Diesels in the News

roland3

... Is Chapter 11 a good thing ? Well it might keep Flying J from making a huge mistake as they are the only major truck-stop chain to not commit to SCR/urea. Pilot and TA are headed full steam ahead to putting the urea in the ground. You (or maybe just I ) have to wonder if their engineering heads ought to get out of that loco-motive and read some technical news.
..
... Now we have news that GM has put the new the new Duramax on hold. Supposedly to save money. Well guess what,. I think that's right. Because it was scheduled to use a SCR/urea system, they can wait a few years and buy a non fluid using system, from a variety of sources, and still pass the latest regs.

KCRam

Now we have news that GM has put the new the new Duramax on hold.

That's the engine for the 1500. They are still going to have to adjust the current 6.6L V8 for the HD pickups to meet the 2010 emissions standards.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host

roland3

... Yes, probably more EGR. It would be amazing if one or more of these new, non-flluid, systems, would not need any EGR. BTW, the breahthrough Fiat Multi-Air cam system can accomplish EGR, internally, right accross the combustion chamber, without any external piping or valves. BTW-II, the Multi-Air is an amazing ICE breakthrough.

roland3

... The Multi-Air will appear in gas engines first, and then Diesels. It allows an installation of a high performance cam(s) and electro-hydraulic-electronically backs the valve action down for mid and low RPM performance, with the additional advantage of being able to throttle the gas engines with no throttle blades.

avalon02wh

http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/03/except-for-europeans-vehicle-manufacturers-d- itch-diesel-plans.html

Now that diesel prices are the about the same as RUG & PUG car makers are pulling the plug when they should be doing the opposite. I was actually looking forward to seeing how the GM 4.5L diesel was going to do in the MPG department.

http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/index.asp

Maybe the car makers will try again in another year or two when prices for fuel start going back up due to a lack of supply. In the mean time the following quote from Maxwell Smart might be appropriate:

"Missed it by that much."

gagrice

I think in the case of the GM smaller diesel the phrase "You Snooze, You Lose", fits perfectly.

ruking1

I also read in passing that starting with the 2010 MY, VW intendeds to oem and sell fully 40% of its inventory, TDI- turbo diesel.

Here's two new turbo diesel Cummins products link title

winter2

To quote a famous line from a famous Tom Hanks' movie:

"Stupid is as stupid does."

KCRam

Very old article on those Cummins engines. (See the last paragraph on page 4 - they note the 6.7L straight six had yet to be introduced.)

The V8 was reduced in size to 5.0L for Ram 1500 use, scheduled at this point for a MY2011 launch.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host

roland3

... The new Duramax is suppose to be very efficient because of it's heat management with the exhaust and fast responding turbo up in the V-ee betwixt the banks; also makes for a platform where it can replace any gas engine size-wise. They might bring it out as soon as they can buy a non-fluid using after-treatment system.

repoman1

To quote a famous line from a famous Tom Hanks' movie:
"Stupid is as stupid does."
-----------------------------------------
The manufacturers are doing exactly the opposite of what they should be doing.

To increase interest in their products, which leads to increased sales, the manufacturers should be introducing as many new models (and engine choices) in the US market as they can, as soon as they can. The strapped for sales and cash auto manufacturers don't want to spend any capital bringing new products (diesels) to market, so the downward spiral continues.
Well said --Stupid is as stupid does...

houdini1

You mean you guys would rather see small fuel efficient diesels that cut our overall oil use by 50% (conservatively) than to have D3 coming out with self parking systems, louder stereos, and traffic ready nav systems?

ruking1

NAH !!!???

roland3

... I met with the inventor of this amazing injection system Saturday. It has promise of significant gains in efficiency and reduced emissions. It has a wonderful spray pattern accompanied with astounding pressure (160,000 p.s.i.). I understand his explanation that the more complete combustion will result in a drastic lowering of soot, even to the point of not needing a particulate filter; however I am somewhat of the wait and see attitude that he will be able to reduce NOx by a similar margin. You see, NOx is one of Mother Nature's cruel jokes. More heat, almost always produced by better combustion, produces more NOx. In any event, we will not have to wait much longer, he expects to have retro-fit injection kits available in December of this year.

houdini1

Any manufacturers interested?

roland3

... I asked him if he had any offers, he said yes, but would not elaborate. He took this to a tenth annual engine expo in Stuttgart, right in the heart of Bosch and Daimler Mercedes Benz country, a few months back. It's my guess that he has the attention of every major engine and injection manufacturer.

gagrice

Is he the fellow from Australia? Did he mention any vehicle models he will be retrofitting? It would be good to know before you buy a diesel vehicle which will be upgradeable.

