Larsb, the reason we don't have all those great diesels in the U.S. is because of politics, not because diesel is dirty. I can't believe you are so naive as to think of this as a "conspiracy theory" what with all the corruption currently being exposed in Washington and Wall Street. Or is that all imaginary also?
That is the standard diesel proponent argument, and it's HISTORICALLY true (meaning it might have been true in the past) but it RIGHT NOW TODAY in 2008 is absolutely not true.
At least as far as the EPA is concerned. They have all sorts of diesel programs and projects in the works, as I posted yesterday.
To my knowledge and through the research I have done, there has not been one single investigative story EVER PUBLISHED that proves or insinuates that diesel cars are being politically blocked of that the oil companies or anyone else other than environmental groups have lobbied against them.
They have been blocked by environmental agencies and groups because of the health problems caused by the exhaust.
I'm neither naive nor uninformed. I just don't agree with throwing the EPA under the bus for something they have not done wrong.
And by the way - greed and corruption are not the same thing. The Wall Street problem came from greed - plain and simple.
A sharper rise in diesel fuel prices compared with gasoline and weaker vehicle demand means consumers may not benefit from a rollout next year, he said. Difficulty in lowering costs for the advanced engine could also work against the timeline, he said.
"We have to proceed cautiously in this environment," he said, adding that no official decision to delay the launch had been made.
They are hesitant in part I'd wager because of the failed Accord hybrid. Gun-shy.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Region 5’s Midwest Clean Diesel Initiative (MCDI) has awarded a $295,320 grant to for Wisconsin to use in its 2008 clean-diesel program.
Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, and Ohio have also each received $295,320 under the program. Matching grants from these states total $1.2 million.
State projects include a variety of solutions aimed at reducing diesel emissions from engines already in use, such as retrofit technologies, idle-reduction, cleaner fuel use, engine upgrades, and vehicle or equipment replacement.
"So you are a proponent of dirty diesel exhaust then?"
Dirty, compared to what? 30 years ago? Not a proponent of that, but compared to what Europe (not exactly a right-wing big-business-friendly ecology-be-damned area, by the way) has had for the last ten years? Yeah, I guess I am.
Environmentalists never liked diesel engines very much for their air-polluting soot. And maybe you didn't either when you were gagging on the fumes of a diesel truck or bus in front of you. Or if you owned a diesel car that was noisy, smelled bad and moved slowly.
But there is a lot less to dislike for both enviro-types and drivers in the newest diesels, in particular the ones that Mercedes-Benz has begun offering in its midsize ML-Class SUV and the larger R-Class and largest GL class SUVs.
The new engine's exhaust is clean enough that this diesel can be sold in New York and other states with stringent air-quality standards like California's. Credit for that goes to the introduction in America of ultra-low-sulfur fuel, plus the BlueTech's sulfur filters and technologies to reduce those enemies of the ozone layer: oxides of nitrogen. MB calls them BlueTech diesels, and you'll probably call them impressive if you test-drive one.
My ML320 tester's BlueTech was almost as vibration-free on start-up and acceleration as a six-or eight-cylinder gasoline engine. No oily diesel smell could be detected inside the vehicle. And acceleration was strong from a standing start thanks to a turbocharger and four valves per cylinder.
(Atlanta, GA – October 23, 2008) The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Region 4, as part of the Southeast Diesel Collaborative, presented grant awards of $295,320 each to the South Carolina Department of Health and Environmental Control and the North Carolina Department of Environment and Natural Resources to establish state diesel emission reduction grant programs. These funds were awarded under the Diesel Emissions Reduction Act (DERA) and will include a portion matched by the state to fund the program to a total of $492,200. With this funding, diesel emissions are expected to be reduced by over 100 tons by the end of the useful life of the diesel engines affected.
