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Diesels in the News

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Comments

  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... CARB and EPA are just waking up to the fact that there might be some benefit to burning less fuel, after 35 years with no regard to fuel volume. If it were not for the environmentalists pushing for less carbon output, I would have to wonder if we would ever have a spec for carbon per mile. All previous measurement specs were for tailpipe quality with no regard for quantity, and usually resulted in much greater carbon output.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Right the literal translation to this is very easy to illustrate. It is better to get 12 mpg on a RUG to PUG SUV than 49 mpg on a diesel Jetta......new car sales of one were banned for a number of years.....
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    My guess is; sell more volume, get more taxes. Diesels = less volume, less taxes.

    No other logic holds water.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed, low cost per mile driven (fuel). All I did was run the recent (current) numbers (on another thread- VW Jetta TDI ) and RUG- PUG is (per mile driven (fuel) 107 -122 % more than diesel for a LIKE model car. In the example I used 03 VW Jetta's 2.0 RUG, 1.8T PUG, 1.9TDI D2.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Diesel sniffers unite:

    Drop in diesel fuel prices brings sharp rise in U.S. sales

    The dramatic decline in diesel fuel prices is driving up U.S. sales of diesel-powered vehicles from European carmakers.

    Volkswagen dealers across the country say they can't get enough of the Jetta TDI sedan or station wagon.

    "Things have changed, and diesel Jettas are moving. I want more," says Casey Gunther, owner of two VW stores in Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

    On Tuesday, June 16, the average nationwide price for a gallon of diesel was $2.60, according to AAA. That compared with $2.67 for regular unleaded gasoline and $2.94 for premium.

    A year ago, when diesel hit $4.85 a gallon, European manufacturers wondered how they would sell their new crop of 50-state diesel vehicles, which began arriving last year. VW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz and BMW all sell 50-state diesels in the United States.

    Volkswagen sold 3,862 diesel Jettas in May, up from 2,253 in April.

    "We would expect equal or higher sales of diesels this month," a VW spokesman says.

    About 36 percent of total Jetta sales in May were diesels, compared with an average of 30 percent earlier in the year, the spokesman says.

    Volkswagen says demand for the Jetta SportWagen is particularly strong.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Most folks still like to pay a LOT MORE (107 to 122% more ) for RUG to PUG !!??

    ( in like model cars (i.e., 03 Jetta's 2.0, 1.8T)

    It does need to be said that most OEM's do not offer "like model" diesel options.

    While the 09 Jetta TDI gets (a not bad) 39-45 mpg, I am led to believe it is more like 24 mpg for the gasser versions, with ap 29# ft of torque less. So in this case 76.4% MORE
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It should be a popular model for the cash for clunker bill. If you are trading in an 18 MPG vehicle, there are not many non hybrid choices in mid size that get 28 MPG combined. In fact there may not be ANY mid sized gasser that gets 28 MPG. Makes the VW TDI an obvious choice.
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    Very good news!

    Just wish they'd show how many 335d's have been ordered so far.

    I like the car, I just don't want to be one of only a few hundred owning the car.

    That's like owning an RS6 (only ~900 sold in the US). Depreciation, warrantee, service, finding buyers... all becomes difficult when your car is rare. At least from the examples I've looked into.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    This weekend I was having a conversation (non professional) with 2 CPA's about this very subject. One had an old MB diesel with 405k that he said he mistakenly sold during the RUG to PUG spike of $ 4.59 RUG price (clunker credit of $1,500) . The other was trying to delineate the current in's and outs..... The clunker credit just recently signed is UP to $4,500.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    The headline should have read, "Diesel Sniffers have Hybrid Geeks shaking in their boots.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Not me. I love diesels and hybrids.

    And I would really love me some "Diesel Hybrid" if anyone would sell me one.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Well, you could try one of the railroads in your area and see if they have any surplus locomotives.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ...VW Product Communications Leader Christian Buhlmann tells us, "In the U.S., over 30 percent of Jetta four-doors are TDI and over 50 percent of SportWagen sales likewise."...

    but WAIT !!!...

    link title
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    wonder what my TSX would be worth at trade-in time against one of these?