roland3

... The Big Three, six liter (nominal) pick-ups and the V-6 Holden/GM gasoline conversion that will require the cylinder heads (at least) to be removed and milled, will be first. Yes, he and the company are from Australia. btw, I am fairly sure there is an American GM version of the Holden V-6.

plekto

The real big change to engines in the next few years, though, will be going to an electronic valve design. Basically you replace the valves with a single electronic actuator. this gets rid of the entire top half of the engine! No timing, no cam, no valves - just one unit that's plugged directly into the injectors and air intake.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/07/camless-engine-may-debut-on-2009-fiat-500-alf- - a-junior/
This is a huge deal. this is the first step - IIRC, there is a company that took this one step further and it's all one "block".

http://home.cogeco.ca/~davebowesevic/
That's a 4-stroke engine. There's literally 2/3 of the parts in a typical engine that aren't required with this sort of design. Tests show a 20%+ increase in mpg and power due to finer control and less friction losses.

Oh - and since there's no top half of the engine, no head gaskets, either - you can build it almost like a 2 stroke engine, then. Just one big bore and a couple of ports/openings.

roland3

... The Fiat MultiAir, release says that there are insurmountable problems with solenoid actuated valves, proven by some of the companies you mention. Their system uses conventional cams, with an ECM controlled hydraulic buffer/chamber attached to a rocker-follower. It uses no throttle blades, relying on the wide variation of cam timing to throttle the engine. They will also be moving this technology into their Diesel line-up. So if the Green Diesel injection lives up to it's promise it will be hard to beat.

blufz1

Just gimmee a proven technology like diesel in a CRV and I will be happy.

plekto

They SAY there are insurmountable problems, but I suspect that it's either patent related or they just lack the actual components. Because this guy is actually doing it in his own garage, no less. Remember, this IS Fiat we're talking about. When I hear GM or Toyota say it's not possible, I might believe them.

http://www.me.sc.edu/research/AARG/Thesis%20Final.pdf
Here is a research paper on this that I found - technical, but ingenious and good reading.

roland3

... Yeah, small company. btw, Bosch just celebrated their fifty millionth common rail system. Oh, it was developed by Fiat with Bosch making hardware. The MultiAir technology has some roots in Common Rail.

roland3

... Here's a few things I've learned about the solenoid actuated valves in the last half dozen years. Keep in mind that potential El Dorado breakthrough in super-conductivity could change everything. So: BMW found that the top RPM was in the seven thou range. No further apparent development. So I am thinking, "so what" that would be great for a Diesel. Then there were quite a few rumblings from Navistar. They even raced up Pikes Peak with one about three years back. Then (suddenly) very quiet. Might be a problem with reliability and when something goes wrong quite a bit of damage.
..
... In any event I don't think we have an argument. Regardless of valve actuation the Green Diesel Corp's injector has great promise. Just a couple more small companies, that you might not seem to trust.

plekto

Quite the contrary. I believe in these small companies. But when I hear a company say "it's not possible" while I can plainly see people even DIYing this in their garages, I know political and marketing BS when I hear it.

Reliability might be an issue, though, but damage isn't, because in a properly designed system, there is no timing belt or chain in addition to no camshaft. If a cylinder stops working, it just stops working. Well, not unless the engineers are total idiots. Since the system is constantly monitored by nature, it would shut off the spark and fuel supply to that cylinder in the case of an impending failure.

roland3

... I am aware of three companies that looked into or worked on solenoid actuated valves., BMW, Fiat and Navistar. I am quite sure there were/are several more, probably even GM and Toyota. I am only aware of one that does not like it (Fiat). It's the thundering silence that has descended over this once ballyhooed technology that has me believing that something is not working, a statement from many companies, not just one. 36 months back I was with you in having high expectations for this tech. Just think of it, making dyno pulls, moving, lift, duration, timing points, and lobe centers, at various loads and RPM's. I now have much anticipation for the Green Diesel Corp's injection. Combustion that complete and clean just intrigues me.

plekto

I think they are looking for an alternative like piezoelectric valves. But for a slower rpm diesel, it would be fantastic. And yes, you will see this in F1 racing as soon as they can manage it, because dropping half of the engine's mass and weight is enormous. Better handling, better speed, braking, and fuel economy.

repoman1

Posted April 6th on automobilemag.com

Takeo Fukui, Honda Motor Co. President says he will not lower the price of the 2010 Insight hybrid in response to Toyota cutting the price of its upcoming 2010 Prius hybrid. He also said a new hybrid powertain is in the works for larger cars that will take place of a clean diesel engine which was originally planned instead.

