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Diesels in the News

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Since this does not have much directly to do with diesel, you might want to look at the link in msg #3850 in the www.Edmunds.com thread "Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3". It is about the actual numbers Toyota has posted.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It could be surmised that Toyota over built and VW was much wiser with the projected sales. Many forget the the USA is only part of the market and a diminishing part as is Japan. China is close to 10 years ahead of the projected passing of the USA in auto sales. They cannot give the Prius away in China. Just not enough geeks wanting an overly complex poor handling vehicle.

    In China, Toyota cuts price of Prius by 8% due to slowing sales

    by Lascelles Linton on Mar 7th 2008 at 1:27PM

    The Prius is not doing well in China. According to Gasgoo.com, Toyota sold 2,152 Priuses in 2006 but the number dropped to 414 in 2007.


    Toyota has put all its marbles into the wrong markets. The US buyer is fickle. And the meager Prius sales when gas is cheap, attests to my belief. The Prius is down 65% selling below invoice. Also the 2009 owner reviews have dropped down to 8.8 rating from a high of 9.5. Here is an example of people being honest about the Prius.

    My prius has 10000 miles on it and I average no higher than 36mpg and only 25mpg in the winter. The fuel gauge reads no gas left but when I fill up it only takes 7 gallons to fill its 11.9 gallon tank. The engine is slow, loud, and noisy. For a $30,000 car I expected more. For an extra $5,000 my Subaru Tribeca gets 25mpg highway, power and heated seats, sunroof, AWD, 6 cylinder engine and better safety rating.


    VW has passed up Toyota ahead of plans World wide. They are looking at the long haul, where Toyota was shortsighted with their monstrous ugly Tundra/Sequoia/Landcruiser debacle.

    Volkswagen expects China to overtake Germany as its biggest market this year, the company's chief executive said yesterday.

    "I take the Chinese market as our second home market. My estimation is that Volkswagen's sales in China will overtake that of Germany's this year," said Martin Winterkorn, CEO of Volkswagen AG.

    Last month, the German carmaker sold 112,466 cars in China, breaching for the first time the 100,000-unit mark for single month sales.

    All three locally produced brands - Volkswagen, Audi and Skoda - recorded their strongest sales in March. The company said it sold 92,969 Volkswagens, 11,848 Audis and 7,610 Skodas in the country last month.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."VW has passed up Toyota ahead of plans World wide. They are looking at the long haul, where Toyota was shortsighted with their monstrous ugly Tundra/Sequoia/Landcruiser debacle."...

    I have liked the green companys' ( Toyota) Landcruiser for a little more than 3 decades approaching 4 decades. During that time, I have always wanted a diesel. (6 speed manual also) However it was obvious from almost 4 decades ago, the diesel was not coming to the US market.

    FF to 2009,... still no turbo diesel TLC.... :lemon: Lo and behold VW puts a 2009 TURBO DIESEL Touareg 2 on the US market ! So @ minus - 22,000 (MSRP), this would be a no brainer, if I wanted/needed an SUV !! 67% better fuel mileage can be seen as a plus + !! (15 mpg vs 25 mpg)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Lo and behold VW puts a 2009 TURBO DIESEL Touareg 2 on the US market ! So minus - 22,000 (MSRP), this would be a no brainer, if I wanted/needed an SUV !! 67% better fuel mileage can be seen as a plus + !! (15 mpg vs 25 mpg)

    I have little doubt the Touareg TDI will be able to get 30 MPG on the highway. That same vehicle in the UK is rated 34.9 MPG Imperial gallons. It will tow over 7700 lbs nearly as much as the Land Cruiser/Sequoia that will be lucky to get the rated 18 MPG on the highway. I like the looks of the Touareg better than the X5 and ML320 CDI. I need to make a decision as I think the used prices on my 2007 Sequoia may be peaking. In the whole USA there are only 2 Limited 4X4 like my low mileage models. Both over $50k. About $10k more than I paid new. Time to pounce. They are on the other side of the continent also. There may be a new diesel SUV in my garage sooner than I thought.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    They cannot give the Prius away in China. Just not enough geeks wanting an overly complex poor handling vehicle.

    My bet is that most, if not all, the geeks in the U.S. have also bought if they are going to. No one left to buy these things.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."They cannot give the Prius away in China. Just not enough geeks wanting an overly complex poor handling vehicle.

    My bet is that most, if not all, the geeks in the U.S. have also bought if they are going to. No one left to buy these things. "...

