Any of the gasses or liquids in the same family would work, in theory. Yes, the tanks are a bit of a problem, but they are loads cheaper than a set of batteries to replace and with a purpose-built vehicle, the tanks wouldn't be a miserable kludge. Early electric vehicles were similar as well fi you remember, with their trunks filled with batteries and so on.
It just works. Pickens is a bit over the top, but we do have tons of the stuff that we could make and it's not going to use a drop of ethanol or foreign oil. And most people, if you could get 300-400 miles range, wouldn't care WHAT they fill the car with as long as it's cheap and quick.
it's not going to use a drop of ethanol or foreign oil.
I think people would be surprised to know just how much natural gas is used in the growing of corn and processing ethanol. The main fertilizer used to grow corn anhydrous ammonia is made from natural gas. Natural gas is used to process the corn into ethanol. Of course a lot of diesel is used in the farming and transportation of ethanol. I have never figured out why we spend so much time experimenting with hydrogen cars when it takes as much natural gas to produce the hydrogen as it would to just power the car. The trick now is getting the massive amounts of Natural Gas out of the Arctic down to the people. It will decrease our trade deficit and benefit Alaska as well as the Midwest. As long as they do not waste it growing corn for ethanol.
Being as how this is a diesel thread, just the Honda nat gas product shows how natural gas is even farther from implementation than diesel. Diesel only has a "small premium" compared to natural gas. The natural gas Civic costs 25,100 plus 1200 and installation costs: compared with a DX 16,205. The math indicates a min of 9,000 over a gasser. If you want that way cheaper home fuel ability you are talking more like 10,000 over. The nat gas EPA ratings are 24/36 vs 25/36 rug to pug.
CNG is a great idea. I have often wondered why we don't take advantage of it. I remember a trip to Canada a few years ago and the cabs there could run on either cng or gasoline...dual systems. That could solve a lot of problems here. Fill up at home for most of your needs then buy gas or diesel when and if you needed it.
I do remember that they had problems running on cng at higher altitudes.
... I've made a prediction on Edmunds that urea systems will be obsolete before the last truckstop in California has the pumps and tanks installed. So: we have the relatively new Argonne Labs patent for NOx reduction, and today we have breaking news that Eaton Corp. and Clean Diesel Technologies are collaborating on a system that will improve Eaton's system that does not require on-board tanks or a couple hundred million of infrastructure. Geeshe, what a novel idea: USA technology for a USA and Earth problem. .. ... I am sure the bean counters in Pilot and TA told the execs that they are the smartest guys in the room, because it's as simple as this: look at Europe: X amount of regs, equals X amount of fuel, equals X amount of urea, BUT did they tell you this technology might be ten years old by the time you have it implemented. Maybe that is the problem, the bean counters and the reg makers are building engines. It might actually be a fortuitous time for Flying J to be in Chapter 11 as they should come out the other side of this and not have truckers haul away their probably hazardous ammonia tanks. Arnold, why not save the State and the trucking industry, a few hundred million and stop this nightmare before the first one goes in the ground ??? But wait, don't forget Homeland Security on this deal !!!
Well we know that eight years of an oil administration that could do nothing right what are we up against with the coming Clinton 2.0' or Obama for those that have not noticed. :sick:
... The 2009 Dodge with 6.7 Cummins MEETS 2010 CARB regs with NO urea. It has a particulate filter with catalyst. Go ahead, TA and Pilot, make my day. Ironically, Cummins is setting up a large urea distribution network, for other models and manufacturers.
Quite a number of the diesel cars here in Europe use Disel Particulate Filters, (DPF). They appear to be potentially troublesome if car only wanders around town and the exhaust doesn't get really hot, (enough to burn off the nasties). Dashboard message comes up so you need to go do a circa 20 minute run at 50mph to get it all hot and clean. Miss that opportunity and it's down to min power and a trip to the dealer for cat cleaning. Get caught with this 3 times and you may well need a new cat............and that's not a warranty item in those circumstances, apparently. Anyway, that's my simplistic take on the topic. The link is better, (it's from a leasing company). Let me make it clear that I don't know anyone who has had this problem, (and most of my friends drive modern diesels), but it does appear on various Forums from time to time - and gets a lot of attention; as "bad" things always do. Enjoy.
... Allt, technically it's a catalyst absorber. I've posted on here that I think the exchange program for the particulate filters might be better. They are cleaned in a facility that is designed for such work. It would be great if they only needed cleaning once a year. What is the urea infrastructure over there ?
Algae biodiesel has been touted here on this thread for several years. Notice the Feds did not participate. I think the whole alternative fuel thing will work better without the government getting involved. They always seem to mess up everything the touch. Corn ethanol and MTBE both come to mind.
The biofuel blend included components derived from algae and jatropha plants. Both are sustainable, second-generation sources that don’t have an effect on food crops or water resources, according to Continental.
The algae oil was provided by Sapphire Energy, and the jatropha oil was provided by Terasol Energy. Other partners with Continental on the project were Boeing, CFM International, a joint company of General Electric and Snecma, and refining technology developer UOP, a Honeywell company.
Sustainable biofuels for aviation are a real near-term option, Jennifer Holmgren, general manager of UOP Renewable Energy and Chemicals, said Wednesday.
“We believe production levels could reach hundreds of millions of gallons per year by 2012,” Holmgren said.
It looks like at least 15 other companies are doing R&D on algae biodiesel
Looking deeper into Sapphire Energy it looks like a familiar name is a prime investor. Bill Gates dumped his stock in Corn Ethanol and went into Biodiesel. I could have told him to do that several years ago. Rockefeller money is also involved.