    Methinks I'll watch all this carefully for the next year or so to see which way the wind blows. Six speed manual w/ a 2 litre diesel meets most of what my ideal vehicle would include. The only missing piece is the RWD.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This Skoda Yeti CUV comes with THREE diesel options. None of which we will see here in the third World of automotive choices. How much oil would we save with soccer mom's getting 35-40 MPG combined instead of 15 MPG?

    image
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    And if you don't like the Yeti, Skoda can offfer the Fabia Hatch, Fabia Estate and Roomster............all with similar diesel options and the SEAT Ibiza and Leon ditto.

    Choice here in Europe is basically which body you'd like wrapped around your favourite small diesel.

    Oh what a hard life. ;)
  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    I have not done this for a bit, so here goes. If you see a negative number it indicates that diesel is cheaper. The numbers are based on the State averages from AAA (06/25/09 02:58 AM).

    Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why diesel is more expensive in only Alaska and Hawaii (D2 vs. PUG)? My guess would be a refinery/transportation issue. Or maybe taxes...in Hawaii they might try and keep the RUG/PUG price down for the tourists..

    And for whatever reason, Montana seems to have the best diesel price when compared to RUG & PUG.

    State RUG/D2 PUG/D2
    Alaska 15.9% 3.6%
    Alabama 0.0% -9.1%
    Arkansas -0.4% -11.3%
    Arizona -2.5% -11.6%
    California -5.4% -12.6%
    Colorado -0.6% -11.1%
    Connecticut 0.9% -9.4%
    District of Columbia 6.3% -3.1%
    Delaware 1.2% -8.8%
    Florida -0.7% -10.0%
    Georgia 0.2% -10.8%
    Hawaii 28.8% 19.6%
    Iowa 0.2% -9.2%
    Idaho 0.8% -7.1%
    Illinois -3.6% -13.1%
    Indiana -2.6% -11.9%
    Kansas 1.5% -4.9%
    Kentucky -3.2% -13.6%
    Louisiana -1.4% -11.6%
    Massachusetts 1.2% -9.3%
    Maryland 1.3% -7.1%
    Maine -1.2% -10.9%
    Michigan -1.8% -10.9%
    Minnesota 1.1% -5.3%
    Missouri 0.2% -9.0%
    Mississippi -0.8% -10.0%
    Montana -6.0% -14.0%
    North Carolina -1.9% -11.4%
    North Dakota -3.7% -10.2%
    Nebraska -1.5% -6.3%
    New Hampshire -0.3% -11.1%
    New Jersey -0.3% -10.4%
    New Mexico -1.5% -11.4%
    Nevada -3.3% -11.5%
    New York 0.8% -7.7%
    Ohio 0.9% -9.0%
    Oklahoma -1.2% -9.5%
    Oregon -4.8% -11.1%
    Pennsylvania 3.2% -6.2%
    Rhode Island 0.7% -8.4%
    South Carolina 0.0% -10.3%
    South Dakota -3.1% -12.5%
    Tennessee 0.0% -9.8%
    Texas -0.2% -9.0%
    Utah 0.8% -8.4%
    Virginia 1.1% -7.2%
    Vermont 1.7% -9.4%
    Washington -3.5% -11.3%
    Wisconsin -2.0% -9.8%
    West Virginia -1.0% -9.8%
    Wyoming -2.3% -12.0%
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is a good question on Alaska Diesel that I have asked before. No state tax on any fuel last I checked. Could be limited refining capacity. I don't think they make any ULSD in Alaska so that would have to be shipped in a clean tanker. They do produce a lot of JetA for the airlines. Anchorage is a fueling stop on the polar route. A Lot of air freight comes through Anchorage International Airport. Hawaii uses diesel to generate most of their electricity. And it all has to be hauled in. Still should not be anymore than RUG.

    http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/State_MotorFuel_ExciseTax_Summary- _4-2009.pdf
  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    "One had an old MB diesel with 405k that he said he mistakenly sold ..."