“EPA is proud to recognize the efforts of both North and South Carolina to improve air quality and protect public health,” said Jimmy Palmer, EPA Regional Administrator. “Emissions from diesel engines are a serious public health threat and environmental challenge, as well as a priority for EPA.”
However, the long term costs, not just fuel economy, can be quite high. The engine itself may be long lived, but all the emission add-ons are not. Thus, the overall cost per mile over a long period is likely not going to be all that different between gasoline and clean diesel in passenger car routine use.
I like diesel technology, but I think that ALL aspects need to be kept in mind. After all, there are no free lunches.
I AM A PROPONENT FOR and WANT TO SEE any and all diesel cars which can pass 50-state emission regulations.
And suppose CARB mandates ZEV cars and EPA follows. CA has done that in the past then waffled. With the only thing available for your trips to TX would be a GEM golf Cart. Then would you be so inclined to follow like a sheep? Your allegiance to CA and their whacked out laws is intriguing. The eco terrorists are about to run the state into bankruptcy with all the programs that shove business out of the State. You may think it is great. I don't.
greed and corruption are not the same thing. The Wall Street problem came from greed - plain and simple.
If not for Congressional corruption the greed would not have had the impact. Forcing lenders to loan good money to bad borrowers is motivated by the Government.
That is for another thread. Yes I have to agree on the Naivete when it comes to the EPA and CARB having a pure heart and clean hands. Nothing you have ever posted has given me any kind of thoughts in that direction. And the correspondence I have had with the EPA further convinces me they are in the pockets of the OIL companies.
There is no massive corrupt dark campaign to keep diesel out of this country. It's here already, it's been here for 100+ yrs. We drive next to diesel vehicles every day of our lives.
Your contention of a corrupt conspiracy along with that of the other 'injured' here is simply victim-speak for "I can't get my viewpoint accepted so there must be some unseen dark force keeping me from getting my way."
There is nothing dark about it at all. It's been in the open for several years now. GM, Ford and Toyota the three that control the NA market have decided together that diesel LPV vehicles don't fit in here. It's that simple.
If you want change then petition these three to make the vehicles you want.
"We have to proceed cautiously in this environment," he said, adding that no official decision to delay the launch had been made.
They are hesitant in part I'd wager because of the failed Accord hybrid. Gun-shy
I think that this is accurate as well. While Honda has been well-positioned in the switchover from BOFs to unibodies, it also has made several 'OOPS' when going in new directions... ..the Insight I was a good concept but it was not ready for prime time; ..the HAH was very good but it couldn't hold a candle to the TCH ( and now Fusion/Milan hybrids ) ( and soon the Aura/Malibu 2-Modes ) ..the euro-Accord got raves and had the loyalists licking their chops to get one but there was too much hype.... 50 MPG!!!!!! ...... NOT !! ..the HCH sales lag the Prius significantly.
Caution is a good idea. Why have the wonderful euro-Accord arrive, be put in the closet ( Acura store ), and have the buying public ignore it.
CA mandated 10% ZEV fleet by 1998. Then dropped the mandate. Given Ahnold and his kooky friends NOTHING would surprise me. How do you think they will pull off cutting CO2 emissions? CA passed that mandate without a single EV being built. Al Gore has called for total EV fleet by 2020.
From your buddies at CARB more convoluted legislation:
In late July, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) released more modifications to its ever-changing Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) regulation. Unfortunately, this current round continues to disappoint electric drive advocates. It adds unnecessary complexity instead of focusing on the goal of more plug-in cars on the road, sooner than later. Plug In America's formal comments on these changes will be submitted to CARB and posted on our web site on August 15th.
... I think some of the Diesel car shortage was actually a fear of CARB and EPA constantly moving the carrot. By the time one model is ready to pass, it's obsolete by October. Of course I think it's foolish not to have two standards one for spark ignition engines and one for compression ignition. This might have happened if there was an incentive for fuel mileage, and or an awareness of carbon output.
..."Al Gore has called for total EV fleet by 2020. "...
