Those might be the real reasons. To me, the 1 series takes me back to the old BMW 2002. When I saw the 1 series at the dealerships, my take was they just put the back seats in there so it could pass as a "4 passenger car" Sort of like the reason why they put 4 seats in a 911- everybody knows they are really 2 seaters.
It would seem that 2010 will be another diesel model "roll out" year for VW. They will also bring out the GTD (GTI but a diesel). So far three diesel models: Touareg, Golf Jetta. It might be too early to talk of the Passat diesel platform. Again the actual production numbers are not written in stone, but VW press releases put the percentage goal @ 40% of production @ diesel. I read that figure was pronounced the same time they announced diesel for 2009 would be @ 25%. As posted earlier they are hitting 30% diesel. So no real word if the stated 40% will change.
I think the X5 diesel is selling pretty well here in San Diego. According to Edmund's inventory there are only 3 diesels available out of about 40 X5s sitting at dealerships. I know when I tried getting a deal on the ML320 CDI it was MSRP. I could get the others with huge discounts. I am going to hold out for a smaller SUV with a 4 cylinder diesel. Hopefully the Tiguan or A4 Allroad with 2.0 TDI.
It would seem that increasing numbers of oems are seeing their way to bringing more diesel models to market.
I was going to tic a few more off the top of my head, but seems anymore folks get the feathers ruffled easily.
The BMW of course has the X5 D and 335 D. MB has their two MB 320/350 D, and SUV cross over. They of course do the (special order?) Dodge Sprinter-like MB custom/semi custom RV.
So whomever wants to shout out ones they are considering....
That sums what I'm not looking for. I don't want opinion, just facts. Fact is, sales counts compared to others are not useless. How useful is an opinion, just like claiming there is none.
I know quite well that 5,072 is smaller than the competition. But I avoid % knowing that it is misleading.
It's bad practices like that which have impaired advancement. Haven't you noticed the rate of progress?
SEATTLE - Boeing owns a boat. It's a fast boat powered by a jet engine (a hydroplane, to be exact) that's used to demonstrate biofuels.
Much of that biofuel is coming from something called the Camelina plant. Camelina isn't a food like wheat, but it is rich in oil. Targeted Growth, the Seattle-based company that makes fuel out of it, says it grows like crazy in arid climates.
"Eastern Washington, Montana the Dakotas. It's a lovely crop because we can grow it in a wide variety of areas in North America," said Tom Todaro, the company's CEO.
Boeing and the airlines have been experimenting with biofuel/jet fuel blends for about two years. But because safety's so important on airplanes, the industry isn't quite ready to let go of jet fuel altogether.
Most of these flights are blends, and usually one engine is actually running on that blend. The other engine is strictly on a jet fuel diet.
If something happens to Boeing's hydro, it will just stop. (Boeing doesn't actually compete with its boat.)
The potential for change starts Sunday, when Boeing's hydro will run on 100 percent renewable fuel.
"What it does is it gives us another platform to see how this does in a high performance engine," Boeing's Terrence Scott said.
The blend for Sunday's test consists of fuel refined from Camelina, algae, and the tropical jatropha plant
Fact is, sales counts compared to others are not useless.
You're not following logic. Any logic. Including yours.
You said "30% is only a relative number."
So I pointed out that a number like 5,072 isn't important unless being compared relative to something else.
You don't appreciate VW comparing it relative to themselves. You'd rather compare it relative to other oems.
That is actually spin you just did there.
How useful is an opinion, just like claiming there is none.
That's not an opinion I gave. That's a statistical fact. A hard number is of no value unless given in context or comparison. You just verified me as being correct.
FYI, when you compare any 2 things, you are doing so relative terms. You somehow think it is 'factual' just to look at 2 compared things and just call them 'big' and 'small,' That is subjective, and very easy to spin.
Ratio (factor to which one item is bigger or smaller) and percentage are both factual information.
From a statistics perspective, your statements are incorrect.
As anybody will attest hybrids have had regulatory cheer leading even before its MY life cycles. Even the EPA tests have been cooked to advance the policy of hybrids and full court press marketing !!!! Really no big deal just use the old test for ...diesels.
Funny how diesels are 2% (255.7 M) or 5.114 M units, even as they had to endure new car sales bans for some years and policies that continue to be... anti diesel. I say let them compete on a so called "level playing field".
As ruking has eluded, john is wanting to get the hybrid vs diesel debate heated up. It seems that hybrid sales have tanked with other vehicles. He also does not like comparisons that include the simple fact. Hybrids are only popular where diesels are stymied by archaic regulations. World wide hybrids are not even a blip on the scale. While diesels continue to grow exponentially. When given choices as in the EU, diesels sell and hybrids are only bought by a few people that want to look different. Honda really needs to assess their hybrid program. They have 3 hybrid flops and the Civic hybrid is only a lukewarm seller. They are losing market share to Toyota their main rival. I would expect after the early adopters trade their worn out Prius in on the 2010 model that market will dry up. The new VW Jetta TDI is going a long ways to change people's misconception of the superiority of diesel as a fuel. With biodiesel the best alternative fuel on the horizon.
