This is a tad confusing. Not too long ago Honda went from concept to market for a diesel engine cTDI and transmission/s in not only the shortest time, but with a clean sheet. By all reports it is/remains one of the more sophisticated diesel designs.(tuneable/scale able LOW emissions being one of the HIGHEST priorities)
... It appears very hard to outdo the "World, Bosch, Common Rail" engine template. I guess Honda might be using Nippon Denso injection. That's one of the reasons that I find Green Diesel Corp's injection so amazing.
I get a magazine devoted to diesel and I find that there are Bosch CP3 pumps out there that will deliver 40,000 PSI (2666 Bar) reliably over the long term including the one on my Jeep Liberty CRD. In fact, V.M. Motori, the manufacturer of the engine in my Jeep has a version of my engine with piezo injection.
I understand the new 2009 VW Jetta TDI uses one of the newest Bosch CR systems. By all anecdotal reports, there have been no issues or problems.
Naturally a lot of diesel types look to longer time/milegage frames. Since the current Honda diesels do not hit the US market, finding information is a tad on the arcane side from the normal information channels.
Indeed. However if I understand the article, the ENGINE passed the tests. Done deal! It really totally ignores the recent publicized "automatic transmission failure" issue bru ha ha.
My take is a combination of one respondents take:
"Diesels are expensive, especially four valve, overhead cam, high pressure, direct injection, turbo inter cooler, diesels with a closed loop microcomputer control, cat converter and particulate filter. I think what you are seeing here is the peak of the ICEs. It is becoming more costly to continue to invent complicated tweaking for the ICE than it is to improve the battery and electric drive lines for BEVs. Once BEVs can attain a 70 mph speed for a 350 mile range and be recharged in 10 to 20 minutes, there will be little need for the ICE except for heavy hauling range extensions. "
Actually hybrids and or electrical can cost far more, but IF the plug in electrical can have a range of say 300-500 miles (30 min recharge) a secondary or back up diesel engine would make a GREAT combination !!! You basically can run the diesel engine when you want/have to.
About the only thing that Edmunds liked about this SUV was the improved mileage...and that was only 18/24.
They did not like the transmission at all. Very sluggish with a big lag. Steering wheel like a bus, no feedback, and very sloppy. Suspension too soft with huge body roll. Firmer setting on the air suspension just made it jiggly and did not improve body roll. Very disappointing.
That was what a friend of mine said about her gasser MB ML320 and she is not car techie oriented !! Evidently the TDI didn't improve the platform at all. She would NOT get another! She likes the Acura MDX as long as the hubbie is driving, as it seems a tad too big to her. So far the only one to have done a good diesel/automatic transmission has been MB BUT on the E320/350 (4 door sedan)
... Ruking, amazing, I was going to start a post with almost the same theory as the respondent. The heading would have been, "It's the Same as Nature". Content: whether it's five years or fifty, the Diesel will become obsolete. Maybe it will be economic forces or legislative encumbrance or a new species altogether, the engine will be like buffalo some day. Rudolf's spawn might run out of grazing fodder (crude oil) also.
Well I hope to live to see running the car on water. Be that as it may, an electrical/D2 alternative by ANY metric, meets the PRACTICAL definition of ALTERNATIVE FUEL !!!! ???????
But essentially I believe D2 (and the variants: bio diesel, etc.,) will be viable for at least the next generarion (30-40 years) . In the scheme of things, this time frame can be like almost FOREVER! Till then, D2 keeps the 20-40% fuel advantage (other things also) over RUG to PUG.
quote- Most of the world relies on diesel rather than gasoline for transportation fuel and heating demand. According to the International Energy Agency (IEA) the world consumed just 0.75 gallons of gasoline for every gallon of diesel in 2005, and the refinery system was configured to produce the two fuels in roughly the same proportion (https://customers.reuters.com/d/graphic s/FL_CNSP1208.gif).
The U.S. petroleum economy is highly unusual in that it is tilted towards consumption and production of gasoline. The United States consumes almost two gallons of gasoline (1.97) for every gallon of diesel; the European Union consumes only 0.40 gallons and China consumes 0.48 gallons.
A lot of that scenario also makes NO practical sense. 1. we have been and will continue to artifically creating an over demand for RUG to PUG (98% of the passenger vehicle fleet uses RUG/PUG) 2. an under demand is created for D2. 3. we of course EXPORT D2 and at considerable taxpayer expense OVERSEAS !!!! ???? This is literal and utter insanity.
As per EIA.gov figures 46% (of a barrel of oil 42 gals) are RUG to PUG (19.3 gals) and 23.4% is D2 (9.83 gals). link title
So if you just let the car population be 23% diesel, you will STRUCTURALLY decrease RUG to PUG demand, ie import almost exponentially less barrels of oil.
