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In the context of keeping American Honda a minority player as compared to GM, Ford, Chrysler, UAW.....
Indeed, the original 2.2 diesel, (in the Civic, Accord and CR-V), is rated highly by all and sundry over here and I cannot believe the new i-DTEC will not be at least as good. If anything, it will increase the desirability of the Accord. I would certainly look at one when my Volvo S60 D5 comes up for change. Having said that, the concept S60 shown at Geneva is stunning and Volvo are generally pretty faithful to their concepts at the production stage.
The problem we have is the sheer choice of good diesel vehicles in all sectors. It's a hard life.
You're killing me. Though it should be pointed out that an Accord diesel in the UK sells for about $43,000 USD. A Prius is about $35K and a Jetta TDI just under $31k. Part of the reason the foreign plates especially the Japanese send US the dregs. They don't want to deal with the Government or the cheapskate buyers in the USA. Even a cheapo Yaris gasser sells for about 20 grand in USD.
UK Accord
After years of championing diesel power, high-end German automakers are rushing into hybrids. They aren't abandoning diesels — more are coming. And they know gasoline engines will dominate sales for the foreseeable future.
But they've decided hybrids are the best way to improve their green image, boost fuel economy to help meet tight 2016 U.S. standards that favor hybrids and target what looks to be a bigger market.
On the other hand, the German brands could profit by having less competition in the diesel market, at least temporarily.
Honda and Nissan have abandoned plans for diesel sedans in the U.S. by next year. Detroit makers have delayed plans for diesel cars and light-duty trucks, unable or unwilling to shoulder the development costs at a time when Ford Motor is losing money and General Motors and Chrysler landed in bankruptcy court.
And of course, someone has to do it!
So while I have been VERY happy with my VW TDI's, it sure would be fantastic to have ALL that choice.
Mostly off topic, Edmunds.com link title given an indication the auto oems are not wringing their hands about they future instead.... they are RAISING the prices of the gas guzzlers !!!! ????? How about a Honda Accord V6 @ $ 31,000 PLUS MSRP and a Ford Taurus V6 @ $ 35,000 PLUS MSRP. The added attraction? They are now rated as LARGE cars !!?? Of course the 22/19 mpg is quite the feature also.
When compared with the 22/19 mpg , 39-45 mpg (ok 43 for arguments sake) gotten on the 2009 Jetta TDI, the Jetta gets 95% to 126% better fuel mileage !!! Comparing the 2003 Jetta 50 mpg is down right silly (@ 127% to 163% better)
Gee I just got 25 mpg on a Corvette Z06 !!!??? So you see they've not been idle.....
change TO:
the auto oems are not wringing their hands about the future, instead....
Posting this as it is relevant as CARB is the most significant obstacle to diesels in the United States.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That is the enlightening part of the story.
This is a flat-out misleading statement:
"Engines filled with low-viscosity oil may not last as long and could suffer performance problems."
The truth is that switching to higher-viscosity oils "late" in an engine's life might be beneficial, but performance problems? I don't think so.
What benefit is higher viscosity oil "late" in an engine's life?
Biscosity
As mileage adds up and internal engine wear increases bearing clearances, it may be wise to switch to a slightly higher viscosity rating to prolong engine life, reduce noise and oil consumption. For example, if an engine originally factory-filled with 5W-30 now has 90,000 miles on it, switching to a 10W-30 oil may provide better lubrication and protection.
So for example while the 5w30 VW507.00 oils are "backward" compatible with the VW specifications for my 120,000 miles, 03 TDI that has been using 5w40 Delvac One, there is NO way I would switch to both the lower viscosity & newer specifications. OOOOOOOO and fuel mileage is at 48-52 mpg and I can get 44 to 62 mpg at will. Since I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy, I am running 25,000 miles OCI's when 30,000 should do. :surprise:
The problem is CARB regulators don’t know anything about the business of building and selling vehicles and only care about improving fuel economy. Unlike automotive engineers, they are not required to care about safety, durability, customer satisfaction or unintended consequences.
There comes a point when so many restrictions are put on a person/industry/product that that person/industry/product can no longer exist as a viable entity. Maybe it’s time for the auto industry to write off the California market and just sell cars to the real world and stay out of Disneyland.
Another cottage industry would be 20 year old diesel vehicles from Canada, which are legal. Refurbished Land Cruiser and Land Rover diesels should sell very well here.
Combined with all the "gasser new "car raising of prices, it might make no economic sense to buy a new CA car. So for example, as I posted before, a county contiguous to ours has a 9.75% sales tax rate.