    That was not a mistake. He just needs to get himself a good gasser. :shades:

    http://www.detnews.com/article/20090628/OPINION03/906280303/1148/auto01/557+000+- miles+on+her+Chariot

    "Sweet old Rachel Veitch of Orlando, Fla., could be the ruination of the
    automobile industry. But at least she's cute.

    When GrowingBolder.com first interviewed her, she was 89 years old and
    had 540,000 miles on her 1964 Mercury Comet Caliente. Now she's 90,
    still packing a sharp tongue and a stubby pistol, and the odometer has
    clicked past 557,000."
  • yesdiesel1yesdiesel1 Member Posts: 23
    As fun as this article is it just underscores my vary first blog to this site. That was that both Ford and GM make product that will go a half million miles with proper maintenance.
    Now if the fools would build a mid size P/U and SUV with a 3 L diesel that would return 30 + MPG the world would be a better place.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well I can see two of my faults here, I don't have a sharp tongue nor pack a pistol. Is there any hope for folks like me? ;)

    Indeed as much righteous indignation that the anti diesel set can muster any car that HAS to be retired under 500,000 miles is... wasteful..... :blush:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Automakers scrap diesel plans

    Richard Truett
    Automotive News
    June 29, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

    Mainstream carmakers have put the brakes on nine diesel-powered vehicles that had been scheduled for 2010.

    Honda, Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Nissan and Toyota have halted diesel programs because of spiraling costs and other problems.

    Financial problems halted the programs at some companies. Others, like Toyota Motor Corp., are looking elsewhere for fuel economy. "We are banking heavily on hybrids," said Toyota spokesman Curt McAllister.

    Only German automakers — Volkswagen, Audi, Mercedes-Benz and BMW — have followed through with plans to launch U.S. diesels on time. Most German diesels are in premium vehicles similar to vehicles built in large numbers for Europe and other markets. That volume reduces development and production costs per vehicle.

    A diesel engine typically delivers fuel economy 20 to 30 percent better than that of a gasoline engine. But a diesel can add between $3,000 and $8,000 to a vehicle's price. Costly components include the turbocharger, the high-pressure fuel injection system and the complex emissions system, which is filled with precious metals. That cost seems to be a barrier for the mass-market brands.

    Still, the new German diesels are selling well. The price of diesel fuel may be a factor. It has dropped from its high last summer of $4.85 per gallon — considerably more than gasoline — to $2.63 last week, a few pennies less than a gallon of regular gasoline.

    'Cost-benefit' problem

    Bernd Bohr, chairman of the automotive group at Germany's Robert Bosch GmbH, knows costs have to come down. Bosch, the world's largest supplier of diesel fuel injection systems, supplies all the new German diesel-powered vehicles in the United States.

    "It's always a question of the cost-benefit relationship," Bohr told Automotive News recently.

    Just one part of some diesels' emissions system — urea injection — can add $1,000 to the cost of the vehicle. A turbocharger, high-pressure fuel injection system and diesel particulate filter pump up the price, too.

    Bohr said Bosch is attacking the cost problem in at least two areas: reducing the amount of oxides of nitrogen, or NOx, produced in the engine — which means a smaller amount of expensive precious metals are needed in the emissions system — and standardizing parts for larger production runs.

    Bohr thinks manufacturers eventually will be able to sell vehicles with six-cylinder diesel engines of about 3.0 liters profitably and in high volumes in the United States.

    "Maybe some of the projects our customers had in the past, maybe V-8s, were a little oversized in today's world," he said. "They are now looking at six-cylinders, maybe 3.0-liter diesel engines. That could be something very much worthwhile for the American market."

    Bias toward hybrids?

    Kevin McMahon, a partner at the Martec Group, a consulting firm, says the way the EPA calculates fuel economy and carbon dioxide standards gives gasoline-electric hybrids an unfair advantage over diesels.

    In 2006, the EPA revised the way it determines real-world, "window sticker" fuel economy to reflect U.S. driving patterns. The EPA's new sticker rulemaking assumes Americans drive 43 percent of their miles in city conditions and 57 percent on the highway.

