"The future for diesel powertrains is not getting any brighter as there has been a distinct erosion in support, with the number of potential buyers dropping from 23% to 16% in the latest J.D. Power survey."..."Nearly half-49%-of respondents cited high fuel prices as the main reason they would not choose a diesel." http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/010904.html
The above reinforces what I have said in the past. When diesel prices get even with RUG diesels will have a shot.
The recent test drive of the BMW's 2009 diesel-power X5 didn't help much either.
How much? Starts at $52,025, with $825 shipping, $3,700 more than similar gas model.
The guy writing the article is an obvious diesel hater. He should compare the diesel to the V8 gas X5. The diesel is much less expensive and more powerful. Gas 350 ft lbs of torque to 425 ft lbs on the diesel. You should go give one a test drive yourself. I believe you would be impressed. And not with that crappy sports package and its 20" inch city bling bling wheels. The standard 18" wheels are for people that use an SUV as it was intended. You cannot believe some NY writer that thinks the subway is a good way to get around.
The revolution has stalled a bit.
Not as bad as the hybrid revolution. There are Prius piled to the skyat San Diego dealers. What you are seeing is the typical American knee jerk reaction to car buying. I personally am having second thoughts on a full sized diesel SUV as I would rather have less performance and more economy. At this time I will probably keep the Sequoia and bite the bullet on filling every few miles out on the highway. Sadly it does not have the 46 gallon tank that my Suburban had. I am hoping one of the forward thinking German auto companies will bring US a 4 cylinder diesel midsized SUV. I could like the Tiguan with the same engine as the Jetta. If I were to buy a large diesel SUV today, it would be a used 2007 or 2008 Mercedes diesel. Pre urea injection. I am with Roland on that one. I think urea is another problem looking for a place to happen.
... Gary, well the potential for problems are certainly there. I want clean air but the thought of several hundred million being spent on technology could be and absolutely should be obsolete in five years disgusts me. This is about the time frame all the SCR-urea infrastructure could be in place. On the other hand, the impossible regs will help drive gas and Diesel engines the way of the dinosaur and EV is the bottom line for clean air.
Not to drag out and on about the MTBE fiasco, but there are TOO many ugly lessons there. One of them being misguided/manipulated science used in the decision making process to legislate (aka FORCE) compliance which ultimately resulted in BILLIONS in wasted cost and BILLIONS in waste to UNcomply AND to clean up an even bigger mess than what it was designed to clean up AND and ultimately to raise the price per gal of gas far longer and do absolutely NOTHING in the mean time for the environment. Perhaps a lot that should have been learned but probably were/was not.
FF to the so called urea infrastructure, specifically @ the customer level, the pain would be spread around even deeper than the MTBE fiasco, all in the name of (penalizing those that bought into the "new" 50 state regulatory governance) cleaner air. I see too many parallels !!?? :lemon:
Have you read anything on the VW Touareg TDI V6 coming in a couple months? Is it a Urea engine also. Or was VW able to pass without it? I really like the Tiguan as small CUVs go. The same diesel engine that is in the Jetta would be great as far as I am concerned.
The urea systems can be designed to where the car does NOT function if the mandated urea supply goes unreplenished.
The funny part is we are truly at choice to so called "self medicate". For those 50 state legal products that meet the requirements without urea, after market products such as Primrose 405C ,2003 /Power Service Diesel Kleen can be used. There are a host of reasons to use these products, but one would be to treat sub par mandated LSD to the more recent ULSD, (aka cetane boost). All products reduce emissions further down from the 50 state requirements. !!!!
Now both the urea oem and mentioned aftermarket products are kept proprietary to the end user. Or should I more correctly say, I have not been able to see past the opaque fire wall that obscures the issue. However the MSDS sheets indicates the primary ingredient in both the oem urea and aftermarket products are nitrogen based. . So indeed the 50 state urea requirement is literally a FORCED compliance- smoke and mirrors issue. Perhaps that is another reason why the oem does not recommend aftermarket "treatments"
"The diesel is much less expensive and more powerful. Gas 350 ft lbs of torque to 425 ft lbs on the diesel. You should go give one a test drive yourself."
That would be overkill. My next vehicle will probably have under 160 hp and 160 ft lbs or less.
For $57k I could buy 2 nice vehicles, an electric bike and take a vacation.
"And not with that crappy sports package and its 20" inch city bling bling wheels."
Yeah, that is a depressing, everybody is going with monster wheels. Back in the good old days we got by with 13 and 14 inches wheels. A person needs 400 ft lbs nowadays just too turn 20 inch wheels.
Glad you finally see and agree with some of the things we have been saying.
To rehash what the 03 Jetta TDI has been putting out: 90 hp/155 # ft of torque. 90 mph all day and puts up 48-50 mpg! 75 mph all day and puts up 56-59 mpg !!!
For 57k you can buy 5.7 of those. Or 2.6 of the 2009 Jettas TDI's, but they put out 140 hp/236 # ft. You can still do the above speeds, but my sense is 100-120 mph is the sweet spot for this machine, aka autobahn cruiser. Will I do it? Nope would not be prudent !?
Actually no, I have read nothing about it. However a few years ago, I rode in both the V10 and V6 Touareg's. Both at the time were experimental remote control test mules in CA. My sense and purely a swag on my part is the V6 will more than likely be a " non" urea type and will get closer to the 35 mpg SUV we are wishing for. Given the new 50 state requirements I would be surprised if the V10 will pass without the urea.
In the 03 Jetta 2.0/1.8T you are talking being able to go 29 miles vs TDI of 50 miles. No brainer to me.
My guess is CA and the 13 states want higher fuel consumption at the lower miles per gallon. :surprise: It is almost confirmation of what I have been saying all along. Why get 50 mpg when 29 mpg will do just fine, thank you very much.