Here is an example:
1. would you rather pay 9.75% on 30,000 dollars or 15,000 dollars. $1,463 buys a lot of commute fuel !!!???
2. When you add to that a 9% state income tax, auto fees with a yearly tax "in lieu" of personal state income tax (like they used to have)
3. on top of yearly increasing vehicle registration fees.....
NV, OR and WA might become the new emporiums for car sales. Who knows perhaps more CALI folks will declare other states as their residences.
87 Octane Fuel Is Cheaper, But Is It Okay?
The showdown would be simple...Calif needs new cars, and they mandate specs that apply to their state only...but no automaker makes the effort to comply...either Calif relaxes the standards or the automakers simply write off Calif and sell to the remaining few states...oh, I forgot...that would 49 states...(or, in Obamaspeak, 56)...they should quit kowtowing to calif like it is the Higher Power and make cars for the rest of the market...Calif will buy cars when it needs them and they WILL stand down if they need cars and no one will make cars specifically for them...the automakers have kowtowed to Calif since the invention of the PCV valve, and it si time they told them NO, and see just how Calif responds, as they can't FORCE the carmakers to comply, as they have the right to simply not sell the calif market at all...
With the economy the way it is, and the plunging levels seeking stabilization from minus- 40%, sales rather than small growth, this does NOT portend well at all. Preliminary estimates are +6k to come to 2016 standards !!?? There is really no reason for the other 49 states to have to put up with an up charge of 38% up charge (Civic as an example) , so the EPA and CA EPA & CARBS can chant that we're #1 !!! The smart buy in the future would be to 1 buy used out of state 2. meet the 7,500 mile floor for used registration.
Excellent post. I'd love to see a European-spec A3 or 2.5 litre 3 series brought over and sold everywhere except CARB states. Sadly, not just CA uses the CARB BS, but it'd be worth the price of admission, assuming it's possible to find anyone with balls enough to tell the CA automobile industry to kiss the proverbial.
With the present administration, CARB "standards" may go federal, at which time it'll be all over, if it isn't already.
There is a simple solution to all of this.
1 - Tell CARB to get stuffed and make a nation-wide 50 state program. One rule for all cars, period.
2 - Adopt European crash test standards. Put the damn ego aside and just do it.
That's it. Two changes that would allow cars that are for sale in Europe to be brought over as-is.(trust me, it's not as if changing the headlights makes the car one bit more or less safe vs European models)
With a flood of over a hundred new car models(literally) plus hot niche models, it would be like flinging an entire candy shop at a kid. Everyone would be in showrooms and looking at new cars - and buying them. Ford and GM and the rest would have an easy path to profits. And we'd stop being treated like idiots by the automotive manufacturers.
Give us the European models as-is. It's really that simple.
CARB comes up with these wierd ideas and then the rest of the CARB wanabe states "sometimes" follow along. It's a shame.
I sit here in the U.K. - surrounded by the most amazing choice of good cars; in all sectors, (perhaps not "full size", though), and really cannot see why the nation that gave volume car production to the masses isn't allowed to buy them. I can only think that it's some lame brained attempt to protect your home producers. But GM, (Vauxhall/Opel), and Ford, (Volvo etc), ARE your home producers ! So, is this an orchestrated campaign against the Germans, (and Japanese and Koreans), or just a bunch of magalomaniac bureaucrats exercising their (un)democratic power simply because they can and get some sort of buzz from so doing ?
I just don't get it but I am truly sorry that you good folks cannot share what we Europeans - and others - take for granted. It feels like peeking over the old Berlin Wall and seeing nations that only had access to "State" cars because the masters were afraid to let anything better in for fear of the people realising they were being lied to and they weren't living in a workers' paradise, (as if they didn't know already). Bit of a flawed analogy, I know, but I think you get my drift.
Hope it gets better for you. Kids in a candy store wouldn't even begin to describe it.
The real tragedy (if you can call it that, actually it is entertaining) is that I have had a car 03 TDI Jetta, that can literally cruise all day all night (ok only 672 miles, 7.19 hours) at slower autobahn speeds with the A/C blasting and get 48 mpg !!?? Now do a cross screen shot to biggie four shots like Lutz saying cars like that are economically impossible to produce here in the states.
We're not talking what-if. The cars are being made and it would only require an increase in production and a bit of shipping to offer them to the U.S. market. What you hear in the press is an outright lie.
