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2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I personally am ok with diesels only. So all the host has to do is to see the relevance of a hybrid post to the main diesel thread and let it ride or remove. But I think the hosts are concerned about past very much used threads like "I Hate SUV's: Why Don't You" AND the fireworks that it sometimes generated.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef7fe1d/0#MSG0
This discussion is specifically and intentionally about diesels - will there be ancillary comparisons? Of course. BUT, posting directly about hybrids or comparisons is off-topic and will start that fire all over again.
Hybrids have their own forum at the vehicle-type level with over 20 separate make/model groups. Diesels have a sub-group within Pickups - until recently, that's where most diesel sales in the US had been - because comments about diesels are comparatively low. So it's important to keep focus on what's here.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
Of course the other side of it might be as some other posters have suggested, just adopt European BIN diesel standards, and let them import a higher percentage of diesels. !!??
They have already done the "heavy lifting" so to speak,
Nobody in America's Congressional and regulatory systems has made the connection that the air in Europe is actually pretty good, they use less fuel, yet the passenger vehicle fleets and the per capital miles are similar. In a very strange operative way, they have been and continue to operate on the premise that 24 mpg (gasser) is better than 50 mpg (diesel) (using gasser/diesel VW's as a example and metaphor),. Yet wonder why we use more fuel !!??
Not to double talk, but I am clueless, why they are...clueless!!??
If VW keeps gaining US market share that suits me. I like VW as a company and my local dealer is excellent. Very friendly to me even though my VW was bought in another state. I hear rumblings that the Golf TDI will be here next month.
The VW TDI tank wars are getting hot. The top mileage now is at 68.8 MPG for 10k miles. Not too bad, eh? Bet he don't drive as fast as you do.
http://tdi.vw.com/leaderboard/
Nothing can be done about that until EVs hit mainstream.
Diesel play catch up in alternative fuel race with help of German automakers
So let's apply the obvious. How can you buy EV cars, if there are no EV's to ...buy!!
Here are probably the major issues
1. Normal emissions in manufacturing will continue.
2. The fractional emissions (costs) to fully recharge on the grid will continue
3. Operations in comparison will have negligible emissions
4. Off grid recharging costs (solar etc) will fall precipitiously... close to "free" than RUG to PUG.
So what do you think they are really afraid of, #3?
So for example, RUG to PUG prices are 108% to 122% more expensive than D2 !!???
(LIKE MODEL OF COURSE)
using 03VW Jetta gassers @ 25 mpg, and TDI @ 49.
Corner store store prices:
RUG $2.95 per gal/25 mpg= .118 cents per mile driven
PUG $3.15 per gal/25 mpg=.126 cents per mile driven,
D2 $2.78 per gal/49 mpg= .0567 cents per mile driven
I can get a billion miles per gallon in a Volt in my commute, 23 round-trip miles a day, charging it every night for 40 cents. Never use an ounce of fossil fuel.
People with a 70-mile highway commute are better off with a TDI.
Not highway included.
For a full "use all the gas" highway trip, Volt will probably get somewhere in the 50-60 MPG range.
Where does GM get these people? Where in the USA do you get off peak electric rates for residential. No place I have ever lived. They read the meter once a month and the more you use the higher the rate. Our cheapest rate is over 12 cents. It goes up dramatically when you use more than 342 KWH in a month. Topping at 35 cents per KWH for any usage above 586 KWHs. It is 35 cents per KWH that would be used to charge an EV at our house. Plus how do you charge a 16 KWH battery with only 8 KWHs of charging?
This is making Diesel look better every day.
My off-peak rates in Phoenix fluctuate from 5.29 cents to 7.12 cents, depending on the time of year.
So for example, unless we charge/recharge off line the electrical bill will be higher than sky high with the addition of the highest price level of electrical energy consumption. In effect it is punishment to go GREEN.
If someone can post the KWH to D2 per gal conversion ratios, I can talk cents per mile to cents per mile. But untill that time, it strikes me as forcing me to buy D2 @ 2.85 (current today price) and the rest of the folks (like to you in Phoenix) getting it at 1.40 per gal or less !!!
At my electric rate the Volt will cost right at 14 cents per mile to operate on grid power.
