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Diesels in the News

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  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    I can understand your frustration. Rather than fight it, since it seems to be a subject a lot of members want to talk about, how about a forum...Diesel vs Hybrid? Since there seems to be an endless number of forums, for all I know, there might already be one.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Another might be those considering diesels really want and like to see multiple comparisons, hybrids being one example. The list of diesel owners on this thread and in the US market is actually fairly small. (2% of the population is diesel and the overwhelming majority (75%) of those are so called (heavy) "light trucks" 2/3 series.)

    I personally am ok with diesels only. So all the host has to do is to see the relevance of a hybrid post to the main diesel thread and let it ride or remove. But I think the hosts are concerned about past very much used threads like "I Hate SUV's: Why Don't You" AND the fireworks that it sometimes generated.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There are several such threads that ended up read only. Sometimes it is difficult to maintain a civil debate. Here is one "read only" that lasted about a year and over 5000 posts. It did get heated at times.

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef7fe1d/0#MSG0
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    And that, unfortunately, is the reason... every attempt has essentially turned into a fight. That has been the case the whole 10+ years I've been on staff here.

    This discussion is specifically and intentionally about diesels - will there be ancillary comparisons? Of course. BUT, posting directly about hybrids or comparisons is off-topic and will start that fire all over again.

    Hybrids have their own forum at the vehicle-type level with over 20 separate make/model groups. Diesels have a sub-group within Pickups - until recently, that's where most diesel sales in the US had been - because comments about diesels are comparatively low. So it's important to keep focus on what's here.

    kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Diesel’s time has come, but is anybody ready?

    Of course the other side of it might be as some other posters have suggested, just adopt European BIN diesel standards, and let them import a higher percentage of diesels. !!??

    They have already done the "heavy lifting" so to speak, :blush:

    Nobody in America's Congressional and regulatory systems has made the connection that the air in Europe is actually pretty good, they use less fuel, yet the passenger vehicle fleets and the per capital miles are similar. In a very strange operative way, they have been and continue to operate on the premise that 24 mpg (gasser) is better than 50 mpg (diesel) (using gasser/diesel VW's as a example and metaphor),. Yet wonder why we use more fuel !!??

    Not to double talk, but I am clueless, why they are...clueless!!??
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As long as the Feds target diesels in their emissions tests they will have a rough time competing with mainstream gassers. When the Feds put an old fogey like Lutz back in at GM you know they will not offer diesels. I would be curious if even a small amount of that alternative energy money will be spent on biodiesel. Arguably the alternative with the best chance of succeeding.

    If VW keeps gaining US market share that suits me. I like VW as a company and my local dealer is excellent. Very friendly to me even though my VW was bought in another state. I hear rumblings that the Golf TDI will be here next month.

    The VW TDI tank wars are getting hot. The top mileage now is at 68.8 MPG for 10k miles. Not too bad, eh? Bet he don't drive as fast as you do. :blush:

    http://tdi.vw.com/leaderboard/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Even after 130,000 miles with turbo diesels, it still amazes me that one can post (whatever) numbers of one's chosing.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    In the American vehicle market, diesels and hybrids will be tied together as long as they are the only high-mileage option vehicles, which they are right now.

    Nothing can be done about that until EVs hit mainstream.

    Diesel play catch up in alternative fuel race with help of German automakers
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It is essentially the same thing I said about diesels. How can you buy diesel cars if they outlaw diesel cars and there are no diesel cars to... buy?

    So let's apply the obvious. How can you buy EV cars, if there are no EV's to ...buy!!

    Here are probably the major issues
    1. Normal emissions in manufacturing will continue.
    2. The fractional emissions (costs) to fully recharge on the grid will continue
    3. Operations in comparison will have negligible emissions
    4. Off grid recharging costs (solar etc) will fall precipitiously... close to "free" than RUG to PUG.

    So what do you think they are really afraid of, #3?

    So for example, RUG to PUG prices are 108% to 122% more expensive than D2 !!???

    (LIKE MODEL OF COURSE)
    using 03VW Jetta gassers @ 25 mpg, and TDI @ 49.