For Mr. Gates, the investment in Sapphire marks a shift in his clean-fuel strategy and perhaps a sign of a broader interest in alternative energy. An early investor in Pacific Ethanol Inc., Cascade sold its stake earlier this year, according to market data from Thomson Financial.
Could another well-known ethanol investor be far behind? Vinod Khosla, a Silicon Valley billionaire whose personal investment vehicle has backed numerous ethanol-related companies, is scheduled to give the keynote address next month at the Algae Biomass Summit. This has led to speculation that he might be looking at algae for investment opportunities.
... Appears the lurkers are accepting UREA as inevitable. It IS a rolling juggernaut; however SOMEBODY in CARB or the governor's office ought to be able to stop it. BTW, Pilot and TA there is no law that says you have to sell the fluid.
As it stands, with today's gas vs. diesel prices at the pump, these particular hybrids have a clear economy advantage over even the very frugal Volkswagen Jetta TDI. But - and this is a big but - do we all really expect the national average for regular gasoline (according to the Energy Information Administration) to remain at $1.78 (figure as of 1/12/09)? Wild fluctuations like we saw last summer could quickly diminish the amazingly low cents-per-mile figure of the gas/electric hybrids. Then again, if gas goes up, diesel will likely go even higher, so maybe my point is moot. Yet again, worldwide industry, expansion, and building, all of which rely on diesel fuel for industrial machinery, are down significantly, perhaps narrowing and ultimately eliminating diesel's premium over gasoline. Could the worldwide recession result in diesel prices at the pump coming down to, say, the level of premium gasoline or less? Ye economists at large, let me know if I'm dreaming or making sense.
I would swag a guess as to the real answers are at the political level. The real "rubber meets the road" answers are what actually is being incorporated into the IRS tax code. The closest "US @2" (us and the USA) get to getting a mere glimpse, for example is the IRS Code Section 30 B (baker), , VW Jetta TDI (being one of a sub set-aka) 1300 tax credit, aka Advanced Lean Burn Technology Motor Vehicle Tax Credit, available on the first 60,000 vehicles ... Most folks are almost asleep just by the above bill board advertising !!!! :lemon:
etc etc.... yada yada....(27 results found on http:// www.irs.gov/)
Indeed the pickle is getting consumers to use MORE fuel (decrease prices) and to get the "business" side to produce more. So if you drop the prices for consumers the hope is consumers use MORE. What is frightening to those policy makers are the consumers are using less and will continue that course. This is like DAH ...as the whole strategy all along has been to scare folks to death !! ??
Policy makers also would want to raise the (taxation) cost of diesel to business (consumers also) . ' Business' respond by cutting costs and laying off of people re two no brainer responses. This further puts the policy makers behind an even BIGGER pickle because they would really like to enact an exponentially higher tax rate (AKA HUGE) fuel tax aka $1.00 per gal.
Indeed the government has long made more money than oil companies and now when everything is going south- wants to make EVEN MORE !!!!! This would probably have the effect of even lowering the now scary recessionary type scenario, inching it closer to the D word... DEPRESSION.
The sad part about it is NO ONE in the media is tracking all this supposedly better clean air due to decreased consumption. They are prattling on about global warming during the GREATEST cold snap in literally decades.
My take is for those folks SO enamored of 9 dollar per gal fuel, either move to Europe or contribute the make up amount to the IRS. Neither will say thank you, as the Europeans hate Americans and the US, and the IRS does not have a thank you letter legislated by Congress: but then you would have achieved the result for yourself.
It would seem that solar power would be big in your area so maybe you know a lot about it.
I have a question for you that I have never understood. I see acres and acres of solar panels passively collecting sunlight and storing the energy in batteries. As a practical matter you can take a very simple plastic magnifying glass, focus the sunlight, burn a hole in a piece of wood in a matter of seconds, start a fire, or accomplish many other feats requiring heat.
With the above in mind it would seem that sunlight could be focused to heat water to produce steam (like the nuclear plants work) and be much more efficient.
No you are not missing anything. Indeed there are so called new technologies (1980's) that do EXACTLY that !! They use a parabolic (or some such propriatary shape) that magnifies, focuses and AMPLIES collected rays onto a cylinder filled with synthetic oil media, thus heating it and the heated liquid is used (ultimately) to push a turbine. I read about this about some solar panel farm in the Mojave Desert.
... the solar array in the Mojave near Edwards Air Force Base stores heat in an oil/medium and then can make steam 24 hours a day. The steady supply of energy is a major consideration in the future of solar.
I passed a Chevron today that is selling RUG for $2.07 and diesel for $2.19. The window of opportunity for getting a good deal on a diesel vehicle may be closing. I think the economy is killing all vehicle purchases. Local Toyota dealer had 106 Prius on the lot last week.
Their Jetta TDI has averaged 37.3 mpg in the over 11,000 miles they've accrued thus far.
The 47.8 MPG from 110,867 miles with my 2004 Prius pretty much killed it anyway. And the MPG from the new 2010 model will most definitely make that clear. But the ultimate wake-up call is Ford joining in with Fusion-Hybrid. It further comfirms that engine-only technology simply doesn't make any sense... regardless of fuel type.
Well the gasser Jetta gets 29 mpg!! So 28.6 % is better !!
The most obvious thing is they are not testing the Prius Hybrid side by side with the TDI. They might be afraid of the conclusions. If they run it like they purport to run the TDI, your 47.8 mph is probably totally blown !!
