Diesels in the News

ruking1

There were some funny pictures in the local rag showing CA legislators that stayed anyway, legislators giving other legislators massages, sleeping in the legislative chambers, etc. !!!! I was thinking: gee that must be rough when they have to put in a 6 hour day !!!

winter2

I like a good massage . Got any names?

Six hours a day? And for what? To create more restrictive rules based on outdated studies that no longer apply to current technology or fuels. A good use for our tax dollars. Here in the Peoples Republic of Maryland, they are not quite that stupid, but they are heading in that direction.

gagrice

The California syndrome is like a cancer. It has spread across the USA. It is not happy until the local and state governments are completely bankrupt from wasteful spending and over regulation. I would like to think it was well meaning people in CARB. It just does not add up to anything more than sheer stupidity.

ruking1

Send em over. They'll put em through the equivalent of legislative K-12. They'll make em dumb enough to graduate.

winter2

Problem is that there is not money. Everyone is bankrupt, financially as well as morally. However, I will keep your offer in mind.

roland3

... It's about time. Some news (Google News) from Argonne's sole licensee, Integrated Fuels Technology, of Seattle. Their catalyst cost one third less than a urea system, and needs no maintenance for the life of the vehicle. On top of that a typical urea system has a five percent total fuel penalty, (including urea), while IFT's has only a one percent penalty. The company says they are a year behind the 2010 regs as far as having a road ready installation kit.

gagrice

Hopefully someone sees the potential before a bunch of money is wasted on Urea dispensing systems. I have just about given up on any of the new Diesel V6 SUVs. I am watching for a good buy on a 2007-08 ML320 CDI with low miles. They are legal in all 50 states with 7500 miles on them. I did go look at the Tiguan from VW. They may bring that SUV to the states with the same engine as the Jetta. A friend has the gas version and loves it. May be a bit small for my tastes.

PS
VW has the Touareg V6 TDI priced on Edmund's. The dealer was not sure when he would see them. They are using that goofy Urea system also. CARB just has a way of screwing up the works. What a bunch of losers.

roland3

... All the SCR/urea inevitable debacle brings up a rather obvious question (well, obvious to me). Why has the largest manufacturer of mining and construction equipment on Earth dropped out of the on-highway engine business ? Cat have to drop a disclaimer here: this is strictly my conjecture here. Well, of course Caterpillar can. I think Cat will only stay out of the on-highway business for two or three years. By that time the Argonne, and GE-Tenneco technology (and maybe more) will have many entities looking like fools. All the rest of the engine manufacturers will be reeling (with the exception of International/Navistar) with all the customers they have alienated, and CARB and EPA might even have more realistic regs, or maybe the state(s) and Federal government will have an emergency ban on ammonia systems. Gov(s) keep in mind Barrack has warned you to spend wisely. Maybe you ought to go out to lunch with somebody from Argonne.

gagrice

Have they started using urea in any of the PU truck engines from the D3?

yesdiesel1

For those of you that have not seen the McCluggage blog on Autoweek take a look she makes a lot of sense.
How can anyone other then recent CA high school grads believe that a car that gets 67 MPG will cost more to run then a car that gets 35 MPG ? Check out the Ford Fiesta RUG v D2

ruking1

Continuing to burn RUG to PUG instead of D2 also makes the defacto case for continued MORE C02 emissions !!!!

Conversely the media continues to report that we should emit LESS C02 !!!

KCRam

Have they started using urea in any of the PU truck engines from the D3?

Dodge is the only one who has announced their 2010 HD trucks. The 2500/3500 pickups will continue to use the (precious-metal based) NOx absorber catalyst that's been in place since the 2007 regs. The 3500/4500/5500 chassis-cab trucks will use urea (different vehicle class).

Rumors suggest GM will add urea to the Duramax. Ford will be introducing their new in-house 6.7L V8 to replace the Powerstroke (now that they settled their suit/countersuit/counter-countersuit/etc with Navistar), so there's not much known about it yet.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host

winter2

The use of the urea solution will not be the next MTBE problem. The use of urea actually improves fuel economy over the use of straight catalytic systems. Urea based emission systems require fewer DPF regeneration cycles than non-urea systems.