Take Honda. They make a TDI Civic in the U.K. But they complain that shipping a few thousand of them to the U.S. somehow isn't profitable? Utter B.S.
And the analogy of us being in some sort of East Berlin type gulag is exactly spot-on. It's not even diesels either. We get the worst most dumbed-down choices even in the gas versions.
Do yourself a favor - watch Fifth Gear on youtube. Check out the awesome vehicles that they get over there. It's a crime that we have the most money to spend on cars and the largest amount of roads in the world and we get utter rubbish for choices.
Perhaps the easiest way to illustrate is to take the US oil companies, ie., Chevron. They may be vilified for a lot of things but in the pantheon of nation/state/world wide owned oil companies, they are almost bit players fighting for their literal survival. It really matters very little what I or even you might think, as the drama is being played out world wide.
On the other hand, the issues still remain. So what is to keep "foreign" GM products from being "dusted off" so to speak AND made ready for DOMESTIC GM . These platforms are ALREADY owned by GM (as per your example) !!!!??? What possible off the shelf ALREADY engineered upgrades and doing the so called "upgrades" or patent massages are needed to bring 50 state legal diesel (TDI or otherwise) to the US markets?
As a few have us have said for a while now, these so called "lack"issues are just part of the over all battle plan (anti diesel) , aka SOS/ DD.
All of these - and more - already exist in Europe and would cost two-thirds of five-eighths of not a lot to get to USA.
As for Honda, Yes they build diesel Civics in UK...............along with diesel Accords and diesel CR-V's. I am told that the UK factory actually builds CR-V's for the USA market; but not in diesel format. Have a look at the maker's plate on a CR-V and see where it originated. Why they won't send you diesels is not something I can begin to understand. Do you get the same Civic as us or are you still getting the "old" body whilst we get the starship ?
As well as looking at Fifth Gear go find BBC iPlayer and then you can watch the current series of Top Gear as well. J Clarkson was in one of the UK weekend papers writing about how much he loves the Jaguar XR 3.0 diesel auto. This from a man who isn't a fan of diesels or auto's.
Link to fun here :
BBC iPlayer
That board has demonstrated an ability and a will to make things worse on manufacturers repeatedly.
What confidence can these manufacturers have? Faith in CARB to not change drastically at their own whims?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The truth is in todays economy, the ESTIMATE 2009 MY sales will be LUCKY @ 9.6 MAX . That figure is down from good year sales of between 16.5 to 17.5 M or - 42% to -45% !!!
So for example, do they REALLY expect the BMW 335 D to single handedly RAISE a less than 2% (actually 1.274M) passenger diesel population (5.114 M of 255.7 M) of which fully 75%(3.84M) are diesel light trucks: TO... what 3% ? (2.56 M sales of 2009 MY BMW 335 D's% ) Let's just put a base comparison. SUV's took 30 years, 3 decades to become 12% of the passenger vehicle population (30.684 M)
So what are BMW 335i (gasser )sales doing in a comparo? Are those BMW 335 I flying off the lots and sold even before they are delivered?
The truth is the BMW 335 D twin turbo TOTALLY blows away the BMW 335 I !!!! 425 # ft of torque is truly muscle car POWER in a compact sedan !!!! This is beyond awesome.
Then... they leave out, don't mention or totally ignore VW selling 30% of their Jetta production as diesels !!! The 2009 target was 25% diesels !!! So VW is 20% ahead of projections!? VW also messed up with the JSW (Jetta Sedan Wagon) being 81% diesel !!!??? The auto oem's should all have those kind of problems !!??
Interesting how you did too. 30% is only a relative measure.
WHAT IS THE ACTUAL QUANTITY?
.
VW said it increased its share of the world passenger-car market to 12.0 percent in the first half, compared with 9.9 percent the year before, amid an 18 percent slump in the overall global car market.
Diesel cars are taking hold in the US market as well. We are just slow learners in the USA. If we had adopted EU standards we would be using a lot less fossil fuel today in the USA. Our insistence on burning that nasty Regular Unleaded Gas is keeping US at the trailing edge of automotive technology. We are the laughing stock of the World. We are also hated for our wastefulness.
Projected yearly production in the US is app 225,000. This is app the same production as in the "banner years of 16-17M MY car sales !! This in and of itself is remarkable given the current economic climate Anyone can google Jan thru July 09 VW US diesel sales. I am sure that comes as no surprise to you. Gagrice in an above post gave VW ww sales first half of the year, and again a "relative" indicator.
So given the answers, you still have managed to mis understand or ignore the original points.