Simultaneously we need to let engines that are DESIGNED to burn bio diesel that will use the waste products generated by on going domestic manufacturing processes. Indeed algae shows enormous promise in generating both bio diesel and food and who knows what else. Algae also eats C02 and a by product is OXYGEN !!!!!
So much for diesel cars making big inroads in America.
There is also a one-year delay in a Valero hydrocracker project at Port Arthur, Texas. The hydrocracker would have made additional distillate/diesel. Add in all the other delays in refinery expansions and one can assume that the RUG/PUG to diesel spread will stay.
As I said before when you post AAA figures I wish I could buy RUG to PUG and D2 at AAA prices especially when it is cheaper than what I can get locally.
So local prices snap shot
D2 $2.39
RUG $1.71 PUG $1.99
When RUG to PUG users can somehow mitigate the 20-40% advantage D2 has, then RUG to PUG will be the deal !!! It is firmly entrenched that burning more IS better for the environment than burning less !!!! You are just spouting the party line. Till that time, I am ok with you ignoring the math.
So given the differences, diesel burners remain in THE perfect storm. Mine is at 111,000 miles and rolling along.
Indeed there is a much larger sizeable population (than diesel- diesel cars being less than 2%) of PUG users that pay more per mile driven. This really is almost totally ignored.
Honda's short sightedness will be VW's gain in market share. As a percentage diesel is much higher today than it was 6 months ago. Diesel has stayed ahead of RUG from 5% to 27% here is San Diego. The price difference now being the highest. So California is still the biggest market for cars and the price of diesel is a factor. Being 60 cents more seems a lot when gas is selling for $1.69 per gallon. It is nothing when gas is $4.59 and diesel is $5, as was the case this summer. All car sales are down. VW is doing better than most. Jetta TDI sales accounted for 17% of the total cars sold. There is nothing like being able to drive 700+ miles on a tank of fuel and pick your stations. I start getting nervous in my Sequoia when I hit 350 miles.
Sadly the BMW X5 seems to be slow getting to the USA. Dealer keeps calling for me to put in my order. I told him I wanted to test drive the vehicle before I even think about it much harder. Looks like January before they show up in the showrooms. The diesels are the only Mercedes that are selling well according to the sales man that calls me. Could be sales pitch also. I want at least one of each gas and diesel. Then I am covered when they start rationing gas. This cheap gas will not last forever. Then you will wish you had that diesel to get decent mileage on $4 plus fuel.
I was surprised when I read a good while back, that VW is actually gunning to be the #1 auto maker. Even as the US government will bail out the big three, the big three will have a hard time keeping a float let alone keep pace with VW, Going toe to toe with them? LOL !! . I am sure VW is working toward the VW dealers being the magnet centers just as the local Toyota dealer/s is/are for easily a 50 mile radius. The municipality has even identified them (local magnet Toyota dealer) as one of the major policy players: 1. economics 2. probably politics.
I have been very surprised at the short sighted view of diesel in the USA. Biodiesel is the ONLY practical alternative to fossil fuel on the horizon. Ethanol at its very best from waste is a very inefficient fuel. I don't want to look for a station carrying ethanol every 200 miles on a trip cross country. Biodiesel gives the same great mileage of fossil diesel. Probably the reason it does not get a lot of research money from the Feds. I like the idea of an EV. I don't see it as a practical alternative for a family vehicle. Same with hydrogen. They are probably beyond our lifetime. So a diesel car that can run on biodiesel today is to me the most practical solution.
By the end of this decade I think VW will be number 2 behind Toyota. China could very well catapult VW to number one in the next decade. GM will be lucky to survive and be in the top 5.
It is short sighted to the EXTREME degree! So I would agree !!
The fact they do not allow bio diesel engineering specifications(to be able to come to market with bio diesel CARS) is further evidence of bio diesel not being a policy player in alternative fuels. It can be almost TOTALLY domestic to being world wide fungible !!!!!!
I have seen E85 EPA truck/suv ratings and they consume 25% MORE than EVEN the so called oxygenated RUG to PUG. Using MORE to "use LESS" is NOT a good definition of conservation!!??? It also costs the same or more per gal, so the cost per mile driven is ever higher.
Longer term my so called dual fuel take would be EV (250 to 500 mile range with 2 hour recharge time) with a bio diesel secondary. The range would be from 950 to 1200 miles !!! SAVE and process that bacon grease and put solar arrays on your roofs and car roofs!!? ! That secondary alternative fuel would create an outlet demand for alternative fuel from algae and ongoing industrial/food processes.
Indeed it is the cost per mile driven. Glad you agree with me.
I can see you are in the burning more is better for the environment camp !!! You have made that case very loud and very clear. 38 mpg gasser is better than 50 mpg diesel !!! The defacto 22 mpg also says so with the current standards @ 27 mpg. Works for me! I am hedged either way or both ways as the prices always fluctuated especially during the winter. What do you care as you don't drive a diesel anyway!?
