I second the motion! "...a small diesel truck 4 cylinders,diesel ...a frugal little truck that gets 30-35mpg" You said it! I'd buy it, too. Does it exist anywhere in the world? Not that that would do any good here, except that I could be on the look out. thanks for "voicing" just what I was thinking. lindak
Gary, your version of what you see as "truth" is merely a grudge which developed over time into a false belief.
Read my electronic lips: Regulations are not killing the diesel revolution.
Having enough buyers to even HAVE a diesel revolution is what is thwarting the take-over by diesel cars.
Here is my proof:
1. J.D. Power predicts diesel car sales will quadruple by 2015 - which puts them at a whopping 10% of the market. 2. The final, but perhaps the greatest, barrier to diesels in the U.S. is the negative public perception of diesel engines."The consumer never accepted the diesel in the U.S. auto market from a sociability aspect," said Harish Chawla, chief engineer of Ford's diesel program. "For all of their positives, consumers in the U.S. could never look past the fact that diesel engines of the time were smokey, smelly and loud. "There were also durability issues which further hurt the diesel's image and fuel availability at local stations was also a problem. 3. In the United States, it’s a different picture. There, diesel-engine cars can’t seem to get started. They account for only 2 percent of cars and light trucks. “The United States is not yet a classic diesel market,” says Gerd Hagenow, technology team manager at Shell Global Solutions in Hamburg. But that should change. “The European producers are making a major effort to introduce comparable engines in the United States,” Mr. Dudenhöffer says. They will have a lot of convincing to do. According to Evaristo Garcia, general manager of Jato Dynamics, a Detroit-based market-research group, “consumers (in the U.S.) are used to big powerful engines, and it seems diesel became very popular in Europe because of the very small and efficient engines, which are not appealing to U.S. customers.” Whereas in Europe, every filling station offers diesel fuel, the network of diesel-carrying stations in the United States is patchy and sufficient in only a few regions, including California.
I am unable to find any diesel website, diesel newsletter, diesel promotion website, diesel sniffer's club, or anyone else who agrees that it's ONLY regulation problems which are keeping the selection of diesel passenger cars low in the USA.
There is, however, a lot of evidence saying "Americans will not buy diesel cars and that's one of the main reasons they are not ubiquitous in the USA like they are in Europe."
Guys, I'm not anti-diesel, but I'm a realist when it comes to why diesels are not selling like hotcakes in the USA.
There is, however, a lot of evidence saying "Americans will not buy diesel cars and that's one of the main reasons they are not ubiquitous in the USA like they are in Europe."
So I guess you agree with those marketing geniuses at the Detroit 3 who came to the conclusion that small, fuel efficient diesel engines would not sell in the U.S. How's that decision working out for them? Oh yes, they are all now bankrupt!!
Guys, I'm not anti-diesel
Nice to see that you have become a "diesel sniffer".
Actually I would say that regulations are stopping the "diesel revolution", but not necessarily the way that Gary is saying, I think that all the different regulations across the globe are restricting development of a number of technologies, I think it is time to introduce a global standard for emmissions and safety (or that the most two sets of standards one for the "developing world" and one for the "first world"), even if they were all based on the toughest standards in the world this would decrease the costs of development for all companies and make it so they could sell cars around the globe if they wanted to without having to redesign them for a different market), but of course this would make to much sense (and mean nations giving up control of these items) so it will never happen unfortunately.
......I second the motion! "...a small diesel truck 4 cylinders,diesel ...a frugal little truck that gets 30-35mpg" You said it! I'd buy it, too. Does it exist anywhere in the world?
.....there's one in my garage. Been there quite a long spell. All-time best fuel economy was a leisurely trip northern California to the Oregon coast. Calc'd out at about 54 1/2 per gallon of #2. It's like family; even consideration of selling is emotionally trying. The downsides: it's 'dirty' compared to the new Jetta (and slower....a LOT slower).
I am unable to find any diesel website, diesel newsletter, diesel promotion website, diesel sniffer's club, or anyone else who agrees that it's ONLY regulation problems which are keeping the selection of diesel passenger cars low in the USA.
ONLY is a an absolute. I have never said that was the only reason. It is a very large part of the problem. Second good reason is the the Chicken tax on PU trucks. Adding 25% to the sale of a small diesel PU truck would kill any chance of it being sold here. That was just another payback to the Domestic auto makers and UAW. I know you would like to push those of US that support better mileage vehicles into your Hybrid cubicle. It has not happened in places that have a choice. And it will not happen in our closed society either. The rejection of the Prius is a prime example. Their sales are down 61% over last year. They are sitting on lots all over the country with the batteries deteriorating.