"Hybrids are only popular where diesels are stymied by archaic regulations. World wide hybrids are not even a blip on the scale. While diesels continue to grow exponentially"
100% correct. Hybrid systems cost more to make than diesels, and economy is not much better - if at all. Only pure electric vehicles will be the alternative of choice in the future.
I have said this in other posts, but conceptually, a dynamite combination would be a 250-500 mile range plug in electric that has so called reasonable plug in times with a TDI (turbo diesel motor) as a back up. You could literally run on/off the grid and if when your plug in electric runs/taps out you have a full turbo diesel motor with up to the same range (14.5 gal) or 600 mile range. for a total of 1100 miles.
Essentially those are the (oxymoronic) problems in a nut shell. If you power it off the grid (solar for example), the cost can be down to theoretically/ essentially ZERO. You also turn a normally PRIMARY fuel source (RUG to PUG) into a back up one. (in the example D2 to B100). But untill you have a killer application on the market, my preference would indeed be diesel. Even the (logical and sane advocates) say plug in electric is 10-15 years away. Essentially you cut out WHOLE parts of food chains, the current systems are designed to ..."feed" so to speak. This is threatening at almost all levels.
So for example, you see it for the lack of progress in bio diesel, i.e., from algae !!! I mean really, where does algae NOT grow ????? I mean really any place you have a waste treatment plant? PERFECT place to grow... ALGAE. The list is literally almost endless. Essentially biodiesel is as close to carbon neutral as anything will get !!! Even electricity as currently delivered will NEVER be carbon neutral. So there are tons of bogus areas in the food chain/s.
The so called problem is exacerbated by the fact they take this to mean current food chains are the MAGIC bullet gone "bad" and we need to replace it with.... another "GOOD" MAGIC BULLET. :sick: :lemon: The single magic bullet theory in effect got us into this intellectual box!!??? And we want to put ourselves into ANOTHER intellectual BOX !!??
Comparison numbers are a further threat. So I think that is one reason john wants the raw numbers and tries at EVERY turn to vanish them into "nothingness." Indeed the public is hard to fool, even as "the masses" are credited with not being the sharp knives in the collection. In his case add to that almost anyone else that disagrees with him being the comissar of environmental correctness.
I have not seen the media put numbers to the advantage of Prius hybrids over say the Corolla. So for example, on a 04 Civic (should be obvious a Corolla competitive product) it gets 38 mpg to say a 04 Prius 45 mpg. Clearly it is 7 mpg better. Just push a few more keys on the solar crack u lator and viola 18% better? Why? Because the hybrid battery/motor portion lets the gasoline engine be OFF app 18% more than the Civic. Since the cost was app 12k more, which incidently would have bought (almost) another Corolla/Civic at the time. Most folks would (and have) conclude/d things about cost effectiveness that would affect their own lives. So still got an 18% issue? Hey drive 18% LESS !!!!!!! Hello !!!???
Indeed statistics indicates Prius drivers drive (2000 miles more) 17 to 14% more, go faster and get more speeding tickets than the "dull masses" at large (avg driver 12,000 to 15,000 miles).....
quote Wards- Expect Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd.’s first U.S.-market offering to make its showroom debut in first-quarter 2010. In deference to the demanding nature of American consumers, Mahindra tweaked the yet-unnamed small pickup, which delayed by about three months its production launch, Ward’s learns. Output of U.S.-specification models now is set for December at the auto maker’s assembly plant in Nasik, India, with showroom arrival scheduled for early to mid-February. Meanwhile, Mahindra has shelved tentative plans to build the 2- and 4-door models, known internally as TR20 and TR40, respectively, in Ohio. Domestic production “is something that is on the agenda to be pursued at another time,” says Larry Daniel, senior vice president-sales and marketing, of Mahindra’s U.S. arm, Global Vehicles U.S.A. Inc. In a telephone interview from Global’s headquarters in Alpharetta, GA, Daniel tells Ward’s he expects Mahindra to “make an investment and employ some Americans” when industry volumes begin to trend upward. Through June, small pickup sales in the U.S. totaled 131,290 units, a shortfall of 43.1% compared with the first six months of 2008, according to Ward’s data. U.S.-specification truck closely resembles model launched last week in Australia. Target volume for Mahindra reportedly is in the 50,000-unit range. To make the truck more appealing to U.S. consumers, its front end was restyled and now features “jewel-like qualities,” adds Max Butler, Global vice president-marketing. The U.S.