Right now the "yearly" cost difference between rug 38 mpg and D2 is app 33 dollars per yr or 2.75 per month. I also know you probably don't get 38 mpg so that is probably erased, to you are spending more. In truth I hope RUG goes to .74 cents per gal, don't you? But then it was a very short time ago above 4 per gal. Diesel was a good percentage cheaper per mile driven.
The Math: 41 to 54% always beats 20 to 40%. It is all about the money.
Again your time frame is so short. It was not that long ago that Diesel was cheaper than gas most of the year. And the difference where you are is extreme. Most vehicles that have both gas and diesel options are getting about 40% better mileage highway. If you are a city only driver maybe a hybrid would be a better choice.
In San Diego the percentage of diesel over Gas is the highest it has been as long as I can remember. Gas will go up. The chances of diesel going up at the same percentage is highly unlikely. There is a very large population here that has access to diesel at $2.19 per gallon. While gas is as cheap as $1.59 per gallon. That is 28% higher. Still a better deal for most diesel drivers in So CA. When oil hit its peak diesel was only about 3% higher here than gas. So no time in my memory would a gas vehicle be preferable to a diesel from a mileage standpoint. And for driving, the diesel is head and shoulders above all the gas vehicles I have driven.
Your preference for gas is your prerogative. I respect that. It just does not make good sense to me when the diesel option is available. That being the main obstacle to owning a diesel. I cannot see myself ever buying another new gas vehicle. That is my preference after owning both.
Indeed, I was in the local Toyota dealership LQQKING, while I was waiting for the shuttle home. Since I have been dealing with the service manager for 22 some odd years, he never hesitates to let me take home whatever demo overnight. I happened to notice the 2009 Prius was priced out at app $29,000 with an EPA of 48 city 45 highway. All the small cars (Yaris, Scion, XB, Corolla, etc,) had strangely a lot less EPA mileage, that what I would think anyway.
I have been researching the 2009 TDI @ app $22,000, and www.tdiclub information indicates no issues getting 45 mpg with many easily getting 48-50. So 29k-22k= $7,000 in diesel fuel. I am sure a gasser user can run the break even with this information.
I was almost reluctant to ask how the (gasser) 18 mpg, 2009 Toyota Landcruisers @ $73,000 were selling
The site is as near as I can figure a 12 acre lot and the lot was PACKED with inventory. Now I don't know if that was a good thing.... or not!?
"Honda's short sightedness will be VW's gain in market share. As a percentage diesel is much higher today than it was 6 months ago."
Honda is one of the most successful car companies in the world. Their engines are often second to none, but you seem to think they are making a mistake. My bet is with Honda.
It would be a better bet with US market Honda cTDI's. :shades: I'd love to get upwards of 56 mpg in a Honda Civic in a daily commute, where we get a pretty stellar 38-42 in a gasser.
Honda has done well in the USA for one good reason. Americans have a 0-60 MPH mentality. Honda did not do well in the EU until they adopted diesel engines. VW is far and away bigger than Honda world wide. Because of the exchange rate they have not penetrated our market well since the 1980s. They have not taken the hit here in the USA that Honda has. My bet is with VW on the diesels. This will be an interesting time in the US auto industry. I am assuming that VW is on track with their new plant in TN.
I am not as schooled in the issue/s, but it seems to me from what I have read/researched, the new VW plant in TN, while hopefully benefitting the USA also can be a WORLD WIDE manufacturing plant. It is really too bad WE have poisoned OUR own manufacturing capability and have only begun to realize that may have been terribly short sighted.
So say the US diesel market is only mildly successful. Specific to general world wide diesel markets can be manufactured FOR at the same (TN) plant. All of a sudden VW is part of the US balance of export trade, etc, etc.
At the same time, we are bailing out the big three who can't close domestic plants FAST enough !!! ???. UAW presidents' answer to the 77 dollar per hour vs 33 dollar per hour WAGES disparity?.... 77 dollars!! and.... BAILOUT !!!!! Even the biggie three have CEO'd up and will take a buck a year in salary. !!!! What are they now pissed off because those scofflaws won't take .50 cents per year? And we wonder why things have gotten/are/will continue to be.... bas ack wards. :sick: :lemon:
For so called following the rules and being "successful" I'd feel screwed if I were Honda, Toyota, VW, Nissan, etc (anybody pipe in here with auto plants I have missed)
I am just waiting for the 30-50k rebate AND tax credit to buy a twin turbo diesel Corvette !!!
D2 per mile driven like model is 18.6% cheaper than RUG, 27% cheaper than PUG.
I am sure the anti D2 folks can do the math when matrix of D2, RUG,PUG is up around $4.00 per gal.