    Corner store store prices:

    RUG $2.95 per gal/25 mpg= .118 cents per mile driven

    PUG $3.15 per gal/25 mpg=.126 cents per mile driven,

    D2 $2.78 per gal/49 mpg= .0567 cents per mile driven
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Did you catch the electrfiying news? VOLT @230 mpg (not real world) and 40k ???This of course vs TDI of 50 mpg and 23k? This would take 381,000 miles to just B/E over a diesel.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Different market, cars for a different purpose.

    I can get a billion miles per gallon in a Volt in my commute, 23 round-trip miles a day, charging it every night for 40 cents. Never use an ounce of fossil fuel.

    People with a 70-mile highway commute are better off with a TDI.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed that is back [non-permissible content removed] ward. If one is going doing a 70 miles highway commute it only makes sense (BE, etc not considered) to do it in a vehicle that gets 230 mpg!? However as noted it still takes 381,000 miles to BE. So for the average Joe @ 12,000 to 15,000 miles per yea,r 31.75 to 25.4 years.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The 230 MPG number was for the EPA CITY CYCLE only.

    Not highway included.

    For a full "use all the gas" highway trip, Volt will probably get somewhere in the 50-60 MPG range.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    GM says it considers the Volt an electric vehicle. Using off-peak electric rates of 5 cents per kilowatt hour, Henderson said a 40-mile charge will cost 40 cents.

    Where does GM get these people? Where in the USA do you get off peak electric rates for residential. No place I have ever lived. They read the meter once a month and the more you use the higher the rate. Our cheapest rate is over 12 cents. It goes up dramatically when you use more than 342 KWH in a month. Topping at 35 cents per KWH for any usage above 586 KWHs. It is 35 cents per KWH that would be used to charge an EV at our house. Plus how do you charge a 16 KWH battery with only 8 KWHs of charging?

    This is making Diesel look better every day.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary, almost every utility company has a "Time Of Use" plan.

    My off-peak rates in Phoenix fluctuate from 5.29 cents to 7.12 cents, depending on the time of year.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    From what I can gather, I am app 500 miles to the north and the rates are app the same .

    So for example, unless we charge/recharge off line the electrical bill will be higher than sky high with the addition of the highest price level of electrical energy consumption. In effect it is punishment to go GREEN.

    If someone can post the KWH to D2 per gal conversion ratios, I can talk cents per mile to cents per mile. But untill that time, it strikes me as forcing me to buy D2 @ 2.85 (current today price) and the rest of the folks (like to you in Phoenix) getting it at 1.40 per gal or less !!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    MY electricity only goes higher from year to year. No fluctuation from one time of year to another. I could afford to keep my house cool with cheap coal fired electricity available in AZ. A true environmentalist would refuse to use that dirty electricity from out at four corners coal generation facility. :shades:

    At my electric rate the Volt will cost right at 14 cents per mile to operate on grid power.
    The current cost to drive a VW TDI is about 5.7 cents per mile. For people that do not get near free electricity from their utility the cost to drive a Volt will be prohibitive. If Chevy is counting on the most populace state to buy their new plug in they will have to hope none of the buyers owns a calculator.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Volt comes in at around 3 cents per mile.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "A true environmentalist would refuse to use that dirty electricity from out at four corners coal generation facility. "

    I'm not a "true environmentalist" and never have been.

    You won't find too many people living "off the grid" in the Phoenix area.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Volt comes in at around 3 cents per mile.

    You go ahead and believe what you like. It ain't the same for all users. If you can buy electricity for under 6 cents a KWH I am paying about 5 times more than you are for the privilege of living in an over regulated and over taxed state.

    At this time a VW TDI makes a lot more sense than any EV or plug in hybrid on the horizon.