    But under fleet average standards for corporate average fuel economy and CO2, vehicles are certified using 35-year-old test weighting of 55 percent city and 45 percent highway driving.

    "Diesel vehicles that perform very well at high-load and high-speed driving — where most of America's fuel is used in the real world — are penalized," says McMahon. "Meanwhile, vehicles that perform very well in stop-and-go driving, like hybrids, are overrewarded."

    The image of the diesel engine may be one reason Toyota has halted its plans. Says McAllister: "One of the obstacles of the diesel is the aged perception that the diesel is smoky and stinky. It's hard to change the mind-set of consumers. Hybrid technology has such a clean halo to it."

    link title
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    "One of the obstacles of the diesel is the aged perception that the diesel is smoky and stinky. It's hard to change the mind-set of consumers. Hybrid technology has such a clean halo to it."

    Wow, isn't that all warm and fuzzy.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It is even more bizarre, given those very same oems who are dropping their US market diesel plans, ALL make clean diesels on the world wide markets !!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Maybe their diesels for the rest of the World are too dirty for US standards. And they don't have the engineering expertise of the Germans. At least it would seem so with Honda's recent failure to build a clean enough diesel for EPA regs. Toyota and Ford have midsized hybrids to compete. What does Honda, Chrysler, GM, Hyundai have?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It could very well be. The sense I get are the realities are not being expressed. They are certainly "coded" out.

    For certain, at this time, they either can't or do no wish to compete in the passenger diesel market.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Will the BMW X1 18D make it to our shores?

    The BMW X1 sDrive18d with rear-wheel drive and average fuel consumption to the EU standard of 5.2 litres/100 kilometres (equal to 54.3 mpg imp) and a CO2 rating of 136 grams/ kilometre offers the highest standard of efficiency all round.

    That is 45 MPG US combined. Not bad for a decent CUV. There are superior alternatives to hybrids built in Germany.

    image

    image
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Let's see 45 mpg combined in an SUV !!!??? It is probably the strongest reason why they will try to "KILL" it. This has to be a killer application and at almost any level you can measure, except probably the price !!

    It literally makes the forward 2016 35.5 mpg standard an afterthought. It makes the big four look like a bunch of whiners!!! Strictly from an mpg point of view ,why would anyone get anthing less than a car/suv that delivers 35.5 mpg !!?? Practically of course not much is on the market.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    More on the X1 hot off the press.

    X1 xDrive23d: this is the top-of-the-line diesel X1, and comes only with AWD. The EXACT SAME 2.0L turbodiesel makes an impressive 204bhp@4,400rpm, which is more than 100bhp/l out of a diesel – what’s the world come to? There’s also 400nM of torque (295lb-ft) from 2,000-2,250 rpm. This one can scoot: 0-60 in 7.3 seconds, top speed of 138 with optional high-speed setup, and all with average consumption of 44.8 US MPG. BMW’s diesels are some of the best in the business, and this is pretty solid proof of that.

    BMW X1 diesels

    They should sell at about $40k in the USA, I hope.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Well, DUH - this is why BMW and Mercedes and the other German makers are all moving forward.

    40mpg even would make the entire Domestic and Asian makers gasp and shake in their boots. 40K, big luxury SUV. Double the MPG of any of the competition...

    Going to sell every last one they can build. Yuppies might love the Prius, but give them a choice of a vehicle with twice the capacity and usability of a Prius with nearly the same fuel efficiency?
  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    Food for thought.