-specification truck closely resembles the model launched last week in Australia, he says. The truck will be powered by a 140-hp 2.2L 4-cyl. diesel engine with projected combined city-highway fuel-economy of 30 mpg (7.8 L/100 km). Available with 2-wheel drive or 4-wheel drive, it also will feature a 6-speed automatic transmission and electronic stability control. Despite a 2,633-lb. (1,194-kg) payload rating that rivals the fullsize Ford F-250 Super Duty – Ford Motor Co. data show four trim levels with payloads under 2,600 lbs. (1,170 lbs.) – Daniel anticipates outdoors enthusiasts will outnumber work-oriented buyers 3:1, with the latter demographic gravitating toward the 2-door model. Steve Taylor, president of Ohio-based Taylor Automotive Group, is one of more than 300 dealers who look forward to selling Mahindra vehicles. “We’re thinking we can lease (the pickup) to small businesses,” Taylor tells Ward’s, adding the diesel engine likely will become a selling feature as gasoline prices increase. The per-gallon average price of diesel fuel in the U.S. was $2.58, $0.06 higher than the pump price of gas, according to the American Automobile Assn. But diesel engines are 20% to 30% more efficient than their gasoline-burning counterparts. Particularly enthusiastic about the prospects of Mahindra SUV expected to arrive in mid- to late-2010, Taylor also is buoyed by results of an AutoPacific study that says American consumers are warm to an Indian-brand vehicle. “It’s a world market and it’s on a roll,” he says. Related Stories Mahindra Schedules Second Plant to Supply U.S. Market in 2009 Positive Perception Double-Edged Sword for China, India OEMs The study findings are consistent with Mahindra’s vision of a customer base that comprises “independent thinkers,” Daniel says. “They don’t really care about what people think about what they’re driving,” he adds. “They’re influencers. They’re not followers. I think they’ll be out there with their kayaks, and they’ll be out hiking and doing all the things (like putting) surfboards on top in California.” Says Butler, noting Mahindra’s track record as India’s top truck maker: “This is a very robust product. It’s based on and built for an environment where it has to hold up very well.” Daniel does not expect the names TR20 and TR40 to pass muster within Mahindra’s marketing ranks because of its similarity to Toyota Motor Corp.’s TRD trim levels. The Toyota Tacoma, along with the Nissan Frontier and Dodge Dakota, are among the trucks Mahindra is targeting as direct competitors. Daniel favors the Australian nameplate: Pik Up. “That hit me and I like it,” he says, promising Mahindra’s pricing strategy will “blow away” the segment. However, Daniel does not reveal numbers.-end
Yeah, I have posted on this Mahindra diesel a couple of times, etc. I am disappointed but not surprised that they have run into problems and delays....
03 Prius (www.fueleconomy.gov, 22 vehicles) 44.7 mpg
Resale value (Edmunds.com) on both are very good. Cost per mile driven (depreciation) has been .1122 cents 03 Prius vs .0753 cents 03 VW TDI. Prius is app 49% more per mile driven (depreciation)
With gas @ (corner store) $2.99 and D2 @ $2.75 gal. per mile driven is .06689, 03 Prius vs .0591, 03 VWTDI. or 13% greater per mile driven.
I have absolutely no problem with some one paying (losing) 49% more in depreciation (per mile driven) and 13% more for fuel. (per mile driven).
Since my short term goal is (another 100,000 miles) 200,000 miles, I can cite the numbers when I hit that or give you a current snap shot.
Here is mine for last 14 months. 14.77 MPG total 5507 miles driven.
Advantage mine. Safe, quiet comfort. Would I rather get 30+ MPG with a diesel Sequoia? You bet I would. Just not allowed in this gas guzzling society. If the 2010 Prius is no smoother, quieter than the 2009 Prius. Just not my cup of tea. I gave up rough riding noisy cars when I was able to afford better. To each his own. I spent $69 per month on gas last year. About 1% of my net income. I wish my water was as cheap as my gas bill. I pay 10 times more in property tax. So why should I give up safety and comfort for such a small savings in gas?
As far as Jetta TDI sales. They are what we get, which is a very limited supply. The diesel response was much greater than VW anticipated. Unlike Toyota, they must be unhappy with their sales as they are canceling their plans to build Prius in the USA.
San Diego dealers: Jetta Sportswagen TDI 4 total for county 2010 Prius over 30 available
As has been fairly obvious of late, gassers in general have taken a deep hit 38% or more. Toyota is looking to also close down Nummi, Fremont, CA, one the factories that make the premier economy cars, Toyota Corolla. (they also make the Tacoma)
So... "poor saps" who bought the 03 Prius' eh? Even from a Prius buyer!!! Low blow even from the point of view of a 03 VW Jetta buyer. Best not to become a more "current" sap?
I also left out the obvious (or maybe NOT so obvious), that someone has bought a new 09 Prius, I am still running the 03 TDI. So how much is a 03 Prius new and a new 09 Prius vs a 18,000 03 VW TDI ??? Of course this question will come up again when someone buys the next gen Prius and I continue to depreciate the 03 VW TDI :confuse:
News Release Issued: August 3, 2009 12:41 PM EDT Clean Diesel Continues to Fuel Volkswagen’s July Sales -Over thirty percent of total sales were Clean Diesel TDI -Government sponsored ‘Cash-for-Clunkers’ Program accounted for over 3,300 sales
HERNDON, Va., Aug. 3 /PRNewswire/ — Volkswagen of America, Inc. today announced July 2009 sales of 20,590 units, representing a 0.7 percent increase over July 2008.
Volkswagen’s award winning clean diesels, Jetta, Jetta SportWagen, and Touareg TDI, once again posted their best sales month since their re-launch with 6,320 units — accounting for more than 30 percent of total sales. The Jetta SportWagen for the third consecutive month posted its best sales month ever with sales of 2,415 units; clean diesel TDIs represented 81 percent of SportWagen sales, and 40 percent of Jetta sedan sales.