As for the in-house Ford diesel, it has to be better than the Navistar junk presently used by Ford. Cummins/Dodge 6.7L six with little modification could produce comparable power similar to the new Ford.

roland3

... Winter, it does not matter that Argonne Labs disagree with you (factoring in the urea costs), but regardless the SCR/urea systems are already obsolete, at the engineering level, and I don't see any reason why not, soon to be, in application. The urea system was probably on Daimler's drawing boards ten or more years ago.

moparbad

Now is the time to buy a diesel vehicle.

Quote-
Diesel, which has traded consistently above gasoline in the U.S. since July 2007, will sell at a discount by April as a global recession saps demand for the world’s most-consumed transport fuel and inventories rise.

“By April, gasoline is going to cost more,” said Andrew Reed, an Energy Security Analysis Inc. oil expert in Boston. “Once we get past heating oil season, it’s all up to diesel demand” to set distillate prices, he said. “The real weakness is going to be exposed.” -end

Diesel Loses Premium to U.S. Gasoline as Jetta Owners Appreciate

ruking1

I never quite understood why the RUG to PUG advocates or in the worst case diesel haters never acknowledge that a much greater number and % of folks burn PUG and at a much lower MPG than RUG? We passenger CAR diesel types are much less than the 2% of the passenger vehicle fleet as it is acknowledged that over 75% of passenger vehicle fleet diesels are indeed "light trucks." To put this in context the US passenger vehicle fleet is 254.1 M vehicles.

ruking1

"Diesel Loses Premium to Gas as Jetta Autos Appreciate (Update1) "

By Robert Tuttle

Not that I am being picky or anything, but it would be nice if the prices dropped as FAST as they go up !!!

link title

winter2

Nice article. Would be interesting if the trend continues. Hybrid lovers might become diesel lovers.

ruking1

At times, I see the current hybrid designs (Prius comes to mind) as an excuse to sell WAY underpowered and ill performing and more fuel CONSUMPTIVE gasser ICE's @ SUPER premium prices !!

I would SERIOUSLY consider a "PLUG IN" with a 200 to 500 mile range with a so called "back up" 2.0 (latest incarnation) TDI diesel engine !!! Most folks don't know this but the VW diesel 1.9T has a commercial back up generator application. In that application, the design life (@80% load) is 25,000 hours. So if the average speed is 40-50 mph = 1 M to 1.25 M miles !!!! The customer could use both power plants/sources any number of ways. The range would be 830 to 1130 miles, if you wanted to use both sequentially. Indeed some active/passive regen and solar roof/horizontal could help in adding back some ongoing charging.

Till then diesel only is a good way to go.

plekto

Also, a TDI generator/engine would run at its optimum speed and therefore be a snap to do emissions on. It would easily pass because the thing never would need to undergo any of the speed tests or have to deal with acceleration or varying timing rates or any of that.

larsb

winter2 says, "Hybrid lovers might become diesel lovers. "

I'm both already.

I would buy any decent diesel/electric hybrid 5-passenger sedan getting at least 60+ MPG on combined EPA the day it was offered for sale.

roland3

... I guess I might as well give up trying to call this version of hybrid, by my acronym. "PIER", plug-in-extended-range, and yes solar arrays on the roof, deck and hood (bonnet if you need poetic license), would send us a mighty distance betwixt visits to the soda, coffee, gas and Diesel stops. Heck. with so little carbon output, fuel use, and engine run time, you might think CARB and EPA would offer incentives on this combo by dispensing with such weighty add-ons like EGR and a small chemical plant in the exhaust system.

ruking1

Let me put some reality on it. If running an 03 TDI @ "80% load" (*5,200 RPMS= 4,160 rpms)..., well... lets put it this way, app 2,800 to 3,000 rpms is about XXX digits mph. :shades: :lemon:

ruking1

Indeed if you were to (for emissions purposes) amortize the diesel emissions output over the electrical and ICE range: essentially you have (in my case) a TDI that will get 100 mpg.(combined distance traveled. Now I am not counting the coal emissions equivalent to charge the electrical portion) Emissions will be WAY less (almost exponentially) than a RUG to PUG vehicle and they are already GREAT if the environmentalists say @ PZEV.

ruking1

Did we ask for this carefully, or should we be careful what we ask for?...