But on the other hand, over 112,000 miles my TDI yields about 50 mpg vs what you report. The range has been from 44 to 62 mpg. While I do know how to drive both, and for max mpg in each, I really don't even try on the TDI. So for example @ 75 mph with bursts to 80, it will get 59 mpg. In a daily commute 54 R/T miles Civic/Jetta TDI are ranges of 38-42, 48-52 mpg respectively. It would be interesting to know what a TDI hybrid Prius would do over and above your 47.8 mph. But as you know a TDI hybrid Prius is NOT made. This shows in like models, the policy is to talk about burning less while burning more !!! AND it is the law ! Might be why they don't want a diesel Prius that will get better mpg than a gasser Prius. ! It is certainly dramatic in the like models VW Jettas !
You left out some of the important information in your article. Comparing a Prius to a Jetta TDI is a joke. I spent a little over 15 minutes in a friend's 2009 Prius and they are a noisy little POC. I guess if you are not interested in smooth quiet safe handling they are ok. The new Fusion Hybrid shows promise. If Ford is as proud of them as the Escape Hybrid the $10k difference in price will never be found with better mileage. My brother in law just went out to buy the Escape hybrid. He ended up with the V6 loaded for $22k. The dealer would not come off of the $32k MSRP on the FEH. He is happy with the 21 MPG he is getting the first 1500 miles. For those that have more money than brains the hybrids are fine. I believe they suffer from certain psychological ailments that only wasting money will cure. :sick:
From your posted article: even compared to the now class-leading 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid that netted 34 mpg overall in their 300-mile test run. Their Jetta TDI has averaged 37.3 mpg in the over 11,000 miles they've accrued thus far, and guaranteed those miles have seen plenty of full throttle driving and liberal use of full boost from its turbocharger. A cross-country tour by mileage-busting Australian couple John and Helen Taylor netted 58 mpg from a stock VW Jetta TDI, and that was earned while staying within 5 mph of the posted limit, not put-putting at 10mph or anything ridiculous.
PS You could have felt really smug if you had put that 110k miles on a Moped at 200 MPG. Without all the wasted complexity of a hybrid.
Outside of the "gee wiz" sexy stuff on the Prius, it actually compares better with Toyota Corolla/Honda Civic. The Civic handles better!!!! For my .02 cents, both figuratively and literally, the price differential blows the Prius out of the water. So for example, when we needed a commute car, we chose the 04 Civic against the 04 Prius and the price difference of 12,500 then and now, will certainly buy a lot of RUG.
So while I know stating the facts is like raking finger nails on a chalk board to John, $12,500 @ today's rug prices $2. per gal will buy 6,250 gals: @ 38 mpg, will give me 237,500 more commute miles. I wonder if he would run the B/E between the two being as how he gets 47.8 mpg. vs my range of 38-42 for a purposeful commute
The bigger, faster, more efficient 2010 Prius drives the point home.
Hmm Same length and 3/4 of an inch wider. I guess that is bigger. Gained 8/10ths of a second 0-60 MPH. I guess that is faster. Does it still ride like a Mack truck and so noisy you cannot talk inside? Does it handle the same as the old one like a cheap golf cart? I think the 2010 Prius would qualify for the saying a "Pig with Lipstick, is still a Pig". Are we supposed to be impressed with 50 MPG combined? The last generation had a 55 MPG rating until the EPA changed the test methods to fit hybrid technology. I don't see any EPA test results yet. Still a lot smaller than the competing Jetta TDI. And will never be as much fun to drive as the Jetta. I think that there should be a hybrid challenge. A race between the Prius and the Jetta TDI. We know which would win the fastest around the track. We should also see which gets the best mileage driving flat out. I think you would find the Prius just about worthless. I think they got 17 MPG with a Prius when driving it aggressively. And the Jetta TDI was in the high 30 MPG range.
And lastly, I doubt Toyota is going to want to ship the new Prius over here from China until they sell the 1000s of 09 Prius still sitting on the lots getting older by the day.
Got any diesel news or are we supposed to fall down and worship your hybrid god?
Thanks for driving home and agreeing with the points I made. It is hard to get better than 50 mpg in a DIESEL Prius when..... there are no diesel Prius'. There are of course other issues but the point is like models, and I have use a Jetta vs Jetta vs Jetta comparison, As you will already know and I posted for others to see, Honda has done it in the Civic with gasser, hybrid, nat gas, diesel.
The Honda Civic diesel model (European to ww overseas market) that can easily get 56 mpg and it is FAR cheaper, etc, etc than the Prius and its own hybrid offering.
In the year I considered them, the hybrid was app 7,500 more expensive than the gasser. In Europe anyway, the diesel carries a slight premium over a the poor selling Honda gasser- which at most I would swag, make the differential 6,500. You may want to google why names such as Honda Hybrid/Toyota Prius do not sell well at all in the European markets.
Again it is hard to say what the US Honda Civic diesel model will get, as the system you cherish makes it finanically impossible bring them here. So if the Civic diesel gets 56 over my Civic gasser's 38, is 47% LESS better? Obviously if you say no, which indeed you have, your defacto stance is burning more is better than burning LESS, while vilifying the burning of more- which is what you are advocating folks do defacto anyway !!!
Applying the gasser to diesel mpg ratios, IF the Prius had a diesel hybrid and got 47% better than your 47.8 +(gasser) mpg that is app 70 mpg. That might beg the question: why is the Prius with so called 50 mph being sold when a Prius with 70 mpg is... better?
