Diesels from Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Misubishi, Hyundai, Kia, Suzuki and Mazda................have I forgotten anyone ?
The World is awash with small-to-medium Diesels and we get 'em all here in Europe. We even get a diesel Cadillac, (albeit only the BLS which is just a re-bodied old Saab).
Come on USA - get with the programme, (please note correct spelling ). The orchard's full of low-hanging fruit. Just needs picking.
I do like the idea of a proper GT car - a real Grand Tourer, not a hyperactive screamer - with a big diesel. I suspect that Audi will put it into production first with the R8 and we've already seen the prototype but a V8 Diesel Corvette or XKR or DB9 would be a hoot. Wouldn't be too surprised to see a Diesel Bentley appear at some stage, either. Now that would be ultra cool, IMO. :shades:
Had a dog. I have been to Kansas. We all pretty much understand fuel markets. We all pretty much understand the American buyers view on diesel cars. It is hard to buy any more than 2% passenger diesel population when there are not any more on the market to pump the population up. :lemon:
ruking1 says, "We all pretty much understand fuel markets."
Well, there ARE exceptions to every rule.
Anyone who thinks there are "Anti-Diesel Ninjas" out there somewhere whispering in the ears of the regulators to "Kill The Diesel Cars" doesn't quite get it.
ALA Contrare. The problem is we (but as you say there are exceptions to the rule ; or perhaps the exception IS the rule) get it all TOO well. I really have no qualms about most people paying more per mile driven. I just would rather not, if I have the choice. So it is pretty obvious why the choices are deliberately limited.
as noted several times previously herein. GM, Ford and Toyota are deliberately limiting production and sales here. However it has nothing to do with anti-diesel ninjas nor corrurpt agencies of our corrupt governmen nor some cabal of oil companies. The reason is a lot simpler than that...
...it's staring us back in the mirror every morning.
WE the N American buying public are at fault!!! WE do not want our small compact vehicles to be anything more than low-priced basic econoboxs. WE do not want to pay a premium for fuel in order to save fuel. WE do not want advanced technology for saving fuel if we have to pay more for it.
Hybrids have some success. Diesels have a ultra-loyal following. However Mr/Mrs Everyday Small Car Buyer doesn't want to spend $20000+ for a small econobox with expensive fuel efficient capabilities ( Mr ruking1 is a prime example in rejecting expensive hybrid tehcnnology for a $13000 Civic ). If the buyers are going to spend that much money they want a midsized auto.
The GM and Ford and Toyota marketing types recognize this basic drive when buyers go to showrooms. The automakers must provide vehicles that the basic buyer will actually want to buy. Those would be Corollas and Civics and Cobalts and Focus', all basic gassers.
You agree from a marketing/sales perspective with what I have been saying. However pent up diesel demand is much greater than 2% of the passenger vehicle fleet.
So truly "WE" are NOT serious about better fuel mileage when we continue to have a defact 22 mpg fleet wide with a stated 27 mpg standard.
A small gadget that can be fitted to diesel engines boosts fuel efficiency by up to 19% and can make them run more cleanly, engineers report.
A weak electric field is used to make fuel less viscous before it is injected into the engine. That makes it possible to spray smaller drops that burn more completely.
The device was developed at Temple University in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and costs less than $200 to produce.
In tests over six months on a 2002 Mercedes-Benz 300D sedan, a prototype device increased fuel efficiency by 12 to 15% under urban driving conditions, and 19% in highway driving – taking it from 32 to 38 miles per gallon.
"This is the biggest efficiency increase since the advent of fuel injection," claims Rongjia Tao from Temple University. The device has been licensed to Californian firm Save the World Air, which is now testing it in road haulage vehicles. Fluctuating flow
An electric field makes diesel thinner because some molecules in the fuel become charged and aggregate together, reducing their overall surface area. That means less friction between them, and a less viscous fuel.
Tao and colleagues believe fuel efficiency gains were lower under stop-start urban driving conditions because the rate at which fuel flows through their device constantly varies.
They are working on a version that varies its electric field to match fuel flow rate and keep viscosity constantly reduced.
