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Diesels in the News

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Comments

  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    I'm not sure if it is still possible with all the emissions controls on modern diesels, but some people I know used to cut heavy-duty diesel fuel with kerosene, benzene, even gasoline in the winter to prevent gelling.

    I'll bet on an MB they would not cover it under warranty if they found out you were running it on anything other than 100% highway diesel.

    How much would say 10% gasoline in a diesel fuel mix hurt it? Fuels are hydrocarbon mixtures anyway, there is no specific 'diesel' molecule. Just curious if anyone has references.


    Absolutely right. It certainly was an old trick to get diesels running in cold weather when diesel fuel would form wax crystals. Modern diesel fuel has a much lower wax-point and this is no longer a problem. The wax is simply refined out, (and is a fairly financially-attractive by-product, as is the suphur removed from fuels).

    Modern diesel engines have very tightly toleranced pumps and injection kit that relies on the natural lubricity of the fuel to keep working, (vs virtually nil with gasoline). This, as I understand it, is the crux of the problem although even then it is very seldom an instantly catastrophic event - despite the manfrs claims to the contrary. Still, the answer is simple - don't put gasoline through a modern diesel engine.

    As a public service announcement I would also advise against putting gasoline through your GE or RR jet engines; for aviation use anyway. You may not walk away from that one and don't even think about a warranty claim. :)
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    A neighbor of mine inadvertedly put 3 liters of gas in his empty E60 5-Series tank (that is, he started pumping until he realized the fuel was gas, not diesel). He phoned BMW dealer and was advised to fill up the tank to its 60-liter capacity; with such a small amount of gas (about 3%) he would start the engine with no worries. This was 5 years ago and the direct injection turbo engine runs perfectly up to date.

    Yet, my neighbor never blamed diesel engines but himself for the mistake. :sick:
    To each, its own.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Beware of fueling water in gas engines, too. They may drink some amount of alcohol, but water is highly dangerous to their health!

    ;)

    Regards,
    Jose
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Thanks for the clarification. Seems the oil industry gets a lemon and makes lemonade with the ULSD mandate. I did not think about them selling the paraffin and sulfur.

    Today's high tech autos are not very forgiving on most of the fluids put in. There are people that have had dealers put the wrong fluids in the transmission, engine, & Power steering. Anyone of which can cost thousands down the road.

    Putting the wrong fuel or fluid is strictly human error. Has Nothing to do with design. You want an engine you can run about anything in get an old diesel tractor.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Oops, sorry I left that out of my warning !! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • dmax06dmax06 Member Posts: 4
    Several months ago there was talk about a 4.5L Duramax for use in the Silverado/Sierra 1500 series trucks. It was supposed to come out in the 2010 model year. Has anyone heard anything since? Or did GM's financial problems nix this one?
  • agrawalagrawal Member Posts: 49
    UPDATE: MB dealer want to remove the tank 2hr. clean and wipe 1hr. put the tank back 2 hr. diagnoses 1 hr. total 6 hr to fix the mistake. Does it really need to be dropped or you can just remove fuel thru fuel lines???????? Diagnoses of what engine did not get cranked. So here I am with a simple mistake and big bill and MB is of no help they are going with dealer, what ever dealer want to do is right.
  • mark_cmark_c Member Posts: 8
    Since it was never started, why couldn't the fuel be siphoned out, tank refilled with 10 liters (arbitrary #) of diesel to mix with what ever is left, then that siphoned out and then the tank filled up with fresh diesel? :confuse: Would that remove most all of the gasoline left in the tank? Guess it depends how the tank is shaped and where the siphon hose could reach (which is best to remove the tank to tip it up and drain it out).

    I see your point though, putting gas in a diesel is a mistake I expect happens a lot and so it shouldn't be this involved and expensive to correct. I would expect MB to have designed the fuel tank so gasoline could be easily removed when it does happen. Perhaps some kind of drain at the lowest part of the fuel tank to make it easy to remove all of the fuel without having to remove the fuel tank.