    Company, Monthly Sales, Max Diesel Sales in 2015, Percent Diesel Sales
    GM 175000 10000 5.71%
    Ford 155000 10000 6.45%
    Toyota 132000 5000 3.79%
    Honda 10000 1000 10.00%
    Chrysler 68000 10000 14.71%
    Nissan 58000 2500 4.31%
    Hyundai 38000 1000 2.63%
    Volkswagen/Audi 27000 15000 55.56%
    Kia 27000 1000 3.70%
    BMW 21000 10000 47.62%
    Subaru 19000 5000 26.32%
    Mercedes-Benz 15000 5000 33.33%
    Mazda 14000 1000 7.14%
    Mitsubishi 4400 250 5.68%
    Jaguar/Land Rover 2900 500 17.24%
    Suzuki 2200 500 22.73%
    Smart 1200 500 41.67%
    Porsche 900 0 0.00%
    Ferrari 100 0 0.00%
    Maserati 100 0 0.00%
    Mahindra 5000 5000 100.00%
    Others 20000 2500 12.50%
    TOTAL 859847 85750 9.97%

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/01/diesels-grab-81-of-volkswagen-jetta-spor- twagen-sales-in-june/
    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2009_fotw575.html
    http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10274812-48.html?tag=newsBlogPromoArea.2
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    California's tough new smog rules take effect for ships
    By Paul Rogers
    Mercury News

    link title

    The good news!!?? 5,000 ppm sulfur!!?? I'm helping......

    And to think CA EPA and CARB's are trying to blame my 03 TDI that uses 15 to 5 ppm for the decline of western civilization as we know it???

    Take your pick the ships put out 4000 TIMES more or the TDI puts out .00025% less than ships. This is not even counting the sheer VOLUME differences !!!!!! TDI's also have had smog devices the whole time to the ships NONE/NADA/ZIP !!!
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    California's tough new smog rules take effect for ships

    I wonder how many ships will bypass CA and go to OR and WA. If the cost is high enough to burn the low sulfur fuel, (if burner conversions are needed, a separate or converted fuel tank for the clean fuel thus reducing normal fuel capacity) it would pay to go to other ports. With the economy as it is there is a lot of MTY dock space in Seattle and Tacoma to accommodate diverted ships. If this were to happen it could be another loss of revenue for already financially strapped CA.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well seemily that has been the decades old plan !!!

    The CA legislature also tries very hard by rampant overspending and submitting late budgets in blatant violation of the constitution they have sworn an oath to support and defend.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    2010 Mercedes-Benz E250 BlueTEC Concept
    Would you like 39 MPG on the highway? The E250 BlueTEC proves it's possible.

    By Matt DeLorenzo • Photos by John Lamm

    link title
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    >> ...give them a choice of a vehicle with twice the capacity and usability of a Prius with nearly the same fuel efficiency?

    For how much $$$ more?

    As for size, it's far from twice.

    And real-world efficiency, espcially when reduced due to emission requirements, won't be nearly the same. (55.1 MPG average as of 2,533 miles for me.)
    .
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Your post certainly does beg the quesition, what would a turbo diesel Prius hybrid get?

    It also might be another reason why there are so many barriers to a 61 mpg VW Polo TDI. Toyota (and the regulatory agencies that govern them) really doesn't like the (diesel) competition.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For how much $$$ more?

    Actually a VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI can be had for about $24k. I don't think you will get a 2010 Prius for that price. It has about 50% more cargo room than the Prius. In spite of the EPA trying to make their mileage look bad, many are getting 45-50 MPG. The rest of course are all pluses in the VW column. Handling, safety, braking, stability control, fit and finish, interior quality, maintenance cost, rust protection, smooth quiet ride. I am sure I missed at least a half a dozen other good reasons to buy a VW TDI over a Prius. Oh the biggest one of all FUN TO DRIVE!
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Still has the same problem, burns gasoline, a one way fuel. Still dumps more unburned HC and CO into the air than a diesel. Have yet to see a Prius that runs on 100% biofuel making it totally or nearly carbon neutral.

    You can still only use E10 in a Prius. I have run up to B40 in my Jeep Liberty CRD without any loss in FE. I know of several Jeep Liberty CRDs that run on B100 without any modification and no loss in FE or performance.
  • waltergt67waltergt67 Member Posts: 1
    I have the magnaflow too and love it, they are cheaper on ebay but I wanted a warranty(the salt on the roads here in winter kills an exhaust) so I got it here. magnaflow 16901, or you can try one of the vendors here, they are allways runnign sales/specials. either way its a great system and very easy to install.