The current cost to drive a VW TDI is about 5.7 cents per mile. For people that do not get near free electricity from their utility the cost to drive a Volt will be prohibitive. If Chevy is counting on the most populace state to buy their new plug in they will have to hope none of the buyers owns a calculator.
I'm not a "true environmentalist" and never have been.
You won't find too many people living "off the grid" in the Phoenix area.
You go ahead and believe what you like. It ain't the same for all users. If you can buy electricity for under 6 cents a KWH I am paying about 5 times more than you are for the privilege of living in an over regulated and over taxed state.
At this time a VW TDI makes a lot more sense than any EV or plug in hybrid on the horizon.
PS
3 cents per mile is what most golf carts get with cheap electricity.
But this is just one rate schedule of 88 rate schedules for electrical link title
TOTAL RATES
Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh)
Baseline Usage $0.11531 (R)
101% - 130% of Baseline $0.13109 (R)
131% - 200% of Baseline $0.25974 (I)
201% - 300% of Baseline $0.37866 (I)
Over 300% of Baseline $0.44098 (I)
Total Minimum Charge Rate ($ per meter per day) $0.14784 ( )
So just to get you started, how many KWH do YOU use?
So it almost a no brainer that electrical charging for the car will put the KWH in the .26,.37 and .44 cent per kilowatt hour easily !!!
Feel free to correct me at any part of this analysis.
So if the electrical cars have a 16 KWH charger, the only question I would have now is what are the real miles you can go on a full charge? I will start off with the stated 40 miles per charge /16 kwh=.40 kwh per mile @ .44 cents per kwh is .176 cents per mile driven?
Today's TDI filled @ 2.85 per gal/50mpg =.057 cents per mile. So electrical is 3.09 times more expensive than D2?
So... how is everybody liking the per mile cost of D2?? :shades:
I'll stick with my Cummins
Best to continue the EV conversation in one of the existing discussions in the Electric Vehicles or Chevy Volt forums.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
How will all apartment/condo renters recharge their car? It's not as if there are electric plugs in apartment/condo parking lots.
Furthermore, if there were, how would one keep obnoxious brats and teenagers from pulling your car's electric plug out of the socket as a prank? I doubt one's boss would be very understanding if one couldn't come into work because of it.
---
Just a thought.
Long before enough cars hit the market, the apartment complexes will have adapted a suitable solution.
You will also have an alarm which would sound if the car was unplugged.
Technology will solve all the minor issues like that.
Just a couple of other points from a picky Brit Diesel Driver :
o A few posts ago there was a comment about EV's not using any hydrocarbon fuel. So, in the USA, is your grid electricity all from Hydro, Nuclear or Solar or does the "Elctro Fairy" magic it into the national grid ? Obviously you don't genrate from oil, coal or nat gas otherwise your EV would be using hydrocarbon fuel...............albeit indirectly. Anyone ever calculated how much, (say), coal is required to generate enough electricity to recharge one of these VOLT cars......factoring-in all the generation and transmission line losses, of course ? Perhaps one of the on-board engineers will rise to the challenge ?
o My belief is that EV's will be rendered pointless by hydrogen fuel cell technology. I'd have a Honda Clarity FCX + home power station in a moment, if I could.
o This thread seems to be wandering away from Diesels...............and I'm aiding and abetting, for which I apologise.
I seem to remember a year ago or so Dodge was talking about getting a version of the 6cyl Cummins into their light duty.
Does anyone have any insights?
We are talking 5.0 Liter V8, 320 hp/500 # ft (305/6 cubic inches)link title
According to this July 2009 article link title
http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/cms/ladwp012204.pdf
PS
I have contacted SDG&E. I do see they lower our top rate in the winter by 2 cents. Of course in the winter I never use that much electricity. Unless I was stuck with a PHEV.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
Toyota falling behind rivals in the race to go electric
My take would be a plug in electric/ diesel will trump a RUG/PUG variant. Indeed what has not changed is the 20-40% D2 advantage over RUG/PUG.
Are you insinuating that because other technologies are failing to make inroads, that this effect is good for diesel car proliferation?
If you are thinking that, then:
Is this not the same as Rudy Gay celebrating if Usain Bolt gets a hamstring injury which means he is out of the race and now Gay has a better chance to win?
Why would you want to win a race only because your best competitor is out of the running?