And lastly. If diesel is so much more of a health hazard than gas. Why has CA mandated new style pumps for JUST Unleaded Gas. It is because the fumes of raw gas are extremely TOXIC. Not so with diesel.
Follow up article on just how flagrant the mandates from CARB can be. I believe they are all wet on their treatment of diesel vehicle. They will have to decide if they are really serious about cutting CO2 or listening to diesel haters in the agency.
Publication date: 04/01/2009 Publisher: The Heartland Institute
Nearly 100 California gas stations are being forced out of business by a statewide mandate requiring them to implement expensive new equipment to reduce vapor emissions at the pump.
The mandate, issued by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), is known as Phase II of the state’s Enhanced Vapor Recovery program. It requires gas station owners to purchase and install devices to prevent vapors from escaping when customers fill their cars. The mandate takes effect April 1.
$11,000 per Pump
One of every 40 gas stations in the state has informed CARB it will be shutting down its gas pumps due to the high cost of the order.
George Fasching, who has been operating a gas station for 31 years, says the cost of meeting the CARB mandate is more than his business can handle.
“I came to the decision that I was too small a volume operator to continue on with the expenses imposed by the bureaucracy of the state,” Fasching told the Pasadena Star News for a January 27 story.
CARB estimates it will cost $11,000 per pump to comply with the order. A small, four-pump gas station would thus have to spend $44,000 to comply with the new requirements, while larger stations will see costs of more than $100,000.
Unsupported Health Claims
The main target of the order is volatile organic compounds, or VOCs. CARB asserts incremental reductions in VOC emissions are worth the expense of the mandatory new equipment at the pump. Many scientists and health experts disagree.
“It’s clear at this point that CARB is doing something just to be able to say they are doing something,” said Dr. John Dunn, an American Council on Science and Health advisor who practices and teaches emergency medicine at the Carl R. Darnall Army Medical Center. “There is no sound evidence these efforts to reduce small amounts of vapor leakage will have any positive impact on human health.”
CA should disband CARB and quit wasting money on their little power games.
If I can get 21mpg with my 7000 pound 06 Chevy diesel that's still under 30K miles I am sure a little truck can get 40mpg. I believe it was Toyota that had a diesel PU for sale here 15 years ago ... Had a friend that had one ... 400K miles or more and still running great when he wrecked it. Not too fast off the line but it was like the energizer bunnie... on and on and on it went.
I don’t buy this argument that the US is not a viable diesel market; I just don’t see it and VW TDI sales show that to false.
If the cars are not on the shelf then you have no way of knowing if they will sell. Like the state lottery says; if you don’t play, you can’t win.
To the best of my knowledge, every auto maker that has marketed/test marketed a diesel passenger car or SUV has exceeded their sales targets. The Jeep Liberty CRD comes to mind, it had strong sales for 2 years then Chrysler got lazy or cheap and didn’t bother trying to get the engine to comply with new regulations and away it went.
Regardless of what the “surveys” say, facts tend to say they are flawed. I do think the market exsist for diesel passenger cars and until they are offered, no one will really know.
I have always believed that the first domestic car maker that produces a diesel passenger car in the US will win.
..."I have always believed that the first domestic car maker that produces a diesel passenger car in the US will win."...
That might be one of a long list of reasons why the big four GM/Ford/Chrysler/UAW are not "winning".
Indeed the percentage of PASSENGER diesel cars might be indicative of OVER regulation and a misunderstanding of the concept of ZERO: both percentage and volume.
To the best of my knowledge, every auto maker that has marketed/test marketed a diesel passenger car or SUV has exceeded their sales targets. The Jeep Liberty CRD comes to mind, it had strong sales for 2 years then Chrysler got lazy or cheap and didn’t bother trying to get the engine to comply with new regulations and away it went.
I should amend this statement to encompass clean diesel and recent times, i.e. post 2000 MY.
So give Chrysler to FIAT and let them design a good, stylish compact hatchback to be built in the USA using FIAT JTD diesel engines, (just like Ford and GM use elsewhere in the world), and use that as a market entry product on which to build a range and re-build a positive reputation.. FIAT are making some really nice cars over here in Europe from the retro-chic, (but very capable), 500 through to the bigger Lancia saloons. Oh, and Maseratis and Ferraris also but none of them are diesel..............yet. Everyone shouts about VW/Audi but FIAT have just been quietly getting on with it and now we're seeing the results.