A short term goal: (30-40 years= 1 generation) You will know the system will be serious about cutting consumption when D2 is cheaper per gal than RUG to PUG. Dead serious will be when the population of alternative fuel passenger, (of which D2 is a subset) vehicle population are exponentially higher. Till then they will camouflage the true cost. (per mile driven)
EV vehicles at current electrical rates will exponentially crash the cost per mile driven for fuel !!!!!
I do not know if there are any official figures for the length of a generation "(30-40 years= 1 generation)", but I thought it was more like 18-25 years, when many have their kids...
And in the inner city, where girls get pregnant at 15, two generations of welfare are about 30 years, when the 30 year old is a grandmother...
That might give a different time frame for diesel fuel...
The type of fuel is not really that important to me. I was originally making a few observations. The cost is an issue and until diesel prices get close to RUG/PUG on a nation wide basis diesel car sales will be limited. You could say that the diesel invasion has been postponed due to bad weather.
You said :"Most vehicles that have both gas and diesel options are getting about 40% better mileage highway." Is that really true? The ML320 gets 20% better highway mpg vs. the ML350. The E320 is 25% better than the E350.
The Jetta diesel is 38% better, but then the gas version only gets 29 mpg highway on premium while a Malibu with the 4 gets 33 mpg highway on regular. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/diesel.shtml
Fuel is a moving target. I am paying $1.59 for gas today and $4.59 a few short weeks ago. To base a purchase on the cost of fuel I believe is silly. You are going to keep a vehicle for 3-5-7 or15 years. The price difference could change many times in the time you own the vehicle.
As far as different cars. In the Mercedes you would want to compare the E320 CDI to the V8 model to get the closest driving experience. Even the very poor EPA gives the diesel version a combined 35% increase in mileage. In real life driver's report on average getting 45% better with the diesel over the gas "E" car. That would be Premium required on the gasser. The ML and GL are very similar comparisons.
Those reporting mileage on the 2009 Jetta TDI are doing 40% better than the gas counterpart. And if you drive a few hundred miles in the diesel version you will understand why so many would pay more per gallon for the diesel.
I am personally hoping that diesel remains higher at least until I get a chance to try the new X5 diesel and make my choice between my 3 diesel choices. Unless someone else brings a diesel SUV into the mix. My goal is a full size SUV that gets near 30 MPG out on the highway. I know one man with a GL320 CDI that consistently gets 28 MPG on the highway. Never under 20 just short city trips. That beats the heck out of my 17 MPG on the highway with the Sequoia.
Ford Fusion (gasser) hybrid would still use RUG !!! A diesel hybrid would get anywhere from 20-40% better fuel mileage!! Also diesel is at least a pathway to alternative fuels. I would say 43 mpg is good. It is way better than the 27 mph standards now and the defacto 22 mpg. Edmunds.com does NOT list a price or availability for a Fusion hybrid, so a strawman in the current real world. I am a tad confused also for it lists Fusion as getting 18/26 mpg.
The 2001 Z06 Corvette gets 26 mpg and at xxx mph !!! Yet the Fusion is an economy car!?? OK !!?? I will just drive it slower.
I get 38-42 in a Honda Civic. While I don't know what a Ford Fusion hybrid compared to the Ford Fusion would compare, the price difference for the Civic hybrid at the time was $7,400 MORE than Civic. For giggles, how long would it take either or both to B/E?
For most... NOT !! Around here driving a PPB is akin to... not wanting to live too much longer.... Best is to get hit by a UPS or Fed EX truck, they at least have insurance. However falling and risking various levels of paralysis might be a fate worse.....
Actually the city, county, state and fed might be good alternates. There was a recent case where a county worker (sheriff deputy in a marked sheriff patrol car) wiped out part of a crew of bike fanantics out for their morning ride. Your local personal injury lawyer can clue you if they pay well. :lemon:
Hey, I didn't expect to find you here...I really enjoy your union experiences in the UAW topic...kinda adds some common sense to the usualy union rah-rah that will be the death of the automakers...
I am first and foremost a fan of diesel vehicles. That is what brought me to Edmund's over 10 years ago. I am not anti Union, as I am living a very decent retirement as a result of 37 years in a Union. We just ran our Union with a lot more responsibility to the company that was paying the bills. Unlike the UAW.
If GM would offer a decent sized diesel in their Tahoe or Trailblazer sized vehicles, I would give them another shot at my wallet.
A hybrid, an expensive and a complex proposition. Still uses a one way fuel, gasoline. The drive train is messy and complex and battery technology is still a problem (limited life, expensive to replace).
You can get the same FE with a diesel in the city with an auto stop system (engine shuts down at a stop light or after several seconds of idling). That saves fuel right there and is much less complex than a hybrid system. Most people commute on the highway, an area where hybrids lose big time to diesel.
