Diesels in the News

ruking1

Yes actually. Honda Civic is one of a very few that puts out a nat gas car. If you thought diesel was hard to get, ya got to make sure you are spot spot on with nat gas. I have had nat gas fork lifts and they were as bullet proof as they come.

plekto

Of course, there are CNG fueling devices that you can get for your garage. Having a gas station in your garage is a huge bonus that many people overlook. At roughly $1.50 or so every 35 miles(if filled from home), it's also amazingly inexpensive compared to any other fuel.

ruking1

You may wish to detail the cost of the product and installation of that home fuel station. @ 1.50/35 miles we are talking .0428571 cents per mile driven vs i.e., D2 3.44/50 @.0688 per mile driven. So if D2@ the much higher price (%= 61% MORE) is having a HARD time getting past 2% of the passenger vehicle fleet, you can well imagine why nat gas is at where it is at. :lemon: (essentially not measurable) God help one if it should ever go off in a garage. I would hate to be a neighbor for a min of a 300 ft radius.

As a base line, gassers that get the following type of mpg are (far) less than 25% of the passenger vehicle fleet (04 civic @ 38-42 mpg 39/3.69= ).0946153 cents per mile driven. So RUG would be 121% MORE than nat gas.This means that easily 75% of the passenger vehicle fleet consume almost exponentially more. :shades: :lemon:

As you probably have heard, clean diesel infrastructure (Qatar) will be bringing on so called "clean" diesel made from nat gas. I believe Shell is the partner that has invest 7 B in that project.link title

alltorque

Indeed! A good reason NOT to buy a MB !! Perhaps it was part of the hardball deal to be able to even sell diesels in the US market!? It is marginally ok if the urea fill up is FREE.

Urea for free ? Hmmm, remember this is MB not The Samaritans. The MB that is going to auction the last ever built McLaren-Mercedes SLR for charity. They have "donated" the car and set the opening bid price at the cars nominal list price, circa $529k IIRC. Anything it makes OVER that will go to charity. So the top bidder gives to charity AND pays MB the list price for the car. Neat. (At least that's the story as reported).

Urea for free ? Guess I won't hold my breath. If the urea idea does take off there will, doubtless, be suppliers in the open market. So its off to Wally Mart........"Got everything ? Let's see, burgers, beans, cornflakes, apples; oops, nearly forgot, gotta get a gallon of urea".

vcheng

..the requirement that emissions levels must be maintained for 150k miles. Warranty on emissions related components is federally mandated to 7 years 70k miles I think.

So, why shouldn't Mercedes provide the urea top ups for at least that long on their nickel?

ruking1

Indeed that was one of the reasons for my post.

tcp2

Urea...isn't that pee? Can't we just pee in the tank? Maybe you have to eat asparagus they day before to get it just right. :P

roland3

... Here's the deal. This is a proven revenue generator in Europe. They HAVE to get this infrastructure up and running in the States, before and or in case the Argonne patent makes it all obsolete. I say picket and vote with your feet and walk away from any establishment that has anything to do with urea until the Argonne patent is proven or not.

plekto

CNG filling devices are largely subsidized via rebates. They also are properly installed and checked, vented, and are low-pressure devices like a typical water heater. And just as safe. Nothing to "blow up".

There are currently several hundred CNG filling stations in the U.S. Local municipalities are required by law to allow you to use their pumps to fill up(though they often charge as much as a dollar extra. Even then, the typical price is less than 2.50 a "gallon"

http://www.cngprices.com/
The lowest near me in Los Angeles is $2.18. That's quite reasonable.

Des Plaines, Il - $1.29.(!)
Some places in the nation are amazingly cheap for the fuel(and at that cost, the garage device is a moot thing if you're in the Chicago area)

Oh, and you also get one of those car pool lane stickers. Even after they stop giving them out to hybrids, true alternative fuel vehicles still will get them. Nice bonus.

The Civic also is the EX version(not a stripped down thing) and comes with GPS/NAV built in with the CNG stations pre-programmed. Nice touch.