    Let's see, so we have established that democrats do not buy (in any profitable volumes or percentages) American PU/SUV's. (guzzlers). They haven't bought American CARS. As you have so pointed out, haven't in 10 years bought gasser/ hybrids in any profitable numbers. We have Unions sanctioned by Congress (who primarily vote... democratic) with the aid of management or vice versa have taken the big 3 to the brink..... and they wonder why the big three have feet on banana peels and the other feet in the grave..... AND need multiple bail outs !!????
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    I think that since Obama gave Chrysler to the union and Fiat, many people will be reluctant to buy a Chrysler product. I know I would...unless they start producing quality, affordable small diesels.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    " I think that since Obama gave Chrysler to the union and Fiat, many people will be reluctant to buy a Chrysler product. I know I would...unless they start producing quality, affordable small diesels. "...

    Nothing like looking the enemy DEAD in the eyes, literally nose to nose !!?? (in the mirror?) ;) SCARY indeed?

    Indeed this might give doing quality, affordable small diesels its toe hold in the US. Not being privy to the secret deals, this is a SWAG on my part.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    If we could just round up the whole of the current U.K. government and sink them in Boston harbour i think we'd probably stump up for their airfares.............and 1st Class at that !

    Over here it seems to be a close call as to whether motorists or terrorists are higher on the government hate list...............but if they do away with us, (the motorists, not the others), their tax revenues take an enormous beating so I guess they'll just keep on milking us in the name of "Saving the Environment".

    Trying to be vaguely on-topic though, diesels are still best sellers except in the small hatchback market where they make least sense as those cars generally only see 5k miles, or so, per year.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    How do Prius sales in China have a sliver of an iota of anything at all to do with Diesels In The News?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The context was already explained in msg #7635, starting @ the 2nd sentence.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    IF the hottest and potentially BIGGEST market (China) on the planet are NOT buying hybrids in any numbers and percentages to finally make them profitable, (after what 10-15 years of sales?) let alone KEEP them profitable, and the (declining by Congress, design, policy, execution and punishment) markets to whom the hybrids were originally targeted (Japan: then US) are ALSO not, THEN it begs the question: whom?

    Out of the gate, FIAT will have access to a declining (16-17 M MY sales to 2009 projected 9.6 to 11.4 M) , but additional US (gasser) market.

    IF it is indeed Fiat's intention to sell fuel efficient diesels in the US market, it will have to start with the Congress. Preliminary indications are that this is NOT so. But, that does not necessarilyt make it NOT so! Congress (if the concept is passed) will then have to fund for the bureaucratization necessary to begin to make this happen. They will undoubtedly fight with TBD new owners, the UAW being one of them. (35% owner I have read in passing)

    Meanwhile Cummins (OEM "independent" turbo diesel vendor ) is getting all dress up with NO place now to go, unless they like giving turbo diesel power plants to bankrupt companies like: Dodge.

    (Cummins is the premier world wide producer of diesel engines in America, has built a turbo diesel engine plant to produce 1 series/1500 series light truck adaptable to large, car engines.)

    Regardless, it would appear VW has 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012. 2013, 2014 and possibly as long as 2015 (7 years) to get as many TDI's on the market as they profitably can, with almost NO diesel competition.

    VW's Chattanooga, Tennessee plant has already targeted 30% diesels of its future 2011 total output. (see past msg #7633 for links, or google for oneself)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."A Step on the Way to Electric
    In the next few years, automakers will have much more than fuel prices driving their lineup decisions. Already, tighter emissions controls and corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standards loom large, especially for struggling companies. Take the new Chrysler-Fiat tie-up. It faces the U.S. mandate to achieve an average 30.2 mpg across all of its passenger vehicles, starting with 2011 models. A minimum 35 mpg fleet average awaits for 2020. According to J.D. Power & Associates powertrain analyst Mike Omotoso, Chrysler and Fiat are likely to pick the lowest hanging fruit—Fiat's existing 4-cylinder, highly efficient diesel engines—to meet those requirements. "...

    link title
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We now know the Tiguan exists with the 2.0L TDI. Will they make it to the third world here in the US of A? I would consider downsizing to the Tiguan TDI.

    image
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Tiguan did not meet U.S. emissions when tested due to greater weight compared to Golf/Jetta and there was concern about cost.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I probably would not be happy with a little econobox like the Tiguan. The Touareg is more my minimum size for making trips. It is hard to imagine how the engine could pass emissions in the Sportwagen and not the Tiguan. I would really like the Audi Allroad with that engine. The dealer had no info on it being sold here. We are destined to gas guzzlers or junky hybrids it would seem.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    In Europe, the 2.0 TDi Tiguan is rated at 189gm CO2 whilst the 2.0 TDi Passat is rated at 153gm CO2. Two possibilities : a) the Tiguan motor might be the old 2.0 TDi whilst the Passat gets the 2.0 TDi CR engine and b) the 4WD obviously doesn't help any. So, a combination of "old" tech and 4WD does it no favours.