Right now is sort of a perfect storm scenario. There are diesels on the market that are not going for MSRP and PLUS as most predicted. Fuel right now is cheaper relative to the $4.50 per gal just a short time ago. CA corner store is @$ 2.25 gal. . So with the Obama states rights emission changes mentioned, do you think the price of fuel will stay LOW to go lower... or go higher?? :surprise:
Again same drill. what are the per mile driven answers: 4.50/29 vs 4.50/50? vs Right now #2.25/29 vs 2.25/50 ? The math in both are telling. The 4.50 scenario is MORE telling.
I looked at a new Touareg V10 TDI for sale here. It gets past the requirement with its weight being heavy enough. Like the Excursion it is one heavy built SUV. I kind of think the Touareg is so heavy that the V6 will get closer to the Mercedes and BMW X5 mileage. Probably 30-31 mpg on the highway. Which I would be happy with. Just kind of in a holding pattern on any new vehicle purchases. Got a line on a guy that may put a Cummins 4bt diesel in my Ranger PU truck. That would be a huge improvement on that gutless V6 gas engine.
Ah yes makes it like the 250/2500 series light trucks do !! Good! The more research I do, the idea of the urea products looks like smoke and mirrors or probably more correctly, a regulatory revenue generator.
Yes, I don't blame anyone for being in a holding pattern on such a big ticket item as a vehicle, especially in this economic down turn/roller coaster era.
WOW a Cummins conversion!!! Cool. I probably should have done a diesel conversion on that old 1987 Toyota Landcruiser with app 250,000 miles on it. Funny how one gets attached to an old shoe box design.
I always loved the looks of my 1964 LC. If I could find a rust free one it would be a good candidate for that Cummins 4bt also. Make a fun project and a great back country rig. I guess reading on TDI club it is not that big of a deal to put a diesel into a vehicle and get it registered here in CA.
"Diesel cash guzzlers:......Diesel enthusiasts have long maintained that their form of motoring is good for their wallet and for the planet......But new research reveals that it could take them decades to reap the financial benefits....For many low-mileage drivers, buying a diesel is a false economy. "
Interesting story from the UK. I wonder how big an impact the higher fuel costs will have on diesel car sales in the UK and Europe in general.
Upward of MY diesel sales in UK and Europe in general is 70%. Total passenger fleet is 60% diesel and growing.
European models both gasser and diesel are NOT allowed into the US markets. So while it is interesting information, it is N/A here in the US markets.
What might be more applicable, is US market diesels go for app 20% more than like model gassers. So for a $246 premium can give $3,500 more at resale in 6 years. I wish I could do 237 % per year in the stock market !!
Your swag is about as good as anyone elses. However see msg #7393 for what it will do for per mile driven costs.
This is another article that supports the premise the US market anyway is more interested in higher fuel consumption rates and at higher prices and higher per mile driven rates.
I think a lot of UK drivers have kinown this for a while, now. There is a cross-over point in terms of pure economy and that needs to be calculated for each vehicle/driver independently. The trick is to buy a slightly used diesel and let someone else swallow the initial depreciation. I bought my Volvo at 1 year old, ex-Volvo Cars UK and 6500 miles on it..................but about £8k under new-list. With my annual mileage the numbers do make financial sense - but not wldly so.
Of course, to buy a used diesel, someone had to buy it new in the first place. As most mid-size and larger cars are bought as part of company fleets that's not such a problem; most are diesels. It's trickier with small cars, but the gas vs diesel delta new-cost has shrunk and dealers are keen to sell any cars.
However, economy is but one reason that people buy diesels and for many, the high-torque / low-fuss performance / lower-tax / green(er - perception) is sufficient to swing it.
In mainland Europe it's a much clearer financial choice but the UK has Robber Brown in charge and we get regally stuffed at every turn. The Daily Mail article was written as a means of prodding the government, (they never miss a chance and, sometimes, the "facts" are a little less than factual), than a serious piece of motoring news; because it's not news.
The closest competitor to the Prius is the "Corolla type" and Corolla. All one needs to do is to ask how long it will take to over come the 10,000 min cost of entry differential. Just because Avalon02wh can NOT bear to acknowledge this, does not NOT make it so. So three questions:. 1. How much fuel saved @ 38 vs 45 mpg over say 100,000 miles 2. How much does the premium -minus the savings buy in gals 3. How many miles does that convert?
When I considered the 04 Civic/Civic hybrid, the cost differential was app 7,500.
The cost differential in 03 VW Jetta 1.8T vs TDI was as I remember $246. 09 resale cost differential is app $3,500. Avalon 02 wh would have you believe he could get his college degree without doing comparison K-12 mathematics, but it is not so !!!
I passed a station I used to get red dye diesel from yesterday. RUG was $2.47 & ULSD $2.37. The Thrifty station in El Cajon had RUG at $2.03 PUG at $2.23 and ULSD at $2.15. So RUG and PUG is headed up and diesel is holding or dropping. There is a wide variation from state to state. Even at the average posted by AAA which is usually way high for the stations I buy gas from, diesel is a better deal overall. Just checking the EPA site. The average new Jetta diesel owner is getting 40.1 MPG that is 40% better than the gas version. In addition it is much better performance out on the highway. And traveling 40% further is a HUGE plus in my book. That and I do not have to put up with ethanol laced gasoline if I drive a diesel. Still watching for a great deal on a used 2008 ML320 CDI. It is a buyers market for vehicles right now.
Indeed to add to your example, which then is ignored anyway, is the 03 VW Jetta gasser like models 2.0, 1.8T which struggles to get 29 mpg vs the like model TDI easily getting 49 mpg.
So RUG to PUG to D2 examples are 2.03/29= .07 cents, 2.23/29=.0769 cents, 2.15/49=.0439 cents
per mile driven, respectively
Avalon02wh would have US believe .07 RUG to .0769 PUG cents is cheaper than .0439 cents D2 ?? !!