In a report from Automotive News, Fukui confirmed that the price of the Insight would not change despite Toyota's decision to lower the price of the Prius. "I don't think that would be meaningful to do so," he said. Many thought Honda might lower its price to engage in a hybrid price war with its domestic rival.

Fukui also said Honda has decided not to proceed with its plans to put clean diesel engines in its large cars. He cites the cost of clearing tough emissions regulations in the United States and Japan as the reason. The more cost-effective solution will be a modified or possibly new hybrid drive system which will instead become the future green drivetrain for big vehicles.

Honda has not said when it will begin to offer a hybrid powertrain in its larger vehicles. Meanwhile, the hybrid sales face-off will take place next month when the 2010 Insight (which reached U.S. dealers last month) will take on the 2010 Prius when it goes on sale.

moparbad

quote Reuters-
In the meantime, diesel could rule the day. “Fiat may decide that it’s more cost effective for Chrysler to use Fiat’s 4-cylinder diesel engines instead to meet future CAFE standards,” Omotoso said, referring to the tighter MPG requirements that automakers will have to meet by 2011. “Fiat has one of the most fuel-efficient lineups in Europe and it’s all done with gasoline and diesel engines. No hybrids, no plug-ins. Of course they don’t have anything like the Dodge Ram either, but the point is that there are cheaper solutions to the fuel economy problem.”-end

Would be great if diesels are options in Chrysler cars.

houdini1

If they did that they might end up # 1 in the U.S.

tmak

I for one am for getting the clean diesel engine and I think it can be placed in the truck fleet. However I think that our governments war on carbon burning engines will not allow a diesel to survive in any case for everyday American vehicles that we drive. It sounds cynical but look at the actions of the manufactures Especially Toyota.
If the current state in Washington stays as it is after the the next congressional election I fear new Diesel technology will die on the drawing board. Because the EPA and CAFE standards will destroy most carbon burning engines.

larsb

I know you diesel "fans" are rabid, but even the most optimistic projections show diesel not gaining more than 10% of the US market.

No company would become #1 by flooding the USA with diesel cars.

If that were possible, it would already have been done.

houdini1

Well, you could be right, but that is not the fault of diesel cars. It is the fault of the regulators wanting to maintain the status quo....and keeping us dependent on foreign oil.

Why? I wish I knew. Why else would the EPA recently declare CO2, a naturally occurring gas that plants need to survive, a pollutant? :confuse:

larsb

I think it's more of a combination of:

1. The failed diesel car experiment of the 1970s,
2. The fact that most people consider diesel fuel "for trucks only."
3. The fact that diesel exhaust is very harmful to human health.
4. The fact that carmakers do exhaustive studies on what cars people want, and diesel cars just DO NOT score well in those studies.

The regulation is not hurting at all. All major diesel car makers can put enough technology on the cars to make them clean enough to meet regs.

It's more the attitudes of the US car buying public than anything else.

houdini1

We have had this discussion before so it is pointless.

Fiat may take a fresh enough view of the type of diesels we need and want to make your job as a anti-diesel lobbyist a little more difficult.

ruking1

Well truly it has been the double speak of the ages.

Bio diesel from algae has the capability of being carbon neutral and is all but totally ignored as a fuel source. In fact, photosynthesis EATS C02. IF I can colloquially use the term, SPEWS OXYGEN !!!!!

On the other hand, the hot air campaign to burn less while in reality increasing continuing to burn more, continues......................

larsb

houdini1 says, "....your job as a anti-diesel lobbyist a little more difficult. "

You've missed a few hundred of my posts if you REALLY feel that way about my views on clean diesel cars.

I'm only anti-diesel when it comes to DIRTY diesels. ( As we should all be. )

I'm COMPLETELY pro-diesel when it comes to CLEAN diesels. ( As we should all be. )

houdini1

OK, please let me have your list of "clean diesels" that are available in the U.S. that you are rooting for.

larsb

All of them. Anything certified for sale as new in all 50 states.

The ones I know about:
2009 Audi Q7 TDI (available yet?)
2009 BMW 335d (available yet?)
2009 Mercedes E320 BlueTEC
2009 Mercedes GL320 BlueTEC
2009 Mercedes ML320 BlueTEC
2009 Mercedes R320 BlueTEC
2009 VW Jetta TDI

larsb

Last I heard the Acura diesel was postponed.

gagrice

The VW Touareg TDI V10 and V6 are available in all 50 States. Though you would probably have to order the V10.
BMW X5 35d is also for sale everywhere.

So far the only affordable car for most people is the VW Jetta TDI. The EPA and CARB have effectively blocked the rest of the diesel cars and PU trucks sold in the rest of the World. That includes the supposedly best diesel EVER from Honda. It made it past the EPA with a stick shift but not the automatic. Then Honda is not known for clean emissions. :sick:

larsb

Don't forget the reason for the blocking - they are not clean enough.