    PS
    3 cents per mile is what most golf carts get with cheap electricity.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    mathematician, industrial engineer, CPA and electric specialist , and do you think your legislator could explain this to you? link title

    But this is just one rate schedule of 88 rate schedules for electrical link title

    TOTAL RATES
    Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh)
    Baseline Usage $0.11531 (R)
    101% - 130% of Baseline $0.13109 (R)
    131% - 200% of Baseline $0.25974 (I)
    201% - 300% of Baseline $0.37866 (I)
    Over 300% of Baseline $0.44098 (I)
    Total Minimum Charge Rate ($ per meter per day) $0.14784 ( )

    So just to get you started, how many KWH do YOU use?

    So it almost a no brainer that electrical charging for the car will put the KWH in the .26,.37 and .44 cent per kilowatt hour easily !!!

    Feel free to correct me at any part of this analysis.

    So if the electrical cars have a 16 KWH charger, the only question I would have now is what are the real miles you can go on a full charge? I will start off with the stated 40 miles per charge /16 kwh=.40 kwh per mile @ .44 cents per kwh is .176 cents per mile driven?

    Today's TDI filled @ 2.85 per gal/50mpg =.057 cents per mile. So electrical is 3.09 times more expensive than D2?

    So... how is everybody liking the per mile cost of D2?? :shades: ;)
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    And after the northeast blackout a few years ago and the annual rolling blackouts in California and other places, the grid has proven itself to be wonderfully reliable (he said dripping with deadly sarcasm). It also transfers the fuel cost/use from the individual vehicles and owners to everyone on the grid at the powerplant level.

    I'll stick with my Cummins :)

    Best to continue the EV conversation in one of the existing discussions in the Electric Vehicles or Chevy Volt forums.

    kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Has anyone considered one very obvious flaw in the electric car idea?

    How will all apartment/condo renters recharge their car? It's not as if there are electric plugs in apartment/condo parking lots.

    Furthermore, if there were, how would one keep obnoxious brats and teenagers from pulling your car's electric plug out of the socket as a prank? I doubt one's boss would be very understanding if one couldn't come into work because of it.

    ---

    Just a thought.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Not many renters/condo dwellers (except in the largest cities, where the charge problem will be solved before mass adoption of the technology) can afford a $40,000 car.

    Long before enough cars hit the market, the apartment complexes will have adapted a suitable solution.

    You will also have an alarm which would sound if the car was unplugged.

    Technology will solve all the minor issues like that.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    What about the, not-unknown, problem of power outages ? No power = no charging = not going anywhere. I know that you couldn't pump gas or diesel in those circumstances but the vast majority of, (all ?), gas/diesel vehicles will have some fuel on-board.

    Just a couple of other points from a picky Brit Diesel Driver :

    o A few posts ago there was a comment about EV's not using any hydrocarbon fuel. So, in the USA, is your grid electricity all from Hydro, Nuclear or Solar or does the "Elctro Fairy" magic it into the national grid ? Obviously you don't genrate from oil, coal or nat gas otherwise your EV would be using hydrocarbon fuel...............albeit indirectly. Anyone ever calculated how much, (say), coal is required to generate enough electricity to recharge one of these VOLT cars......factoring-in all the generation and transmission line losses, of course ? Perhaps one of the on-board engineers will rise to the challenge ?

    o My belief is that EV's will be rendered pointless by hydrogen fuel cell technology. I'd have a Honda Clarity FCX + home power station in a moment, if I could.

    o This thread seems to be wandering away from Diesels...............and I'm aiding and abetting, for which I apologise. ;)
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    but does anyone have any updates on the potential of lidht-duty diesels going into 1/2 ton pick-ups?
    I seem to remember a year ago or so Dodge was talking about getting a version of the 6cyl Cummins into their light duty.

    Does anyone have any insights?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Upshot: Cummins/DOE talks postponed till 2011.