But again ,upwards of 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet runs this way :lemon: They have of course taken away or hidden the basis of comparison; unlike a company like VW who actually has put both (gasser/D2) on the markets.
From a practical standpoint, those of US that like diesel are better off without an explosion in the market. Look at the EU. They have a diesel shortage and sell US their excess RUG. I believe the current low prices in RUG are due to a glut on the market.
"Avalon02wh would have US believe .07 RUG to .0769 PUG cents is cheaper than .0439 cents D2 ?? !! "
I posted some numbers and you made the leap that I am trying to convert you, or something of the sort. The numbers are the numbers. In some states you will save money using diesel fuel and in other states you will not. In the Arizona and in California the spread is close making diesel fuel cheaper per mile. In Hawaii and the District of Columbia it is the other way around.
"They have of course taken away or hidden the basis of comparison;"
What is this about US and They? You reminded me of a picture someone altered showing D. Rumsfeld standing in front of a world map with the United States (US) and everyone else in the world as Them. Good old F.U.D. http://37days.typepad.com/37days/2007/08/t-is-for-them-u.html
Just the other day I was talking to a diesel truck owner. He commented that he would not consider a diesel car because of the price of diesel vs. RUG. He needs a big high torque engine to tow things like a bobcat on a trailer, but that does not mean he needs a diesel engine in his car.
I just did a quick side-by-side comparison between the diesel Jetta and a Toyota Corolla.
Annual Fuel Cost* Corolla $919 Jetta $1032 Based on 45% highway driving, 55% city driving, 15000 miles/year and Reg.: $1.84 per gallon Diesel: $2.27 per gallon
So which car should I buy to save fuel and minimize my purchase price? Keep in mind that the price of RUG in my town is $1.85 and Diesel is $2.54 a gallon. The actual diesel costs would be more like $1154 per year.
And lastly, can anyone explain why VW needs to run premium in their 2.5L motor when just about every other car maker can get the same horsepower using RUG?
"...I posted some numbers and you made the leap that I am trying to convert you, or something of the sort. The numbers are the numbers."...
Actually as you have ignored, I posted numbers first !! You are the one making the leap in thinking I am thinking you are trying to convert me. Indeed the numbers are the numbers. Upwards of 98% of the US passenger vehicle fleet or the owners to be more correct, have chosen the HIGHER per mile driven numbers. I am and have been advocating choice.
Again the numbers on a diesel Corolla would blow the gasser Corolla's away, which is what you choose to ignore. (like models) I have cited (the like models) Jetta's. 29 vs 49, apples to apples. Anyone can compare say a 15 mpg SUV against a Prius' 45 mpg. What really needs to be offered is a 30-35 mpg option in a like model diesel configuration. Why not a diesel prius against a gasser prius that gets 76 mpg? But... you know that and you know why and it goes unacknowledged by you. Indeed Toyota lobbied to change the EPA rating procedures because the Prius first come on the market advertising 60 city and 51 highway and most Prius owners verified a HUGE dissatisfied 45/48 mpg !! But all is not lost in that it is easy to select the vehicle with the highest EPA rated mpg. The problem is the ones with the highest mpg ratings are NOT allowed in the country. So you can nail your foot to the floor and spin round and round calling that forward progress all you wish. You are still going round and round. We are not serious about decreased consumption and decreased cost. The other truth (as you will probably unacknowledge) is the % of the US passenger fleet of small cars (like Corolla) are a MINORITY population. (less than 25%).
Now I am not saying the comparison of the Corolla vs diesel Jetta does not go unnoticed, unacknowledge or does not have some merit. Indeed I have incorporated it. I can sell a 5 year old Corolla (equivalent) with 80,000 miles used (obviously) for more than I paid new for it. That of course NEVER would have happened without the market distortions created by the very interesting bru ha ha issues. :shades:
My driving is different with 75% Highway and 25% city. I am paying 2.299 for diesel while RUG is 1.899. On a recent long trip to Florida, I paid 2.189 (average) for diesel while RUG was 1.859. I averaged 29.8 MPG in my Jeep Liberty CRD (2.8L four cylinder turbodiesel) or 7.3 cents/mile. During a November trip of 500 miles using my wife's 1998 Chrysler Concorde with 2.7 L V-6 (with 56K miles on it), I we averaged 26.2 MPG paying 2.259 (average) or 8.6 cents/mile. Average speed for both trips was 65 MPH. The Jeep weighs in at over 4300 pounds and has the aerodynamics of a cinder block, cD of 0.43. The Chrysler weighs a touch over 3400 lbs with a cD of 0.30.
In straight around town driving, the diesel gets 21 while the Chrysler gets 15. With diesel at 2.299 that is 10.9 cents/mile. Last gas fill up for the Chrysler was 1.879/gallon or 12.6 cents/mile. Diesel wins by about 16% savings/mile.
And lastly, can anyone explain why VW needs to run premium in their 2.5L motor when just about every other car maker can get the same horsepower using RUG?
Someone gave you bum scoop. The 5 cylinder 2.5 L uses RUG. Their high performance turbocharged 4 banger 2.0L requires Premium. Why anyone would buy that engine when you can have the diesel for less is a mystery. They also have a 4 banger that runs on RUG.
San Diego-based General Atomics has received a $43 million contract from the U.S. Department of Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency to develop a scalable process for cost-effective, large-scale production of algae oil and an algae-derived JP-8 jet fuel surrogate.
General Atomics will lead a team of 18 university and industrial partners in a three-year project that will examine all aspects of algae-to-jet fuel production with the goal of making algae jet fuel an affordable, reliable long-term supply for the Department of Defense. The program will address algae selection and growth; water, carbon dioxide and nutrient supply; algae harvesting; oil extraction; and conversion to JP-8. The contract will conclude with a pre-pilot-scale demonstration.