Al Gore is really not plugged into his party's lunatic fringe enough. 2012 is the Mayan prediction for the end of the world as we know it. Armageddon is predicted by Nostradamus (2012?). Environmentalists predicting nuclear winter that has long since come and gone and have since gotten behind a "warming" trend/ armageddon. There are a whole bunch of folks waiting for the rapture. ...
:lemon: :shades:
Me? I just want to get a new 2009 VW Jetta TDI, white or silver 6 speed manual or DSG for invoice plus. :surprise: :shades:
A bigger gas engine for those fast 0-60 sprints. Now that gas is down to $2 the fast cars will be the big sellers again. At least according to Honda.
Acura made quite a little splash when they announced a diesel version of the TSX was America-bound at this year’s NAIAS. Now, with much less fanfare, Vtec.net reports that “the i-DTEC TSX has been delayed indefinitely (if not cancelled outright).” The unnamed source says that an automatic transmission version hasn’t been able to pass 50-state emissions tests, and that Honda won’t go to market with only a manual on offer. Not that the fact that diesel is almost a dollar more expensive per gallon than gas in most markets is helping either. Nor are the other indications that diesel is dying. To make up for dropping the diesel, Acura will fast-track a V6 version of the TSX. Because all Americans know is torque.
That is because the Honda 4 banger has NO torque in the gas version. Of course the Honda CEO will lie and say it is the price of diesel. When in the main market there is only 20 cents difference. He does not want it to get out that his engineers screwed up.
Gary says, "Of course the Honda CEO will lie and say it is the price of diesel. When in the main market there is only 20 cents difference. He does not want it to get out that his engineers screwed up."
In the words of my hero Ronald RayGun (zap!): "There you go again."
There you go again making your own little personal interpretation. Again incorrect.
If you had been paying ATTENTION, you would have seen the OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT which I posted earlier, and not marched this "unsubstantiated rumor" out as fact.
So now, it's not CARB/EPA's fault, but a "engineering boo-boo?"
Everyone to you is a liar and a cheat, Gary. Don't know how you made it to your current age being that cynical and untrusting.
Some background, but way before the announcement of a diesel for the Acura TSX, that model was experiencing declining sales. The European auto press was less than complimentary of that model and its gasser version. Not many were sold in the US markets. So basically Honda/Acura was trying to make the best of a bad situation. It is akin to the "hardtop" Corvette version (GM) which did not meet with good sales. The boys at Chevrolet (GM) put their thinking caps on and morfed it into the Z06. Regardless of what one thinks of it, price performance beats almost all the competition (sans the Nissan 350 GT -S) and is hotter than hot even with this economic downturn. Hopefully Honda/Acura pulls something good off.
When in the main market there is only 20 cents difference.
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/index.asp , AAA's daily-updated report shows the price spread nationally is $0.80 per gallon between RUG and Diesel. For whatever reason, CA has one of the lowest spreads. Here in SW PA, the spread closely follows the national average. Until that spread disappears, or until the percentage decreases, I can't see myself buying a diesel at this point, even though I've driven the Jetta CleanDiesel and liked it a lot. The numbers don't seem to work in my favor, at my price point, at my annual miles driven.
The point is that you ran the numbers. I think also the system really wants the majority of folks to come to that conclusion also. Actually given the 12,000 to 15,000 annual miles, it is pretty easy to implement. They REALLY want you to use more petro products (RUG TO PUG) getting your 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year than LESS. The implementation keeps the passenger diesel population to 2%.
I am not trying to convince you of anything, just stating my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. If you disagree I don't really care. That is your business.
Even though it's the season for it don't you think that living a world populated by fears, goblins and conspiracies rather than facts is a little outdated? Just my opinion as well.
I did read Fukio's lame excuse with no mention that their diesel did not pass the EPA emissions. Are you saying all the sources that claim they failed the test are lying?