    We are talking 5.0 Liter V8, 320 hp/500 # ft (305/6 cubic inches)link title

    According to this July 2009 article link title
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I have read much about the Volt and similar cars. What is the expected useful battery life of the main battery pack and how much does it cost to replace it should it fail?
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I spoke with the tech at the dealer I use and he said that Chrysler will be putting off the V-8 Cummins for several years. As to what several years are, he did not know.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    With the brown-outs we are having this summer in the Dallas, tx area I would not like to depend on a plug-in vehicle. I'll stick with my two diesels.
  • mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    Agree, here in Los Angeles (LADWP) I was able to get a time-of-use meter ($6 extra per month) by just asking. The DWP did a free energy audit and found that since I live in the San Fernando Valley (much hotter than the west side or downtown), have a pool, and 5-ton central A/C, a time-of-use meter would save me money. I love being able to run the A/C at night when the off peak rate is half of normal. I have a 2009 TDI and love it but, if I had an EV I would charge it overnight.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Thanks for your input....:)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So what is the so called "off peak cost" in cents per KWH? Or you can reference/cite the 1/88 tariff tables they have you on.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Must be nice to have the LA government subsidize your electric bill. My bill under your rate plan for last month would have been $94 less. That is what trying to go green will get you. I have to blame it on those with solar panels installed here in San Diego. Your rate for over 1000 KWH, is just half of ours for over 700 KWH per month. We also do not get a winter rate as you do. Pays to have friends in Sacramento. Thanks Ahnold you big dummy.

    http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/cms/ladwp012204.pdf

    PS
    I have contacted SDG&E. I do see they lower our top rate in the winter by 2 cents. Of course in the winter I never use that much electricity. Unless I was stuck with a PHEV.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Back to diesels, or else I'll tell you what my monthly electric bill is... ;)

    kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    This might be off topic, but I think it may be positive for diesel. What is your take?

    Toyota falling behind rivals in the race to go electric

    My take would be a plug in electric/ diesel will trump a RUG/PUG variant. Indeed what has not changed is the 20-40% D2 advantage over RUG/PUG.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Serious question:

    Are you insinuating that because other technologies are failing to make inroads, that this effect is good for diesel car proliferation?

    If you are thinking that, then:

    Is this not the same as Rudy Gay celebrating if Usain Bolt gets a hamstring injury which means he is out of the race and now Gay has a better chance to win?

    Why would you want to win a race only because your best competitor is out of the running?

    Can't you imagine a world where diesel, hybrids, and EVs of all kinds live happily in the market together and the proponents don't have to be uncivil towards the other technologies?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    UPSHOT: I do not see it the way that you have characterized it. So. yes and no to incorporate your POV into my response.

    I think you will acknowledge that the auto EXPERTS/pundits are forecasting that 9.6 M in 09 MY will be a SEVERE drop off (- minus 42%) from more "go go days" of 16.5 M MY sales. I am asking NO agreement here.

    On the other hand, 09 MY sales of 9.6 M will be absolutely stellar !!! By all accounts the stimulus in the auto market of the $3 B cash for clunkers however poorly conceived and executed DID stimulate new car sales. I did read in passing a min of 250,000 vehicles (per 1 B). The article states 450,000 new car sales = 1.8 B.

    Most dealers are SCARED to death the Fed.gov will NOT pay them the 3,500 to 4,500 as advertised. link title The nightmare is they will be holding the bag when the dust settles. An example nightmare? Pennies on the dollar for the $3,500 to $4,500 promised. I do not know this for sure, but I am almost certain it is a felony offense to offer vehicles taken under the program on the open market......

    So for future "stimulus" deals, make it so hard to get the monies as to approach not being economically feasible.

    So of course this is good for propaganda for President/Congress as they can lay claim to helping: 1. the "little" guy 2. the economy 3. the environment 4. create taxation. 5. generate taxable fees 6. Mom 7. apple pie 8. truth 9. justice... 10. the American way..... and probably more importantly 11. more massive dependence on the government

    Of course those "blood sucking" crooked dealers will be the fall guy, when they REFUSE to do money losing deals benefiting the "little guy". Good wrestling tv plot?