“Volkswagen of America is extremely pleased by how well our clean diesel TDIs continued to sell throughout July, and by our highly successful first month of the government sponsored ‘Cash-for-Clunkers’ Program,” said Mark Barnes, Chief Operating Officer, Volkswagen of America, Inc. “It was not by accident that Volkswagen was able to perform so well in the government ‘Cash-for-Clunkers’ Program. Our dealers were well informed and fully trained on the rules of the program, our marketing was in place, and our product line of fuel efficient vehicles all contributed to a successful first month. I’m thrilled that our dealers were able to respond so well to the ‘Cash-for-Clunkers’ Program,” added Barnes.
We just stopped into Drew VW on our way home from Balboa park. A friend wanted to see how well he fit in the Sportswagen. When We asked to check out a Sportswagen, the saleman said I hope you are not interested in the TDI. I told him that was the only reason we would buy one. He told me that they are in such short supply that most people are waiting 90 days for delivery. He was also not impressed with C4C program. He said it only cost them more in time and horrible paper work. Most were on Hyundai sales which they also sell.
By the way, we both liked the GTI for our long frames to get in and out of. I would consider the Golf TDI when they arrive.
..."By the way, we both liked the GTI for our long frames to get in and out of. I would consider the Golf TDI when they arrive"...
It is TRULY interesting how that works !!?? But hey if it works, it works.!!?? This (new) 2010 GTD sounds like the diesel version of the GTI (diesel hot rod) If it comes in the 2 door Cou'pe, I would be SEVERELY tempted !! The articles I have read about it illustrates a 4 door. (already have two 4 door diesels. so... not a ping, by any means) .
As an aside it would seem if they keep the diesel production up, they will even exceed the already higher than goal (25%) @ 30% to 30%+. PLUS. They have obviously done that with the JSW @ fully 40% diesel.
The GTD is the version being sold in the EU. It has 170 HP out of the same 2.0L TDI engine. It is a real hot rod diesel. There is a debate if we will get them here. Not sure they can pass the much stricter emissions for diesels in the USA.
I also miss the VW Rabbit PU with diesel. They were getting 50 MPG when Toyota and Honda only wished they could build a high mileage vehicle.
I hear you there. I think by now ALL of use have learned initial TDI reports are "hopeful," but usually suspect.
I have never seen this in press releases, but using the 03 MY lines as an example, they had (from recall) TDI's in Passat, NB, Golf, Jetta. To tell you the truth, I didn't give it much thought as to why they only had the 09 Jetta TDI (there is of course the TDI in Touareg). The main point, I just see it as a natural progression to start to bring TDI's out in the others models now the initial 50 state 09 Jetta TDI MY "release" has been on the market..
ON an admittedly OFF topic article written by a Georgetown University Professor link title, that brings into focus some "grand canyon" scale divides in (HYBRID) vision vs the logistics practicality of "implementation." UPSHOT: NOT (NYET) sustainable/sustainability.....
Hmmm....so, according to EDMUND'S, the Prius takes over 26 years to recover the initial extra cost ? I think that is what most of us have been saying here for years and what a minority has been denying for years !
I did not see anything about how many years it took for a diesel to recover the initial extra cost...just that it was less than the Prius.
I think in addition, this and obviously some unstated factors and probably MORE importantly unintended consequences could propel diesel cars to easily 10-15% of the passenger vehicle fleet population (up to 38.355 M ). To put this into perspective, SUV's are app 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet. (255.7 M @12%= 30.684 M) Keep in mind from the git go that Congress could have easily put a far LOWER lid on both the % and volume that it happens to be in reality, but the EXTREMELY higher profit margins on SUV's,..."Manufacturers generally make 15% to 20% in profit on an SUV, compared with only 3% or less on a car, according to Michael Flynn, director of the University of Michigan Office for the Study of Automotive Transportation. ergo much higher tax VOLUMES might have been a "deterrent". So for example in CA, would you like 9.75% taxation on 12,000 dollars or 9.75% taxation on 40,000 dollars?? On the other side of the corollary: 3% on 12-15k or 15 to 20 % on 40k.??
I think the governmental policy wonks (at all levels) and the financial side (committees) of Congress realize that if they come out with real market examples of what Senator Charles Schumer of NY says is "da future," plug in electric hybrid, those actions have the potential to bankrupt and sour the concept. (plug in electric hybrid)
If one wants a real life example of DOA (dead on arrival) , research or goggle the CA legislature's 3% MANDATORY plug in electric new car sales legislation.
Guys please tell me how much you pay for oil filter for Jeep Cherokee 2007 diesel V6 3.0l CRD. Canadian Chrysler dealer charged me almost $50 dollars including tax. I saw same filter on the E-bay for $35. Does anybody have access to cheaper ones? Please let me know.
However I see it like home grown (local demand based) and RENEWABLE AND carbon neutral, etc etc. You don't have to wait for millions to billions of years for "dinosaurs" to decompose and compress...