Matt Thomas of CFD Research Corporation works on similar fuel electrification techniques. He says fitting the device to new cars will not produce such spectacular efficiency gains, but adds that it would still cut emissions.
"[If] you charge spray prior to fuel injection you could lower particulate emissions by as much as a factor of 10."
"The message is clear: the time for clean diesel is now," said Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the Diesel Technology Forum. "With only a few choices available to consumers, diesels have already dramatically cut energy consumption and reduced CO2 emissions. With more choices on the way, Americans will continue to benefit as we continue to introduce the public to this new generation of clean diesel cars and light truck choices."
Only half of those surveyed, for instance, believe diesel-powered vehicles get better gas mileage than gasoline-powered vehicles. New diesel technologies, in fact, get up to 40 percent better fuel efficiency.
For the survey, pollsters from Yankelovich Partners interviewed 1,003 Americans in the national sample and 403 adults in California between July 14 and 21 for the survey. The sampling error is 3.1 percent plus or minus.
"Most people are surprised to learn that diesel pickup trucks outsold hybrids 2.5 to 1 from 2003-2007 and saved 21 times more fuel than all hybrids combined," Schaeffer said.
Count me among the group who would be "surprised" by that statement. He's obviously not talking about in the USA - must be talking about worldwide.
We can rest assured, however, that if true, he forgot to mention that the pickups "out-polluted" the hybrids by huge amounts, too.
Yeah, locomotives have been doing it for years. All they lack are the batteries.
They have the diesel/electric thing down & use regenerative braking. Let's see, they've been available & in increasing use since the early/mid '50's, so I guess the concept is only about 50 years "behind the times," as they used to say.
Before the 50s! GM built diesel-electric buses for Public Service (NJ) back in 1940. Instead of a conventional transmission, the diesel engine generated electricity for the same "chopper" motors used on trolley buses. Essentially, the engine replaced the overhead wires and poles. The accelerator summoned more power from the engine which sent more electricity to the wheels.
There is no denying that the market for fuel-efficient cars is strong. If there were more TDIs and more Priuses available, the sales numbers for both those cars would shoot up.
What can I say... YOU posted the article. Selling all you make is always preferable to coulda, woulda, shoulda, wanna. If I were a Prius buyer, I would be concerned about getting the "new batch" of batteries after the shortage.
Comments
Now all I need is for someone beside VW to bring in their diesels.
A Cummins Diesel is really the Cadillac of American Turbo Diesels.
Results (238 Highway Miles)
Jetta: 45.4 MPG /// Prius: 44.8 MPG
Since the Prius so handily whipped the Jetta in the city, we were hoping the highway portion might provide a closer test result. And over the exact same route at the exact same speeds and under the same conditions, it appears America has a surprising new fuel-economy champ.
The Bottom Line
It appears clear, no matter what the driving conditions, that the Toyota Prius will return around 44 mpg—if driven with a sane right foot. That's impressive, and that means the Prius remains the most fuel-efficient car on the market. The Jetta falls short in pure city driving, but it does meet (and barely beats) the Prius when it comes to highway fuel economy in our testing.
The price of fuel, of course, remains a big factor. On our test days, regular unleaded was $3.79 a gallon and diesel was $4.09. So on the city drive, which approximated a week's worth of stop-and-go commuting, the Jetta required about $10 more fuel to do the same job. Over a year, that would equate to about $500 if fuel prices stabilize. Granted, that's a big "if," and 500 bucks ain't nothing with an economy like ours. But the Jetta is eligible for a $1300 "Advanced Lean Burn Technology Motor Vehicle federal income tax credit," and $1300 buys a lot of diesel. Looked at another way, $1300 reduces the Jetta TDi's $22,640 base price to $21,340 if you include the destination charge. The base price of the 2008 Toyota Prius, by comparison, is $22,660. So on those terms, the Prius becomes $1320 more expensive than the new Jetta. Surprisingly enough, the Prius is not eligible for this tax credit, although Toyota may be gearing up for that fight.