And as far as the AAA pricing they are not keeping a close eye on So CA gas prices. We are now just 20 cents separating RUG and Diesel. That is the largest auto market in the USA. I don't care what they charge in NYC.
If you want to believe the CEO is always telling the whole story, that is your right. I just happen to have been lied to by business and political leaders most of my 65 years and DO NOT BELIEVE most of what I hear. And from what I see in this election year it is getting WORSE not better.
When Fukio made the announcement of the Acura coming to the USA with a diesel engine in March. The price of diesel was about $2 more than it is today. So your theory holds NO water my friend.
Gary says, "Are you saying all the sources that claim they failed the test are lying? "
Well here we have two sources:
Anonymous Blogger
and
Honda Corporation Press Release
HHHHHMMMMM, Toto, I wonder which one is more trustworthy?
( So that one goes to me. Game over. )
Gary says, "If you want to believe the CEO is always telling the whole story, that is your right."
Well, I was raised to trust people until such time as they do you wrong. Not to approach a relationship with a lack of trust to start with. What kind of way is that to get along with people? Call them a liar THEN make them prove they are telling the truth? Who raised you, anyway?
What could have possibly been the harm to Honda if they did indeed fail the emissions test to just have one of the top engineers come out and say, "We are working hard to meet the EPA emissions requirement and are very close to achieving it." ????????????????????
Gary says, "So your theory holds NO water my friend. "
That's just it though - I don't have a "theory." I have a press release from Honda. That's not a theory.
Well, I'm well below the national average on annual miles driven, averaging something like 9,500 miles per year over the last 5 years. Much of it is suburban, but with occasional road trips for vacation and such. I'm probably a good candidate for a hybrid.
Gotta say, though, that the VW CleanDiesel Jetta was solid. Handled very nicely, the noise level was completely acceptable at cold start, and imperceptible when under way. Only drove it on a short suburban loop, but was impressed with its comfort and solidity.
I realize this might be off topic but you are even a LESSER candidate for a hybrid. For the amount of driving you do (9,500) something along the lines of a Corolla/Civic (and/or even less expensive) is really the way to go. Even further afield, I am real happy with a 04 Civic (@74,600) miles. Even as this week I had the 3rd alignment done and 2nd set of tires. (vs none needed for a VW TDI @ 100,000 and still running the tires @ 110,000 miles)
You will have other( fixed cost) issues. I would try to get the cheapest to insure vehicle in whatever range you decide. I can almost tell you it will be neither the TDI,Civic, nor hybrid. Oxymoronically the cheapest insurance of the lot is a Z06 ! Don't ask me why.
Yes, true. The less miles you drive the less you are a candidate for any new or expensive vehicle simply on the basis of fuel savings. At 5000 miles annually it really doesn't matter what vehicle you choose to drive, the differences in fuel used are nominal. At 5 miles annually an Abrams tank is also a valid choice.
It's at about 12000-15000 miles that the choice begins to make any difference in fuel usage and cost.
SOMEWHERE WEST OF WHEELING my co-driver and I hit 110 mph. We weren't in a Lamborghini or a Veyron. We were driving in an Audi A3 with 2.0 liter, 4-cylinder TDI diesel engine.
My current vehicles are a '03 Passat wagon that does fairly well on fuel (for a gasser) and a '97 Accord that's getting pretty long in the tooth and will eventually need to be replaced. Both are 4 cylinder models, the VW being a turbo. My wife is probably putting on the same amount of mileage as I am, per year, now, but her car has about 160K on it, and the rust demon is working on it.
Our work schedules are such that we can't combine and rid ourselves of one car.
My wife, out of the blue, recently told me that we need a minivan. Completely out of character for her - but she likes to take our kids and friends places. I'm put off by the mileage they get, but on the bright side, as pointed out, it really doesn't make that much of a difference, since we're so low mileage people. I'll probably keep my car another 5 years. Maybe another year or so for the Accord.