    May explain why we don't see a lot of Tiguans on U.K. roads, (at least, not in my part of the islands).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What is the most popular diesel SUV that you see?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    When the start selling the first "junky hybrid" please let me know so I can stay away from it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I figured that would wake you up behind your desk. As a hybrid, my GMC hybrid PU truck was nothing to brag about. I don't think GM has a hybrid worth bragging about.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    This is probably known news:

    Honda changes course and switches from diesel back to hybrid
    by Sam Abuelsamid on Apr 3rd 2009 at 3:10PM

    link title

    Meanwhile across the pond...

    Honda Committed to Diesel Power for Europe

    link title
  • coontie66coontie66 Member Posts: 110
    PHOOOEY
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    but... I just read in passing that President Obama just announced that 35.5 mpg will be the "NEW" 2016 target. Anybody care to comment? It is a monumentally HUGE slippage, but billed as a HUGE PLUS !!!!

    It would appear the (now old news) "new" 2012 35 mpg target has been slipped a minimum of 4 years with the compromise being .5 mpg @ the 4th year. Of course it will be interesting to see what the (normally - MINUS) defacto's will wind up being.....

    Once again it seems that passenger diesel cars are way early to the par TAY. The 2003 VW Jetta TDI will be 13 years old in 2016 and @ 49 mpg have HAD 38% better fuel mileage!!! The 2009 VW Jetta TDI will be 7 years old and have had 13% better fuel mileage.

    Indeed first oem to put a 35.5 mpg SUV to the market will be literally decades ahead of the competition.

    link title
  • yesdiesel1yesdiesel1 Member Posts: 23
    I'd trade my Escape today!
  • yesdiesel1yesdiesel1 Member Posts: 23
    This reminds me of the article in today's Minneapolis Star and Sickle re Obama's new MPG order.The article noted that only six cars now on the market that met the 35.5 MPG where all hybrids? With no mention of any of the VW TDI'S
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The range of the 2003 VW Jetta TDI (in 2016 this will be 13/14 years old) has been 44 to 62 mpg. normal commute of 48-52 mpg on the NATIONS 2nd crappiest ROADS (as rated by transportations experts with LA LA lands freeways being numba ONE, both in commute and conditions).

    The range of the 2009 Jetta TDI (in 2016, this will be 7/8 years old) has been more limited, but 39-45 mpg,(55% more hp and52% more torque) normal commute of 40-42 mpg.

    So even at THE worst, they are 24% to 10% better, and at its best 75% to 27% better, than the 2016 FORWARD 35.5 mpg standards

    I guess this is a long way of saying it is time to buy that Ford product that gets 22 mpg !!?? That twin turbo (gasser) V-6 Lincoln with 350 hp and 350 # ft of torque.... ;)

    Actually it is time for that 285-350 hp and 400# ft to 800# ft of torque twin turbo V8 DIESEL !!! (35.5 mpg)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    With no mention of any of the VW TDI'S

    No big surprise there. He is just a talking head puppet for the Eco Weenies running the show. None of the Made in USA hybrids will meet the 35.5 MPG mandate. The 20 Jetta TDI owners posting on the EPA site are averaging over 40 MPG combined. Well over the 33 MPG EPA estimate. CA and the oil companies are anti diesel. Makes it a tough sell.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Burning more gasoline while professing to burn less is still the policy, and true to the old policy,... it has not changed !!! It basically got @ least a 4 year extension !!

    RUG to PUG continues to be 30 ppm sulfur, while Oct 2006 saw D2 go to 15 ppm and less.