But tax credits aside, when it comes down to which of these two popular efficient cars is more fun and more comfortable to drive everyday, it's an easy pick: We like the Jetta TDi, and the fuel-economy numbers in the real world for VW's new player make it—gasp!—a legit Prius fighter.
To be fair to the Prius, though, it actually averaged 44.7 MPG during the test and the Jetta only 38.7.
So for losing 6 mpg you can have a more sporty car which is more likely break down (based on historical information on both cars) and will cost more to fuel.
(you knew I could not get out without adding a little CON-Tro-VER-Sy !!!)
Another valid question (but probably off topic) would be why is one even driving in those environments, when there are plenty of other options as advocated by you and at least some others?. As politically correct and sophisticated as the likes of NYC are, they have taken FAR too long (just) APPROVING the implemention of Prius (hybrid) taxi cabs into the 18,000 (+plus) taxi cab fleet. Why do you need a Ford Crown Victoria V8 idling most of the day in NYC traffic vs a tiny 4 banger Prius that is shut off when sitting in traffic?
Moving on, if you do more of highway, etc diesels have HUGE edges, in that there are not as many stop and go situations in THAT environment to name one. Suffice to say, diesels are better adapted to the USA highway system than almost any like model gasser, hybrid,battery and/or combination.
Similar costs
Similar size
One is sportier than the other
Similar FE on the Highways
One has better City FE
One has a much better reputation for reliability, dependability
As you noted this appraisal gives both groups of drivers a fair presentation in order to choose which characteristic is more important in choosing a new vehicle.
Next up..Gen 3 Prius vs the new TDI.
Well, on this particular test, the difference in hwy mileages between the Jetta TDI and the Prius was a whopping
0.6 MPG
so, I don't know if that would be considered a HUGE edge.....:)
First, they did not say anything about the details of the highway portion of the drive including what the speed was. I just watched a mpg comparison on Top Gear where they compared a Prius and a BMW M3. Ten laps around a test track. As far as speed goes, the two finished the ten laps neck and neck. The BMW got 19 mpg and the Prius got 17 mpg. Much more real world.
Second, taking the actual two cars tested, the Prius cost 4 to 5 thousand more including the tax credit. There was a reason the Prius was loaded....they all come that way these days. In the real world there would also probably be a hefty added profit sticker on the Prius. That price difference would buy a lot of diesel.
Third, even in this test the Prius was no fun to drive, especially with a hyper miler at the wheel !
Larsb is right. Big win for the Jetta.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
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If your thesis is correct, Toyota messed up royally and big time. In any case the llight truck market remains. It is probably still @ 40% of the vehicle fleet and as you say stagnant in new light truck sales. If I were needing a large truck, a turbo diesel would be almost required and a no brainer at the very least. When I went to the local Toyota showroom to see the Tundra, I truly was surprised how HUGE it really is. It is GREAT for those that want/need that size and platform. As such a lot of light truck users see the Tundra as good but is edged out by GM/Ford products.
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Sorry this is an incorrect statement.
Also you omitted to mention that they compared the Jetta DSG Sedan to the Prius hatchback. Now do the same pricing comparo using the Jetta DSG SportWagon to the hatchback. The pricing benefit in favor of the Jetta all but disappears.
As I noted the comparo gives a good presentation for a prospective buyer. If sporty driving is what rings your bell then the Jetta is the better choice. If saving fuel, utility, having a lower total cost after 10 yrs and peace of mind is more important then the Prius is a better choice.
There was no hypermiler behind the wheel of that vehicle. I can take any good operating vehicle in the US and beat those results by 10% easily. A real hypermiler can double that percentage.
I driven too many miles over the last 25 yrs ( 30000 to 50000 annually ) to care anything about 'sportiness'. But that's my personal choice. I recognize other choices are just as valid. Both are good options.
It's now on hold indefinitely.
The A-BAT (code name) unibody truck will get the attention and the development monies if the sourcing quotes make sense. If fuel continues the way its going Toyota's view then there may be no rebound in BOF trucks.