To keep this on topic, you'd think someone would have shoved a turbodiesel in a US model minivan by now. Now that's a vehicle screaming for better mileage.
Given your latest information, I'd say hold onto your current vehicles! Fixing is almost far cheaper than anything new you can possibly buy. HOWEVER IF you are so inclined.....
On the other hand, this is the best of times/worst of times to get a (new) vehicle. If you can manage to get all the factors in your favor and get (a coveted vehicle) at or below invoice, I'd say happy hunting. It seems that everything has at least one major downside to it.
I think there will be a host of deals on the 08 M's Y once the 09 MY more fully hit the markets. Industry folks like kdhspyder can chime in here, as I am no industry pundit, just a consumer making a (hopefully) logical swag.
So for example it makes NO sense to make a monthly payment for say a Honda minivan. Using your monthly mileage (9500/12=792 miles/500 mo payments= .63 cents a mile !!!!!! It goes on and on.
Honda had announced that they were going to bring a clean diesel Odyssey to the US market along with an MDX diesel. This apparently was subject to getting the Accord/TSX diesel accepted.
IMO both vehicles ( they are the same in fact ) are great opportunities for the introduction of new diesel technology. But the price of fuel is still a barrier.
My swag then is that the chances diminish (for both/either Odyssey/MDX), as the automatic transmission of the Acura/TSX diesel model did not pass muster: even as the 6 speed manual diesel passed. As you probably can better tell me, not many are 6 speed manuals (mine is a swag) .
While this is NOT a criticism, I would wonder about the durability of the automatic transmission mated to a torquey diesel. (given a prior post about the only one to really do automatic transmission to diesel mating well is MB 320/350 turbo diesel) I personally am crossing my fingers nothing happens to my automatic transmission in a (gasser) Civic, but at the same time, I am saving money for the repair as they tend to fail @ 225,000 miles as I have gleaned (statistically) . Keep in mind the Civic has relatively weak torque.
For my .02 cents, straw man, in light of there are exponentially MORE (both percentage and volume) of the population that "have/want to" buy PUG. PUG is even more than diesel and gets far less fuel mileage. Predictably, fuel cost per mile driven is ridiculously lopsided. As even the introduction of D2 people movers such as Odyssey/MDX is likely NOT likely to change the D2 passenger diesel population appreciably; let alone measurably or was that vice versa.
Kids get bigger, old cars get older. I'm not in the market now, I figure I can probably run the Honda to 200K, before the body is in serious trouble.
Who knows what the market will look like by then? Depends on the fuels available, depends if the economy recovers, depends if either of our cars get into trouble (like an accident).
If one of them bit the dust now, I'd probably look for a CPO Ody, or something similar.
The worlds biggest engine is the Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C. It is a turbo charged two stroke diesel engine and it is the most powerful and efficient low revolution engine in the world today. The Wartsila-Sulser is manufactured by the Aioi Works in Japan and is part of Japans Diesel United Ltd engine manufacturers. These engines are built in 6, 8, 10, 12 and 14 cylinder configurations. All the engines are straight or 'inline'. The diameter of each cylinder is 3 foot 2 inches with a stroke of 8 foot 2 inches. The 12 cylinder version weighs in at 2000 metric tons and delivers 90,000 Horse Power at 100 Revs per minute, with best fuel economy at 53,244 HP at 90 Rpm. When I mention economy, the 14 cylinder engine for example with a displacement of 25,480 Litres ( 1.56 million cubic inches ) burns up 1,660 gallons of crude ("bunker") oil every hour..The Mathematical calculation : 1,660 gallons/per hour = 39.5 barrels of crude oil/used per hour = $2,844. These figures are worked out from the basis of crude oil @ $72 a barrel*.
My question is how much pollution this produces per hour with 3000+ PPM sulfur bunker oil? I thought Japan was at the leading edge of cutting pollution. Isn't Kyoto a Japanese word? Maybe they made a deal that they will sell so many Prius for each one of these monsters.