Indeed I have read estimates of the potential of up to 150,000 gals of biodiesel from algae per acre per year. But currently realistic targets might be
"We expect to produce 100,000 gallons (of vegetable oil) per acre per year,"... link title
Indeed the process CONSUMES CO2, does not take away from food production, ( as as corn based ethanol), but ADDS to ethanol production, adds to "cattle" feed, produces OXYGEN and is capable of a MUCH shorter logistics production to delivery chain.
But you have to start somewhere, so how about 4000 gals of oil per acre? link title
Compare that to:
Gallons of Oil per Acre per Year
Corn . . . . . . . 15
Soybeans . . . .48
Safflower. . . . . 83
Sunflower . . . 102
Rapeseed. . . 127
Oil Palm . . . . 635
Micro Algae . .1850 [based on actual biomass yields]
To state the utterly obvious, Congress needs to legislate, and regulatory mazes need to allow oems vendorsto permit engine to build products specified for use with bio diesel, so that the endeavor is not economically dead in the water before it takes off.
I am not sure why the change didnt take, but the sentence should read as such:
To state the utterly obvious, Congress needs to legislate, AND the regulatory maze needs to allow engine vendors/oemsto build products specified for use with bio diesel (B5 to B100). Anything less increases the chances of the endeavor being economically dis advantaged while being part of the solution to the nations "issues" BEFORE it even takes off.
Comments
I was going to tic a few more off the top of my head, but seems anymore folks get the feathers ruffled easily.
The BMW of course has the X5 D and 335 D. MB has their two MB 320/350 D, and SUV cross over. They of course do the (special order?) Dodge Sprinter-like MB custom/semi custom RV.
So whomever wants to shout out ones they are considering....
lApril 10,2009 the official
That sums what I'm not looking for. I don't want opinion, just facts. Fact is, sales counts compared to others are not useless. How useful is an opinion, just like claiming there is none.
I know quite well that 5,072 is smaller than the competition. But I avoid % knowing that it is misleading.
It's bad practices like that which have impaired advancement. Haven't you noticed the rate of progress?
SEATTLE - Boeing owns a boat. It's a fast boat powered by a jet engine (a hydroplane, to be exact) that's used to demonstrate biofuels.
Much of that biofuel is coming from something called the Camelina plant.
Camelina isn't a food like wheat, but it is rich in oil. Targeted Growth, the Seattle-based company that makes fuel out of it, says it grows like crazy in arid climates.
"Eastern Washington, Montana the Dakotas. It's a lovely crop because we can grow it in a wide variety of areas in North America," said Tom Todaro, the company's CEO.
Boeing and the airlines have been experimenting with biofuel/jet fuel blends for about two years. But because safety's so important on airplanes, the industry isn't quite ready to let go of jet fuel altogether.
Most of these flights are blends, and usually one engine is actually running on that blend. The other engine is strictly on a jet fuel diet.
If something happens to Boeing's hydro, it will just stop. (Boeing doesn't actually compete with its boat.)
The potential for change starts Sunday, when Boeing's hydro will run on 100 percent renewable fuel.
"What it does is it gives us another platform to see how this does in a high performance engine," Boeing's Terrence Scott said.
The blend for Sunday's test consists of fuel refined from Camelina, algae, and the tropical jatropha plant
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_080109WAB-boeing-biofuel-hydro-KS.9b18- 87fa.html
You're not following logic. Any logic. Including yours.
You said "30% is only a relative number."
So I pointed out that a number like 5,072 isn't important unless being compared relative to something else.
You don't appreciate VW comparing it relative to themselves. You'd rather compare it relative to other oems.
That is actually spin you just did there.
How useful is an opinion, just like claiming there is none.
That's not an opinion I gave. That's a statistical fact. A hard number is of no value unless given in context or comparison. You just verified me as being correct.
FYI, when you compare any 2 things, you are doing so relative terms.
You somehow think it is 'factual' just to look at 2 compared things and just call them 'big' and 'small,' That is subjective, and very easy to spin.
Ratio (factor to which one item is bigger or smaller) and percentage are both factual information.
From a statistics perspective, your statements are incorrect.
Yes it might be a reason why articles like this are so hard to find and the percentages so hard to figure Worst Sales Performance of Any Car: Toyota Prius
Or
Despite Toyota’s impressive sales figures, hybrids are still just 2.3 percent of the U.S. market
As anybody will attest hybrids have had regulatory cheer leading even before its MY life cycles. Even the EPA tests have been cooked to advance the policy of hybrids and full court press marketing !!!! Really no big deal just use the old test for ...diesels.
Funny how diesels are 2% (255.7 M) or 5.114 M units, even as they had to endure new car sales bans for some years and policies that continue to be... anti diesel.
I say let them compete on a so called "level playing field".
100% correct. Hybrid systems cost more to make than diesels, and economy is not much better - if at all. Only pure electric vehicles will be the alternative of choice in the future.
I have said this in other posts, but conceptually, a dynamite combination would be a 250-500 mile range plug in electric that has so called reasonable plug in times with a TDI (turbo diesel motor) as a back up. You could literally run on/off the grid and if when your plug in electric runs/taps out you have a full turbo diesel motor with up to the same range (14.5 gal) or 600 mile range. for a total of 1100 miles.