Isecond the motion! "...a small diesel truck 4 cylinders,diesel ...a frugal little truck that gets 30-35mpg" You said it! I'd buy it, too. Does it exist anywhere in the world?
Yes it does. Europe is full of 'em and they come from all the usual suspects........Toyota, Misubishi, Ford et al. Can't remember the last time I saw a 4x4 pick-up that wasn't diesel.
Toyota appears to be the market leader with a reputation for indestructible products. Their Hilux comes with either 2.5 ltr or 3.0 ltr 4-cyl diesels giving 120bhp/325Nm or 170bhp/343NM respectively and there is no gasser option. Details here :
All you have written is a further revelation that diesels has been systematically and literally prevented/squeezed out of the US markets. As you so aptly put it, ALL the usual suspects !!! This same usual suspects are crying/singing the New Orleans Blues in the US market when it comes to diesels.
As a snap shot diesels are currently 2% of the passenger vehicle market of 254.2 M.= 5.084 M I have read in passing that 93% are so called "light" diesel trucks (next size up from say Ford 150) So that means that passenger diesels are app 356,000 strong. The math further indicates a passenger diesel percentage of .0014% So if VW adds 63,000 to the population that will put the passenger diesel car % to .00165%
This is far from an expert opinion, but perhaps Fiat will lobby hard to do more diesels to get to 40 mpg vehicles even quicker, as there will ALWAYS be a market for the gas guzzler set (Chrysler lines) , albeit less volume and less market share. I have read in passing that 70% of what Fiat sells world wide is DIESEL.
... Well, we are finally at the end of the road for changing regulations. There is just nowhere else to go. It's my opinion that the only redemption in the current regs is that they are part of the evolution that spells the end of internal combustion. Of course while waiting for the iron to turn to fossils I would like to see a Diesel so clean that it does not even need a particulate trap. Possibly with injection from Green Diesel Corp. There ought to be many trips in the seventy MPG range. This vehicle would be so carbon light it ought to qualify for a mild NOx incentive, that would even help reduce carbon output even further. Or maybe CARB and EPA would start measuring tailpipe volume/output instead of the 35 year mistake of measuring parts per million. I wonder if the green house gas movement had not happened if this would have ever came to light.
It is truly amazing that as much bru ha ha (vilification actually) there are about diesel emissions and so called "dirty diesel" the tail pipe emissions are published in Europe and it is almost better than a state secret in the US. This even starts with RUG/PUG whose 30 ppm goes unpublished. ULSD has been 15 ppm and LESS since Oct 2006. Yet no one makes the connection that RUG/PUG is literally as a min 2x DIRTIER than ULSD !!?? Biodiesel approaches ZERO to 5 ppm, so RUG to PUG is literally 6 x dirtier !!!! This is not even counting LIKE models !!!!
In the case of like models 03 VW Jetta 1.8T- 29 mpg/2.0 29 mpg /1.9 TDI-49 mpg it is an absolute slam dunk no brainer which two emit GREATER green house gases !!! Anybody that doubts the power of matras and their repetition needs to study this travesty.
I second the motion! "...a small diesel truck 4 cylinders,diesel ...a frugal little truck that gets 30-35mpg" You said it! I'd buy it, too. Does it exist anywhere in the world?
Yes it does. Europe is full of 'em and they come from all the usual suspects........Toyota, Misubishi, Ford et al. Can't remember the last time I saw a 4x4 pick-up that wasn't diesel. ***
And, while the ones I posted earlier were V6s from Ford and GM, they also are "smaller" and get 30-35mpg!. Even those would sell very well I bet.
If you can't win in the car market, move to the truck market. But put a bullseye on the Tacoma and similar smaller trucks but offer the smaller diesels as an option. Diesels may not be popular with your average soccer mom, but guys who need a truck for work love them.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1b29d9 There IS talk, though, of Toyota bringing over the diesel Tacoma/Hilux in 2010. I really really hope that they do. I'd buy one so fast they'd have me camping out the day before to get into the showroom. For real.
0-60 in ~10.4 seconds. It's not a screamer, but it's certainly no slug. But at 2x the mpg of a F150...
jkinzel says, "I don’t buy this argument that the US is not a viable diesel market; I just don’t see it and VW TDI sales show that to false."
Well, the carmakers spend a lot of money on market research, so they know better than little old we do.