Can't you imagine a world where diesel, hybrids, and EVs of all kinds live happily in the market together and the proponents don't have to be uncivil towards the other technologies?
I think you will acknowledge that the auto EXPERTS/pundits are forecasting that 9.6 M in 09 MY will be a SEVERE drop off (- minus 42%) from more "go go days" of 16.5 M MY sales. I am asking NO agreement here.
On the other hand, 09 MY sales of 9.6 M will be absolutely stellar !!! By all accounts the stimulus in the auto market of the $3 B cash for clunkers however poorly conceived and executed DID stimulate new car sales. I did read in passing a min of 250,000 vehicles (per 1
Most dealers are SCARED to death the Fed.gov will NOT pay them the 3,500 to 4,500 as advertised. link title The nightmare is they will be holding the bag when the dust settles. An example nightmare? Pennies on the dollar for the $3,500 to $4,500 promised. I do not know this for sure, but I am almost certain it is a felony offense to offer vehicles taken under the program on the open market......
So for future "stimulus" deals, make it so hard to get the monies as to approach not being economically feasible.
So of course this is good for propaganda for President/Congress as they can lay claim to helping: 1. the "little" guy 2. the economy 3. the environment 4. create taxation. 5. generate taxable fees 6. Mom 7. apple pie 8. truth 9. justice... 10. the American way..... and probably more importantly 11. more massive dependence on the government
Of course those "blood sucking" crooked dealers will be the fall guy, when they REFUSE to do money losing deals benefiting the "little guy". Good wrestling tv plot?
So I have heard nor read of any plans of any other oem to jump into the diesel fray because Toyota is not hopping into the the plug in electric/gas) market for the next couple of years. One sidebar piece of news is the local NUMMI plant (Fremont, CA) is rumored to be closing their portion of the Corolla/Tacoma product line. Since GM pulled out of their portion making among other products the Pontiac VIBE, it would seem the (out go, ak, overhead) numbers are way too massive to keep the plant open
With the (relative) success of VW TDI sales of over (so far) 30% of their planned MY09 production being diesel. their 40% goal in 2010 in the over all scheme of things seems a no brainer. This latest Toyota announcement would make VW goals almost a slam dunk. Further VW did not anticipate the literally overwhelming response to their popular JSW (Jetta Station Wagon) with 81% TDI !!! So it will be interesting to see how there 2010 game plan unfolds.
Further, I really have never seen the Prius as a like for like competitor for the Jetta. It is really in the eyes of the one doing the weighing for his/her needs/wants, etc. Again for me it has ALWAYS been apples to pears to oranges comparisons. Very few people will evaluate a car solely on its utility for a (15,000 miles per year) daily commute.
So for example in my case between a 03/04/05 Prius, 04/05Civic hybrid, 04/05Corolla, 04/05 Civic, the 04 Civic won hands down. (total (estimated) cost per mile driven)
So far, only 92 MPG, so not that impressive YET. Some of the Insight hypermilers get that with a standard Insight.
The Insight 1G
So if 50 mpg TDI's are vilified just think about 92 mpg ones !!!
With the DSG, I can see me driving one as long as it is fun.
Thanks again, California. It's obvious from how well that state is faring these days that how they look at things works really well. :mad:
Or, perhaps not.
At this moment edmunds.com lists 24 models of diesels.link title
15/24 (62.5%) are more... special purpose models.
It would seem to me this will be the new literal standard for economy car (71 mpg) Makes my Honda Civic epa 29/38 look like a gas guzzler !!?? So using say 35 mpg, The VW Polo would get 103% better fuel mileage
This MY 2009, the Civic is one of THE economy leaders.
43.6% of all new cars are diesel.
85% of all new cars are imported. 75% of U.K.-made cars are exported. :confuse:
Amongst the best-performing cars for economy in U.K. are :
SEAT Ibiza 1.4 Ecomotive TDi : 76.4mpg (based on VW Polo)
Peugeot 308 HDi 90 : 62.7mpg
Ford Mondeo 1.8 TDCi Econetic : 53.3mpg
Skoda Octavia 1.9 TDi PD Estate : 55.4mpg (Based on current VW Golf)
BMW 520d SE : 55.4mpg
All figures are EU Combined Cycle in Imperial mpg so you'll need to x 0.77 to get to US mpg. Still decent figures, though. All are diesels, of course.