As to PPB, I would love to use one, but in metro D.C. riding one is suicide.
At the risk of belaboring a point to death (when has that stopped me before?), if the buying public has deserted the Big 3 because of doors that mount crooked, hoods that won't close, and extra screws or missing bolts, blame the union...if they deserted because the design is boring, blame management...
I would think that many people would intentionally buy a boring car but will avoid a car that looks like it was slapped together by duct tape...
While the average person probably does not know what the UAW is, they certainly know if the car squeaks, rattles, and closes like a tin can...they may not know "UAW", but they know a POS when they see one, and THAT, IMO, goes to the union labor making the car...
As far as making a diesel, the automakers ought to notice the improved mpg from them, stretching our limited petroleum resources even further, while developing fuel cells and other means...hybrid cars will be a problem when it is time to buy a new battery and dispose of the old one...the enviros will go bonkers when they see all those batteries in landfills...be careful what you wish for, you might get it...
I rent domestic cars (well, let's call them "Big 3" cars, since I don't know where they were actually built) when I travel for work. Bearing in mind that none of them have more than 15,000 miles on them, most of them have been built reasonably well. No rattles to speak of, nothing seemingly falling off. So based on your comments, I guess I can't blame the UAW for that.
Design-wise - jeez, some of these vehicles have questionable esthetics, at least to my eye. The interiors lack some ergonomic details. Why is the radio so far away? Why is the onboard computer information button so far away? Why won't the outside mirrors adjust enough outward so I don't have any blindspots? Why are those mirrors so small and poorly shaped? So, I guess the reason I haven't owned a "Big 3" car in over 20 years falls on the management.
So tell me again what they're going to do with the taxpayer money to fix the design issues that I perceive as deal-breakers for me?
"Complication" can no longer be considered a negative criticism.
How about COMPLEXITY decreases longevity further perpetuating the throwaway mentality of our consumerism. The more to go wrong the higher the cost of maintenance after the warranty. The more likely a person will dump it for a new car. Maybe good for the economy, bad for the environment.
... A picture is worth a thousand words. In one of the links Winter provided there is an image of a multiple pulse injection. I never doubted the value of high pressure and many fuel pulses but this explains the why. Many small pulses of fuel never reach the boundary layer and or the cylinder walls or head. This causes them to ignite in the much better areas of the combustion chamber/process. Also and maybe more importantly, raw fuel in cold areas (relatively), causes SOOT. .. ... I really hope these new systems by Bosch, Delphi and Green Diesel Corp and ???, will eliminate the need for particulate traps, that I am close to calling a failure.
Complicated drive systems with power splitting devices (read Prius and others) are a small nightmare. There is no simplicity here. Too many moving parts, too much software and too much computer control to make it work properly which it does not do under some conditions.
Blue Tec does take extra hardware and some extra software. Six pages for the basics is not so bad. I wonder how many pages cover the basics for a hybrid like the Prius or others like it. The computer used to control Blue Tec is not as messy as you make it out to be.
Comments
http://www.vmmotori.it/en/01/00/01/dettaglio.jsp?id=56
It uses the same Bosch CP3 pump at 1600 Bar but delivers 60 more Newton-Meters ( 44.25 lb-ft) of torque over the version I have.
Naturally a lot of diesel types look to longer time/milegage frames. Since the current Honda diesels do not hit the US market, finding information is a tad on the arcane side from the normal information channels.
Honda i-DTEC
My take is a combination of one respondents take:
"Diesels are expensive, especially four valve, overhead cam, high pressure, direct injection, turbo inter cooler, diesels with a closed loop microcomputer control, cat converter and particulate filter. I think what you are seeing here is the peak of the ICEs. It is becoming more costly to continue to invent complicated tweaking for the ICE than it is to improve the battery and electric drive lines for BEVs. Once BEVs can attain a 70 mph speed for a 350 mile range and be recharged in 10 to 20 minutes, there will be little need for the ICE except for heavy hauling range extensions. "
Actually hybrids and or electrical can cost far more, but IF the plug in electrical can have a range of say 300-500 miles (30 min recharge) a secondary or back up diesel engine would make a GREAT combination !!! You basically can run the diesel engine when you want/have to.
They did not like the transmission at all. Very sluggish with a big lag. Steering wheel like a bus, no feedback, and very sloppy. Suspension too soft with huge body roll. Firmer setting on the air suspension just made it jiggly and did not improve body roll. Very disappointing.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
But essentially I believe D2 (and the variants: bio diesel, etc.,) will be viable for at least the next generarion (30-40 years) . In the scheme of things, this time frame can be like almost FOREVER! Till then, D2 keeps the 20-40% fuel advantage (other things also) over RUG to PUG.