... What are those of you that helped bring, the already obsolete, SCR-Urea to America, going to tell your grandchildren ? Our own Argonne National Labs have patented technology that does not require this liquid plague to be brought down upon us. I am not talking to Daimler Mercedes Benz, or at least those that were part of this, when it was leading edge, seven to ten years ago, but to all those that know (or will come to find ) that this chemical debacle, has evolved into, ROI for large corporations.
Well, the carmakers spend a lot of money on market research, so they know better than little old we do.
That is a BIG assumption on your part. I agree the automakers spend big bucks on market research. Yet they miss the mark more than they hit it. Our Domestics have struggled to get a hit for at least 30 years. The closest any have come is Ford. GM once the Titan of automakers may not ever have another chance at a hit. Toyota with its failure to predict the market has lost a large, in the $billions, amount of money also. VW by contrast could possibly take over the number one spot in the world auto market by reading the tea leaves correctly.
I would say if Toyota had built a factory for the HiLux diesel instead of the stupid Tundra they would be making money instead of losing right today. That PU may be the number ONE seller world wide. Yet Toyota does not believe we want an economical PU truck in this country. POOR MARKET RESEARCH.
Well, the carmakers spend a lot of money on market research, so they know better than little old we do.
If they know so much, why are they in the toilet?
Pouring money down a research rat hole does not make you smarter. Jeep CRD and VW TDI sales tell a different story. The auto makers need to pull thier heads out of said "hole" and see what is happening around them.
The market is there Lars, but the shelf is empty so it "assumed" there is no market.
Indeed I have always (well since 1986 anyway) wanted a turbo diesel Toyota Landcruiser with manual transmission. Suffice to say that has been a US market pipe dream for @ least 23 years!?
So you can imagine the interest in the 2009 VW Touareg 2 TDI, with a 25 mpg can do easy !!!!!
As some probably know 15-18 mpg is what the current V8 powered TLC gets on a good day, downhill, WITH a stiff wind.... Needless to say 39% better fuel mileage is .... appealing. 22,000 CHEAPER, absolute no brainer !!??
I'd also like to add that Toyota's Hilux(Tacoma) diesel commands 70% of the U.K. non-commercial truck market. It's 22% here in the U.S. according to figures I found online.
Complete no-brainer.
We're not even really expecting a 4 cylinder Tacoma. Just something smaller than a V8.
I also understand that is line with VW goal of 40% diesels for their 2010 MY, they are building an American plant of which they will assemble and build diesels engines and diesel models. link title
The Passat is compared with 3 series BMW.Nissan Maxima, Honda Accord.
2010 will bring the redesigned VW Golf, with 30% targeted TDI sales. link title
The sad part is the Tacoma 4 cylinder gasser PU trucks are gas guzzling and very under powered. That is why they cannot sell them in any market that is given a choice. I know the diesel haters realize that and are afraid we will end up like the EU with mostly diesels. Making their overly complex hybrids worthless boat anchors. Those that have not driven both are clueless to the advantages offered in a smaller diesel engine. With all the past reliability issues to overcome the 2009 Jetta is getting rave reviews by owners. I think VW is headed for a good sales year World Wide. What other automaker can claim that?
I think that part of it may be the fact that they have thousands of their niche Priuses sitting on the dock of the bay...and don't want to be stung again... very short sighted IMO.
Take it easy Mr. All Caps. They are short sighted in respect to not going forward with diesels in the U.S.....because of their lack of ability to predict the future.
Short sighted usually means, at least to me, that someone COULD have foreseen a future event but missed something in making their decision due to lack of due diligence.
I don't think Toyota or GM or Chrysler really missed anything obvious. They were victims of a combination of a few bad business decisions and unfortunate world economic events.
Short sighted usually means, at least to me, that someone COULD have foreseen a future event but missed something in making their decision due to lack of due diligence.
What they are failing to "see" is the pent up demand in the U.S. for small, clean, diesels.
A clear difference of opinion then. The difference being that I believe I am more objective as I don't own a hybrid or diesel while I believe you own a hybrid or did at one time.
Let me see if I can "work" on your opinion for a second.
Questions and Answers:
When has a major company in the USA EVER intentionally denied a group of buyers at the cost of losing a huge profit?
Never?
What kind of shape is the car industry in the USA sitting in right now?
Poor.
What would they say if you told them, "Hey, you can solve all your sales woes by bringing diesel cars and trucks to the USA in large numbers. By doing that, all of a sudden you will be selling hundreds of thousands of cars, magically."??
You think they'd believe you?