We were wined and dined, but only after listening to a parade of top scientists and researchers tell us, in unsparing detail, how the planet is running out of oil and water; how the biofuels we look to as potential replacements for oil aren't worth the power and water it takes to make 'em, and how we now are consuming 40 percent more resources each year than the planet can sustain.
A new smaller highly-fuel-efficient I4 gasser with a hybrid option may gain more sales ( profits ) than pursuing a more efficient huge BOF monster.
Toyota ought to just get them one or two heavy duty diesel Tundras and leave the gasser trucks to other folks.
Indeed for example, the closer comparos would be Jettas TDI/gasser . Civic gasser/hybrid/TDI. Prius' gasser/hybrid. . Toyota has wisely stayed away from Prius' direct gasser/hybrid comparo's as the premium is really not worth the so called "advantages".
So for example between a Toyota Corolla TDI/gasser- a no brainer is the TDI! Civic gasser/hybrid comparos, history says the Civic Hybrid BOMBED !!! This is despite the fact it is a very good hybrid! and car. Lots of reasons, but the major one is Civic had a gasser to compare it against. Prius as I have indicated did/does NOT.
Given your 30,000 to 50,000 miles per year would you rather get 38 mpg or 56 mpg with a (1,000) premium ? The BE is easily less than the first year (given your mileage) It is 1,316 gals vs 893 gals= 423 gals x 4=$1,692.
The 03 Jetta TDI premium over the 1.8T was $246. as I remembered. The fuel mileage was 50 mpg vs 30 mpg. Over 25,000 miles for 4 years consumption was 1000 gals vs 3333 gals. I would guess in your cost effectiveness thinking, burning 3333 gals when 2,000 gals will do; makes economic sense. To boot the 1.8T requires premium. :lemon:
It's comparing the "highest mileage diesel 5-passenger sedan" to the "highest mileage hybrid 5-passenger sedan" and in that regard, it is right on the money to compare them.
As an aside, the Honda Civic gasser gets 38-42 mpg and holds 4/5 folks. I'd be ungrateful if I didn't say I was happy with it. But I got to tell you, I would be tickled pink with a Honda Civic TDI with 52-56 mpg!
In the comparo between the Civic gasser and the Civic hybrid - with similar equipment - the hybrid wins easily... but that's a subject for a different forum.
Now looking at the Jetta TDI vs Civic gasser vs Corolla gasser, sedans all? That huge differential in the price of the diesel vehicle and the higher price of the fuel requires a lot of driving annually. I probably do drive that much so the TDI may be more cost effective. Let's see.
Using 'reported' results rather than the more conservative EPA values
2009 Corolla 39 Hwy
2008 Civic 38 Hwy
2009 Jetta TDI 43 Hwy ( 40 Edmunds / 45 PopMech )
Fuel usage/Cost based on 36000 miles annually
2009 Corolla..925 gal RUG @ 3.40......$3145
2008 Civic.....950 gal RUG @ 3.40......$3230
2009 TDI.......835 gal DF @ 3.90.........$3250
These all seem about equal since it's 36000 mi/yr. It's a nominal difference.
The only difference then would be in the prices of the underlying vehicles and the relative resale values. However these are three of the best vehicles for holding value.
Again it looks like a tossup based solely on preference not money.
One one level I do agree with this take, but on the other hand it is hard to realize your preference/s when the preference/s is/are hardly available. Again I cite 3% diesel passenger vehicle fleet. The majority of those diesels are on platforms that I do not have a current use for. Another is why do I really want to get a MB 320 TDI when what I really NEED a Civic TDI for everyday commuting? Or why do you want to commute in a FORD F250 when a Ford Fiesta does just fine solely because both are gassers? You would think it so preposterous if it were a a choice between a gasser MB 320 and a Civic !
And thanks for further illustrating my point about the so called "Prius" gasser only equivalents. Toyota really downplays the reality in this. So yes, my Prius alternative is the Civic.