If MB and VW can do it, then so should all the other carmakers.

Stop excusing the carmakers and putting all the blame on the regulators. The technology is AVAILABLE to all the carmakers to make their cars clean enough.

The problem is they don't think they can sell enough of them to make it profitable enough.

houdini1

The problem is that the regulators keep raising the bar and few manufacturers want to jump into the mess that this causes.

larsb

Look.

If the carmakers saw potential for enough sales, they WOULD jump through the hoops.

If they thought they could sell a million diesel cars in the USA, then someone would bring that many here.

houdini1

No, you look. That is the only reason that Honda/Acura and probably Toyota canceled their diesel plans for the U.S. They sell plenty of other cars without jumping over a bar that changes annually with no end in sight.

The end result is more oil imports and more emissions for us.

plekto

2. The fact that most people consider diesel fuel "for trucks only."

I *WISH* they would bring a 4 cylinder diesel truck to the U.S. As do a huge number of people, actually. Paying $30K for a whale of a diesel isn't useful, and sales show it. What people who have to haul stuff or want to go off-road desire is a frugal little truck that gets 30-35mpg.

If anyone made a small diesel truck with 4x4, I'd buy it in a second. But nobody has for about two decades. And I'm not buying a 20+ year old truck...

http://www.holden.com.au/vehicles/Colorado/Crew-Cab-Pickup-4x4-LX-TD
This is why GM is failing. It's a Chevy Colorado 4x4. Manual transmission(or auto if you prefer). 3.0L smaller turbo-diesel. 33mpg!
$24K. And it's a crew cab, no less.

GM has the engines. They have the vehicles. But they won't do it.

http://www.ford.com.au/
And neither will Ford. They have a nearly identical in price and options version of the Ranger. 3.0L diesel. ~30mpg.

I just don't want or need a V8 diesel to get around town in. I don't get the disconnect that's happening. Europe and Australia seem to have the right vehicles. But here in the U.S., we get the dumbed-down, worst pieces of junk foisted off on us. The fact that a *US* auto manufacturer treats its own local market like second class hillbillies and simpletons is why I just won't buy anything from them. And you wonder why I don't "care at all"(to put it in a G-rated manner - fill in your own words here) if they die off or not.

How in the world did the birthplace of the automobile and highways end up having the worst market and choices of all? Hardly a week goes by that I don't hear about some amazing vehicle that makes me feel excited. Until I see "Europe only" on it.

If I have the money, I shouldn't have to settle for second-rate technology and old designs that drive like crap. Not when I see the rest of the planet not having to deal with this prejudice. Seriously - I feel like our own auto industry is treating us like trailer trash.

If Chrysler/Fiat wants to kick GM and Ford in the shins and gain REAL market share, bring the same models over that they sell in Europe. Every last one of them. I'm positive that they'll sell every one that they bring over.

http://www.fiat.co.uk/Showroom/#showroom/500c
I bet you we won't get this - no - we'll get only the plain sedan....

EDIT - the 1.2L diesel Fiat 500 gets... 56mpg(US gallons, not U.K.!).
But not for us.

gagrice

The problem is they don't think they can sell enough of them to make it profitable enough.

Not many car makers making a profit with gas cars or hybrids either. I think VW was one of the few showing a profit the last quarter. They are doing very well with their diesels even here in the US blinded by ignorance.

gagrice

If they thought they could sell a million diesel cars in the USA, then someone would bring that many here

You mean like the Prius stacked up at the Ports? You don't want to see the truth so it is futile to give you the facts. The bar was set for diesel cars by the EPA and CARB had someone a lot like you that had a deep seated hatred for all things diesel. He set the rules to eliminate the chance of diesels being sold in CA. Yet the Germans figured out how to beat the regs. The other auto makers were satisfied to go other directions and are going to lose out to those that fight the good fight.

easym1

The car manufacturers will never know if diesel car sales will take-off in North America untill they make them available to all cars. Once people realize that the diesels now are truly different from the diesels of yesteryears, then you could see them change their mind.

I for one who never driven a diesel, would like the chance to drive one if it's available on the car that I want.

I will never underestimate the possibility that the 1st car manufacturer to sell diesels in all their lineups, could capture a large market share in North America.

plekto

Especially if it's in the light truck market. I mean, it's a total no-brainer. Same utility for the job site, just in a smaller and way more frugal package. I talk to a lot of people and they buy their GMC or Dodge because it's the only diesel choice available. But the things are huge - overly so.

Smaller truck, smaller version of the same engine. No reason it wouldn't work. Well, other than they just don't seem to care.