You see the farce in that scenario?
If all of a sudden, today, GM and Chrysler and Toyota announce that in 6 months they would have diesel options on all of their most popular models, what would you say would be the amount of the sales increase they would see in month 6? 5%? 10% ? 15%?
There are indeed probably 100,000 people in the USA who are desperately wanting to buy a small diesel truck. But even that is not enough to make it hugely profitable to the carmakers.
There needs to be millions of potential buyers to get them to make the plunge.
The farcical scenario is really of your own making !!! It is also based upon your (following) false assumption/s ...
" That demand does not exist in large enough numbers to make it profitable enough for the carmakers. "...
How soon WE (you actually) forget that is PRECISELY the way US market hybrids started out ???? Honda Civic Hybrid (despite my own preference for it over the Prius) was unfortunately/fortunately a RESOUNDING THUD !!
So for example VW has a strategy of 25% diesel of its total (projected) production/sales (250,000 units) in MY 2009. (62,500 diesel units) In addition they have a 2009 MY SUV, which will of course add to one or both fiqures.
VWA is one of THE few profitable oems (diesel or other wise and/or BOTH).
The issue I'm currently discussing is the issue of whether or not there is sufficient USA demand for diesel passenger vehicles to make it profitable enough for the carmakers to flood the market with diesel passenger cars.
I believe that answer to be No, and I have seen nothing on the web or in the news or in the forums to prove that answer to be wrong.
The issue I'm currently discussing is the issue of whether or not there is sufficient USA demand for diesel passenger vehicles to make it profitable enough for the carmakers to flood the market with diesel passenger cars.
The subject was and has been for 11 years on this thread, Small Diesel PU trucks. Cars are not as needed as high mileage PU trucks. The PU truck choices are horrible in this country unless you like a PU truck that gets 16 MPG around town. And most PU trucks are used in business around town. Now your beloved Toyota promised a high mileage hybrid PU truck and never delivered. They would not need to spend any money at all bringing their diesel PU truck to the USA market. They sell MILLIONS of them World wide. Makes Ford and GM World wide PU truck sales insignificant. I believe the figure is over 75% diesel for the Tacoma PU truck.
And lots of people have predicted this recession caused by flagrant lending practices on home mortgages. And several of us here at Edmund's told you the price of gas would come down below $2 and it did. So your NO ONE comment is BALONEY..
From your article stating what I have said. It is government meddling that has caused the automakers in the US to steer clear of diesels. They don't want to end up with them stacked up because our flaky State and Federal government taxes them out of existence. So they tax and regulate to keep US using more gas in gas guzzling cars. All the time bemoaning how we use too much oil. They are all liars in DC.
Since the advent of the automobile age in the U.S., gasoline has been king of the road. Today upward of 95 percent of passenger cars and light trucks on American roads are powered by gas.
The federal government has done its part to keep it that way by taxing diesel at a rate about 25 percent higher than gasoline. A recent assessment by the American Petroleum Institute, which is an oil industry trade group, found that federal taxes accounted for 24.4 cents per gallon of diesel but only 18.4 cents per gallon of gasoline.
Oh Yes, I forgot, Toyota would have to build them here as the Federal Government has a 25% tariff on foreign built trucks to protect the nearly defunct domestic truck builders.
For every year up until about 2005 or 2006, diesel was always cheaper than gasoline in the USA.
The average diesel shopper did not do research and say, "Hey, diesel TAXES are higher but the COST is lower than gasoline, so I'll stick with gasoline as a tax protest."
Comments
Read my electronic lips: Regulations are not killing the diesel revolution.
Having enough buyers to even HAVE a diesel revolution is what is thwarting the take-over by diesel cars.
Here is my proof:
1. J.D. Power predicts diesel car sales will quadruple by 2015 - which puts them at a whopping 10% of the market.
2. The final, but perhaps the greatest, barrier to diesels in the U.S. is the negative public perception of diesel engines. "The consumer never accepted the diesel in the U.S. auto market from a sociability aspect," said Harish Chawla, chief engineer of Ford's diesel program. "For all of their positives, consumers in the U.S. could never look past the fact that diesel engines of the time were smokey, smelly and loud. "There were also durability issues which further hurt the diesel's image and fuel availability at local stations was also a problem.