Notice that to come to the conclusion he did (he's writing to consuming demographics and their sense and sensibiities) ; to push the "fairness" scenario, even he did not directly compare a Jetta diesel to a Prius hybrid, as the Prius is obviously and CLEARLY more costly ! So get some "Insight" if you believe the hybrid to diesel challenge is a WASH.
My premise is still the same, in like models diesel burns LESS, gasser burns more. If the system WAS/IS really serious about compelling people, give the folks an IRS tax credit (7500 in the 04 MY) for folks to buy a hybrid @ a gasser price- like model. )
It is the diesel's turn to get the tax credits. VW, BMW and MB are all getting tax credits for their CLEAN diesel offerings. Though they were kind of chintzy due to the poorly conceived EPA mileage tests. A little is better than nothing. In the case of the BMW X5 and the GL/ML320 CDI the diesels are less than the comparable V8s. And the torque that provides driving pleasure is better than the V8s in all cases. Now with VW bringing the Touareg V6 TDI to all 50 states I will have 4 choices to pick from. It had to happen sooner or later. The EU could not keep us out of the diesel loop forever. With nothing to compare to diesel in the USA, it was a no brainer. Too bad the domestics have their heads in the sand.
Notice since the Toyota and Honda tax credits are all gone they are having a tough time unloading their hybrids. Selling hybrids below invoice has to cut them deeply.
Indeed ! The Jetta TDI tax credit of $1,300 tax year 2009 brings the real cost down. You already know this, (but I had this discussion yesterday with a relative @ lunch yesterday) and that is @ LOWER @ market fuel prices, diesel (per mile driven) percentage advantages do indeed lessen. But as I have mentioned in the past it is really a metric/barometer of how serious the system is about REAL fuel cuts rather than just INCREASING the fuel componet (per mile driven) cost.
So for example @ 4 dollars per gal the American consumers and voters have LOUDLY made their preferences known. But leave it to the politicians to find "creative" ways to increase the per mile driven costs !!!! There is literally no question the system SERIOUSLY wants to increase the per mile driven cost ! One way they have decided to do it is to weave EVERY concept in the color GREEN. :sick: Upshot was: how long do you think fuel prices will remain LOW or sink lower? The other side of it of course is it makes a 15 year old SUV very cost effective to operate. The metric is whatever the monrhly payment of a Prius is (say 597.00 for 4 years: say . @ 2 per gal that gets me 4477 miles per mo!! or 53000 miles per year. We do far less than 1000 miles per month. SO, If I exceed the monthly fuel cost in the owned SUV it is time to get something cheaper. But it is weird to get a size 5 shoe when your need/want is really a size 15.
So to me oxymoronically and counter intuitively, now is the time to buy diesels as fuel prices remain low (or sink lower) and the perceived advantages of diesel are called into question.
... Don't wait, the latest debacle in the soon to be obsolete urea systems is that one or more of the catalyst system manufacturers is using a copper compound in the converter that the urea is misted over. Problem is, sometimes a reaction with or enhanced by / with copper creates dioxin. There is a fear that even if this is not a problem with these particular systems that if dioxin appears anywhere it will trigger a huge amount of litigation.
... I am in favor of bio-diesel from algae; however word comes from Europe that the SCR-Urea after-treatment systems might not be warrantied with any more than six percent bio-diesel. And more bad news on the dioxin front, in an industrial area of the Pacific Northwest hazardous levels of dioxin have been found. Scientists are trying to determine if it's from a nearby factory and or from a high concentration of big trucks. Of course none of these trucks have the SCR systems yet; however the potential litigation is frightening. People are afraid to walk their dogs in the area, as there has been a few of our four footed friends have died from cancer in the area.
Now we're talking, and here's why. Using the EPA's fuel-economy figures for both cars (27 mpg combined for the 335d and 20 mpg combined for the 335i) and a rate of 15,000 miles driven annually, we find that the 335d will burn 195 gallons of fuel fewer than a 335i.
By virtue of burning less fuel the 335i also emits considerably less CO2 every year — 7.79 tons/year vs. 9.76 tons/year. So the answer for those whose hearts are green is simple: Buy the 335d. Still, there are other benefits to consider The 335d's acceleration is impressive
The story the numbers don't tell is how effortlessly the diesel gets the job done. This power plant is amply engaging below 3,000 rpm. We found ourselves outrunning everyone while grunting it around town without ever approaching the upper reaches of the tachometer. Venture beyond 3,000 rpm and you'll find enough life left in the top third of the tachometer to make hard driving enjoyable. And you'll do it without feeling like you're overworking the engine. When we start driving quickly, we inevitably end up spending lots of time around redline, and we've found this diesel will play in that arena with a willingness to rev all the way to redline.
So what we have here is a class-leading sedan with plenty of grunt, lots of range and a large price tag. Thing is, if you're shopping in this price range and have an ounce of social responsibility in your soul, then the 2009 BMW 335d is undeniably appealing. There isn't another car that can match its strengths. And it doesn't have many weaknesses. You don't even need a cost/benefit analysis to tell you that.
Hola, Jose ! Great info. thanks for sharing. Most of us here in the U.S. are still patiently waiting for a good selection of modern diesels !
The 335d sounds like a fantastic car and I know you love yours. I personally do not need that much power and would welcome the same car with a smaller engine.
Let's see what some of the diesel nay sayers have to say about how green the 335d actually is !!