    The very same folks are trying to make ZERO (0) PPM bio diesel almost a boutique alternative fuel with their documented no underground storage till "they test it for 15 years" ruling. Try putting an above ground tank of any of those combustible liquids in an urban area!!!?? When pigs fly comes to mind. Yet bio diesel "bio de-grades" better and faster than ANY RUG to PUG that happens to leak in current underground tanks (aka re mediation is faster, cheaper, better,)
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Has anyone been looking at the price of diesel fuel versus gasoline? In many places diesel is less expensive than RUG. Where I generally buy my fuel, diesel is six cents per gallon less than RUG.

    In a few weeks, my wife and I will be driving to Florida via I-95. At the Love's truck stops which we use, diesel is is anywhere from ten cents to twenty-one cents less per gallon than RUG.

    As to the Tiguan, it looks like an older Subaru Forester,
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gas just recently bounded up past diesel nationwide.

    Chart:

    image

    Springtime Transitions

    May is a time of transition as days get warmer, swimming pools open, and new graduates get ready to head out into the world. It is also a time of transition for U.S. fuel markets, as gasoline suppliers prepare for summer driving. This year, May has already brought back the traditional—but lapsed—spring transition in which the average price of regular gasoline in the United States rises above the price of diesel fuel.

    On May 11, the U.S. average retail price for regular gasoline reached $2.24 per gallon, surpassing the average diesel fuel price of $2.22. The crossing of the price paths for gasoline and diesel was once a regular rite of spring: gasoline prices rising for the high-demand summer driving season, while distillate fuel prices, including diesel and heating oil, falling from their highs in the cold of winter. This pattern had begun to break down in 2005, when diesel prices exceeded gasoline prices nearly the entire year (with the exception of a few weeks surrounding Hurricane Katrina). In 2006, gasoline and diesel prices remained essentially at parity for most of April through July, after which diesel commanded a notable premium. In 2007, the pattern returned, with gasoline rising strongly above diesel from late April to late July. Last year, diesel climbed to much higher levels than gasoline, despite gasoline breaking $4 per gallon. May 11 of this year marks the first time since July 23, 2007 that regular gasoline has cost more at the pump, on average, than diesel fuel.

    Over the past few years, strong growth in distillate demand globally broke the traditional pattern of diesel and gasoline prices. Distillate demand growth over the last 5 years was boosted by two factors. A strong world economy put more upward pressure on distillate demand than on gasoline, and Europe’s policy-driven shift away from gasoline to distillate fuel in its light duty vehicles increased demand for diesel while reducing gasoline.

    Shorter-term factors also affect the price relationship between gasoline and diesel. As the economy weakened, the current economic slowdown affected distillates more than gasoline, because distillate demand is largely made up of diesel fuel for trucks, trains, and ships to move goods and materials, while gasoline demand is used mainly in light duty personal cars and trucks. In fact, U.S. distillate demand fell by 6.1 percent in 2008, while gasoline dropped by 3.5 percent.

    Diesel and gasoline prices have been converging throughout the first part of 2009. At the end of December 2008, gasoline prices bottomed at $1.61, the lowest price in nearly 5 years. By the first week in May, they had risen 47 cents to $2.08 per gallon. Crude oil prices explain some of this increase: between the end of 2008 and the first week in May, crude oil prices rose about $16 per barrel, or 38 cents per gallon. Since wholesale gasoline prices were near or even below the price of some crude oils at the end of 2008, gasoline prices were expected to increase more than crude oil prices.

    More recently, gasoline price increases have been driven by the more traditional spring transition leading up to the Memorial Day weekend, the traditional start of the peak summer driving season. The average U.S. price for regular gasoline rose another 23 cents over the past two weeks, reaching $2.31 per gallon on May 18. Crude oil prices have contributed in some measure to this increase as well: from May 1 through May 15, crude prices increased $7 per barrel, or 18 cents per gallon.

    Although crude oil prices are likely to remain a major influence over gasoline prices this summer, the seasonal increase in gasoline demand during the peak driving season, on top of potential underlying demand recovery, appears to be influencing the price at the pump. At the same time, strong supply availability from refiners now running at low utilizations in both Europe and the U.S. is likely to moderate gasoline price increases this summer. In any case, both gasoline and diesel fuel prices will likely stay well below their summer 2008 levels, making this year’s spring transition less dramatic than the last.


    From this page, updated weekly on Wednesday afternoons:

    TWIP
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Corner store prices.