The advanced technologies group at General Atomics will handle the algae project. In addition to working on technologies to convert algae into fuel, the group has researched technologies to convert plastic wastes, trash and biomass into power. General Atomics works on a wide range of energy and advanced technologies for industry and the government, including work on nuclear energy, laser technology, electromagnetic power technology, and unmanned aerial vehicles.
Hopefully all the algae to biofuel R&D will give US a sustainable source of fuel.
As you guys are chasing numbers all over the map to little or no end there is good news in today's {02/02/09} Auto News, That is that Borg Warner and Bosch have combined to put influence and pressure on EPA and law makers to level the playing field between RUG and D2. As I said to them, Thank God. It's about time someone started pushing the OEM'S to offer some cares and light trucks with diesel power to the American public.
... There is a study well underway at the Danish Technical University (Google News) that uses a single electrochemical filter that handles just about all particulate and NOx emissions. It requires NO additional SCR/urea or any additional fluids. Hopefully, it will also make EGR also a thing of the past. There is an expected increase in fuel economy, with the standard accompianing decrease in carbon output. .. ... Looking forward to some forward thinking from Pilot, Flying J and TA truck-stop chains. YOU, are the only entities not bound by EPA and CARB, that might be able to stop US(a) from looking like fools, by spending hundreds of millions on SCR/urea infrastructure, that WILL be obsolete before it's in the ground (literally ?) .. ... I have to wonder if this Danish process is anything similar to the Argonne Labs patent that has been in somewhat of a hush category since Argonne sold licensing rights to a single company.
Seemingly BMW has a hit with the Mini Cooper line. A relative, who is quite the shopper/bargainer was only able to get his "stretch" mini @ MSRP, but got them to throw in the rubber mats ! At the time the take was: only stretch mini in inventory in the region.
So with a diesel Mini Cooper and probably an even higher MSRP, with the added attraction of probably even higher mpg.... !!!!
Does this mean there is hope that GM will bring some small diesels to the US market, or will GM continue to tie it's survival to the $40k plus Volt ?? I wonder if Thomas Stevens is more diesel aware/friendly or will he continue to lead GM down the "green" path to bankruptcy. ----------------------------------------------------------- GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner today announced that Robert A. Lutz, GM Vice Chairman - Global Product Development, will transition to a new role effective April 1, 2009 as Vice Chairman and Senior Advisor. Lutz, 76, will provide strategic input into GM's global design and key product initiatives until his retirement at the end of 2009. He will continue to report to Wagoner.
Wagoner also announced that effective April 1, 2009 the GM Board of Directors elected Thomas G. Stephens, Vice Chairman - Global Product Development, reporting to President and Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson. Stephens, 60, is currently Executive Vice President, Global Powertrain and Global Quality. In this new assignment, Stephens will maintain his responsibility for overseeing GM's global quality activity.
... Land Line magazine, February, California trucker awarded a million plus, lost a lung unloading ammonia fertilizer. Of course the level of ammonia concentrate is probably not as high in SCR/urea, but consider the mechanic, working on a tank that has sat in the sun for six months. Do we really want thousands of tired, litigious, negative thinking (about urea), truckers working with this stuff. .. ... Pilot and Detroit Diesel made big SCR/urea roll-out announcements recently. Of course they KNOW this stuff will be a hazardous clean-up in ten years, but have to get a few years out of their ROI. There is no way something this infrastructure heavy and labor intensive can hang around. I am sure the major Diesel engine manufacturers are already looking at the Argonne patent and the Danish study, but they CAN'T tell the public and gov agencies this because of their responsibilities to the stock holders.
The ECOnetic Fiesta that Ford sells in Europe is a sporty little five-passenger hatchback that gets 65 mpg and emits less CO2 than a Toyota Prius. It is the greenest family car sold in Britain and just the thing to boost Ford's sales - and image - at home. But Ford has no plans to bring it to America for one simple, stupid, reason.
It's a diesel.
The Fiesta sports a 1.6-liter turbocharged engine with direct injection. It produces just 88 horsepower, so acceleration is, shall we say, relaxed, but European customers don't seem to mind. They've snapped up more than 42,000 of them since the car's debut last fall.
But we can only look on with envy.
Diesels are huge in Europe, where they comprise about half of all cars sold. They're slowly catching on in America as European automakers like Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz bring them here and the IRS offers tax credits to make them more attractive. Even Japanese automakers plan to roll them out in America. But the Big Three - which make and sell diesels in Europe - have shown little interest in offering them here because they don't think it's economically viable. They don't see people buying them, so they can't see making money on them.
"We don't have a full scale energy policy in place in the U.S. that promotes the usage of diesel fuel," Ford spokesman Said Deep told Wired.com. "So, we will bring the Fiesta to America in the most affordable manner."
The US-bound Fiesta will arrive in 2010 with a 1.6-liter four-cylinder gas-burning engine with fuel economy in the high 30s. Nice, but less than half what the diesel gets. It's hard to stomach considering the ECOnetic has exploded on the EU market like a pinata full of pesos. Aside from the stellar sales figures, the car - which starts at less than $13,000 - has been lauded with awards from the likes of What Car? and CleanGreenCar.com.The Sun predicts it will be Britain's best-selling car this year.
Glad you posted this. It is an indication of some of the points we have been making over time.
The biggest indicator (dictator actually, but this is a PC friendly post) is what government favors or in the US; NOT for D2. Always has been, and it will probably remain.
1. Do the math. We/I have ALWAYS indicated that. Indeed you normally do not respond to "cost per mile driven", or Break even, or, or......
2. Europeans have choice, we do not. They have chosen to have the majority of their passenger vehicle fleet diesel (60% is what I have read)
2. Perhaps the Euro governments aka UK have been relentlessly pounded for the VERY high prices of petrol products.
Just projecting here, aka SWAGGING:
It would probably make most UK/European citizens ANGRY knowing they are paying $7.00 US per gal while us AMERICANS pay 2 per gal. and consume MUCH more of it. How do they know? They all ship us their elite fuel guzzlers, which most can't afford to drive in Europe !!!