I still have a problem with this car ... on paper, at least. And the fact that the rags continue to compare it to the 335 gasser. Based on the preliminary acceleration numbers, I believe it should be compared to the 328 instead. But I suppose that doesn't make for an interesting story since the 328 makes far more financial sense in that comparison.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I am sure you have your reasons, but to me the 0-60 acceleration numbers are not used much in the real world. To me they are almost useless. This is not to say I would criticize you buying a BMW 328 I vs a 335 D, and for obvious reasons- economic being one. If the US market were not so (defacto) "anti diesel", you should/would probably have the choice of a BMW 328 D. Not everybody needs or really wants the 425 # ft of torque on a BMW 335 D, nor that comparative hit in fuel mileage. But having test driven it a number of times , YAW HOO !!!
I come at this from the perspective of having that 4 sec zero to 60 car, and suv's that you can almost literally smoke a cigarette during a 0-60 run. So for example a Z06 has been documented to be specified for 100 each, full zero to 60, 4 second to sub 4 sec runs. Then of course, things (aka expensive) start to break. How many folks buy a 4 door passenger sedan for that purpose? BMW does not document how many full 0-60 runs and probably for good reason.
All I know is ALL my friends who have (gasser) BMW's have a hard time getting out of the service bay door without leaving pretty close to $1,000 (after the low warranty period) for seemingly small things. So if folks are looking for diesels to match a gassers zero to 60 numbers I can understand that. However, they might not really understand the (design) differences nor more importantly be happy with the differences and perhaps should bypass a diesel.
As a so called "real world concern" I am more dialed into the 50 mph to 120 mph parameters (or how the car rags divide them)
You can make the leap FROM the DARK side Houdini 1 !
One pause I have is BMW 335 D's urea refill at oil change intervals vs nada for the 155# ft of torque 03 Jetta TDI and the 236 # ft of torque 09 Jetta TDI.
There is still a sense of UN-believability of 50 mpg @ 85-90 mph even after 113,000 miles !!! When I go 75 mph (sans no radar detector) with bursts to 80 mph and it puts up 56-59 mpg......!!??
This might be proof positve why the logistics system remains @ upwards of 98% gasser passenger cars !? Or conversely diesel passenger cars remain @ less than 1% of the passenger vehicle fleet.
The other news; the VW's available in the US markets are fuel hogs compared to diesels available in the European and WW markets !!?? :lemon: :shades:
If the US market were not so (defacto) "anti diesel", you should/would probably have the choice of a BMW 328 D.
Maybe. But, unfortunately, I think BMW is going to fall back on this argument when the 335d fails. And it will fail, mind you, because of the reasons I stated, not necessarily because folks are anti-diesel. I can't see many folks driving both, looking at the sticker prices, looking at the EPA numbers, and ultimately deciding to go with the diesel. But maybe I'm wrong.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Whether you are or not, a diesel 2009 BMW 335D (unless it is a very unreliable dog) will be in the cards @ the 1 st , 2 nd ,3 rd years/2010, 2011,2012 !!!
My guess is the BMW gasser zero to 60 crowd will not be happy with the diesels' 0-60 times, and a fair number will come off lease. Most BMW gasser owners could care about mpg, since most get like 20/25 MAX mpg. The 3 series diesel prices will regress to the 3 series gasser prices mean. The urea refill will only be an issue after warranty coverage ceases.
So if you are correct, one will be able to get an even more previously expensive car CHEAPER than a 3 series gasser. How cool will that be?
So I hope you are right, for I was most impressed with the 2009 BMW 335 D twin turbo, 265 hp with 425 # ft of torque.
1. for those needing it to be seamless from an automatic transmission, it actually shifts WAY quicker and closer to "flawless" than an automatic.
2. For those wanting a sport mode, it can be wound up (or more engine braking).
3. For those wanting an "automatic MANUAL", it can be a hoot. (clutch pedal LESS, automatic MANUAL )
4. You can also mix it up (items 1,2,3,) on the fly, if so desired.
I can see why there is a learning curve to this engine/drive train combination, all the way to: some folks really don't "get it @ ALL", or leave me clueless.
Actually I made the leap back in 1979 when I bought a used 1978 Mercedes 240 D. Man that was a great car. I loved it. Relative to other cars of that era there was just no comparison. Not much hp but lots of torque and it could cruise all day at 80 mph and never have to stop to refuel. Not a squeak or rattle to be found and diesel was practically free in those days. Very elegant.
I had to sell it after I got a company car. 1980 Olds Cutlas. What a piece. That thing was on its last legs after about 40 K. Actually it started on the downhill swing at around 20 K. I can't tell you how many struts, belts, hoses, etc. would break at the least opportune time. From day one it had a shimmy if you went over 55 mph. I shudder when I think of it.
Comments
It just works. Pickens is a bit over the top, but we do have tons of the stuff that we could make and it's not going to use a drop of ethanol or foreign oil. And most people, if you could get 300-400 miles range, wouldn't care WHAT they fill the car with as long as it's cheap and quick.
I think people would be surprised to know just how much natural gas is used in the growing of corn and processing ethanol. The main fertilizer used to grow corn anhydrous ammonia is made from natural gas. Natural gas is used to process the corn into ethanol. Of course a lot of diesel is used in the farming and transportation of ethanol. I have never figured out why we spend so much time experimenting with hydrogen cars when it takes as much natural gas to produce the hydrogen as it would to just power the car. The trick now is getting the massive amounts of Natural Gas out of the Arctic down to the people. It will decrease our trade deficit and benefit Alaska as well as the Midwest. As long as they do not waste it growing corn for ethanol.
I do remember that they had problems running on cng at higher altitudes.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
..