The only problem is on long distance trips. The maximum highway range for it is about 250 miles. It needs about double that to really shine as a long-distance option. But as a commuter car/daily driver, it's a win-win scenario. Low fuel cost, high reliability, gets the car pool lane pass, and truly does help save the planet(exhaust is cleaner than the surrounding air in Los Angeles!).\\

EDIT - my only gripe about it and why I like diesel better is because it's only one car currently and it's as pricey as a Prius.

ruking1

I think I read this on Edmunds.com, but the fueling option DOES cost a lot even after the rebates. The population of the nat gas MY Civic as I remember was less than 2,000. ..."The GX posts 24/36 numbers"... So if you are one of those 2,000 and have a commute @ 250 miles and LESS, then it might be a perfect storm for one of those few.

I am certainly one of those, for the VW TDI's. Driving it in a sea of gassers (98% passenger diesel fleet being gasser) is literally seamless. I have long since been drilled into putting ONLY D2 when fueling!!! I like not having to fuel for 700 miles between tank fulls.

altair4

LOL! I had to clean the coffee off my screen after reading your note!

ruking1

The price of a barrel of oil is @ app 67 per barrel, DOWN from highs of 147 !

Local store prices are at

RUG 3.39

PUG 3.82

D2 3.39

moparbad

(N H 2)2C O

ruking1

How about the lic plate: 2P or NOT

moparbad

Diesel less than gas

Mercedes' cleaner diesels impressive

ruking1

VWA gets most if not all particulate pollutive control devices from an upstate NY company.

roland3

... He was on Sixty Minutes last night. Wants to convert just about all large trucks to CNG. The CNG would come from the power generation industry that can be powered by his wind farm(s). I think this would achieve it's goals of energy independence and some enviro improvements. If it can be implemented. The Diesels are not that much of a problem as CNG has a high octane value and the electronics already exist; however the infrastructure is daunting. I also don't know if we should invest that much for an internal combustion system, and maybe use the "oil man's" wind farms to manufacture hydrogen.
..
... It might be better to have CARB and EPA stop bankrupting the States, with their unrealistic NOx regulations, and promote even more efficient engines using technologies just over the horizon, such as, Green Diesel Corp's injector and the Argonne patent to handle NOx.

ruking1

It is truly oxymoronic that even those that advocate NOT using oil and or using alternatives really provide nor advocate viable alternatives!! Indeed as viable alternatives are proposed they are in the vanguard of tying them up in the legal system to exercise their politcal and legal power and extract enormous fees and waste. A good example are the in the ocean wind farms on the New England coast kiboshed by non other than Senator Ted Kennedy. I also point to the since passed the CA 3% MANDATORY (plug in) electric car mandate. Even those that supported and proposed the legislation did not buy these products!!!

So now we know that all we need is a global financial crisis to lower the growth over 100% year over year! Do they really think crushing human populations "back to the stone age" will make a dent in that 100% per year? :lemon:

repoman1

If the democrats win they will pass legislation which will doom diesel vehicles both in the short term and in the long term. Consider the following:

Obama and Pelosi want to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by 80 percent by 2050, which is impossible, but we’ll lose a lot of freedoms and spend a lot of taxpayer money trying. They will almost certainly pass the bill making this vow, anyway.

Pelosi, Obama, Shumer, and virtually all democrats of note talk about windfall profits taxes on oil companies. They will pursue them. Other industries the left has traditionally disliked could be in for new scrutiny, regulation and profit grabs, including telecom, biotech and (almost certainly) drug makers.

ruking1

It is full court press on RUG to PUG consumption again: aka higher price per gal ! If they go back (and say we made a terrible mistake) on domestic drilling, even GREATER dependence on foreign oil. If Obama wins I bet he and Pelosi upgrade their OLD USAF government planes !! It is a long way from Hawaii and CA to Wash DC.

roland3

... Well, one thing Pickens said is that it might take a gov mandate to make the power companies accept the wind energy, at the level he is talking. The Diesel tucks will depend on the percentage of savings the CNG might provide.

gagrice

I am not sure you can get the power and range to make a semi practical with CNG. Maybe with a turbine engine to a generator for electric drive.