Most of the world relies on diesel rather than gasoline for transportation fuel and heating demand. According to the International Energy Agency (IEA) the world consumed just 0.75 gallons of gasoline for every gallon of diesel in 2005, and the refinery system was configured to produce the two fuels in roughly the same proportion (https://customers.reuters.com/d/graphic s/FL_CNSP1208.gif).
The U.S. petroleum economy is highly unusual in that it is tilted towards consumption and production of gasoline. The United States consumes almost two gallons of gasoline (1.97) for every gallon of diesel; the European Union consumes only 0.40 gallons and China consumes 0.48 gallons.
Until recently, that led to a mutually beneficial trade, with the United States exporting surplus diesel, while Europe and China exported surplus gasoline (https://customers.reuters.com/d/graphic s/REFINEPRDS1208.htm). -end
Bleak Outlook for US Refiners
As per EIA.gov figures 46% (of a barrel of oil 42 gals) are RUG to PUG (19.3 gals) and 23.4% is D2 (9.83 gals). link title
So if you just let the car population be 23% diesel, you will STRUCTURALLY decrease RUG to PUG demand, ie import almost exponentially less barrels of oil.
Simultaneously we need to let engines that are DESIGNED to burn bio diesel that will use the waste products generated by on going domestic manufacturing processes. Indeed algae shows enormous promise in generating both bio diesel and food and who knows what else. Algae also eats C02 and a by product is OXYGEN !!!!!
You do realize that much of the exports are just oil coming in from Mexico that gets refined and shipped back to Mexico, right???
By now I suspect everyone has seen the following:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-12-07-honda-diesel_N.htm
So much for diesel cars making big inroads in America.
There is also a one-year delay in a Valero hydrocracker project at Port Arthur, Texas. The hydrocracker would have made additional distillate/diesel. Add in all the other delays in refinery expansions and one can assume that the RUG/PUG to diesel spread will stay.
AAA has RUG $1.698 - 54% cheaper
PUG $1.868 - 41% cheaper
Diesel $2.629
So local prices snap shot
D2 $2.39
RUG $1.71
PUG $1.99
When RUG to PUG users can somehow mitigate the 20-40% advantage D2 has, then RUG to PUG will be the deal !!! It is firmly entrenched that burning more IS better for the environment than burning less !!!! You are just spouting the party line. Till that time, I am ok with you ignoring the math.
So given the differences, diesel burners remain in THE perfect storm. Mine is at 111,000 miles and rolling along.
Indeed there is a much larger sizeable population (than diesel- diesel cars being less than 2%) of PUG users that pay more per mile driven. This really is almost totally ignored.
Sadly the BMW X5 seems to be slow getting to the USA. Dealer keeps calling for me to put in my order. I told him I wanted to test drive the vehicle before I even think about it much harder. Looks like January before they show up in the showrooms. The diesels are the only Mercedes that are selling well according to the sales man that calls me. Could be sales pitch also. I want at least one of each gas and diesel. Then I am covered when they start rationing gas. This cheap gas will not last forever. Then you will wish you had that diesel to get decent mileage on $4 plus fuel.
The fact they do not allow bio diesel engineering specifications(to be able to come to market with bio diesel CARS) is further evidence of bio diesel not being a policy player in alternative fuels. It can be almost TOTALLY domestic to being world wide fungible !!!!!!
I have seen E85 EPA truck/suv ratings and they consume 25% MORE than EVEN the so called oxygenated RUG to PUG. Using MORE to "use LESS" is NOT a good definition of conservation!!??? It also costs the same or more per gal, so the cost per mile driven is ever higher.
Longer term my so called dual fuel take would be EV (250 to 500 mile range with 2 hour recharge time) with a bio diesel secondary. The range would be from 950 to 1200 miles !!! SAVE and process that bacon grease and put solar arrays on your roofs and car roofs!!? ! That secondary alternative fuel would create an outlet demand for alternative fuel from algae and ongoing industrial/food processes.
RUG is the real deal for now. RUG is at $1.759 while diesel is $2.864 here.
The Math: 41 to 54% always beats 20 to 40%. It is all about the money. :shades:
I can see you are in the burning more is better for the environment camp !!! You have made that case very loud and very clear. 38 mpg gasser is better than 50 mpg diesel !!!
The defacto 22 mpg also says so with the current standards @ 27 mpg. Works for me! I am hedged either way or both ways as the prices always fluctuated especially during the winter. What do you care as you don't drive a diesel anyway!?
Again your time frame is so short. It was not that long ago that Diesel was cheaper than gas most of the year. And the difference where you are is extreme. Most vehicles that have both gas and diesel options are getting about 40% better mileage highway. If you are a city only driver maybe a hybrid would be a better choice.