... I am sure the bean counters in Pilot and TA told the execs that they are the smartest guys in the room, because it's as simple as this: look at Europe: X amount of regs, equals X amount of fuel, equals X amount of urea, BUT did they tell you this technology might be ten years old by the time you have it implemented. Maybe that is the problem, the bean counters and the reg makers are building engines. It might actually be a fortuitous time for Flying J to be in Chapter 11 as they should come out the other side of this and not have truckers haul away their probably hazardous ammonia tanks. Arnold, why not save the State and the trucking industry, a few hundred million and stop this nightmare before the first one goes in the ground ??? But wait, don't forget Homeland Security on this deal !!!
:sick:
Quite a number of the diesel cars here in Europe use Disel Particulate Filters, (DPF). They appear to be potentially troublesome if car only wanders around town and the exhaust doesn't get really hot, (enough to burn off the nasties). Dashboard message comes up so you need to go do a circa 20 minute run at 50mph to get it all hot and clean. Miss that opportunity and it's down to min power and a trip to the dealer for cat cleaning. Get caught with this 3 times and you may well need a new cat............and that's not a warranty item in those circumstances, apparently. Anyway, that's my simplistic take on the topic. The link is better, (it's from a leasing company). Let me make it clear that I don't know anyone who has had this problem, (and most of my friends drive modern diesels), but it does appear on various Forums from time to time - and gets a lot of attention; as "bad" things always do. Enjoy.
DPF
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/continental/6199665.html
The biofuel blend included components derived from algae and jatropha plants. Both are sustainable, second-generation sources that don’t have an effect on food crops or water resources, according to Continental.
The algae oil was provided by Sapphire Energy, and the jatropha oil was provided by Terasol Energy. Other partners with Continental on the project were Boeing, CFM International, a joint company of General Electric and Snecma, and refining technology developer UOP, a Honeywell company.
Sustainable biofuels for aviation are a real near-term option, Jennifer Holmgren, general manager of UOP Renewable Energy and Chemicals, said Wednesday.
“We believe production levels could reach hundreds of millions of gallons per year by 2012,” Holmgren said.
It looks like at least 15 other companies are doing R&D on algae biodiesel
http://earth2tech.com/2008/03/27/15-algae-startups-bringing-pond-scum-to-fuel-ta- nks/
For Mr. Gates, the investment in Sapphire marks a shift in his clean-fuel strategy and perhaps a sign of a broader interest in alternative energy. An early investor in Pacific Ethanol Inc., Cascade sold its stake earlier this year, according to market data from Thomson Financial.
Could another well-known ethanol investor be far behind? Vinod Khosla, a Silicon Valley billionaire whose personal investment vehicle has backed numerous ethanol-related companies, is scheduled to give the keynote address next month at the Algae Biomass Summit. This has led to speculation that he might be looking at algae for investment opportunities.
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2008/09/17/bill-gates-goes-for-algae-i- nvests-in-biofuel-maker-sapphire-energy/
As it stands, with today's gas vs. diesel prices at the pump, these particular hybrids have a clear economy advantage over even the very frugal Volkswagen Jetta TDI. But - and this is a big but - do we all really expect the national average for regular gasoline (according to the Energy Information Administration) to remain at $1.78 (figure as of 1/12/09)? Wild fluctuations like we saw last summer could quickly diminish the amazingly low cents-per-mile figure of the gas/electric hybrids. Then again, if gas goes up, diesel will likely go even higher, so maybe my point is moot. Yet again, worldwide industry, expansion, and building, all of which rely on diesel fuel for industrial machinery, are down significantly, perhaps narrowing and ultimately eliminating diesel's premium over gasoline. Could the worldwide recession result in diesel prices at the pump coming down to, say, the level of premium gasoline or less? Ye economists at large, let me know if I'm dreaming or making sense.
etc etc.... yada yada....(27 results found on http:// www.irs.gov/)
Policy makers also would want to raise the (taxation) cost of diesel to business (consumers also) . ' Business' respond by cutting costs and laying off of people re two no brainer responses. This further puts the policy makers behind an even BIGGER pickle because they would really like to enact an exponentially higher tax rate (AKA HUGE) fuel tax aka $1.00 per gal.
Indeed the government has long made more money than oil companies and now when everything is going south- wants to make EVEN MORE !!!!! This would probably have the effect of even lowering the now scary recessionary type scenario, inching it closer to the D word... DEPRESSION.
The sad part about it is NO ONE in the media is tracking all this supposedly better clean air due to decreased consumption. They are prattling on about global warming during the GREATEST cold snap in literally decades.
My take is for those folks SO enamored of 9 dollar per gal fuel, either move to Europe or contribute the make up amount to the IRS. Neither will say thank you, as the Europeans hate Americans and the US, and the IRS does not have a thank you letter legislated by Congress: but then you would have achieved the result for yourself.
I have a question for you that I have never understood. I see acres and acres of solar panels passively collecting sunlight and storing the energy in batteries. As a practical matter you can take a very simple plastic magnifying glass, focus the sunlight, burn a hole in a piece of wood in a matter of seconds, start a fire, or accomplish many other feats requiring heat.
With the above in mind it would seem that sunlight could be focused to heat water to produce steam (like the nuclear plants work) and be much more efficient.
This may sound dumb, but what am I missing here?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
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Their Jetta TDI has averaged 37.3 mpg in the over 11,000 miles they've accrued thus far.
The 47.8 MPG from 110,867 miles with my 2004 Prius pretty much killed it anyway. And the MPG from the new 2010 model will most definitely make that clear. But the ultimate wake-up call is Ford joining in with Fusion-Hybrid. It further comfirms that engine-only technology simply doesn't make any sense... regardless of fuel type.