    Think of it this way, you saved a ton of money by not starting the car :D
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Back in the 80's I used to mix a gallon or so of gasoline with a full tank of diesel to keep the waxing and freezing down in the winter. This was a Mercedes 240 D and never had any ill effects. Maybe the new diesels are more finicky?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • agrawalagrawal Member Posts: 49
    Just got the car back from shop after a week. They took the both sending unit out, wiped the tank, flushed the fuel lines. Does all these work needed with new technology is a question. MB would not comment. sure should not cost $724 shop bill, full tank of fuel, and towing.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    most underappreciated new cars

    1. Volkswagen Jetta TDI. Better than a Prius in every way except fuel mileage by a tiny amount, and its lower price still gives it the overall cost advantage for decades.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    10 MPG is a "tiny" amount?

    To think that Jetta TDI doesn't make the next emission level requirement Tier-III (in 2011) and Prius makes it by a wide margin, already.
    .
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    To think that Jetta TDI doesn't make the next emission level requirement Tier-III (in 2011) and Prius makes it by a wide margin, already.

    The Prius is still far from as clean as CARB is proposing. They want nothing less than ZEV. Even a PHEV Prius will not be close to that. It is all a game of diminishing returns. So enjoy what you consider to be a reasonable vehicle while you can.

    10 MPG in the city is nothing to give up for a much finer handling vehicle with higher quality interior and exterior design and materials. Plus Toyota needs to address their runaway acceleration issues before they kill a lot more people.

    Make mine diesel!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Don't try to change focus. MPG was overall. Emissions were countrywide.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not sure how cognizant you are with US emissions politics. CA sets the standards for the rest of the Country. As should be obvious by EPA changes aligned with CARB and Supreme Court decisions concerning GHG. As far as mileage. A Jetta TDI will match a Prius in highway mileage any day of the week. And probably surpass at realistic highway speeds especially in the colder months. The Jetta TDI currently holds the records for long haul touring.

    Get back to us when Prius goes 9500+ miles around the USA covering every one of the 48 states at better than 67.9 MPG. Flat land mileage records are meaningless.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Get back to "me" when a TDI can go 110 MPG+ on a tank.

    Your post again points out the fact that "no one car is perfect for EVERY situation" and again it promotes the need for a "diesel electric hybrid car" which would give the BEST of BOTH worlds.

    Are you listening, VW? Audi? MB?

    We want/need a commercially viable diesel/electric 5-passenger hybrid sedan.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You want a diesel/hybrid. I want less complexity not more. I can get 99 MPG with my Sequoia going down hill. That Prius 110 MPG was a bogus test. With a PHEV. Which is not sold anywhere in the World. There are dozens of diesel vehicles sold all over the world that will kick tail on the Prius for mileage. Until another company comes up to the plate with a long distance record, the Jetta TDI holds it. One tank records are suspect at best. Pointing out the Prius being better in stop and go LA traffic is not valid for most US drivers.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Japanese Prius drivers have consistently gotten over 100 MPG in their normal commutes. But this is not about that.

    We need a diesel hybrid which excels at city AND highway mileage.

    Heck, Chrysler did it in a concept car more than 12 years ago - the technology IS available.

    But I guess the economics are still questionable.

    And we know, it's always about the almighty dollar.
  • 104wb104wb Member Posts: 38
    Can you elaborate on what you know about Tier-III? Tier-II goes all the way to zero emissions (bin1). Seems like you can't emit less than zero... Does Tier-III regulate new 'pollutants' like CO2?
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Last I saw is that the new Duramax is on the shelf indefinitely, and maybe the technology is for sale. GM spent tens of millions on development. With World suppliers like Bosch, GE, Argonne Labs, Borg-Warner, Garrett, Mahle, and Delphi ready to help you have to wonder how much their tech is worth.
  • repoman1repoman1 Member Posts: 64
    What will all the tree hugging envinromental activitists EV lovers do when there is no electricity to charge their zero emissions vehicle? According to the short piece below, from Automative Magazine, as few as 3 EV's in one neighborhood will overload the grid.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Could electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids tax our existing power grid to the point of failure? According to Peter Darbee, CEO of the Pacific Gas & Electric Corporation, the answer is yes. As few as 3 EVs in a single neighborhood could "overwhelm the circuits."