They probably know it, but we don't ; that they are EXPORTING THEIR EXCESS RUG to PUG to us and we are complaining all the way to the next fill up. So perhaps the governments might be trying to shift policy a bit.
... The Heartland Institute ( Google News, 02/13/09 ) says that CARB is ignoring scientists, and that one member claiming to be a Ph.D. does not have the degree. The Institute even suggests that the cost burdens of the recent regs will drag down Californians health. They cite Dr. Henry Miller, a senior fellow from Stanford, who is very much at odds with CARB, on their particulate claims, and quotes a detailed study, from UCLA completed in 2005.
...diesel is making a wonderful price re-balance. Some stations are selling diesel at the price of PUG, and quite afew have closed the gap to less than 20 cents over PUG. If the current pace continues, diesel could be at/below RUG in 6-8 weeks.
Refiners have throttled down gasoline production partly for annual maintenance, but mostly due to reduced driving ("Why should we continue to produce something that no one is buying?"). Diesel, on the other hand, is generally steady in demand and will increase with any economic rebound. So the vehicle manufacturers who have opted to introduce clean diesel may see themselves with a very interesting advantage this spring.
... Yes, the former spokesman for General Electric would be proud. Tenneco and GE have formed a venture to use GE's technology to meet Diesel emission standards. There will be no SCR/urea with this system. Back in the Dark Ages ( a half year ago) when fuel went to five dollars a gallon, Cummins jumped on the urea band-wagon. At this point I thought the SCR/urea systems had reached juggernaut proportions. To some extent I laud Damilar Mercedes for starting the SCR/urea system, because it gets politicians out of the engine building business, BUT this technology will be obsolete before California has the last truckstop putting this stuff in the ground (literally ? ) .. ... With the Danish method, the Argonne patent, International / Navistar and more, now having a truly formidable ally with General Electric and Tenneco, the SCR/urea debacle might be able to be STOPED, before Californians waste some real money.
Current mpg standards are at 27 mpg. Keep in mind the DEFACTO avg mpg is 22 mpg/2.19-2.39=
The diesel deny 'ers would tell you or want you to think paying from 42.8% to 93.5% MORE( per mile driven) is.... BETTER !!!??? The CA Legislators want to raise gas taxes 12 cents or 67%.
Any questions why the CA legislators want to cut K-12 mathematics and science education spending !!?? :surprise: :sick: Opssssssssss.... off topic!!?? CLASS dismissed !!!
Comments
"The future for diesel powertrains is not getting any brighter as there has been a distinct erosion in support, with the number of potential buyers dropping from 23% to 16% in the latest J.D. Power survey."..."Nearly half-49%-of respondents cited high fuel prices as the main reason they would not choose a diesel."
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/010904.html
The above reinforces what I have said in the past. When diesel prices get even with RUG diesels will have a shot.
The recent test drive of the BMW's 2009 diesel-power X5 didn't help much either.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2009-01-23-test-drive-bmw-x5_- N.htm
The guy writing the article is an obvious diesel hater. He should compare the diesel to the V8 gas X5. The diesel is much less expensive and more powerful. Gas 350 ft lbs of torque to 425 ft lbs on the diesel. You should go give one a test drive yourself. I believe you would be impressed. And not with that crappy sports package and its 20" inch city bling bling wheels. The standard 18" wheels are for people that use an SUV as it was intended. You cannot believe some NY writer that thinks the subway is a good way to get around.
The revolution has stalled a bit.
Not as bad as the hybrid revolution. There are Prius piled to the skyat San Diego dealers. What you are seeing is the typical American knee jerk reaction to car buying. I personally am having second thoughts on a full sized diesel SUV as I would rather have less performance and more economy. At this time I will probably keep the Sequoia and bite the bullet on filling every few miles out on the highway. Sadly it does not have the 46 gallon tank that my Suburban had. I am hoping one of the forward thinking German auto companies will bring US a 4 cylinder diesel midsized SUV. I could like the Tiguan with the same engine as the Jetta. If I were to buy a large diesel SUV today, it would be a used 2007 or 2008 Mercedes diesel. Pre urea injection. I am with Roland on that one. I think urea is another problem looking for a place to happen.
FF to the so called urea infrastructure, specifically @ the customer level, the pain would be spread around even deeper than the MTBE fiasco, all in the name of (penalizing those that bought into the "new" 50 state regulatory governance) cleaner air. I see too many parallels !!??
The funny part is we are truly at choice to so called "self medicate". For those 50 state legal products that meet the requirements without urea, after market products such as Primrose 405C ,2003 /Power Service Diesel Kleen can be used. There are a host of reasons to use these products, but one would be to treat sub par mandated LSD to the more recent ULSD, (aka cetane boost). All products reduce emissions further down from the 50 state requirements. !!!!
Now both the urea oem and mentioned aftermarket products are kept proprietary to the end user. Or should I more correctly say, I have not been able to see past the opaque fire wall that obscures the issue. However the MSDS sheets indicates the primary ingredient in both the oem urea and aftermarket products are nitrogen based. . So indeed the 50 state urea requirement is literally a FORCED compliance- smoke and mirrors issue. Perhaps that is another reason why the oem does not recommend aftermarket "treatments"
That would be overkill. My next vehicle will probably have under 160 hp and 160 ft lbs or less.
For $57k I could buy 2 nice vehicles, an electric bike and take a vacation.
"And not with that crappy sports package and its 20" inch city bling bling wheels."
Yeah, that is a depressing, everybody is going with monster wheels. Back in the good old days we got by with 13 and 14 inches wheels. A person needs 400 ft lbs nowadays just too turn 20 inch wheels.
To rehash what the 03 Jetta TDI has been putting out: 90 hp/155 # ft of torque. 90 mph all day and puts up 48-50 mpg! 75 mph all day and puts up 56-59 mpg !!!