The most obvious thing is they are not testing the Prius Hybrid side by side with the TDI. They might be afraid of the conclusions. If they run it like they purport to run the TDI, your 47.8 mph is probably totally blown !!
But on the other hand, over 112,000 miles my TDI yields about 50 mpg vs what you report. The range has been from 44 to 62 mpg. While I do know how to drive both, and for max mpg in each, I really don't even try on the TDI. So for example @ 75 mph with bursts to 80, it will get 59 mpg. In a daily commute 54 R/T miles Civic/Jetta TDI are ranges of 38-42, 48-52 mpg respectively. It would be interesting to know what a TDI hybrid Prius would do over and above your 47.8 mph. But as you know a TDI hybrid Prius is NOT made. This shows in like models, the policy is to talk about burning less while burning more !!! AND it is the law ! Might be why they don't want a diesel Prius that will get better mpg than a gasser Prius. ! It is certainly dramatic in the like models VW Jettas !
From your posted article:
even compared to the now class-leading 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid that netted 34 mpg overall in their 300-mile test run. Their Jetta TDI has averaged 37.3 mpg in the over 11,000 miles they've accrued thus far, and guaranteed those miles have seen plenty of full throttle driving and liberal use of full boost from its turbocharger. A cross-country tour by mileage-busting Australian couple John and Helen Taylor netted 58 mpg from a stock VW Jetta TDI, and that was earned while staying within 5 mph of the posted limit, not put-putting at 10mph or anything ridiculous.
PS
You could have felt really smug if you had put that 110k miles on a Moped at 200 MPG. Without all the wasted complexity of a hybrid.
Welcome back John!
So while I know stating the facts is like raking finger nails on a chalk board to John, $12,500 @ today's rug prices $2. per gal will buy 6,250 gals: @ 38 mpg, will give me 237,500 more commute miles. I wonder if he would run the B/E between the two being as how he gets 47.8 mpg. vs my range of 38-42 for a purposeful commute
Statistical misleading doesn't change the 37.3 MPG outcome.
The bigger, faster, more efficient 2010 Prius drives the point home...
Any technology delivering 50 MPG and SULEV emissions is the future.
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Hmm Same length and 3/4 of an inch wider. I guess that is bigger. Gained 8/10ths of a second 0-60 MPH. I guess that is faster. Does it still ride like a Mack truck and so noisy you cannot talk inside? Does it handle the same as the old one like a cheap golf cart? I think the 2010 Prius would qualify for the saying a "Pig with Lipstick, is still a Pig". Are we supposed to be impressed with 50 MPG combined? The last generation had a 55 MPG rating until the EPA changed the test methods to fit hybrid technology. I don't see any EPA test results yet. Still a lot smaller than the competing Jetta TDI. And will never be as much fun to drive as the Jetta. I think that there should be a hybrid challenge. A race between the Prius and the Jetta TDI. We know which would win the fastest around the track. We should also see which gets the best mileage driving flat out. I think you would find the Prius just about worthless. I think they got 17 MPG with a Prius when driving it aggressively. And the Jetta TDI was in the high 30 MPG range.
And lastly, I doubt Toyota is going to want to ship the new Prius over here from China until they sell the 1000s of 09 Prius still sitting on the lots getting older by the day.
Got any diesel news or are we supposed to fall down and worship your hybrid god?
The Honda Civic diesel model (European to ww overseas market) that can easily get 56 mpg and it is FAR cheaper, etc, etc than the Prius and its own hybrid offering.
In the year I considered them, the hybrid was app 7,500 more expensive than the gasser. In Europe anyway, the diesel carries a slight premium over a the poor selling Honda gasser- which at most I would swag, make the differential 6,500. You may want to google why names such as Honda Hybrid/Toyota Prius do not sell well at all in the European markets.
Again it is hard to say what the US Honda Civic diesel model will get, as the system you cherish makes it finanically impossible bring them here. So if the Civic diesel gets 56 over my Civic gasser's 38, is 47% LESS better? Obviously if you say no, which indeed you have, your defacto stance is burning more is better than burning LESS, while vilifying the burning of more- which is what you are advocating folks do defacto anyway !!!
Applying the gasser to diesel mpg ratios, IF the Prius had a diesel hybrid and got 47% better than your 47.8 +(gasser) mpg that is app 70 mpg. That might beg the question: why is the Prius with so called 50 mph being sold when a Prius with 70 mpg is... better?
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My premise is still the same, in like models diesel burns LESS, gasser burns more. If the system WAS/IS really serious about compelling people, give the folks an IRS tax credit (7500 in the 04 MY) for folks to buy a hybrid @ a gasser price- like model. )
It is the diesel's turn to get the tax credits. VW, BMW and MB are all getting tax credits for their CLEAN diesel offerings. Though they were kind of chintzy due to the poorly conceived EPA mileage tests. A little is better than nothing. In the case of the BMW X5 and the GL/ML320 CDI the diesels are less than the comparable V8s. And the torque that provides driving pleasure is better than the V8s in all cases. Now with VW bringing the Touareg V6 TDI to all 50 states I will have 4 choices to pick from. It had to happen sooner or later. The EU could not keep us out of the diesel loop forever. With nothing to compare to diesel in the USA, it was a no brainer. Too bad the domestics have their heads in the sand.
Notice since the Toyota and Honda tax credits are all gone they are having a tough time unloading their hybrids. Selling hybrids below invoice has to cut them deeply.