Betty T. Yee Says California Gas Use Down 2.8%, Diesel Use Drops 11.4% By: Business Wire | 26 Feb 2009 | 12:32 PM ET

link title

Actually so that we dont start talking like Carl Sagan, a noted (but deceased) astronomer (of the billions and billions fame), the average driver does 12,000 to 15,000 yearly miles. With a 2.5% savings that is 336 to 420 miles per year saved/12 28-35 miles per month.

Can't wait for the price of D2 to go below 2 per gal !! Lower even!!!

roland3

... Of course something that might obtain 60 plus MPG on an EPA combined rating, would automatically be capable of 70 plus MPG combined with the incentive dropped EGR and a clear, unobstructed tailpipe. Somehow I can't believe anything other than this would be a very clean vehicle. I would have to keep in mind that there would be more of these because of it's performance, lower price (than a smog regs encumbered car), what this would be replacing and just the feeling that seventy plus MPG can't be wrong, in a Jetta, Focus, Cobalt, Neon, Civic, Camry sized vehicle.

roland3

... Say we had a DPI ( Diesel Plug In) available. What would be the actual engine run time? Let's say it has a forty mile range on batteries only, maybe fifty with battery tech advances and solar panels on a sunny day. I don't think we can wait for the moon shot 200 mile range Electric Vehicle, that the family can buy and run daily and take an occasional long trip. Also with a fast recharge and charging station infrastructure.
..
... So we have this grocery getter and we have the Diesel for long trips, with current technology. I think the average annual engine run time would be less than 15 percent. Why not make it attractive by pairing an ugly 100 pounds of smog equipment and 1,500 dollars off the price. I don't think CARB, EPA and the general public, realize how clean this vehicle would be, or even how clean these new sophisticated Diesels are, even without the heavy and expensive smog add-ons.
..
... Speaking of attractive, don't the gov agecies realize how many sales that are being discouraged by the latest round of regs and the obsolete urea infrastructure that is only five percent installed.

ruking1

YES !! you get the concept that I was trying to get across !! If the "plug in" is THE way to go (it isn't, but from a policy perspective) let's make the so called "hybrid battery/s" as modular as the ubiquitious 15-125 dollar current car battery !!!??? There is no reason a bank of batteries should cost 2,800 to replace.

With the driver choice of power flexibility, you can indeed use the plug in for much of the time then switch to diesel, vice versa or they can even find a bridge to be able use both!? So in your example say a 50 mile a day commute. Charger at work? Idea! Both ways are powered by plug in. No charger at work? One leg of the commute is diesel. That is (365 * 50)= 18,250 miles per year. The yearly average mileage is between 12,000 to 15,000 miles. You literally have cut emissions to ZERO at best and close to PZEV for the ice'd powered leg of the trips!!!! With no change to the miles driven per year !!!!!!!!!!

Yes they do realize it. That is probably one of the reasons why they craft the regulations the way they do.

roland3

... A couple of things: I am thinking towards a more expensive battery pack. Also for discussion purposes, talking about a compact four door sedan. So, say we tend towards a small engine, a thousand CC's, sixty cubes, and with the battery pack @ zero, it will not have much performance, maybe only a top speed of 55 MPH. Here is something computers can't do. You know it's a long trip, so as soon as you depart you set the Diesel for to maintain full charge, now at this size engine it can't quite keep 'em (the batts) up; however charging from the get-go will greatly increase range. Or we can go with the standard two liter torque generators.
..
... A real crowd pleaser is this vehicle will be at it's cleanest while in cities on short trips.

roland3

... Could you not act as fast as the United States Air Force ? Last week the Air Force announced that they cancelled the contract for a joint private sector and military synthetic fuels project on Malmstrom Air Force Base in Montana. No, muss, no fuss, no CYA, just a plain explanation that now that these distillates at two dollars a gallon don't look as good as they once did at five dollars a gallon.
..
... Here is your inevitable downside: the general public will become aware that there at least three technologies that don't require SCR/urea, one of these technologies is a patent held by a gov funded research lab, why are new big truck sales off eighty percent, those inevitable ammonia spills, Flying J, the only major truckstop chain that has not announced the installation of the SCR/urea will look like rocket scientists. It's either LEAD now or CYA later.