    According to Darbee, a single vehicle drawing power from a 220-volt outlet is akin to adding another house to the grid. Darbee also expects EV owners to plug in at similar times, especially if they're returning home during typical rush hours.

    "You would create a peak load on top of the peak load," he said. "What happens if three to five vehicles show up in one neighborhood? You're going to overwhelm the circuits."
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Oh, so many disputable points:

    1. Adding a plug-in car to the grid is equal to about a third of a house. And not many people are going to have an "extra" 220 volt plug in the garage - most have 1, and their dryer is using it. Automakers will provide us with 110 V charging cars.

    2. Like anything else new, early adopters will have to be "trained" to plug their cars in later in the evening, rather than when they first get home.

    3. Automakers are already planning for this: Ford's new vehicle-to-grid software program allows the driver to "to accept a charge only during off-peak hours between midnight and 6 a.m. when electricity rates are cheaper, or when the grid is using only renewable energy such as wind or solar power." So not only could you minimize your electricity costs by charging only when its least expensive, but you could also minimize your CO2 emissions (if you don't already get 100% of your electricity from green power, that is).

    4. There already pilot systems in place where the electric cars FEED BACK INTO THE GRID during peak hours, then start re-charging themselves after peak hours.

    5. The main thing is that electric cars will NOT "boom" immediately upon the release of the first vehicles. The grid, software, and battery hardware will have time to "catch up" before the number of electric or PHEV cars reaches critical mass in regard to the grid. They are not going to sell a million cars the first year. If they sell 50,000 over the first year or two I would be surprised.

    Worry not your pretty little heads about electric cars overwhelming the grid. That ain't gonna happen.

    "I got 99 problems and the grid ain't one."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the CEO of PG&E is better qualified to answer the questions on load. You have a lot of pie in the sky optimism about alternative energy. It is not making much headway in the market place. Not everyone is going to be satisfied with an 8 hour charge time. Many of the PHEV kits for the Prius are 220 Volt. The bragging points many have made including yourself is quick charging in as little as 10 minutes. The shorter the time the bigger the load. Charging a 16KWH battery in 3 hours equal to running about 3 large AC units at the same time. More than the average house uses at any given time. It would triple my electric bill. As you know we do not get the illusive NIGHT RATES in San Diego. EVs are not going to be practical in my area unless a person installs a large solar array and charges during the day. $40K for the EV econobox and $30k for the solar array. That is about 30 years driving a Diesel SUV for me. I don't expect to be around that long.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Let's move this out of diesel to this forum where it oughta be....
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    2010 Golf TDI

    Need more Golf TDI!
  • webmartianswebmartians Member Posts: 4
    I must post a warning, however... Mahindras in Australia have not had a stellar reputation for crash safety.