3. In the United States, it’s a different picture. There, diesel-engine cars can’t seem to get started. They account for only 2 percent of cars and light trucks. “The United States is not yet a classic diesel market,” says Gerd Hagenow, technology team manager at Shell Global Solutions in Hamburg. But that should change. “The European producers are making a major effort to introduce comparable engines in the United States,” Mr. Dudenhöffer says. They will have a lot of convincing to do. According to Evaristo Garcia, general manager of Jato Dynamics, a Detroit-based market-research group, “consumers (in the U.S.) are used to big powerful engines, and it seems diesel became very popular in Europe because of the very small and efficient engines, which are not appealing to U.S. customers.” Whereas in Europe, every filling station offers diesel fuel, the network of diesel-carrying stations in the United States is patchy and sufficient in only a few regions, including California.
I am unable to find any diesel website, diesel newsletter, diesel promotion website, diesel sniffer's club, or anyone else who agrees that it's ONLY regulation problems which are keeping the selection of diesel passenger cars low in the USA.
There is, however, a lot of evidence saying "Americans will not buy diesel cars and that's one of the main reasons they are not ubiquitous in the USA like they are in Europe."
Guys, I'm not anti-diesel, but I'm a realist when it comes to why diesels are not selling like hotcakes in the USA.
And it's NOT the EPA which is the problem.
So I guess you agree with those marketing geniuses at the Detroit 3 who came to the conclusion that small, fuel efficient diesel engines would not sell in the U.S. How's that decision working out for them? Oh yes, they are all now bankrupt!!
Guys, I'm not anti-diesel
Nice to see that you have become a "diesel sniffer".
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Scott
.....there's one in my garage. Been there quite a long spell. All-time best fuel economy was a leisurely trip northern California to the Oregon coast. Calc'd out at about 54 1/2 per gallon of #2. It's like family; even consideration of selling is emotionally trying. The downsides: it's 'dirty' compared to the new Jetta (and slower....a LOT slower).
all the best from the bronze age, ez..........
ONLY is a an absolute. I have never said that was the only reason. It is a very large part of the problem. Second good reason is the the Chicken tax on PU trucks. Adding 25% to the sale of a small diesel PU truck would kill any chance of it being sold here. That was just another payback to the Domestic auto makers and UAW. I know you would like to push those of US that support better mileage vehicles into your Hybrid cubicle. It has not happened in places that have a choice. And it will not happen in our closed society either. The rejection of the Prius is a prime example. Their sales are down 61% over last year. They are sitting on lots all over the country with the batteries deteriorating.
And lastly. If diesel is so much more of a health hazard than gas. Why has CA mandated new style pumps for JUST Unleaded Gas. It is because the fumes of raw gas are extremely TOXIC. Not so with diesel.
I love the smell of Diesel in the morning.
Publication date: 04/01/2009
Publisher: The Heartland Institute
Nearly 100 California gas stations are being forced out of business by a statewide mandate requiring them to implement expensive new equipment to reduce vapor emissions at the pump.
The mandate, issued by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), is known as Phase II of the state’s Enhanced Vapor Recovery program. It requires gas station owners to purchase and install devices to prevent vapors from escaping when customers fill their cars. The mandate takes effect April 1.
$11,000 per Pump
One of every 40 gas stations in the state has informed CARB it will be shutting down its gas pumps due to the high cost of the order.
George Fasching, who has been operating a gas station for 31 years, says the cost of meeting the CARB mandate is more than his business can handle.
“I came to the decision that I was too small a volume operator to continue on with the expenses imposed by the bureaucracy of the state,” Fasching told the Pasadena Star News for a January 27 story.
CARB estimates it will cost $11,000 per pump to comply with the order. A small, four-pump gas station would thus have to spend $44,000 to comply with the new requirements, while larger stations will see costs of more than $100,000.
Unsupported Health Claims
The main target of the order is volatile organic compounds, or VOCs. CARB asserts incremental reductions in VOC emissions are worth the expense of the mandatory new equipment at the pump. Many scientists and health experts disagree.
“It’s clear at this point that CARB is doing something just to be able to say they are doing something,” said Dr. John Dunn, an American Council on Science and Health advisor who practices and teaches emergency medicine at the Carl R. Darnall Army Medical Center. “There is no sound evidence these efforts to reduce small amounts of vapor leakage will have any positive impact on human health.”
CA should disband CARB and quit wasting money on their little power games.
If the cars are not on the shelf then you have no way of knowing if they will sell. Like the state lottery says; if you don’t play, you can’t win.
To the best of my knowledge, every auto maker that has marketed/test marketed a diesel passenger car or SUV has exceeded their sales targets. The Jeep Liberty CRD comes to mind, it had strong sales for 2 years then Chrysler got lazy or cheap and didn’t bother trying to get the engine to comply with new regulations and away it went.