KCRam

Apples to apples comparison here in NJ...

NJ Transit runs MCI motorcoaches, powered by CNG and diesel. The CNGs get 400 miles per fill (compared to 1000 for the diesels), lose over 2000 pounds of payload due to the weight of the CNG system (both coach types have 49 seats, but the CNG system reduces the standee count from 19 to 4), and hate cold weather even more than the diesels. Any wonder there are only 76 CNG-powered MCIs in the fleet compared to 1491 diesels (all of which came after the CNGs, when they had the opportunity to choose either fuel)?

Translated to a tractor trailer, you're talking less payload (which equals less money), more frequent stops to refill (which equals less money), and more cold weather issues (which equals less money). Plus you're talking about having "CNG truck stops" at more than double the locations - all with an explosive fuel... diesel is combustible, but it won't explode from a match.

kcram - Pickups Host

ruking1

Whats a few more local explosions? Good fodder for slow news days!!

larsb

More "ha ha you can't have one !!":

58.8 MPG but not for YOU my friends

roland3

... Kcram, somewhere in the periphery of my mind your post was kicking around from about two months back. Sixty Minutes did mention that T. Pick's holding companies might make a huge profit if there was a much better market for CNG. @ eighty years old I don't think profit is his main motivator, but of course, he wants, very much, another success. The wind farms alone would be a great thing. The inevitable battery car market can use plenty of charging time, especially off-peak, and I am sure market forces can find use for surplus CNG. BTW, there are a heck of a bunch of seventy foot long, oversize load, wind turbine blades, going down the road in west Texas.

trucktricks

Since no one seems to know what the correct price for fuel is, this gas vesus diesel thing is a crapshoot. I see this morning that regular here in Indiana is 2.28 / gal. and diesel is 3.19. That is a 40% premium for the diesel. A conservative estimate for the superior efficiency of diesel over gas would be 30% (25% is the historical number , but lets assume that there have been some recent advances in the state of the art of diesel systems). This leaves you with a very bad business case, especially when the diesel engine is going to cost you $1500 to $4000 additional.

One approach would be to encourage people to buy more trucks and large SUVs to increase the demand for fuel which in turn will get the fuel prices higher so that the diesel makes more sense.

Beyond that, either flip a coin or buy whichever burns the fuel you think smells best. Personally, I like E85. It has that hint of Jack Daniels .............

ruking1

To me, "the holy grail" for plug in electric cars is a 400-500 mile range. One can make that the "primary" fuel source with either RUG to PUG to D2 as the secondary back up. I don't know if many folks grasp the ramifications of this, but I know for sure, the auto companies do!????

ruking1

..."VW shares nearly doubled in value "... ..."but still showed a gain of nearly 30 percent after a similar performance on Monday."...

link title

Funny how this is almost totally under the radar over here, when shares of Toyota, Honda, (Chyrsler, aka Cerberus link title) GM, FORD are lucky to even not lose.....

plekto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_BT-50

It's a *1 Ton* pickup. 21/30 Highway with 4x4. (23/33 2wd)
Just makes me want to smack my head against a wall in frustration. My current 4x4 gets a whopping 19mpg.

ruking1

Imagine what it would also do mpg wise with a 6 speed manual? The current system overwhelming favors getting 19 mpg when 33/34 mpg will do!!!!?? Further imagine what the mpg would be for a diesel adapted for the small block, 4, I5, V6, I6, V6, V8. (Silverado size)

plekto

But that Mazda is the size of a Silverado. It's a 1 ton truck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_BT-50

That's why I'm so upset. Mine's a 1/2 ton sized 4x4 and this is huge and gets better mpg. It uses engines lifted from Ford's trucks that it also sells overseas.

gagrice

We do not get anything to compare with this..