    RUG $ 2.53

    PUG $ 2.79

    D2 $ 2.35

    VW 2003 2.0, RUG- 29 mpg/2.53 = .0872 cents
    VW 2003 1.8 T PUG- 29mpg/2.79 = .096 cents
    VW 2003 1.9 TDI D2- 49 mpg/2.35 = .048 cents

    At the above prices and consumption*, RUG is 82% more !!?? PUG is 100% more than diesel !!??

    Many more folks both percentage and volume drive cars that require PUG. than the 2% of passenger diesel car fleet.

    (* per mile driven and like models obviously)
  • mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    Yesterday the Mobil station near my house (SF Valley in Los Angeles) had D2 at $2.39 and RUG at $2.59. Looks like it's time for a 2009 Jetta TDI while their still going for $1,000 under invoice at the local VW dealer.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    At the above prices and consumption*, RUG is 82% more !!?? PUG is 100% more than diesel !!??

    Not only that, but you are using almost twice as much fuel (oil) with gas as opposed to diesel !!

    Of course we have to keep sending our money over seas to the people who want to do us harm. Unbelievable !

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    To add to your points," winterized " fuel ( I noticed on a Honda Civic) gets app -2 mpg (worse) due solely to this variable. This is app -5.3% (less).This can range from 3-6 months (region specific) or from 25 to 50% of the total years mileage. So in fact you USE 5.3% MORE. (per mile driven)

    D2 on the other hand, experienced par (no loss, no gain) due solely to this variable and its modifying variable: duration..

    And then of course.... SURPRISE SURPRISE... things change...

    link title

    What most folks ignore is D-2 's structural 20-40% fuel advantage. (over like models)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I follow the synthetic oil thread, so this "indirect" but in my case direct diesel benefit also popped up at me.

    Most gasser owners are conditioned to run 3,000-5,000 mile oil change intervals (the over all tie in is multiply this by the passenger vehicle fleet of 254.1 M minus - 2% of the diesel passenger vehicle fleet) Gasser oil consumption can range from 1 qt per 1,000 miles to 1 qt per 5,000 miles. This range is seen as pretty normal by most.

    On the other hand, I am running a diesel @ 25,000 mile oil change intervals. The historical consumption (over 118,000 miles) has been app 1/2 qt per 20,000 to 25,000 miles. Again the nexus is to figure out the difference: savings/overage and * by 254.1 M passenger vehicles. I also use one filter per OCI for further "savings"
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    The price disparity at the place I purchase diesel fuel is now eighteen cents per gallon in favor of diesel fuel.

    Later this year, my wife and I will be driving to Florida. Diesel is anywhere from nine to sixteen cents less per gallon along I-95 at the Love's truck stops except in Florida where diesel is two cents more per gallon than gasoline. Jacksonville diesel prices are pretty good at about twenty cents difference in price in favor of diesel over RUG.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    One of the real beauties of a diesel vehicle is the added range gives you the option to pick and choose fuel stops. I remember pushing my Passat TDI to 700 miles so I could get ULSD from a BP/ARCO station. In 2005 Oregon was still selling high sulfur diesel. I wanted the stuff sold only in CA at the time. Kind of Ironic. CA is first in good low sulfur diesel and they have the lowest quality gas for good mileage. YMMV :confuse:

    Diesel is at least 10 cents per gallon cheaper here than RUG.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Slow news day, but the "northern" spread here is .16 to .18 cents (with diesel being cheaper)

    VW Jetta's

    2.0, 29 mpg, 1.8T, 29 mpg, TDI, 49 mpg

    RUG $ 2.75/29 mpg = .0948 cents per mile driven

    PUG $ 2.95/29 mpg = .102 cents per mile driven

    D2 $ 2.59/49 mpg = .053 cents per mile driven

    Respectively, (per mile driven) RUG to PUG is 79% / 92.5% over D2.

    Range is another interesting discussion as the tanks are 14.5 gals. So with .5 gal left in the tank (hopefully for obvious reasons), 406 miles, 406 miles, 686 miles respectively.

    This however is not the bad/good news,... depending on how one looks at it. @ almost close to 4 hours (3.75 actually) steady I have gone most of the length from San Jose CA to Santa Monica, CA fueled on Wilshire Blvd, giving 50 mpg. I swag at the same times, the gassers would get 25 mpg respectively. Needless to say the per mile driven cost goes up: a minimum of 33% !!??