Essentially those are the (oxymoronic) problems in a nut shell. If you power it off the grid (solar for example), the cost can be down to theoretically/ essentially ZERO. You also turn a normally PRIMARY fuel source (RUG to PUG) into a back up one. (in the example D2 to B100). But untill you have a killer application on the market, my preference would indeed be diesel. Even the (logical and sane advocates) say plug in electric is 10-15 years away. Essentially you cut out WHOLE parts of food chains, the current systems are designed to ..."feed" so to speak. This is threatening at almost all levels.
So for example, you see it for the lack of progress in bio diesel, i.e., from algae !!! I mean really, where does algae NOT grow ????? I mean really any place you have a waste treatment plant? PERFECT place to grow... ALGAE. The list is literally almost endless. Essentially biodiesel is as close to carbon neutral as anything will get !!! Even electricity as currently delivered will NEVER be carbon neutral. So there are tons of bogus areas in the food chain/s.
The so called problem is exacerbated by the fact they take this to mean current food chains are the MAGIC bullet gone "bad" and we need to replace it with.... another "GOOD" MAGIC BULLET. :sick: :lemon: The single magic bullet theory in effect got us into this intellectual box!!??? And we want to put ourselves into ANOTHER intellectual BOX !!??
Comparison numbers are a further threat. So I think that is one reason john wants the raw numbers and tries at EVERY turn to vanish them into "nothingness." Indeed the public is hard to fool, even as "the masses" are credited with not being the sharp knives in the collection. In his case add to that almost anyone else that disagrees with him being the comissar of environmental correctness.
I have not seen the media put numbers to the advantage of Prius hybrids over say the Corolla. So for example, on a 04 Civic (should be obvious a Corolla competitive product) it gets 38 mpg to say a 04 Prius 45 mpg. Clearly it is 7 mpg better. Just push a few more keys on the solar crack u lator and viola 18% better? Why? Because the hybrid battery/motor portion lets the gasoline engine be OFF app 18% more than the Civic. Since the cost was app 12k more, which incidently would have bought (almost) another Corolla/Civic at the time. Most folks would (and have) conclude/d things about cost effectiveness that would affect their own lives. So still got an 18% issue? Hey drive 18% LESS !!!!!!! Hello !!!???
Indeed statistics indicates Prius drivers drive (2000 miles more) 17 to 14% more, go faster and get more speeding tickets than the "dull masses" at large (avg driver 12,000 to 15,000 miles).....
Why are you responding to me when it was John that made the comments you are responding to?
quote Wards-
Expect Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd.’s first U.S.-market offering to make its showroom debut in first-quarter 2010.
In deference to the demanding nature of American consumers, Mahindra tweaked the yet-unnamed small pickup, which delayed by about three months its production launch, Ward’s learns.
Output of U.S.-specification models now is set for December at the auto maker’s assembly plant in Nasik, India, with showroom arrival scheduled for early to mid-February.
Meanwhile, Mahindra has shelved tentative plans to build the 2- and 4-door models, known internally as TR20 and TR40, respectively, in Ohio.
Domestic production “is something that is on the agenda to be pursued at another time,” says Larry Daniel, senior vice president-sales and marketing, of Mahindra’s U.S. arm, Global Vehicles U.S.A. Inc.
In a telephone interview from Global’s headquarters in Alpharetta, GA, Daniel tells Ward’s he expects Mahindra to “make an investment and employ some Americans” when industry volumes begin to trend upward.
Through June, small pickup sales in the U.S. totaled 131,290 units, a shortfall of 43.1% compared with the first six months of 2008, according to Ward’s data.
U.S.-specification truck closely resembles model launched last week in Australia.
Target volume for Mahindra reportedly is in the 50,000-unit range.
To make the truck more appealing to U.S. consumers, its front end was restyled and now features “jewel-like qualities,” adds Max Butler, Global vice president-marketing. The U.S.-specification truck closely resembles the model launched last week in Australia, he says.
The truck will be powered by a 140-hp 2.2L 4-cyl. diesel engine with projected combined city-highway fuel-economy of 30 mpg (7.8 L/100 km). Available with 2-wheel drive or 4-wheel drive, it also will feature a 6-speed automatic transmission and electronic stability control.
Despite a 2,633-lb. (1,194-kg) payload rating that rivals the fullsize Ford F-250 Super Duty – Ford Motor Co. data show four trim levels with payloads under 2,600 lbs. (1,170 lbs.) – Daniel anticipates outdoors enthusiasts will outnumber work-oriented buyers 3:1, with the latter demographic gravitating toward the 2-door model.
Steve Taylor, president of Ohio-based Taylor Automotive Group, is one of more than 300 dealers who look forward to selling Mahindra vehicles.
“We’re thinking we can lease (the pickup) to small businesses,” Taylor tells Ward’s, adding the diesel engine likely will become a selling feature as gasoline prices increase.
The per-gallon average price of diesel fuel in the U.S. was $2.58, $0.06 higher than the pump price of gas, according to the American Automobile Assn. But diesel engines are 20% to 30% more efficient than their gasoline-burning counterparts.