    ...and any vehicle that is not properly backed up by a diligent dealer network (parts) has some significant hurdles whether or not its engineering is good.
  • agrawalagrawal Member Posts: 49
    Every new manufacturer entering in US market will have some trouble in beginning when dealer network is short listed. As for parts, look at BMW 760 or any high end model some time they have to wait to get the parts from Germany. My friend sold 760 after a year because of part trouble all the time.
  • dworthendworthen Member Posts: 14
    I don't see anybody posting on the kia sorento diesel hybrid, that was at the 2009 frankfurt auto show. It is now being road tested in europe. I have a question for anybody who can answer. What's the difference between euro-v diesel passenger car standards and the eqiuvalent u.s. epa standards? ie ppm, co. so2, and so on. How much difference is there that keeps their diesels from meeting our govt's standards. By all means, read between the lines.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have tried to get the exact data that you are looking for. It seems that EPA/CARB is always one step ahead of the Euro emissions. And one step behind the EU on quality of the fuel. Especially ULSD. There is a chance they may come closer together some day. For now we just have to wish for high mileage diesel vehicles to reach the lofty heights set by CA for the rest of the World to build to. Unfortunately MPG is not in the criteria for cleaner air. Even though lower CO2 is one of the benefits of higher MPG. Keep in mind that gasoline is still a byproduct that the oil companies need to get rid of when refining crude oil. We are stuck with gasoline for as long as we have petroleum based fuel.
  • dworthendworthen Member Posts: 14
    It does appear that the EU rates pollution by km driven. That sorento diesel hybrid makes 119g/km of co2. I think it's in testing to tweak the drive train and software. It may go into production in 2011. We probably won't see it. Kia's keeping most of the info close to the chest. What I find strange is that very few people are talking this vehicle or concept up! Kia just spent 1.2B dollars on a new plant in georgia to produce the new sorento. From what I've read 90% of the vehicle content will be produced within a 25 mile radius of the plant. Maybe we'll get to see more of the diesel hybrid at the L.A. auto show.
    http://www.kia-world.net/index.php/2009/09/15/kia-sorento-diesel-hybrid/
    Here's a link to one of the articles.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    No info on the Sorrento diesel hybrid, I'm afraid. Yes, the EU does, indeed, rate CO2 output on km driven : gm/km as previously stated.

    Here's some comparisons :

    My '06 Volvo S60 D5 : 199 gm/km (that's a 2.4 Turbodiesel 185bhp)

    VW Polo 1.4 TDi Bluemotion ; 99

    Smart ForTwo 0.8D : 88

    Toyota Yaris 1.4 D-4D : 109

    Toyota Prius 1.5 gasser hybrid : 104

    Ford Fiesta 1.6 TDCi : 110

    Ford Focus 2.0 TDCi (136bhp) : 144

    Audi A3 2.0 TDi 170bhp : 148

    Audi Q7 3.0 TDi : 260

    BMW 335D : 177 (282bhp)

    BMW 330i gasser : 173 (268bhp)

    BMW 120D : 128

    Jaguar XF 3.0D : 179

    Lexus IS 220D : 148

    Vauxhall/Opel Astra 1.9 CDTi : 149

    Cadillac CTS 3.6 gasser : 264

    Corvette ZO6 : 350 (not exactly a surprise !)

    MINI Cooper 1.6D : 109

    Rolls Royce Phantom : 377 :shades: not bad considering..............

    So, 119gm/km for a small diesel hybrid is just not that exciting. :(
  • 104wb104wb Member Posts: 38
    Standard Year NOx PM
    pre-reg 1974 2.25 1.0
    CA Tier1 2003 0.37278 0.049704
    Euro4 2005 0.25 0.025
    Euro5 2008 0.2 0.005
    CA ULEV 2003 0.18639 0.024852
    Japan 2005 2005 0.14 0.013
    Tier2Bin8 2006 0.125 0.0125
    Japan'09&Euro6 2009 0.08 0.005
    Tier2Bin5 2008 0.043491 0.006213

    I'm sorry, I couldn't get this to format at all. The comparison is NOx and PM in grams per mile. These are the only two of the regulated emissions where diesels are not superior to gasoline engines (HC, CO, etc. are already better for the diesel). Tier2Bin5 is federal, but corresponds to one of the CA levels, basically 'price of entry' into the CA market, and the 'me too' states. Any of these recent regs are a order of magnitude improvement from where we were in the '70s. The differences between recent Euro, Japan, US regs are peanuts compared to where we came from (plot them out x-y, include the pre-regulation values, and the need for US regs to differ from Europe's looks very silly). Japan wisely commonizes with Euro regs; Japan '09 and Euro 6. Our Tier2Bin5 is still more strict on NOx than Euro6 (comes out in 2012?), so: no diesels for you!
  • 104wb104wb Member Posts: 38
    grams per kilometer, not grams per mile...
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... The engine is expected to be seen by many people as a replacement for a six cylinder Diesel. Go to: http://autoblog.com
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    20th B-Day of TDI @ Audi

    Already 20 years of TDI, wow!
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    A few weeks ago, I met a person who works for Ford Motor Company (FoMoCo). This person is in a position to know where FoMoCo is going with their vehicles and I was told that hybrids are just a temporary fix. FoMoCo is working to embrace hydrogen power as well as diesel power in the future.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Yes, that's pretty much common knowledge, that hybrids are merely filling a gap until smarter, better technology can replace the hybrid idea.