2009 Corolla, 2745# + 300# test weight = 3045# likewise,
2008 Civic, 2630+300=2930#
2009 TDI, 3230+300=3530#
2009 Prius 2932+300 = 3232#
2009 Corolla, TFC/IW = 1/(39*3045)= 0.842e-5 gal/mi/pound
2008 Civic, TFC/IW = 1/(38*2930)= 0.898e-5 gal/mi/pound
2009 TDI, TFC/IW = 1/(43*3530)= 0.659e-5 gal/mi/pound
2009 Prius TFC/IW = 1/(44*3232)= 0.703e-5 gal/mi/pound
Smaller number is better. TDI and Prius are really the same efficiency since there is 10% more energy in diesel fuel. Factor that out, they're the same. The gassers need 20-28% (call it 25%) more fuel energy to do the same amount of work as the diesel and the hybrid. Inefficient. Hey, I have a furnace with 92% heat-to-energy efficiency, and compact flourescent bulbs that are four times as efficient at converting energy to light as incandescent, why should I not also be concerned with the work-to-energy efficiency of my vehicle? 25% is a big difference. Civic and Corolla are out of consideration.
Looks like the hot ticket is to drive a fully-loaded class 8 truck (80,000 lbs) that gets 7 mpg. That'd be roughly 3.7 times better than the TDI.
Next stop -- freight trains.
At that time I looked only at the hatchbacks. Under similar circumstances today only the Prius and the SportWagon would be under consideration.
However being basically cheap in regards to transportation if I was in the market today I'd look first to find a good USED hatchback like a $14000 - $15000 Prius for the best combo of utility and fuel economy.
Honda Diesel Sets New World Records
Date: May 07, 2004 18:07
Submitted by: Jeff
Source: Honda UK PR
Credibility Rating: N/A
Honda’s new Accord 2.2 i-CTDi Sport has this week set no fewer than 19 world speed records and achieved 3.07 litres / 100 km (92 imperial mpg, ~76.6 US mpg) fuel economy to boot. British racing driver Robin Liddell and freelance journalist Iain Robertson were part of the European record-setting team.
Amongst the speed records set, which were all achieved in Production Car Class B (2000 – 2500 cc), were 133.04 mph (1 mile flying start), 84.25 mph (1 mile standing start) and an average speed of 130.38 mph over a 24-hour endurance period. These records were all set at Papenburg high-speed oval test track in north-west Germany on 1 and 2 May, and are all subject to FIA ratification.
Two production cars, randomly selected by FIA officials, were used to undertake the speed records, and apart from the fitting of roll-cages, racing harnesses and radio equipment for track-to-pits communication, no other modifications were made to the cars.
Following the speed record attempts, the same two cars were then driven 419 miles from Papenburg test track to Wiesbaden, near Frankfurt in order to complete the fuel economy run. The route comprised of a mixture of motorway and non-motorway driving, during which one of the Accords achieved a staggering 92 imperial mpg (US mpg=~76.6) average.
GO FIGURE!!
But it's going to be pricey and unfortunately hidden away in Honda's closet, IOW its Acura stores.
Cummins is doing a plant upgrade (I posted I think a long while back) as they are coming out witha 150/1500 series V8 diesel engine !! 300 to 350 hp and something like 475-575 # ft of torque!? Woo HOO for those that want/ need this platform/product ! It would also be a hoot if they could get this pp into a larger sedan type vehicle. It could be a top notched platform, especially if it could pull down 35 mpg and/or better !
on multiple types of alternative fuels. I could name 20 different feedstocks and more. If I leave out coal oil, "we don't have much of that, do we!" All the rest are renewable. With a near zero CO2 footprint. What you exhaust to the air is mostly absorbed by the plants that you get your next gallon of fuel from. Diesels ability to use alternative fuels is the single largest factor, why you can't buy a 2008 diesel accord!!! What am I going to do with all that dino oil. Follow the money!!! Nature's key to survival is diversity. Conservation and diversity is our key!!!
I think you are just about spot on. Otherwise why did the price of diesel start going up right in line with VW, MB & BMW launching 50 state diesels? Alternative biodiesel fuel will become feasible and practical. The argument is they have not done that to ethanol. Well they sure did in the 1980s with sugar ethanol that is a threat to fossil fuel. Not to corn ethanol. That is a BIG money maker for the oil companies. It takes at least as much fossil energy to grow and distill corn ethanol as you get BTUs in return.