    Now I can do the journey @ the 75 mph with bursts to 80-85 ranges and @ 59 mpg. But as you can see, you are already nodding off. Actually so would I !!! So now I can talk on the cell phone, watch a movie, eat breakfast and lunch, use mobile networks to surf the web, and actually get work done and the only reason to stop would be ... P..... breaks. Are we there yet?
  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    "The winning technology in all this will be hybrids in all shapes and forms. It won't be the diesel," he said. "

    http://www.detnews.com/article/20090529/OPINION03/905290325/1148/auto01/Tougher+- CAFE+won+t+be+a+free+lunch+for+Europe+s+fuel+misers

    I would disagree with his statement. We will likely see three or more engine technologies being used in the next 5 to 10 years. The three technologies that I think will share the market include: diesels, hybrids and turbo, direct injection engines like the eco motor from Ford. VW and the Europeans will likely make the most diesels. The Japanese brands will make hybrids as will Ford.

    I do not see electric cars making much of a dent for a good ten years. Even then I see them only as second or third cars for city driving.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Supposedly, the Indian company, Mahindra, will begin importing a compact pick-up to the U.S toward the end of 2009. That is this year folks ! Somewhere around 150 hp and around 30 mpg. Final assembly will be in Ohio to beat the chicken tax.

    It supposedly will be a pretty nice truck. About the size of the Tacoma, and will sell somewhere in the mid twenty's. Two door and four door models. Plans for a diesel hybrid in 2010.

    Just google Mahindra diesel pick-up for more info.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    There are really loads of BS/SNAFU surrounding these issues.

    Hybrids indeed the VAST majority run on RUG, RUG by (their) definition is not an alternative fuel.

    So for example going on two decades and/or MORE ago,

    the CA(primarily democratic) legislature forced absolutely stupid (my take) law/s mandating a 3% (plug in) "electric" population. The following quote shows the goals were originally 3.33 x higher !!!!!

    ...""The original goal of California’s zero-emission mandate, which was enacted in 1990, was to require 10 percent of the nearly 1 million new vehicle sales in the state to be all-electric by 2003"...link title

    Now I don't know the full ramifications, but Ford/Toyota/GM each offered a plug in electric Ranger, RAV4, (GM offering escapes me at the moment) At the time I was on our municipality's and County's TA transportation boards and was involved in the plug in Ranger's acquisition.

    To much fanfare and I would assume much incentives, tax credits depreciation etc, etc, they hit the market AND...... everything literally DIED almost immediately.....

    It approaches impossibility to use alternative fuel/s when those very same folks who say we should use alternative fuel/s make it impossible to use.... ah you guessed it... alternative fuel/s.....

    So for example biodiesel is BANNED from being stored in underground double walled storage tanks, despite the regulatory own information knowing not only is it less pollutive than RUG to PUG, but it is FAR simplier to clean up when it is spilled. Storing those types of flamable liquids above ground in an urban setting is next to impossible. Even if they could get the "permits" above ground storage where below ground storage exists already is a min of 50,000 dollars. So when you make .10 cents a gal how many gals do you have to sell to just B/E?
  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    I did see the Mahindra a few moths ago. Not sure I would want to be the first one on my block to buy one. In all likelihood it would be 20 years or more before a dealer set up shop anywhere near my town. The closest VW dealer is 200 miles away as an example.

    http://www.dfwmahindra.com/index.php?x=aboutmahindra

    As of late I have been thinking about a getting a compact pickup next time around. A small diesel of about 2 liters and a six speed auto in a Tacoma sized truck would fit the bill. The 140 hp & 236 ft-lbs, from the VW 2L TDI motor as an example, would compare favorably to the 159 hp & 180 ft-lbs of the 2.7L four in the Tacoma now. The diesel would be the better motor for the kind of work a person does with a pickup. The MPG would also best the so-so 19/25 MPG of the Tacoma with the 2.7L and auto.

    Do I think Toyota or Ford will put a diesel in their compact pickups anytime soon - no sad to say.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    One article said that in addition to dedicated dealers, they would try to have established dealers take on the Mahindra. Chrysler or GM should jump at the chance, or maybe the dealerships that are closing.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The two examples - the Toyota and the Ford small diesel truck... They are already being sold int he rest of the world. By Toyota and Ford.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    . . .the Toyota and the Ford small diesel truck... They are already being sold int he rest of the world. By Toyota and Ford.