For 57k you can buy 5.7 of those. Or 2.6 of the 2009 Jettas TDI's, but they put out 140 hp/236 # ft. You can still do the above speeds, but my sense is 100-120 mph is the sweet spot for this machine, aka autobahn cruiser. Will I do it? Nope would not be prudent !?
Being at choice is usually a good thing.
Will the new waivers, if granted, increase or decrease the possibility of more diesel cars in the U.S. ?
I am not sure.
"CO2 emissions from a gallon of gasoline = 2,421 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 8,788 grams = 8.8 kg/gallon = 19.4 pounds/gallon
CO2 emissions from a gallon of diesel = 2,778 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 10,084 grams = 10.1 kg/gallon = 22.2 pounds/gallon "
http://www.epa.gov/oms/climate/420f05001.htm
My guess is CA and the 13 states want higher fuel consumption at the lower miles per gallon. :surprise: It is almost confirmation of what I have been saying all along. Why get 50 mpg when 29 mpg will do just fine, thank you very much.
Again same drill. what are the per mile driven answers: 4.50/29 vs 4.50/50? vs Right now #2.25/29 vs 2.25/50 ? The math in both are telling. The 4.50 scenario is MORE telling.
Yes, I don't blame anyone for being in a holding pattern on such a big ticket item as a vehicle, especially in this economic down turn/roller coaster era.
WOW a Cummins conversion!!! Cool. I probably should have done a diesel conversion on that old 1987 Toyota Landcruiser with app 250,000 miles on it. Funny how one gets attached to an old shoe box design.
"Diesel cash guzzlers:......Diesel enthusiasts have long maintained that their form of motoring is good for their wallet and for the planet......But new research reveals that it could take them decades to reap the financial benefits....For many low-mileage drivers, buying a diesel is a false economy. "
Interesting story from the UK. I wonder how big an impact the higher fuel costs will have on diesel car sales in the UK and Europe in general.
European models both gasser and diesel are NOT allowed into the US markets. So while it is interesting information, it is N/A here in the US markets.
What might be more applicable, is US market diesels go for app 20% more than like model gassers. So for a $246 premium can give $3,500 more at resale in 6 years. I wish I could do 237 % per year in the stock market !!
Your swag is about as good as anyone elses. However see msg #7393 for what it will do for per mile driven costs.
This is another article that supports the premise the US market anyway is more interested in higher fuel consumption rates and at higher prices and higher per mile driven rates.
Of course, to buy a used diesel, someone had to buy it new in the first place. As most mid-size and larger cars are bought as part of company fleets that's not such a problem; most are diesels. It's trickier with small cars, but the gas vs diesel delta new-cost has shrunk and dealers are keen to sell any cars.
However, economy is but one reason that people buy diesels and for many, the high-torque / low-fuss performance / lower-tax / green(er - perception) is sufficient to swing it.
In mainland Europe it's a much clearer financial choice but the UK has Robber Brown in charge and we get regally stuffed at every turn. The Daily Mail article was written as a means of prodding the government, (they never miss a chance and, sometimes, the "facts" are a little less than factual), than a serious piece of motoring news; because it's not news.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The closest competitor to the Prius is the "Corolla type" and Corolla. All one needs to do is to ask how long it will take to over come the 10,000 min cost of entry differential. Just because Avalon02wh can NOT bear to acknowledge this, does not NOT make it so.
When I considered the 04 Civic/Civic hybrid, the cost differential was app 7,500.
The cost differential in 03 VW Jetta 1.8T vs TDI was as I remember $246. 09 resale cost differential is app $3,500. Avalon 02 wh would have you believe he could get his college degree without doing comparison K-12 mathematics, but it is not so !!!
State Diesel % over RUG Diesel % over PUG
Alaska 40.8% 20.5%
Alabama 31.1% 16.1%
Arkansas 28.5% 12.7%
Arizona 21.6% 9.3%
California 17.5% 7.9%
Colorado 32.0% 15.4%
Connecticut 44.1% 22.7%
Dist. Columbia 57.2% 30.2%
Delaware 34.3% 17.4%
Florida 26.2% 12.6%
Georgia 30.9% 14.2%
Hawaii 67.2% 35.6%
Iowa 22.8% 10.1%
Idaho 39.6% 22.3%
Illinois 28.6% 13.8%
Indiana 32.1% 16.3%
Kansas 24.4% 14.2%
Kentucky 22.3% 8.3%
Louisiana 29.9% 14.1%
Massachusetts 42.2% 21.5%
Maryland 34.1% 18.7%
Maine 37.0% 19.0%
Michigan 26.8% 13.1%
Minnesota 28.5% 16.9%
Missouri 21.7% 9.4%
Mississippi 24.3% 11.3%
Montana 50.9% 27.6%
North Carolina 30.6% 15.2%
North Dakota 42.6% 24.9%
Nebraska 23.5% 14.9%
New Hampshire 37.2% 18.2%
New Jersey 40.9% 21.0%
New Mexico 23.5% 10.0%
Nevada 14.6% 4.6%
New York 41.4% 22.7%
Ohio 32.0% 16.0%
Oklahoma 22.3% 10.7%
Oregon 28.2% 16.4%
Pennsylvania 36.4% 19.3%
Rhode Island 38.3% 20.6%
South Carolina 30.6% 14.7%
South Dakota 29.4% 14.4%
Tennessee 31.6% 15.7%
Texas 29.4% 15.3%
Utah 39.7% 21.2%
Virginia 33.4% 18.3%
Vermont 43.7% 21.9%
Washington 28.3% 15.3%
Wisconsin 22.8% 11.6%
West Virginia 30.3% 15.8%
Wyoming 50.4% 26.2%
Average 32.9% 16.8%
So RUG to PUG to D2 examples are
2.03/29= .07 cents,
2.23/29=.0769 cents,
2.15/49=.0439 cents
per mile driven, respectively
Avalon02wh would have US believe .07 RUG to .0769 PUG cents is cheaper than .0439 cents D2 ?? !!