Honda may still be trying to get 50 state approval. I thought they had it a year ago.
Is there any way that I can take that as a compliment?
"Looks like the hot ticket is to drive a fully-loaded class 8 truck (80,000 lbs) that gets 7 mpg."
It is the hot ticket if you want to move 60,000 pounds. It's none of my business how much work you want to do with your vehicle. That's for the government to dictate, apparently, by regulating fuel economy instead of fuel efficiency. A class 8 diesel is an efficient way of doing it though. You won't find any class 8s with spark ignition engines.
"Next stop -- freight trains."
Correct. Hybrid-diesel technology, and the most fuel efficient form of transportation on Earth. Won't find any SI engines there, either.
..."The premium V-8 diesel engine is expected to deliver class-leading refinement, horsepower and torque and fulfill multiple vehicle applications (bold and larger font, my sic) with ratings in excess of 310 horsepower and 520 lb-ft of torque. For my .02 cents killer applications would be: 1. rear wheel drive Cadillac turbo diesel touring car 2. twin turbo diesel Corvette (touring edition. (45-70 mpg as per an old Larsb post)
GM (Opel, Saab, Vauxhall and GMDAT ) currently offers 17 diesel engine variants in 45 vehicle lines around the world. GM sells more than one million diesel engines annually, with products that offer a range of choices from the 1.3L four-cylinder diesel engine sold in the Opel Agila and Corsa, up to the 6.6L V-8 Duramax diesel sold in full-size vans, heavy duty pickups and medium duty trucks in the U.S."..
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Not to get excessively wordy, but if they (Congress on through the food/logistical chain) really plan to implement less dependence on foreign oil, the current refining technology proffers a mathmatical certainty : that IF we continue to use RUG to PUG, D#2 HAS to be produced. (actually it is vice versa) (see eia.gov, what is in a barrel of oil)
In the very unlikely case of being able to EXPORT most of US domestic oil production, we would be in the opposite sides of the ledger, in being able to EXPORT D2 to European markets !! ( 98% US passenger vehicle fleet uses RUG to PUG, less than 49% European passenger vehicle fleet uses RUG to PUG)
The World is awash with small-to-medium Diesels and we get 'em all here in Europe. We even get a diesel Cadillac, (albeit only the BLS which is just a re-bodied old Saab).
Come on USA - get with the programme, (please note correct spelling
I do like the idea of a proper GT car - a real Grand Tourer, not a hyperactive screamer - with a big diesel. I suspect that Audi will put it into production first with the R8 and we've already seen the prototype but a V8 Diesel Corvette or XKR or DB9 would be a hoot. Wouldn't be too surprised to see a Diesel Bentley appear at some stage, either. Now that would be ultra cool, IMO. :shades:
We've already gone over that Gary. Having problems remembering to take your memory pills?
The "reason" diesel prices went are clear to anyone without an ingrained diesel bias.
The "reason" prices are coming down now are just as clear.
Apparently, "THEY" (whomever THEY are) are losing their ability to "keep diesel prices artificially high to keep diesel cars out of the country."
Such drivel. Absolute drivel.
Speaking of which, How's Toto?
Well, there ARE exceptions to every rule.
Anyone who thinks there are "Anti-Diesel Ninjas" out there somewhere whispering in the ears of the regulators to "Kill The Diesel Cars" doesn't quite get it.
Saying that puts you outside the group who understands the issue.
Let's put it another way. The slow leak of diesels into the "system" is threatening at whole complexes of different levels.
However it has nothing to do with anti-diesel ninjas nor corrurpt agencies of our corrupt governmen nor some cabal of oil companies. The reason is a lot simpler than that...
...it's staring us back in the mirror every morning.
WE the N American buying public are at fault!!! WE do not want our small compact vehicles to be anything more than low-priced basic econoboxs. WE do not want to pay a premium for fuel in order to save fuel. WE do not want advanced technology for saving fuel if we have to pay more for it.