Mazda2 - Diesel
1.4 liter MZ-CD Diesel
Five-speed manual transmission
68 horsepower and approximitely 118 foot pounds (160 Nm) of torque
British Gallons: 53.3 Urban / 76.3 Extra Urban / 65.7 Combined MPG
US Gallons (equivalent): 44.4 City / 63.5 Highway / 54.7 Combined MPG
0-62: 15.5 seconds
Top speed: 101 MPH

We will not see this for the same reason we will not see a Honda diesel in the USA. EPA/CARB want to block diesel cars. Oil companies right now have a glut of gas reserves. Gas is the byproduct that is sold to the masses to fuel their cars. Distillates are the gold fuel needed for trains, planes, heavy equipment, trucks and ships. Plus heating oil that drives the price up each winter. You want a high mileage low cost vehicle VW is the only one that seems aggressive enough to jump through the hoops. VW will make money on diesel cars while the rest will scratch their heads.

PS
You will not see any PU truck built off shore unless the chicken tax is repealed. That was implemented in 1963 to protect the Big 3 truck companies.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2006/02/should-the-us-keep-the-chicken-tax- .html

ruking1

Might be my mistake here. I was thinking of the 1/2 ton Silverado (the contractor I used had a silverado, but on second thought it does come 1/2 ton 3/4 ton.)

larsb

Gary says, "EPA/CARB want to block diesel cars."

Complete, Utter FALSEHOOD.

Gary, I completely understanding being an old dog who can't learn new tricks. I get it. Most of us get there eventually. I know that. More power to you on that.

I get locking into an opinion and keeping it like the jaws of a pit bull. I have certain opinions too, which I like to keep.

But since I am a few years younger than you, I started looking into myself when middle age hit me. I convinced myself that I would keep an open mind, and keep all the options open for whatever direction and decisions formed my last half of life.

I decided to make sure I DID NOT adapt "old dog new trick syndrome."
I decided to make sure I kept trying new things, new experiences, and new opportunities to learn new things.

That's why I now have a much more favorable opinion of diesel cars than I had 4 years ago. You and ruking and others here have convinced me of the benefits of diesel technology. I HAVE CHANGED.

What I really DON'T GET is someone forming an opinion, and then directly in the face of evidence which proves that opinion wrong, STILL holding onto that opinion. A stance like that is completely unreasonable.

And that's where your statement falls - into the completely unreasonable category.

There are new clean diesel cars available for 2009. Cleaner diesel cars than ever. The reviews are gushing. The MPG performance is outstanding. Diesel prices are coming down with gas prices.

ALL those cars approved for sale in all 50 states.

And more are coming.

And the fueleconomy.gov website, run by the EPA, has a RED STAR right beside a statement which says "Diesel Vehicles newTax Incentives Biodiesel "

AND IT'S AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE - THE FIRST LINK IN THAT COLUMN !!!!

SEE the page here

And here is a Forbes story talking about 10 new diesel cars we will soon be driving:

IF the EPA is "blocking" diesel cars, I guess all these somehow slipped through the barricades

Gary, with all due respect to my elders: Your opinion of the EPA/CARB view on cars is outdated and incorrect. Learn something new and revise that opinion to make it closer to reality.

alltorque

Can't comment on EPA/CARB as we only get the EU channel here.

The little Mazda oil-burner is just one of a gazillion, (well, a lot of), cars/MPV's/SUV's etc that come with nice diesels here in Europe. Everyone does 'em; Audi, Alfa Romeo, BMW, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Citroen, Dodge, Fiat, Ford, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar, Jeep, Kia, Land Rover, Lexus, Mazda, Mercedes Benz, Mini, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Peugeot, Renault, Saab, SEAT, Skoda, Subaru, Suzuki, Toyota, Vauxhall/Opel, VW, Volvo..............think that covers it. Of course, as the EU car market slows down, the North American market might just start to look more attractive to some of these manufacturers. Particularly if there was some harmonisation of emissions and safety standards.

Hard to understand why the "Big 3" don't offer their existing diesels cars in the home country. :confuse:

larsb

alltorque says, "Hard to understand why the "Big 3" don't offer their existing diesels cars in the home country."