But again ,upwards of 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet runs this way
I posted some numbers and you made the leap that I am trying to convert you, or something of the sort. The numbers are the numbers. In some states you will save money using diesel fuel and in other states you will not. In the Arizona and in California the spread is close making diesel fuel cheaper per mile. In Hawaii and the District of Columbia it is the other way around.
"They have of course taken away or hidden the basis of comparison;"
What is this about US and They? You reminded me of a picture someone altered showing D. Rumsfeld standing in front of a world map with the United States (US) and everyone else in the world as Them. Good old F.U.D.
http://37days.typepad.com/37days/2007/08/t-is-for-them-u.html
Just the other day I was talking to a diesel truck owner. He commented that he would not consider a diesel car because of the price of diesel vs. RUG. He needs a big high torque engine to tow things like a bobcat on a trailer, but that does not mean he needs a diesel engine in his car.
I just did a quick side-by-side comparison between the diesel Jetta and a Toyota Corolla.
Annual Fuel Cost* Corolla $919 Jetta $1032
Based on 45% highway driving, 55% city driving, 15000 miles/year and Reg.: $1.84 per gallon Diesel: $2.27 per gallon
So which car should I buy to save fuel and minimize my purchase price? Keep in mind that the price of RUG in my town is $1.85 and Diesel is $2.54 a gallon. The actual diesel costs would be more like $1154 per year.
And lastly, can anyone explain why VW needs to run premium in their 2.5L motor when just about every other car maker can get the same horsepower using RUG?
Actually as you have ignored, I posted numbers first !! You are the one making the leap in thinking I am thinking you are trying to convert me. Indeed the numbers are the numbers. Upwards of 98% of the US passenger vehicle fleet or the owners to be more correct, have chosen the HIGHER per mile driven numbers. I am and have been advocating choice.
Again the numbers on a diesel Corolla would blow the gasser Corolla's away, which is what you choose to ignore. (like models) I have cited (the like models) Jetta's. 29 vs 49, apples to apples. Anyone can compare say a 15 mpg SUV against a Prius' 45 mpg. What really needs to be offered is a 30-35 mpg option in a like model diesel configuration. Why not a diesel prius against a gasser prius that gets 76 mpg? But... you know that and you know why and it goes unacknowledged by you. Indeed Toyota lobbied to change the EPA rating procedures because the Prius first come on the market advertising 60 city and 51 highway and most Prius owners verified a HUGE dissatisfied 45/48 mpg !! But all is not lost in that it is easy to select the vehicle with the highest EPA rated mpg. The problem is the ones with the highest mpg ratings are NOT allowed in the country. So you can nail your foot to the floor and spin round and round calling that forward progress all you wish. You are still going round and round. We are not serious about decreased consumption and decreased cost. The other truth (as you will probably unacknowledge) is the % of the US passenger fleet of small cars (like Corolla) are a MINORITY population. (less than 25%).
Now I am not saying the comparison of the Corolla vs diesel Jetta does not go unnoticed, unacknowledge or does not have some merit. Indeed I have incorporated it. I can sell a 5 year old Corolla (equivalent) with 80,000 miles used (obviously) for more than I paid new for it. That of course NEVER would have happened without the market distortions created by the very interesting bru ha ha issues.
My driving is different with 75% Highway and 25% city. I am paying 2.299 for diesel while RUG is 1.899. On a recent long trip to Florida, I paid 2.189 (average) for diesel while RUG was 1.859. I averaged 29.8 MPG in my Jeep Liberty CRD (2.8L four cylinder turbodiesel) or 7.3 cents/mile. During a November trip of 500 miles using my wife's 1998 Chrysler Concorde with 2.7 L V-6 (with 56K miles on it), I we averaged 26.2 MPG paying 2.259 (average) or 8.6 cents/mile. Average speed for both trips was 65 MPH. The Jeep weighs in at over 4300 pounds and has the aerodynamics of a cinder block, cD of 0.43. The Chrysler weighs a touch over 3400 lbs with a cD of 0.30.
In straight around town driving, the diesel gets 21 while the Chrysler gets 15. With diesel at 2.299 that is 10.9 cents/mile. Last gas fill up for the Chrysler was 1.879/gallon or 12.6 cents/mile. Diesel wins by about 16% savings/mile.
Someone gave you bum scoop. The 5 cylinder 2.5 L uses RUG. Their high performance turbocharged 4 banger 2.0L requires Premium. Why anyone would buy that engine when you can have the diesel for less is a mystery. They also have a 4 banger that runs on RUG.
General Atomics will lead a team of 18 university and industrial partners in a three-year project that will examine all aspects of algae-to-jet fuel production with the goal of making algae jet fuel an affordable, reliable long-term supply for the Department of Defense. The program will address algae selection and growth; water, carbon dioxide and nutrient supply; algae harvesting; oil extraction; and conversion to JP-8. The contract will conclude with a pre-pilot-scale demonstration.
The advanced technologies group at General Atomics will handle the algae project. In addition to working on technologies to convert algae into fuel, the group has researched technologies to convert plastic wastes, trash and biomass into power. General Atomics works on a wide range of energy and advanced technologies for industry and the government, including work on nuclear energy, laser technology, electromagnetic power technology, and unmanned aerial vehicles.
Hopefully all the algae to biofuel R&D will give US a sustainable source of fuel.
As I said to them, Thank God. It's about time someone started pushing the OEM'S to offer some cares and light trucks with diesel power to the American public.
..
... Looking forward to some forward thinking from Pilot, Flying J and TA truck-stop chains. YOU, are the only entities not bound by EPA and CARB, that might be able to stop US(a) from looking like fools, by spending hundreds of millions on SCR/urea infrastructure, that WILL be obsolete before it's in the ground (literally ?)