repoman1

The 2010 VW Polo has been improved in many ways, but has managed to keep the weight down, significantly improving fuel efficiency. It will feature two new engines, a new TDI and a TSI, as well as a 7-speed DSG transmission. The new 1.2 liter (TSI) turbocharged four-cylinder direct injection gasoline engine produces 105 horsepower and manages to travel 100 kilometers on only 5.5 liters of fuel; (42.76 MPG) 19 percent less than the previous generation car.

No figures on the diesel but a legitimate 50+ MPG is reasonable.

Production ramps up for the little guy in June 2009.

VW bring it here immediately - do you not see the market for this vehicle? A class leader in both gas and diesel - this is exactly what is needed right now.

ruking1

Indeed while almost ALL the (domestic) automakers are going through up to MINUS -58% decreases in sales, the (diesel) VW TDI's literally sell almost all they can/have made. I would say relatively they are experiencing perfect storm conditions.

I think anything sub 2900#s will be a longer term surprise to most folks not acquainted with turbo diesels. with 105 hp aka the normal gasser hp numbers. Using normal ratio's the 105 hp will most likely be app 181 # ft of torque. Lets put it this way, while most will probably never do this, 90 mpg cruise all day for 50 mpg will be a can do easy.

roland3

... Volvo announced a $9,600 hundred dollar surcharge for their big truck SCR/urea system, starting 2010. Why not help the industry by just not allowing the SCR/urea infrasture to be installed? The big truck industry is just going to have to say, well, our 2012 models will not need urea and the latest converter systems are about half as expensive as the previous two model years. Is Volvo sending a message by breaking out this price structure ? All these major corporations know SCR/urea is already obsolete at the engineering level. It's just a question of what to tell the stockholders at the next dozen or so quarterly meetings.

ruking1

Actually I am glad you are voicing this issue. While I REALLY liked the BMW 335 D, one of the bigger things that gave me pause was the urea systems issue, despite it being covered for the first 60,000 miles as are almost everything else.

alltorque

According to the VW Germany site, the Polo 1.4 TDi puts out 80bhp and 195Nm of the torquey things, (at 1800 - 2200 rpm). EU Combined fuel economy cycle is stated as 3.8 ltrs per 100km. The VW UK website appears to be down at present.

Looks good to me but the new generation TSi gasoline engines are said to be absolute little crackers, as are the new CR diesels. Might even get me away from diesel next time I change as my annual mileage is now down around 10k miles.

ruking1

Variables indeed are fluid. We have two vehicles @ the 13/15 year marks that we have goals of 30 years !! So depending, sometimes what's old is new again!? An additional benefit is past a certain age it becomes exempt from smog tests !!!??

houdini1

VW bring it here immediately

And while you are at it, bring us a small diesel P.U. as well.

plekto

A small diesel 4x4 with manual as an option(hint - even if it costs extra for it) would be a godsend to the literally tens of thousands of people who want trucks for off-roading who are hanging onto their 4 cylinder 4x4s from the 80s and early 90s. and the hundreds of thousands of businesses that want something to deliver and haul stuff around in. Who can't afford a huge F150 - either to buy or to keep running.

roland3

... There is this company in Australia, Perdaman Chemical, that is going to spend two and a half billion to expand their urea production. It is being guided by some guy with supposed rocket science intelligence. I wonder if he ever heard of : General Electric, Tenneco, Argonne Labs, Intergrated Fuels Technology, Eaton Corp, Clean Diesel Technologies, Navistar, and others that will make SCR/urea obsolete ???

houdini1

LOL, buggy whips anyone?

ruking1

The external urea supply canister concept might be the remnants of failed regulations. Some other examples; CA MTBE mandates, 3% electric car fleet mandates.