If you really want to story, let me know and I will post the long version and you will understand it fully.

ruking1

Local left coast NoCa prices:

RUG 3.09

PUG 3.29

D2 3.19

gagrice

Well you can scratch Acura/Honda from the list. They failed the emissions test and have canceled their diesels for America. I will believe the other low priced cars when I see them.

You have NOT because you cannot give evidence that the oil company lobbyist have not influenced the EPA & CARB on allowing diesels. It would take Congressional hearings and a whistle blower to expose that kind of shenanigans. We know for a fact that the head of CARB for years hated diesel cars and did everything in his power to block their sale in CA.

I will ask the same question as Roland. Why when the Feds have developed a very good system for diesel emissions are they not selling it to the automakers. You will have to show much harder convincing evidence that those at CARB are in favor of diesel cars. I just will not buy your unsubstantiated arguments.

plekto

Might be my mistake here. I was thinking of the 1/2 ton Silverado (the contractor I used had a silverado, but on second thought it does come 1/2 ton 3/4 ton.)
****
I meant the *size* of a Silverado(or F150). Not a little mini-truck but a full sized load some sheets of drywall in the rear and go work truck.

A 30mpg F150 would obliterate the rest of the market. (and the engine in that truck is a Ford engine). but do we get a TDI F150 in the US? Of course not. We get the maybe on a good day it gets 15mpg F150 with a V8 the size of Kentucky.

moparbad

Honda reevaluates diesel timing

Hope they still show up eventually. Better late than never.

larsb

First of all, your statement "Well you can scratch Acura/Honda from the list. They failed the emissions test and have canceled their diesels for America." is based on a rumor from an anonymous blogger.

When Honda announces it, it might then be true. And if true, then all it means is that Honda did not do the right engineering work to make the TSX clean enough. I don't want it here if it can't pass, and neither should you.

I don't have to prove EPA innocent. You have to prove them GUILTY. I have presented evidence that they DO NOT oppose diesels, and I can find more too.

September 24, 2008: EPA begins rolling out nearly $50 million in funding for clean diesel projects across the country, starting with $3.4 million in grants to help small trucking firms lower their fuel costs and carbon footprints through the use of innovative loans to purchase idling and emissions reduction technologies.

If they HATE diesel so much, why spend money trying to clean it up? That $50 million would have gone a LONG WAY in BLOCKING diesel cars, huh?

Here is one of your personal pet peeves, Gary. The EPA is involved in an effort to reduce the emissions of oceangoing vessels:

Cleaning up Cargo Ship exhaust

You have presented only your biased opinion, formed YEARS ago. An opinion that MIGHT have been true in the PAST, but as a reasonable person ( you are one, right? ) you can't just take an opinion and just cement it into your brain in the face of NEW developments which might change the playing field.

You remind me of those prosecutors on some of those A&E true-crime programs who hold onto the belief that someone was guilty even after new evidence comes to light and they are exonerated. What a joke.

I have changed my opinion many times on many issues in the last 4 years because I CONTINUALLY REVIEW NEW INFORMATION. I don't just grab onto an opinion and take it to my grave.

Name me one thing you have re-evaluated lately which has caused you to change an opinion you had?

Think about it Gary. Look outside yourself and then turn around and look inward and try to find out if you are truly not able to re-evaluate an opinion. It does not look like to me that you have that capacity.

moparbad

Not a little mini-truck but a full sized load some sheets of drywall in the rear and go work truck.

Navara Utility

Nissan already offers a capable "go to work" truck that obtains 30 mpg. It is not full size, though full size is not needed for a work truck for majority of hauling needs.
It would not be up to full size towing, drywall and other typical hauling is piece of cake.

Not offered in the U.S........Who would buy it?

ruking1

So indeed we are talking about the same animal. I know as well as you the F150/F1500 comes from literally from mild to WILD and has/have many options to include many engines and transmissions. It is probably one of the few (remaining) platforms that can pretty much be customized to the customer!!! What a concept! If any there are such things as a killer applications, it would be diesel engines for these platforms !!!! This is an absolute no brainer in that GM FORD Chysler already has producted TDI's for the 2/3 series platform. Cummins Diesel for example makes one of the best diesels in the world. For certain the USA!