Regardless of what the “surveys” say, facts tend to say they are flawed. I do think the market exsist for diesel passenger cars and until they are offered, no one will really know.
I have always believed that the first domestic car maker that produces a diesel passenger car in the US will win.
That might be one of a long list of reasons why the big four GM/Ford/Chrysler/UAW are not "winning".
Indeed the percentage of PASSENGER diesel cars might be indicative of OVER regulation and a misunderstanding of the concept of ZERO: both percentage and volume.
To the best of my knowledge, every auto maker that has marketed/test marketed a diesel passenger car or SUV has exceeded their sales targets. The Jeep Liberty CRD comes to mind, it had strong sales for 2 years then Chrysler got lazy or cheap and didn’t bother trying to get the engine to comply with new regulations and away it went.
I should amend this statement to encompass clean diesel and recent times, i.e. post 2000 MY.
Yes it does. Europe is full of 'em and they come from all the usual suspects........Toyota, Misubishi, Ford et al. Can't remember the last time I saw a 4x4 pick-up that wasn't diesel.
Toyota appears to be the market leader with a reputation for indestructible products. Their Hilux comes with either 2.5 ltr or 3.0 ltr 4-cyl diesels giving 120bhp/325Nm or 170bhp/343NM respectively and there is no gasser option. Details here :
Toyota Hilux UK
As a snap shot diesels are currently 2% of the passenger vehicle market of 254.2 M.= 5.084 M I have read in passing that 93% are so called "light" diesel trucks (next size up from say Ford 150) So that means that passenger diesels are app 356,000 strong. The math further indicates a passenger diesel percentage of .0014% So if VW adds 63,000 to the population that will put the passenger diesel car % to .00165%
This is far from an expert opinion, but perhaps Fiat will lobby hard to do more diesels to get to 40 mpg vehicles even quicker, as there will ALWAYS be a market for the gas guzzler set (Chrysler lines) , albeit less volume and less market share. I have read in passing that 70% of what Fiat sells world wide is DIESEL.
In the case of like models 03 VW Jetta 1.8T- 29 mpg/2.0 29 mpg /1.9 TDI-49 mpg it is an absolute slam dunk no brainer which two emit GREATER green house gases !!! Anybody that doubts the power of matras and their repetition needs to study this travesty.
Yes it does. Europe is full of 'em and they come from all the usual suspects........Toyota, Misubishi, Ford et al. Can't remember the last time I saw a 4x4 pick-up that wasn't diesel.
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And, while the ones I posted earlier were V6s from Ford and GM, they also are "smaller" and get 30-35mpg!. Even those would sell very well I bet.
If you can't win in the car market, move to the truck market. But put a bullseye on the Tacoma and similar smaller trucks but offer the smaller diesels as an option. Diesels may not be popular with your average soccer mom, but guys who need a truck for work love them.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1b29d9
There IS talk, though, of Toyota bringing over the diesel Tacoma/Hilux in 2010. I really really hope that they do. I'd buy one so fast they'd have me camping out the day before to get into the showroom. For real.
0-60 in ~10.4 seconds. It's not a screamer, but it's certainly no slug. But at 2x the mpg of a F150...
Well, the carmakers spend a lot of money on market research, so they know better than little old we do.
That is a BIG assumption on your part. I agree the automakers spend big bucks on market research. Yet they miss the mark more than they hit it. Our Domestics have struggled to get a hit for at least 30 years. The closest any have come is Ford. GM once the Titan of automakers may not ever have another chance at a hit. Toyota with its failure to predict the market has lost a large, in the $billions, amount of money also. VW by contrast could possibly take over the number one spot in the world auto market by reading the tea leaves correctly.
I would say if Toyota had built a factory for the HiLux diesel instead of the stupid Tundra they would be making money instead of losing right today. That PU may be the number ONE seller world wide. Yet Toyota does not believe we want an economical PU truck in this country. POOR MARKET RESEARCH.
If they know so much, why are they in the toilet?
Pouring money down a research rat hole does not make you smarter. Jeep CRD and VW TDI sales tell a different story. The auto makers need to pull thier heads out of said "hole" and see what is happening around them.
The market is there Lars, but the shelf is empty so it "assumed" there is no market.
So you can imagine the interest in the 2009 VW Touareg 2 TDI, with a 25 mpg can do easy !!!!!