    So I have heard nor read of any plans of any other oem to jump into the diesel fray because Toyota is not hopping into the the plug in electric/gas) market for the next couple of years. One sidebar piece of news is the local NUMMI plant (Fremont, CA) is rumored to be closing their portion of the Corolla/Tacoma product line. Since GM pulled out of their portion making among other products the Pontiac VIBE, it would seem the (out go, ak, overhead) numbers are way too massive to keep the plant open

    With the (relative) success of VW TDI sales of over (so far) 30% of their planned MY09 production being diesel. their 40% goal in 2010 in the over all scheme of things seems a no brainer. This latest Toyota announcement would make VW goals almost a slam dunk. Further VW did not anticipate the literally overwhelming response to their popular JSW (Jetta Station Wagon) with 81% TDI !!! So it will be interesting to see how there 2010 game plan unfolds.

    Further, I really have never seen the Prius as a like for like competitor for the Jetta. It is really in the eyes of the one doing the weighing for his/her needs/wants, etc. Again for me it has ALWAYS been apples to pears to oranges comparisons. Very few people will evaluate a car solely on its utility for a (15,000 miles per year) daily commute.

    So for example in my case between a 03/04/05 Prius, 04/05Civic hybrid, 04/05Corolla, 04/05 Civic, the 04 Civic won hands down. (total (estimated) cost per mile driven)
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    67.9 MPG TDIRecord for highest mpg driving 48 contiguous states.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yeah, I really think folks have a hard time believing some of the points covered in your linked article. I/we even see this with folks that bought diesels AND have been driving them a while. The hardest thing to get in the groove with seems to be a treatise written by a www.tdiclub.com subscriber/member "Break in: Rules That Apply For The Life of The Car". Anyone can do a search on that site. Once one really understand the parameters, one can pretty much at will get the max mpg out of almost any circumstance.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    these guys are putting a VW TDI engine into an Insight hybrid and making it work.

    So far, only 92 MPG, so not that impressive YET. Some of the Insight hypermilers get that with a standard Insight.

    The Insight 1G
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Again same drill. LIke power (torque) and/or engine size diesel still has the 20-40% advantage.

    So if 50 mpg TDI's are vilified just think about 92 mpg ones !!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That car is being set up to go for some serious prize money. You don't think they are going to tell people the truth about the mileage before they enter. What is interesting is they are using Argonne labs invention for cleaning NoX. The system that should be used instead of that goofy urea crap. The best part is they don't have to use ethanol contaminated gas anymore. Just pure sweet smelling ULSD.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What are the odds on US getting the Polo? The Highline with a 1.2L TDI sounds like a great little car for running errands. It is a foot shorter than the Golf/Rabbit.

    With the DSG, I can see me driving one as long as it is fun.

    image
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I want this car. But, not, there are no plans to sell it in the U.S.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    that the rest of the world will get and we won't.

    Thanks again, California. It's obvious from how well that state is faring these days that how they look at things works really well. :mad:

    Or, perhaps not. ;)
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Smart money is on the down side for 2010 !!

    At this moment edmunds.com lists 24 models of diesels.link title

    15/24 (62.5%) are more... special purpose models.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    A firm maybe for 2011 ??? Report: VW Polo To Arrive in U.S. in 2011


    It would seem to me this will be the new literal standard for economy car (71 mpg) Makes my Honda Civic epa 29/38 look like a gas guzzler !!?? So using say 35 mpg, The VW Polo would get 103% better fuel mileage

    This MY 2009, the Civic is one of THE economy leaders. :blush:
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Here's some facts from the U.K.

    43.6% of all new cars are diesel.

    85% of all new cars are imported. 75% of U.K.-made cars are exported. :confuse:

    Amongst the best-performing cars for economy in U.K. are :

    SEAT Ibiza 1.4 Ecomotive TDi : 76.4mpg (based on VW Polo)

    Peugeot 308 HDi 90 : 62.7mpg

    Ford Mondeo 1.8 TDCi Econetic : 53.3mpg

    Skoda Octavia 1.9 TDi PD Estate : 55.4mpg (Based on current VW Golf)

    BMW 520d SE : 55.4mpg

    All figures are EU Combined Cycle in Imperial mpg so you'll need to x 0.77 to get to US mpg. Still decent figures, though. All are diesels, of course. :)
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