    Hybrids as we know them today will slowly go away. New forms like the Volt and pure electric and higher-tech diesels will own the roads in a decade or so.

    Hydrogen? Doubtful that it will ever be a huge player. Technology needs to make huge jumps to get hydrogen into the affordable realm.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I find hydrogen power to be scary. I see these cars as the Hindenburg on four wheels.

    The concept of pure electric is intriguing but the range is still too short, the cost too high, and long term durability is still an issue. Plug-in and pure electric are a lovely thought but as long as we still mostly use fossil fuels to make electricity, then the carbon footprint of these vehicles will still be a problem.
  • repoman1repoman1 Member Posts: 64
    "Plug-in and pure electric are a lovely thought but as long as we still mostly use fossil fuels to make electricity, then the carbon footprint of these vehicles will still be a problem. "

    Cap and trade will double the cost of electricity in 2-4 years, so a diesel or even a small gasser will be cheaper to drive than a plug-in. How's that for "hope and change" ?
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Ironically, in the big picture, hydrogen is safer than gas or Diesel. In a crash, and fuel container leak, gas and Diesel accumulate on the ground and hydrogen rapidly raises up and safely away. Of course there will be frightening exceptions. BTW, the aluminized paint on the Hindenburg caused most of the long term (in comparison) length of the famous fire.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    "Hope and Change"? You are being funny.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    My concern is if there is a spark at the time of the accident and when the hydrogen storage ruptures, kaboom, and many things will rise quickly.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "upsetting all the Priuses" - all the Priuses on the car show floor were seen to be shedding tears from their wiper blade washer outlets.

    :)
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    It is funny how the press plays up the rivalry between hybrid and diesel.

    The more alternative powertrains the better, bring them on!

    I'd love to see more natural gas, hybrid, gas and diesel offerings. We need choices.

    Regarding diesel, the best thing that could happen would be U.S.A. and Europe adopting equivalent emissions and safety regulations. With all the talk about free trade and global companies, the mismatched regulations show the talk is just a bunch of hot air. Heck, the Chicken Tax tariff is still in effect!
  • oli1oli1 Member Posts: 33
    I.ve looked at both cars and found the Audi screwed together better. Now other than price which would be the better car?
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    You can now buy your Audi Q7 with the 6.0 litre V12 TDi. 493bhp/737lbft and 0-62mph in 5.5secs commands a lot of respect, but why would you ? ;)

    Here in the UK it retails for £95k and up...........circa $150k ??? :surprise:
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    If I lived in Europe, I'd give the A8 4.2 diesel a glance.

    I agree with you that the V12 diesel is pretty impressive, and that much $$ for a Q7 is just outrageous.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    If I lived in Europe, I'd give the A8 4.2 diesel a glance.

    Amen to that. Here's some numbers :

    A8 4.2 V8 FSi ; 345bhp, 324lbft, 0-62mph = 6.1 secs, 25.9mpg combined EU.

    A8 4.2 V8 TDi : 322, 480, 6.1, 30.1 that's a lot of torquey things.

    The Tdi sells for circa £3k more.

    Bit of a no-brainer, really. :shades:

    My neighbour has recently taken delivery of an A5, (S5), 4.2 V8 FSi that shows these numbers : 349, 324, 5.1, 22.8 and sounds glorious. It's a company car and replaces his A6 3.0 TDi. Guess he's not too concerned about economy as he's not paying the bills - but his tax bill must be pretty scary. :cry:
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