As some probably know 15-18 mpg is what the current V8 powered TLC gets on a good day, downhill, WITH a stiff wind.... Needless to say 39% better fuel mileage is .... appealing. 22,000 CHEAPER, absolute no brainer !!??
Complete no-brainer.
We're not even really expecting a 4 cylinder Tacoma. Just something smaller than a V8.
The Passat is compared with 3 series BMW.Nissan Maxima, Honda Accord.
2010 will bring the redesigned VW Golf, with 30% targeted TDI sales. link title
Not so many people are buying cars these days - didja notice that?
That's because they are not going to spend hundreds of millions on a vehicle that sells MAYBE 15,000 trucks a year in this country.
THAT'S smart marketing.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
No one saw the depth of the economic slowdown ahead of time. NO ONE.
And no one saw the unexpected drop in gas prices from last year to this. NO ONE.
You can't expect them to be futurists with crystal balls !!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I don't think Toyota or GM or Chrysler really missed anything obvious. They were victims of a combination of a few bad business decisions and unfortunate world economic events.
What they are failing to "see" is the pent up demand in the U.S. for small, clean, diesels.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That's why it's not being met.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Questions and Answers:
When has a major company in the USA EVER intentionally denied a group of buyers at the cost of losing a huge profit?
Never?
What kind of shape is the car industry in the USA sitting in right now?
Poor.
What would they say if you told them, "Hey, you can solve all your sales woes by bringing diesel cars and trucks to the USA in large numbers. By doing that, all of a sudden you will be selling hundreds of thousands of cars, magically."??
You think they'd believe you?
You see the farce in that scenario?
If all of a sudden, today, GM and Chrysler and Toyota announce that in 6 months they would have diesel options on all of their most popular models, what would you say would be the amount of the sales increase they would see in month 6? 5%? 10% ? 15%?
There are indeed probably 100,000 people in the USA who are desperately wanting to buy a small diesel truck. But even that is not enough to make it hugely profitable to the carmakers.
There needs to be millions of potential buyers to get them to make the plunge.
The farcical scenario is really of your own making !!! It is also based upon your (following) false assumption/s ...
" That demand does not exist in large enough numbers to make it profitable enough for the carmakers. "...
How soon WE (you actually) forget that is PRECISELY the way US market hybrids started out ???? Honda Civic Hybrid (despite my own preference for it over the Prius) was unfortunately/fortunately a RESOUNDING THUD !!
So for example VW has a strategy of 25% diesel of its total (projected) production/sales (250,000 units) in MY 2009. (62,500 diesel units) In addition they have a 2009 MY SUV, which will of course add to one or both fiqures.
VWA is one of THE few profitable oems (diesel or other wise and/or BOTH).
I believe that answer to be No, and I have seen nothing on the web or in the news or in the forums to prove that answer to be wrong.
And what facts am I ignoring?
Enlighten me. That's what I'm here for.
The reason you see so fewer diesel cars in the U.S., though, is more of a choice by automakers than the product of a decree by regulators on either side of the Atlantic.
A choice of the Automakers.
The subject was and has been for 11 years on this thread, Small Diesel PU trucks. Cars are not as needed as high mileage PU trucks. The PU truck choices are horrible in this country unless you like a PU truck that gets 16 MPG around town. And most PU trucks are used in business around town. Now your beloved Toyota promised a high mileage hybrid PU truck and never delivered. They would not need to spend any money at all bringing their diesel PU truck to the USA market. They sell MILLIONS of them World wide. Makes Ford and GM World wide PU truck sales insignificant. I believe the figure is over 75% diesel for the Tacoma PU truck.
And lots of people have predicted this recession caused by flagrant lending practices on home mortgages. And several of us here at Edmund's told you the price of gas would come down below $2 and it did. So your NO ONE comment is BALONEY..
Since the advent of the automobile age in the U.S., gasoline has been king of the road. Today upward of 95 percent of passenger cars and light trucks on American roads are powered by gas.
The federal government has done its part to keep it that way by taxing diesel at a rate about 25 percent higher than gasoline. A recent assessment by the American Petroleum Institute, which is an oil industry trade group, found that federal taxes accounted for 24.4 cents per gallon of diesel but only 18.4 cents per gallon of gasoline.
That has nothing to do with it.
For every year up until about 2005 or 2006, diesel was always cheaper than gasoline in the USA.
The average diesel shopper did not do research and say, "Hey, diesel TAXES are higher but the COST is lower than gasoline, so I'll stick with gasoline as a tax protest."
You see how that sounds?