So for example @ 4 dollars per gal the American consumers and voters have LOUDLY made their preferences known. But leave it to the politicians to find "creative" ways to increase the per mile driven costs !!!! There is literally no question the system SERIOUSLY wants to increase the per mile driven cost ! One way they have decided to do it is to weave EVERY concept in the color GREEN. :sick: Upshot was: how long do you think fuel prices will remain LOW or sink lower? The other side of it of course is it makes a 15 year old SUV very cost effective to operate. The metric is whatever the monrhly payment of a Prius is (say 597.00 for 4 years: say . @ 2 per gal that gets me 4477 miles per mo!! or 53000 miles per year. We do far less than 1000 miles per month. SO, If I exceed the monthly fuel cost in the owned SUV it is time to get something cheaper. But it is weird to get a size 5 shoe when your need/want is really a size 15.
So to me oxymoronically and counter intuitively, now is the time to buy diesels as fuel prices remain low (or sink lower) and the perceived advantages of diesel are called into question.
By virtue of burning less fuel the 335i also emits considerably less CO2 every year — 7.79 tons/year vs. 9.76 tons/year. So the answer for those whose hearts are green is simple: Buy the 335d. Still, there are other benefits to consider The 335d's acceleration is impressive
The story the numbers don't tell is how effortlessly the diesel gets the job done. This power plant is amply engaging below 3,000 rpm. We found ourselves outrunning everyone while grunting it around town without ever approaching the upper reaches of the tachometer. Venture beyond 3,000 rpm and you'll find enough life left in the top third of the tachometer to make hard driving enjoyable. And you'll do it without feeling like you're overworking the engine. When we start driving quickly, we inevitably end up spending lots of time around redline, and we've found this diesel will play in that arena with a willingness to rev all the way to redline.
So what we have here is a class-leading sedan with plenty of grunt, lots of range and a large price tag. Thing is, if you're shopping in this price range and have an ounce of social responsibility in your soul, then the 2009 BMW 335d is undeniably appealing. There isn't another car that can match its strengths. And it doesn't have many weaknesses. You don't even need a cost/benefit analysis to tell you that.
Edmund's 2009 BMW 335d Full Test
Gosh, I didn't knew I was so green :P
Regards,
Jose
The 335d sounds like a fantastic car and I know you love yours. I personally do not need that much power and would welcome the same car with a smaller engine.
Let's see what some of the diesel nay sayers have to say about how green the 335d actually is !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I come at this from the perspective of having that 4 sec zero to 60 car, and suv's that you can almost literally smoke a cigarette during a 0-60 run.
All I know is ALL my friends who have (gasser) BMW's have a hard time getting out of the service bay door without leaving pretty close to $1,000 (after the low warranty period) for seemingly small things. So if folks are looking for diesels to match a gassers zero to 60 numbers I can understand that. However, they might not really understand the (design) differences nor more importantly be happy with the differences and perhaps should bypass a diesel.
As a so called "real world concern" I am more dialed into the 50 mph to 120 mph parameters (or how the car rags divide them)
Besides that, I drive a Lexus LS so what do I know about BMW diesels?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
One pause I have is BMW 335 D's urea refill at oil change intervals vs nada for the 155# ft of torque 03 Jetta TDI and the 236 # ft of torque 09 Jetta TDI.
There is still a sense of UN-believability of 50 mpg @ 85-90 mph even after 113,000 miles !!! When I go 75 mph (sans no radar detector) with bursts to 80 mph and it puts up 56-59 mpg......!!??
This might be proof positve why the logistics system remains @ upwards of 98% gasser passenger cars !? Or conversely diesel passenger cars remain @ less than 1% of the passenger vehicle fleet.
The other news; the VW's available in the US markets are fuel hogs compared to diesels available in the European and WW markets !!?? :lemon: :shades:
Maybe. But, unfortunately, I think BMW is going to fall back on this argument when the 335d fails. And it will fail, mind you, because of the reasons I stated, not necessarily because folks are anti-diesel. I can't see many folks driving both, looking at the sticker prices, looking at the EPA numbers, and ultimately deciding to go with the diesel. But maybe I'm wrong.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
My guess is the BMW gasser zero to 60 crowd will not be happy with the diesels' 0-60 times, and a fair number will come off lease. Most BMW gasser owners could care about mpg, since most get like 20/25 MAX mpg. The 3 series diesel prices will regress to the 3 series gasser prices mean. The urea refill will only be an issue after warranty coverage ceases.
So if you are correct, one will be able to get an even more previously expensive car CHEAPER than a 3 series gasser. How cool will that be?
So I hope you are right, for I was most impressed with the 2009 BMW 335 D twin turbo, 265 hp with 425 # ft of torque.
The big diesels, not so much, I'm thinking.
Plus which they have to have a manual transmission.
I think Audi might have access to the DSG, Direct-Shift Gearbox .
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So far the D-SG on the Jetta diesel,
1. for those needing it to be seamless from an automatic transmission, it actually shifts WAY quicker and closer to "flawless" than an automatic.
2. For those wanting a sport mode, it can be wound up (or more engine braking).
3. For those wanting an "automatic MANUAL", it can be a hoot. (clutch pedal LESS, automatic MANUAL )
4. You can also mix it up (items 1,2,3,) on the fly, if so desired.
I can see why there is a learning curve to this engine/drive train combination, all the way to: some folks really don't "get it @ ALL", or leave me clueless.
Break in mpg so far is @ 43 mpg.
I had to sell it after I got a company car. 1980 Olds Cutlas. What a piece. That thing was on its last legs after about 40 K. Actually it started on the downhill swing at around 20 K. I can't tell you how many struts, belts, hoses, etc. would break at the least opportune time. From day one it had a shimmy if you went over 55 mph. I shudder when I think of it.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460