    Yeah, but neither one satisfies the pinheads at CARB (that'd be the California Air Resources Board), otherwise known as the anti-diesel [non-permissible content removed].
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    This is a car I would buy to replace my TCH

    Volvo diesel plug-in hybrid - very cool

    Volvo is looking to get into the plug-in hybrid game, with a model V70 expected in 2012. Along with partner Vattenfall, a Swedish energy supplier, Volvo could have three demonstration vehicles by this summer.

    The powertrain is a hybrid diesel-electric. A 11.3 kWh (8 kWh to power the car), which is expected to power the vehicle for 30 miles, at which point the diesel engine would take over. The battery can be recharged in five hours from a standard wall socket.

    There is an associated video from Volvo. Even if Volvo meets the 2012 deadline, it's unclear when Volvo would be go worldwide.

    Volvo Cars aims to be market leader in plug-in hybrid technology

    Volvo Cars continues to focus heavily on advanced green technology and is now taking yet another major step forward in keeping with the company's over-riding vision - DRIVe Towards Zero. A unique joint project together with Swedish energy supplier Vattenfall is prompting the production of battery-powered Volvos featuring plug-in hybrid technology as early as 2012.

    "There is no doubt that the environmental issue is at the very top of Volvo Cars' product development agenda right now," says Stephen Odell, President and CEO of Volvo Cars. "Carbon dioxide emissions from our cars will be drastically reduced by the plan we are now implementing and our aggressive electrification strategy will put us in a leading position when it comes to environmentally optimised passenger transport."

    Plug-in electrical hybrids in production by 2012

    There are many benefits to plug-in electrical hybrids: carbon dioxide emissions are far lower and with an electric motor offering higher power, the car's performance is also far better. Being able to offer a truly attractive car that does not compromise on the other important properties that the customer wants is an absolute precondition for the market to shift towards more environmentally sustainable alternatives that really do make a difference.

    "In fact, I would go so far as to say that the plug-in electrical hybrid we will launch in 2012 will be a true dream car. With the innovative solution we will offer, the car owner will be able to drive a thoroughly enjoyable car packed with Volvo's renowned high safety and genuine driving pleasure", says Stephen Odell.

    Stephen Odell says that Volvo Cars' industrial cooperation with Vattenfall opens up entirely new potential for developing future green technologies in a far more efficient way. Working in partnership is something that the company regards as essential in order to generate sustainable development.

    "DRIVe Towards Zero is our vision and with Vattenfall's expertise and partnership, we are making giant strides towards our targets. With our updated environmental map for the future, we are reinforcing our leading position in the environmental sphere within the premium segment," concludes Stephen Odell.

    The following section presents Volvo Cars' environmental alternative and its map for the future.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So for a R/T commute you could go 15 miles each way each way with one 5 hour charge. Conceptually that makes a lot of practical sense. However the range would be better at say 50-100 miles or from 25-50 miles each way. (in past posts I had mentioned 250 to 500 miles) D2 on a 14.5 gal tank would provide additional range of 600-700 miles)

    In effect that would negate or greatly lessen the cost of government "mandated" miles to/from most folks' places of employment (aka daily commute), with the attending decrease in petro fuel demand.

    So in our case, for one application, a greater range would save app 15,000 (commute) miles of a yearly 20,000 miles or 75% !!!! Since commutes have a lot of idle and slow times it turns the daily event into a ZERO emissions situation.Cummulatively that is 75%, or 15,000 miles with ZERO emissions.

    Actually in our case the order of magnitude is even more extreme because we car pool. So commute miles are actually 30,000 miles. Since we import upwards of 60% of our oil...... we are PLUS 15% !!!???? A passenger vehicle fleet like this could turn us into a net EXPORTER of oil !!!!!!

    Again making/letting the passenger vehicle fleet a minimum of 23% diesel is another KEY to driving down demand ever deeper. (the issue has always been the RATIO of D2 to RUG to PUG in a barrel of oil and of course 20-40% better mileage to name two benefits)

    This concept was one I was talking about many posts ago. So what really happens (with a greater range) is for how a HUGE majority of folks use their cars, The HUGE distinction: D2 (RUG to PUG for that matter) NOW becomes a BACK UP source of power. There are of course hosts of downstream consequences: intended and unintended.

    So again a problem that seemed to have apocalyptic proportions has always been conceptually solvable. (between the head sets)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So with the above good range plug in and (secondary) turbo diesel AND a 35.5 mpg turbo diesel SUV can easily put one 10 years north of the 2016 35.5 mpg standards . Given how long the current 27 mpg standards have lasted, easily 30 years from 2009 !!!
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