I think at some point it has to hit the light of day that roughly @ the same percentage % passenger diesel fleet of diesel/RUG ratio in a barrel of oil will bring down both the consumption and the importation (from countries hostile to the US) of so called "foreign oil". 42 gals= barrel 19.3 gal RUG, 9.83 gals D2 = app 23.4%

This concept of "foreign' oil is oxymoronic/ disingenuous, etc., as we... on the other hand have pursued "GLOBALIZATION" since easily when Nixon opened up ties with China. But really it was the American technological and logistics systems that tapped and started the flow of oil from the middle east in the first place, generations ago !!

houdini1

In the KC area diesel has always been 70 cents to $1.00 higher that prem. Today, at Sams, I noticed that prem was 1.97 and diesel was 1.99. Anybody else noticed the price difference shrinking? This is a good sign.

altair4

While fueling up today, I checked the diesel pump price - $2.899. RUG was $1.899.

ruking1

There is a lot of variance. Corner store prices:

D2 $2.09

RUG $ 2.11

PUG $2.31

gagrice

In San Diego Diesel is generally a few cents less than RUG. Some stations the same. Those lucky enough to own a diesel are stuffing the money in the bank with these prices. I think it is still relative to the need for heating oil in some parts of the USA.

roland3

... I did not think it would prove to be as outright poisonous as MTBE, but maybe it will be worse. It seems as some local idiot was carried into a hospital the other day with severe burns. He will not tell police what happened. Since the burns appear to be ammonia related, police are looking for the methamphetamine lab he was probably working in, as ammonia (or compounds thereof) is part of the meth process. I suspect drug dealers will turn your local fuel station into a corner store for their evil supplies.

ruking1

The projection after the "heating oil season" is for D2 prices to head south !!!

(I read a LONG Bloomberg article- Financial news folks actually assume you can read)

While I normally like to think and do " like model examples" (50/24/24 mpg) we frequently do apples to oranges:

1. for there are not many like models, past VW

2. because we HAVE an apples to oranges comparison.

So using VW TDI 50/51 mpg vs Honda Civic 36 mpg, AND the above corner store prices, the 36 mpg gasser COSTS (per mile driven) 40.2% percent MORE.

If that is not bad enough....

But the real kicker: it uses 40% more fuel !!! Defacto and even on a conscious basis, 1. 98% of the American car buying public 2. the GW cist's 3. EPA/CARB say the 40% MORE use (RUG to PUG) is BETTER !!!! :lemon: :shades:

(if I left anyone else out, please chime in)

Keep in mind this in on one of the acknowledged better to best cars in the so called (gasser) "economy"compact sedan category !!! My .02 cents, I actually LIKE this thing !!! Compacts are actually a MINORITY position (less than 25%) in the passenger vehicle fleet of 255.7 M registered vehicles. Conversely so called SUV's (fuel guzzlers are only 12% (- again an even smaller minority position) So not even the GW cist's are buying the Prius/Civic hybrids!!!!!????

roland3

... Three Diesel spills in two days, San Diego County. CARB, we already know what you are going to say when (not if ) the first ammonia tanker goes into a guard-rail. We did not tell the engine and truck manufacturers HOW to meet the 2010 regs. PLEASE show some leadership, instead of following ten year old European technology. Just drop back and make some incentives for the tech in my previous post(s).

jkinzel

Today D2 and RUG both $2.19 a gallon, Gig Harbor, WA

roland3

... Trying to be technically correct. I've been saying the SCR/urea systems are ten years old, or will be by the time the truck-stops have the dispensing capabilities. They have not been available that long in Europe; however we don't know exactly when this system first appeared, as an engineering project, within Daimler Mercedes Benz. I was lauding DMD, for trying to build Diesels the way they should be, compression, heat, boost, crisp timing, ring seal, sophisticated high pressure low soot producing injection,etc., but SCR/urea will be obsolete, just like the carburetor, it's just a question of when.
..
... The problem is we have PR departments of multi-billion dollar corporations selling SCR/urea, while their engineering departments KNOW it's already obsolete, and we have one hand of the government CARB / EPA ignoring the United States Department of Energy's, Argonne National Labs, that has a patent being developed by Integrated Fuels Technology that will not need the liquid ammonia compound, urea, not to mention a half dozen (or more) major corporations that also have technology that will not need SCR/urea to meet 2010 regs.