In San Diego the percentage of diesel over Gas is the highest it has been as long as I can remember. Gas will go up. The chances of diesel going up at the same percentage is highly unlikely. There is a very large population here that has access to diesel at $2.19 per gallon. While gas is as cheap as $1.59 per gallon. That is 28% higher. Still a better deal for most diesel drivers in So CA. When oil hit its peak diesel was only about 3% higher here than gas. So no time in my memory would a gas vehicle be preferable to a diesel from a mileage standpoint. And for driving, the diesel is head and shoulders above all the gas vehicles I have driven.
Your preference for gas is your prerogative. I respect that. It just does not make good sense to me when the diesel option is available. That being the main obstacle to owning a diesel. I cannot see myself ever buying another new gas vehicle. That is my preference after owning both.
I have been researching the 2009 TDI @ app $22,000, and www.tdiclub information indicates no issues getting 45 mpg with many easily getting 48-50. So 29k-22k= $7,000 in diesel fuel. I am sure a gasser user can run the break even with this information.
I was almost reluctant to ask how the (gasser) 18 mpg, 2009 Toyota Landcruisers @ $73,000 were selling
The site is as near as I can figure a 12 acre lot and the lot was PACKED with inventory. Now I don't know if that was a good thing.... or not!?
Honda is one of the most successful car companies in the world. Their engines are often second to none, but you seem to think they are making a mistake. My bet is with Honda.
It would be a better bet with US market Honda cTDI's. :shades: I'd love to get upwards of 56 mpg in a Honda Civic in a daily commute, where we get a pretty stellar 38-42 in a gasser.
Honda has done well in the USA for one good reason. Americans have a 0-60 MPH mentality. Honda did not do well in the EU until they adopted diesel engines. VW is far and away bigger than Honda world wide. Because of the exchange rate they have not penetrated our market well since the 1980s. They have not taken the hit here in the USA that Honda has. My bet is with VW on the diesels. This will be an interesting time in the US auto industry. I am assuming that VW is on track with their new plant in TN.
So say the US diesel market is only mildly successful. Specific to general world wide diesel markets can be manufactured FOR at the same (TN) plant. All of a sudden VW is part of the US balance of export trade, etc, etc.
At the same time, we are bailing out the big three who can't close domestic plants FAST enough !!! ???. UAW presidents' answer to the 77 dollar per hour vs 33 dollar per hour WAGES disparity?.... 77 dollars!! and.... BAILOUT !!!!! Even the biggie three have CEO'd up and will take a buck a year in salary. !!!! What are they now pissed off because those scofflaws won't take .50 cents per year? And we wonder why things have gotten/are/will continue to be.... bas ack wards. :sick: :lemon:
For so called following the rules and being "successful" I'd feel screwed if I were Honda, Toyota, VW, Nissan, etc (anybody pipe in here with auto plants I have missed)
I am just waiting for the 30-50k rebate AND tax credit to buy a twin turbo diesel Corvette !!!
Just using the excise tax (there are plenty more layers, if folks are interested)
another reason to like like model diesels.
So for example a VW Jetta 1.8T (requires premium) /2.0 (requires regular) gets 30 mpg (either, gassers)
TDI @ 49 mpg (D2)
(California) excise tax on a gal of
gas is .18 cents
D2 is .18 cents.
So far: same/same
So taxation is .006 per mile driven, gasser ;
.00367 per mile driven, D2
(.006-.00367=.00233/.006=) 39% LESS TAXATION PER MILE DRIVEN.
If you are used to driving a diesel, per mile driven a like model gasser is paying 63.5% MORE than D2.
local prices snapshot D2=2.61 RUG 1.95 PUG 2.29
This morning filled with
D2 @ $ 2.359 per gal
Glanced over at:
RUG @ $ 1.739
PUG @ $ 1.939
VW Jetta like model "cost per mile driven"
TDI - 50mpg / $ 2.359 per gal = .04718 cents
2.0 - 30/1.739 = .057967
1.8T - 30/1.939 = .06463
D2 per mile driven like model is 18.6% cheaper than RUG, 27% cheaper than PUG.
I am sure the anti D2 folks can do the math when matrix of D2, RUG,PUG is up around $4.00 per gal.
A short term goal: (30-40 years= 1 generation) You will know the system will be serious about cutting consumption when D2 is cheaper per gal than RUG to PUG. Dead serious will be when the population of alternative fuel passenger, (of which D2 is a subset) vehicle population are exponentially higher. Till then they will camouflage the true cost. (per mile driven)
EV vehicles at current electrical rates will exponentially crash the cost per mile driven for fuel !!!!!
And in the inner city, where girls get pregnant at 15, two generations of welfare are about 30 years, when the 30 year old is a grandmother...
That might give a different time frame for diesel fuel...