Particularly enthusiastic about the prospects of Mahindra SUV expected to arrive in mid- to late-2010, Taylor also is buoyed by results of an AutoPacific study that says American consumers are warm to an Indian-brand vehicle. “It’s a world market and it’s on a roll,” he says.
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The study findings are consistent with Mahindra’s vision of a customer base that comprises “independent thinkers,” Daniel says.
“They don’t really care about what people think about what they’re driving,” he adds. “They’re influencers. They’re not followers. I think they’ll be out there with their kayaks, and they’ll be out hiking and doing all the things (like putting) surfboards on top in California.”
Says Butler, noting Mahindra’s track record as India’s top truck maker: “This is a very robust product. It’s based on and built for an environment where it has to hold up very well.”
Daniel does not expect the names TR20 and TR40 to pass muster within Mahindra’s marketing ranks because of its similarity to Toyota Motor Corp.’s TRD trim levels. The Toyota Tacoma, along with the Nissan Frontier and Dodge Dakota, are among the trucks Mahindra is targeting as direct competitors.
Daniel favors the Australian nameplate: Pik Up. “That hit me and I like it,” he says, promising Mahindra’s pricing strategy will “blow away” the segment.
However, Daniel does not reveal numbers.-end
I'm curious about the Aussie-spec, if ours is to be similar.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Again with the avoiding of actual numbers. How many is "dry up"?
There's a big difference between the 5,072 and the 19,173.
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Is everyone here afraid of actual numbers?
Where's the actual real-world data?
Here's mine: 54.1 MPG as of 4,516 summer miles
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03 VW TDI (www.fueleconomy.gov, 46 vehicles) 46.5 mpg
03 Prius (www.fueleconomy.gov, 22 vehicles) 44.7 mpg
Resale value (Edmunds.com) on both are very good. Cost per mile driven (depreciation) has been .1122 cents 03 Prius vs .0753 cents 03 VW TDI. Prius is app 49% more per mile driven (depreciation)
With gas @ (corner store) $2.99 and D2 @ $2.75 gal. per mile driven is .06689, 03 Prius vs .0591, 03 VWTDI. or 13% greater per mile driven.
I have absolutely no problem with some one paying (losing) 49% more in depreciation (per mile driven) and 13% more for fuel. (per mile driven).
Since my short term goal is (another 100,000 miles) 200,000 miles, I can cite the numbers when I hit that or give you a current snap shot.
Here is mine for last 14 months. 14.77 MPG total 5507 miles driven.
Advantage mine. Safe, quiet comfort. Would I rather get 30+ MPG with a diesel Sequoia? You bet I would. Just not allowed in this gas guzzling society. If the 2010 Prius is no smoother, quieter than the 2009 Prius. Just not my cup of tea. I gave up rough riding noisy cars when I was able to afford better. To each his own. I spent $69 per month on gas last year. About 1% of my net income. I wish my water was as cheap as my gas bill. I pay 10 times more in property tax. So why should I give up safety and comfort for such a small savings in gas?
As far as Jetta TDI sales. They are what we get, which is a very limited supply. The diesel response was much greater than VW anticipated. Unlike Toyota, they must be unhappy with their sales as they are canceling their plans to build Prius in the USA.
San Diego dealers:
Jetta Sportswagen TDI 4 total for county
2010 Prius over 30 available
03 Prius ... 2 generations ago isn't the slightest bit constructive.
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I also left out the obvious (or maybe NOT so obvious), that someone has bought a new 09 Prius, I am still running the 03 TDI. So how much is a 03 Prius new and a new 09 Prius vs a 18,000 03 VW TDI ??? Of course this question will come up again when someone buys the next gen Prius and I continue to depreciate the 03 VW TDI :confuse:
It shows that after the initial hype wears off, the last VW TDI did in fact beat out the last Prius, contrary to widespread opinion.
Shows that the hybrid hype and diesel downplay were largely false premise.
Even more avoiding of actual numbers!
2008 Prius = 158,884
2007 Prius = 181,221
2006 Prius = 106,971
2005 Prius = 107,897
So, how exactly did you come to a "beat" conclusion?
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Not a Prius vs. Diesel topic. Don't turn this into a hybrid vs. diesel argument.
Avoid actual numbers all you want.
You do know that a hybrid could use a diesel engine, right?
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We went from talking about how the VW beat the Prius in terms of MILEAGE and you switched it to SALES numbers.
Which actually validated my point that the hybrid hype and diesel downplay was based on false premise, which would result in lesser sales.
You really are a spin-doctor. Nobody is avoiding them, you are not good with numbers.
The only thing you're pointing out that is misleading is your own understanding.
Huh? The very reason I push for ACTUAL NUMBERS is to prevent that.
You provide the detail and let people decide from themselves.
Also, we are back on sales, which was the original topic in the first place.
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Clean Diesel Continues to Fuel Volkswagen’s July Sales
-Over thirty percent of total sales were Clean Diesel TDI
-Government sponsored ‘Cash-for-Clunkers’ Program accounted for over 3,300 sales
HERNDON, Va., Aug. 3 /PRNewswire/ — Volkswagen of America, Inc. today announced July 2009 sales of 20,590 units, representing a 0.7 percent increase over July 2008.