In 2008, BMW has delivered a total of 303, 600 vehicles in the US, including the MINI and Rolls-Royce brands.
Out of the total number, 249,000 were BMW models, which considering the market conditions, BMW sees it as a success. BMW announced that they are still the number one European automobile brand in the United States and getting closer to the the market leader, Lexus.
Here is a Reuters press release (June to June 09) MY (new car sales start in the previous years' June) BMW Group U.S. Division Reports June 2009 Sales
To state the absolute obvious, if one knew the percentages % (diesels), one would know the units associated with that percentage %
A % I have yet to find in any BMW literature, unfortunately.
On the bright side, your last link shows that the X5 in June is showing the only increase in sales, at 0.8% for June.
Perhaps the X5d has helped to stabilize sales of this SUV.
I remember seeing a similar spike in SUV sales for Merc back when they were the only diesel game in town.
So this could be a good sign for BMW diesels. Very hard to say though without any real sales data on the diesel % themselves.
Spin all you want. There's no reason the actual number couldn't have been used instead.
Descriptions like "on target" and "projected meet" and basically any adjective doesn't allow people to make the decision for themselves. In fact, it promotes misunderstanding.
.
John,
I don't think you've been clear as to why you'd like to see the actual figures. I suspect the reason would be: is x% of all Jettas an improvement on prior Jetta sales, or are the diesels just taking the place of x% of Jettas that would have been sold as gassers?
i.e. is the Jetta TDI helping VW market share, or just diesel market share?
I disagree that a flat-out number is of any value unless compared relative to how other manufacturers are fairing in this economy.
I actually found the numbers. VW sold 5,072 clean diesels in June. VW sold 81% Sportwagons, 40% sedans, and 29% Touaregs as diesels.
VW sold a total of 19,027 units. Which is a useless figure unless I include that is down 18% in total sales year-on-year.
Now, if we knew what Jetta sales were last June, we could tell if Jetta TDI sales are helping keep VW under 20% in the red, which is quite good this year. It may be that without the TDI, VW would be down 36% like Toyota!
I found this on autotantra. Rules of the forum are no linking to other forums, so that's all I can say for now.
Only VW is bringing economical diesels to the U.S. They're selling like hotcakes. There are dozens of other similar cars being sold in Europe made by Audi, BMW, Peugot, Ford & others that can't be sold here, thanks to CARB.
If they could be sold here, they would be sold here, in significant quantities. VW has shown the way, albiet with a complicated 50-state-compliant vehicle.
Why can't we just have the European-compliant cars?
We've been over this all before, sadly.
And for some reason, you try so VERY hard to do !! :lemon:
No spin at all. The actual numbers were used in past posts AND again when you asked for it. Indeed Gagrice provided the macro scene.
Seems like you be doin the spinnin.....
I think BMW's problem is they are trying to sell their most expensive diesels in the U.S. so their sales are not that great. Give us some smaller diesels please !
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Which allows each and every piece and part of the car to be taxed each time work is done to it. When the plastic power-window toggle is made from the raw oil, it's taxed... when it's placed in the power-window assembly, it's taxed AGAIN. When the assembly unit is placed in the car, taxed AGAIN. And when the car is sold, TAXED AGAIN!
For each and every single part, from the lowly nuts and bolts to the seats to the gas tank to the engine, EVERYTHING.
Take that most excellent tax out and your $43,000 Accord suddenly gets *MUCH* cheaper.
But hey, jolly ole' England has gotta pay for it's free health-care and dole somehow. And it's citizenry doesn't seem to kick up much fuss.
I'm sure that Hollywood and San Francisco would gladly suffer such an inconvenience to save Mother Earth.
(cuts the sarcasm with a knife)
1. Smaller than the 3 series.
2. Costs nearly as much as the 3 series.
And if you can afford a BMW, a few grand isn't much of a big deal... but having a useful back seat does.
I tend to agree with ruking that 5,000 a month is pretty substantial for a new product with 30% of their total volume made up of diesels in less than a year after release in a medium-sized automaker in the US.
If the trend continues, VW alone could be circulating 50,000+ clean diesels a year here. That's not including Audi's new Q7 TDI. Soon to be joined by the A3 TDI.
With the X5d selling about 20-30%, the 335d (???%) and Merc bluetec, I'd say the potential is there to sell well over 100,000 units a year in new diesels, even as new car sales shrink.
So it sounds like the author was just being skeptical for the sake of it. I don't know what they would qualify as 'flying off the shelf', but every new car starts somewhere. Look at MINI.