Hybrids have some success. Diesels have a ultra-loyal following. However Mr/Mrs Everyday Small Car Buyer doesn't want to spend $20000+ for a small econobox with expensive fuel efficient capabilities ( Mr ruking1 is a prime example in rejecting expensive hybrid tehcnnology for a $13000 Civic ). If the buyers are going to spend that much money they want a midsized auto.
The GM and Ford and Toyota marketing types recognize this basic drive when buyers go to showrooms. The automakers must provide vehicles that the basic buyer will actually want to buy. Those would be Corollas and Civics and Cobalts and Focus', all basic gassers.
That's what WE want them to build.
When the diesel car DEMAND gets strong enough, the cars will be here.
There is no other major cause than merely a lack of buyers.
So truly "WE" are NOT serious about better fuel mileage when we continue to have a defact 22 mpg fleet wide with a stated 27 mpg standard.
Amazing
A small gadget that can be fitted to diesel engines boosts fuel efficiency by up to 19% and can make them run more cleanly, engineers report.
A weak electric field is used to make fuel less viscous before it is injected into the engine. That makes it possible to spray smaller drops that burn more completely.
The device was developed at Temple University in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and costs less than $200 to produce.
In tests over six months on a 2002 Mercedes-Benz 300D sedan, a prototype device increased fuel efficiency by 12 to 15% under urban driving conditions, and 19% in highway driving – taking it from 32 to 38 miles per gallon.
"This is the biggest efficiency increase since the advent of fuel injection," claims Rongjia Tao from Temple University. The device has been licensed to Californian firm Save the World Air, which is now testing it in road haulage vehicles.
Fluctuating flow
An electric field makes diesel thinner because some molecules in the fuel become charged and aggregate together, reducing their overall surface area. That means less friction between them, and a less viscous fuel.
Tao and colleagues believe fuel efficiency gains were lower under stop-start urban driving conditions because the rate at which fuel flows through their device constantly varies.
They are working on a version that varies its electric field to match fuel flow rate and keep viscosity constantly reduced.
Matt Thomas of CFD Research Corporation works on similar fuel electrification techniques. He says fitting the device to new cars will not produce such spectacular efficiency gains, but adds that it would still cut emissions.
"[If] you charge spray prior to fuel injection you could lower particulate emissions by as much as a factor of 10."
"The message is clear: the time for clean diesel is now," said Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the Diesel Technology Forum. "With only a few choices available to consumers, diesels have already dramatically cut energy consumption and reduced CO2 emissions. With more choices on the way, Americans will continue to benefit as we continue to introduce the public to this new generation of clean diesel cars and light truck choices."
Only half of those surveyed, for instance, believe diesel-powered vehicles get better gas mileage than gasoline-powered vehicles. New diesel technologies, in fact, get up to 40 percent better fuel efficiency.
For the survey, pollsters from Yankelovich Partners interviewed 1,003 Americans in the national sample and 403 adults in California between July 14 and 21 for the survey. The sampling error is 3.1 percent plus or minus.
"Most people are surprised to learn that diesel pickup trucks outsold hybrids 2.5 to 1 from 2003-2007 and saved 21 times more fuel than all hybrids combined," Schaeffer said.
Count me among the group who would be "surprised" by that statement. He's obviously not talking about in the USA - must be talking about worldwide.
We can rest assured, however, that if true, he forgot to mention that the pickups "out-polluted" the hybrids by huge amounts, too.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
They have the diesel/electric thing down & use regenerative braking. Let's see, they've been available & in increasing use since the early/mid '50's, so I guess the concept is only about 50 years "behind the times," as they used to say.
kcram - Pickups Host
FORD, CHRYSLER OFF 30%-PLUS"...
(on line version)
"Toyota, Ford, Chrysler's September sales each fall more than 30 percent"
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by Nick Bunkley New York Times
VW TDI sales sell ALL they can get!
So would the Prius if 'Yota did not have a battery supply issue.
Prius Battery Shortage
There is no denying that the market for fuel-efficient cars is strong. If there were more TDIs and more Priuses available, the sales numbers for both those cars would shoot up.