    LMAO
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Evidently NOT !!!

    ..."the Environmental Protection Agency statistic that if one-third of Americans drove vehicles that run on "clean diesel," the U.S. could save 1.5 million barrels of oil a day, roughly the amount imported daily from Saudi Arabia. "...

    ..."Environmentalists have long battled against diesel. But between the low-sulfur diesel the U.S. pumps today and pollution traps that companies like Audi and Mercedes employ on the cars, the exhaust is cleaner than from most regular gas-fed engines."...

    link title

    Since the EPA probably has access to more of the unofficial and OFFICIAL data, I would change my take to 33.33% passenger diesel fleets !! (from app 23% )

    Simultaneously if diesel engines were OPTIMIZED to burn B 5 to B 100 with on going naturall andindustrial waste bio diesel processing/reprocessing combine with the potentially HIGHLY efficient bio diesel from ALGAE (actually CARBON NEUTRAL) that would permanently remove imported oil DEMAND from the grid.....
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Volume, HAAA, CARB and EPA were BUILT ignoring volume. If they would reward lower volume (in cars and trucks) with a slight allowance in the NOx specs it might end the RECESSION with one sweep. AND, the citizens of the USA could have a good selection of Diesel vehicles, instead of the least selection on Earth. Not to mention the liquid plague of SCR-urea they will be bringing down upon us.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Here is a GASOLINE soot scandal that is virtually IGNORED !!!

    ..."But somehow there is no discussion of the PM (soot) emissions from GDI engines??? "...

    "Under transient conditions GDi engines produce about as much soot as a modern diesel engine, and hence to reach PM regulatory limits, a particulate filter may be required. "

    link title
  • coontie66coontie66 Member Posts: 110
    Here is a "heads UP" for you. When environmentalists (EPA) are without facts and knowledge they substitute the word MAY.

    I have seen it for years. Sometimes they use COULD.

    If you ever go to a public meeting ask the semi-knowledgeable one for the FACTS and Scientifically collected data with statistical analysis they usually can't produce it or a citation to it. Their citations usually are back to someone that SAID it before.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    And here is one for you. Essentially the odds are it will NOT happen because most of these folks are anywhere from no way I'd buy a diesel to outright anti diesel and not anti RUG to PUG, even as diesel is 20-40% more efficient and RUG to PUG (30 ppm) is 2 x to 6 times "dirtier" than diesel. (15-5 ppm).

    It almost never fails to amaze me that while RUG to PUG is FULLY 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet, the assumption is modern diesels are "dirtier" than RUG to PUG vehicles.

    Burning (20-40%) more is better than burning less (and at higher cost per mile) !!!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "I don't think you will get a 2010 Prius for that price. "

    Au Contraire.....I eyeballed a 2010 Prius stickered for $23,559 at Riverview Toyota in Phoenix. I asked the salesman if that was the true price, no markup, and he said Yep.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    That is the absolute base car base price with zero options and I doubt if it includes the destination fee. I have my doubts that such a car exists. So I think Gary is probably right.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I do not post fantasy on this forum.

    Was not completely base, no, it was not. The bottom line sticker price, after everything, was $23,559.

    Gary can be right all he wants, but I sat in this car and talked to the salesman about it while I was waiting for my TCH to get the 45K service.

    Qty 14 2010 Priuses in Phoenix for sale under $24K
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They must be overcharging as the base Prius 2 is supposed to sell for $22,750. Was the Prius you looked at a 2, 3, 4 or 5 level? You want a real good hybrid. Buy the Fusion Hybrid from Ford.

    Not sure your point? You could sell a Prius for $10k and it still would be lacking in all the important areas. Handling, Braking and safety. So you have a reliable brick that gets decent mileage while holding up traffic.

    PS
    Your link does not work
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Diesel TDI model grabs 81% of VW Jetta Sportwagen sales in June
    by Sam Abuelsamid on Jul 1st 2009 at 6:39PM

    link title
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