..
... I have to wonder if this Danish process is anything similar to the Argonne Labs patent that has been in somewhat of a hush category since Argonne sold licensing rights to a single company.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-02-09-mini-diesel_N.htm
So with a diesel Mini Cooper and probably an even higher MSRP, with the added attraction of probably even higher mpg.... !!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner today announced that Robert A. Lutz, GM Vice Chairman - Global Product Development, will transition to a new role effective April 1, 2009 as Vice Chairman and Senior Advisor. Lutz, 76, will provide strategic input into GM's global design and key product initiatives until his retirement at the end of 2009. He will continue to report to Wagoner.
Wagoner also announced that effective April 1, 2009 the GM Board of Directors elected Thomas G. Stephens, Vice Chairman - Global Product Development, reporting to President and Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson. Stephens, 60, is currently Executive Vice President, Global Powertrain and Global Quality. In this new assignment, Stephens will maintain his responsibility for overseeing GM's global quality activity.
..
... Pilot and Detroit Diesel made big SCR/urea roll-out announcements recently. Of course they KNOW this stuff will be a hazardous clean-up in ten years, but have to get a few years out of their ROI. There is no way something this infrastructure heavy and labor intensive can hang around. I am sure the major Diesel engine manufacturers are already looking at the Argonne patent and the Danish study, but they CAN'T tell the public and gov agencies this because of their responsibilities to the stock holders.
Ford's ECOnetic Fiesta Gets 65 MPG. You Can't Have One.
The ECOnetic Fiesta that Ford sells in Europe is a sporty little five-passenger hatchback that gets 65 mpg and emits less CO2 than a Toyota Prius. It is the greenest family car sold in Britain and just the thing to boost Ford's sales - and image - at home. But Ford has no plans to bring it to America for one simple, stupid, reason.
It's a diesel.
The Fiesta sports a 1.6-liter turbocharged engine with direct injection. It produces just 88 horsepower, so acceleration is, shall we say, relaxed, but European customers don't seem to mind. They've snapped up more than 42,000 of them since the car's debut last fall.
But we can only look on with envy.
Diesels are huge in Europe, where they comprise about half of all cars sold. They're slowly catching on in America as European automakers like Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz bring them here and the IRS offers tax credits to make them more attractive. Even Japanese automakers plan to roll them out in America. But the Big Three - which make and sell diesels in Europe - have shown little interest in offering them here because they don't think it's economically viable. They don't see people buying them, so they can't see making money on them.
"We don't have a full scale energy policy in place in the U.S. that promotes the usage of diesel fuel," Ford spokesman Said Deep told Wired.com. "So, we will bring the Fiesta to America in the most affordable manner."
The US-bound Fiesta will arrive in 2010 with a 1.6-liter four-cylinder gas-burning engine with fuel economy in the high 30s. Nice, but less than half what the diesel gets. It's hard to stomach considering the ECOnetic has exploded on the EU market like a pinata full of pesos. Aside from the stellar sales figures, the car - which starts at less than $13,000 - has been lauded with awards from the likes of What Car? and CleanGreenCar.com. The Sun predicts it will be Britain's best-selling car this year.
Diesel cars 'take decades to become cost effective'
I guess everyone is not a fan of diesel-sniffing in the UK.
03 VW TDI over 03 VW 2.0/1.8T, No brainer.
03 VW TDI over 03 Prius, No brainer.
The biggest indicator (dictator actually, but this is a PC friendly post) is what government favors or in the US; NOT for D2. Always has been, and it will probably remain.
1. Do the math. We/I have ALWAYS indicated that. Indeed you normally do not respond to "cost per mile driven", or Break even, or, or......
2. Europeans have choice, we do not. They have chosen to have the majority of their passenger vehicle fleet diesel (60% is what I have read)
2. Perhaps the Euro governments aka UK have been relentlessly pounded for the VERY high prices of petrol products.
Just projecting here, aka SWAGGING:
It would probably make most UK/European citizens ANGRY knowing they are paying $7.00 US per gal while us AMERICANS pay 2 per gal. and consume MUCH more of it. How do they know? They all ship us their elite fuel guzzlers, which most can't afford to drive in Europe !!!
They probably know it, but we don't ; that they are EXPORTING THEIR EXCESS RUG to PUG to us and we are complaining all the way to the next fill up. So perhaps the governments might be trying to shift policy a bit.
Refiners have throttled down gasoline production partly for annual maintenance, but mostly due to reduced driving ("Why should we continue to produce something that no one is buying?"). Diesel, on the other hand, is generally steady in demand and will increase with any economic rebound. So the vehicle manufacturers who have opted to introduce clean diesel may see themselves with a very interesting advantage this spring.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
In other locals, I am seeing RUG for up to 2.199.
..
... With the Danish method, the Argonne patent, International / Navistar and more, now having a truly formidable ally with General Electric and Tenneco, the SCR/urea debacle might be able to be STOPED, before Californians waste some real money.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
D2 $ 2.13
PUG $2.39
RUG $2.19
Like models
VW Jetta TDI, 50 mpg @ 2.13 =
VW Jetta 1.8T, 29 mpg @ 2.39 =
VW Jetta 2.0, 29 mpg @ 2.19 =
apples to oranges
Civic, 36 mpg@ 2.19=
IF the Civic TDI was available 56 mpg/2.13=
Current mpg standards are at 27 mpg. Keep in mind the DEFACTO avg mpg is 22 mpg/2.19-2.39=
The diesel deny 'ers would tell you or want you to think paying from 42.8% to 93.5% MORE( per mile driven) is.... BETTER !!!??? The CA Legislators want to raise gas taxes 12 cents or 67%.
Any questions why the CA legislators want to cut K-12 mathematics and science education spending !!?? :surprise: :sick: Opssssssssss.... off topic!!?? CLASS dismissed !!!
They hate competition!!!