The type of fuel is not really that important to me. I was originally making a few observations. The cost is an issue and until diesel prices get close to RUG/PUG on a nation wide basis diesel car sales will be limited. You could say that the diesel invasion has been postponed due to bad weather.
You said :"Most vehicles that have both gas and diesel options are getting about 40% better mileage highway." Is that really true? The ML320 gets 20% better highway mpg vs. the ML350. The E320 is 25% better than the E350.
The Jetta diesel is 38% better, but then the gas version only gets 29 mpg highway on premium while a Malibu with the 4 gets 33 mpg highway on regular.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/diesel.shtml
Just making a few observations. The forum title is Diesel in the News. One can comment on a news article without actually owning a diesel. :shades:
And as to something better for the environment my PPB blows gassers and diesels right out of the water.
You may want to check out the following link:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/12/ford-fusion-hyb.html#more
The car could be a serious competitor for diesel cars like the Jetta.
(PPB = pedal powered bike)
As far as different cars. In the Mercedes you would want to compare the E320 CDI to the V8 model to get the closest driving experience. Even the very poor EPA gives the diesel version a combined 35% increase in mileage. In real life driver's report on average getting 45% better with the diesel over the gas "E" car. That would be Premium required on the gasser. The ML and GL are very similar comparisons.
Those reporting mileage on the 2009 Jetta TDI are doing 40% better than the gas counterpart. And if you drive a few hundred miles in the diesel version you will understand why so many would pay more per gallon for the diesel.
I am personally hoping that diesel remains higher at least until I get a chance to try the new X5 diesel and make my choice between my 3 diesel choices. Unless someone else brings a diesel SUV into the mix. My goal is a full size SUV that gets near 30 MPG out on the highway. I know one man with a GL320 CDI that consistently gets 28 MPG on the highway. Never under 20 just short city trips. That beats the heck out of my 17 MPG on the highway with the Sequoia.
The 2001 Z06 Corvette gets 26 mpg and at xxx mph !!! Yet the Fusion is an economy car!?? OK !!?? I will just drive it slower.
I get 38-42 in a Honda Civic. While I don't know what a Ford Fusion hybrid compared to the Ford Fusion would compare, the price difference for the Civic hybrid at the time was $7,400 MORE than Civic. For giggles, how long would it take either or both to B/E?
For most... NOT !! Around here driving a PPB is akin to... not wanting to live too much longer....
link title
Bob
If GM would offer a decent sized diesel in their Tahoe or Trailblazer sized vehicles, I would give them another shot at my wallet.
You can get the same FE with a diesel in the city with an auto stop system (engine shuts down at a stop light or after several seconds of idling). That saves fuel right there and is much less complex than a hybrid system. Most people commute on the highway, an area where hybrids lose big time to diesel.
As to PPB, I would love to use one, but in metro D.C. riding one is suicide.
As to getting a domestic diesel from GM, don't hold your breath. Idiot Wagoneer is about as anti-diesel as they come.
I would think that many people would intentionally buy a boring car but will avoid a car that looks like it was slapped together by duct tape...
While the average person probably does not know what the UAW is, they certainly know if the car squeaks, rattles, and closes like a tin can...they may not know "UAW", but they know a POS when they see one, and THAT, IMO, goes to the union labor making the car...
As far as making a diesel, the automakers ought to notice the improved mpg from them, stretching our limited petroleum resources even further, while developing fuel cells and other means...hybrid cars will be a problem when it is time to buy a new battery and dispose of the old one...the enviros will go bonkers when they see all those batteries in landfills...be careful what you wish for, you might get it...
Belabor on................................................................
Design-wise - jeez, some of these vehicles have questionable esthetics, at least to my eye. The interiors lack some ergonomic details. Why is the radio so far away? Why is the onboard computer information button so far away? Why won't the outside mirrors adjust enough outward so I don't have any blindspots? Why are those mirrors so small and poorly shaped? So, I guess the reason I haven't owned a "Big 3" car in over 20 years falls on the management.
So tell me again what they're going to do with the taxpayer money to fix the design issues that I perceive as deal-breakers for me?
I wish I knew..................
How about COMPLEXITY decreases longevity further perpetuating the throwaway mentality of our consumerism. The more to go wrong the higher the cost of maintenance after the warranty. The more likely a person will dump it for a new car. Maybe good for the economy, bad for the environment.
Complexity is the future of cars. When all cars have it (and the REALLY GOOD ones already do) then it cannot be called a negative.
It is then called "status quo."
..
... I really hope these new systems by Bosch, Delphi and Green Diesel Corp and ???, will eliminate the need for particulate traps, that I am close to calling a failure.
Blue Tec does take extra hardware and some extra software. Six pages for the basics is not so bad. I wonder how many pages cover the basics for a hybrid like the Prius or others like it. The computer used to control Blue Tec is not as messy as you make it out to be.