So for example getting back to that contractor he was good with towing his trailer "loaded tool box" with a 6 cylinder. When not towing (while he doesnt keep real mpg records for obvious reasons) he swagged mid 20's on the highway. Again imagine a TDI !!!!

moparbad

CARB and EPA went after the diesel vehicles with the cleanest emissions and kept changing the emissions rules while doing nothing about the sulfur in the fuel and never gave the manufacturers a chance to meet the standards in a fair amount of time and at a reasonable cost.
At the same time, CARB and EPA ignored the worst contributors to emissions which is the trains, ships, off road equipment and commercial trucking.
Sure, CARB and EPA are now (finally) targeting other sources of diesel emissions other than passenger vehicles (and I'm glad they are) however the damage is done to the passenger vehicle diesel market.
If you believe that funding emissions projects now for non-passenger vehicles logically leads to the conclusion that CARB and EPA are Pro-Diesel, that is fine, I don't share your opinion.

Ever changing and different than every other country in the world emissions regulations were and are extremely effective to prevent diesel from being a choice offered to U.S. consumers.

Japan and other nations have demonstrated how effective bureaucratic regulation can be to stifle imports and protect markets. Whether intentional or simply due to idiocy, CARB and EPA killed passenger vehicle diesels.

ruking1

Larsb is totally ignoring the 33% decrease/LOSS in the passenger vehicle fleet (DIESEL) down from almost 3% to 2%. They should do that kind of cleaning for gassers. :lemon: In addition, since diesels have to meet STRICT emissions controls. Gassers should be made to meet diesel's MPG's. So let me be clear. IF a F150 turbo diesel gets 25-30 mpg., then gasser F150's (currently some say max 19 mpg) should do the same. :shades:

roland3

... Gary & Larsb, there is some possibility in my mind that somehow the oil companies lobbied the existing shortage of Diesel cars into being; however here is what I think happened. Because CARB and EPA actually made a difference, especially in southern California, in the Seventies, these agencies have been praised, adored and glorified, and have become too powerful in the auto industry.
..
... Of course you have to wonder about their power concerning the electrical power industry and the problem in the ports.
..
... Personally I think the NOx regs are too strict and there is no one awake at the helm ( CARB & EPA) with any apparent knowledge of how much the EGR systems are costing this country both in dollars (repairs and wasted fuel) and in air quality because EGR is a direct conflict of the laws of physics and petrochemistry and the many malfunctioning (or disconnected) units that are fouling more air than the working units are helping.

avalon02wh

The Honda Diesels "are still estimated to cost about 500,000 yen ($5,100) more than gasoline engine cars even after sharp price falls of platinum and other precious metals used as catalysts, the paper said..."

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUST19579520081029

Looks like the Jetta TDI is going to be the only game in town for another year or two or....

gagrice

I have changed my opinion many times on many issues in the last 4 years because I CONTINUALLY REVIEW NEW INFORMATION. I don't just grab onto an opinion and take it to my grave.

If you do diligent research before coming to a conclusion you are less apt to change your opinion. I have been saying our government is corrupt beyond all chance of repair for 15 years. Now they have proven that I was right. For some reason you believe the EPA because of their cause are above reproach. The EPA and CARB are just as corrupt and subject to scrutiny as any other government agency. I have wanted a small diesel PU for over 10 years. I have learned many of the reasons I cannot have one in this country. All of the reasons are political.

easym1

Can you imagine loosening the rules for diesels? This means more diesel cars for North America, lesser demand for fuel and lesser tax to collect by governments. Just imagine how upset the Texas oil magnate and the Canadian oil sands producer will be. But I bet you that they have friends in the higher part of governments. Can you imagine the games they play? I won't be surprise if gagrice is right. There's just a lot of things going on in the backdoor.