Volkswagen’s award winning clean diesels, Jetta, Jetta SportWagen, and Touareg TDI, once again posted their best sales month since their re-launch with 6,320 units — accounting for more than 30 percent of total sales. The Jetta SportWagen for the third consecutive month posted its best sales month ever with sales of 2,415 units; clean diesel TDIs represented 81 percent of SportWagen sales, and 40 percent of Jetta sedan
sales.
“Volkswagen of America is extremely pleased by how well our clean diesel TDIs continued to sell throughout July, and by our highly successful first month of the government sponsored ‘Cash-for-Clunkers’ Program,” said Mark Barnes, Chief Operating Officer, Volkswagen of America, Inc. “It was not by accident that Volkswagen was able to perform so well in the government ‘Cash-for-Clunkers’ Program. Our dealers were well informed and fully trained on the rules of the program, our marketing was in place, and our product line of fuel efficient vehicles all contributed to a successful first month. I’m thrilled that our dealers were able to respond so well to the ‘Cash-for-Clunkers’ Program,” added Barnes.
Volkswagen of America, Inc.
link title
By the way, we both liked the GTI for our long frames to get in and out of. I would consider the Golf TDI when they arrive.
It is TRULY interesting how that works !!?? But hey if it works, it works.!!?? This (new) 2010 GTD sounds like the diesel version of the GTI (diesel hot rod) If it comes in the 2 door Cou'pe, I would be SEVERELY tempted !! The articles I have read about it illustrates a 4 door. (already have two 4 door diesels. so... not a ping, by any means) .
As an aside it would seem if they keep the diesel production up, they will even exceed the already higher than goal (25%) @ 30% to 30%+. PLUS. They have obviously done that with the JSW @ fully 40% diesel.
:shades:
the vw i miss is the rabbit diesel pickup!
I also miss the VW Rabbit PU with diesel. They were getting 50 MPG when Toyota and Honda only wished they could build a high mileage vehicle.
I have never seen this in press releases, but using the 03 MY lines as an example, they had (from recall) TDI's in Passat, NB, Golf, Jetta. To tell you the truth, I didn't give it much thought as to why they only had the 09 Jetta TDI (there is of course the TDI in Touareg). The main point, I just see it as a natural progression to start to bring TDI's out in the others models now the initial 50 state 09 Jetta TDI MY "release" has been on the market..
ON an admittedly OFF topic article written by a Georgetown University Professor link title, that brings into focus some "grand canyon" scale divides in (HYBRID) vision vs the logistics practicality of "implementation." UPSHOT: NOT (NYET) sustainable/sustainability.....
I did not see anything about how many years it took for a diesel to recover the initial extra cost...just that it was less than the Prius.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
ergo much higher tax VOLUMES might have been a "deterrent". So for example in CA, would you like 9.75% taxation on 12,000 dollars or 9.75% taxation on 40,000 dollars?? On the other side of the corollary: 3% on 12-15k or 15 to 20 % on 40k.??
I think the governmental policy wonks (at all levels) and the financial side (committees) of Congress realize that if they come out with real market examples of what Senator Charles Schumer of NY says is "da future," plug in electric hybrid, those actions have the potential to bankrupt and sour the concept. (plug in electric hybrid)
If one wants a real life example of DOA (dead on arrival) , research or goggle the CA legislature's 3% MANDATORY plug in electric new car sales legislation.
Canadian Chrysler dealer charged me almost $50 dollars including tax. I saw same filter on the E-bay for $35. Does anybody have access to cheaper ones? Please let me know.
However I see it like home grown (local demand based) and RENEWABLE AND carbon neutral, etc etc. You don't have to wait for millions to billions of years for "dinosaurs" to decompose and compress...
Indeed I have read estimates of the potential of up to 150,000 gals of biodiesel from algae per acre per year. But currently realistic targets might be
"We expect to produce 100,000 gallons (of vegetable oil) per acre per year,"...
link title
Indeed the process CONSUMES CO2, does not take away from food production, ( as as corn based ethanol), but ADDS to ethanol production, adds to "cattle" feed, produces OXYGEN and is capable of a MUCH shorter logistics production to delivery chain.
But you have to start somewhere, so how about 4000 gals of oil per acre? link title
Compare that to:
Gallons of Oil per Acre per Year
Corn . . . . . . . 15
Soybeans . . . .48
Safflower. . . . . 83
Sunflower . . . 102
Rapeseed. . . 127
Oil Palm . . . . 635
Micro Algae . .1850 [based on actual biomass yields]
link title
Micro Algae . .5000-15000 [theoretical laboratory yield]
Popular Mechanics "face off"
:P
But 1850 is amazing.
To state the utterly obvious, Congress needs to legislate, AND the regulatory maze needs to allow engine vendors/oemsto build products specified for use with bio diesel (B5 to B100). Anything less increases the chances of the endeavor being economically dis advantaged while being part of the solution to the nations "issues" BEFORE it even takes off.
...this is NOT a diesels vs hybrids discussion. This is everyone's last warning.
Understood?
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