... The thing that gets me, and seemingly no one else, if it's burning crude or the least refined product, why is there not more talk of the HUGE wastefulness going on at many refineries. Every refiner on Earth ought to have a moral or legal obligation to produce power from all the end gasses that they either burn off or release to the atmosphere. So sometimes these monsters can burn oil right out of the ground. What is the bottom line, big picture, of power produced to the entire pollution output ???
Oil refineries use huge amounts of power and the ones I know of generate that power on-site.............but I must admit there is a gap in my knowledge as to the fuel(s) used by the on-site generation plants. I'd always assumed it was refinery by-products but now I come to think of it, that assumption is merely that - an assumption; i.e. no facts to back it up.
... I've been aware for many years that these giant engines can run crude right out of the ground; however as far as I know it's only done in an emergency. It amazes me to think of how much could be saved if crude could be filtered and maybe heated, with no other steps, but it would have to be mighty sweet to be low enough sulphur.
but it would have to be mighty sweet to be low enough sulphur.
If you compare crude prices around the World you see a big variation. A lot of that has to do with the Sulfur content. Iranian crude is very high in sulfur and not as much in demand. I read that these big bunker oil engines will run whatever you feed them. So that does not bode well for the air quality where they are being used. I would imagine that the main purpose in building those engines is to use the cheapest crude they can find.
... Gary, one of my points is, that they took the refinery, next store or a hundred miles away, completely out of the loop. So, with stack scrubbers, (on the engine) how much is the overall air quality ahead, not to mention all the other leftover usable and non-usable byproducts.
Comments
Well, thanks for that. I don't know what the rest of us unwashed would do without folks like you to help us figure out how to live our lives.
I AM A PROPONENT FOR and WANT TO SEE any and all diesel cars which can pass 50-state emission regulations.
Period.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That is the standard diesel proponent argument, and it's HISTORICALLY true (meaning it might have been true in the past) but it RIGHT NOW TODAY in 2008 is absolutely not true.
At least as far as the EPA is concerned. They have all sorts of diesel programs and projects in the works, as I posted yesterday.
To my knowledge and through the research I have done, there has not been one single investigative story EVER PUBLISHED that proves or insinuates that diesel cars are being politically blocked of that the oil companies or anyone else other than environmental groups have lobbied against them.
They have been blocked by environmental agencies and groups because of the health problems caused by the exhaust.
I'm neither naive nor uninformed. I just don't agree with throwing the EPA under the bus for something they have not done wrong.
And by the way - greed and corruption are not the same thing. The Wall Street problem came from greed - plain and simple.
Apparently, NOT because emissions tests failed
A sharper rise in diesel fuel prices compared with gasoline and weaker vehicle demand means consumers may not benefit from a rollout next year, he said. Difficulty in lowering costs for the advanced engine could also work against the timeline, he said.
"We have to proceed cautiously in this environment," he said, adding that no official decision to delay the launch had been made.
They are hesitant in part I'd wager because of the failed Accord hybrid. Gun-shy.
It's so boring being right all the time........
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Region 5’s Midwest Clean Diesel Initiative (MCDI) has awarded a $295,320 grant to for Wisconsin to use in its 2008 clean-diesel program.
Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, and Ohio have also each received $295,320 under the program. Matching grants from these states total $1.2 million.
State projects include a variety of solutions aimed at reducing diesel emissions from engines already in use, such as retrofit technologies, idle-reduction, cleaner fuel use, engine upgrades, and vehicle or equipment replacement.
Dirty, compared to what? 30 years ago? Not a proponent of that, but compared to what Europe (not exactly a right-wing big-business-friendly ecology-be-damned area, by the way) has had for the last ten years? Yeah, I guess I am.
Another "we like"
Environmentalists never liked diesel engines very much for their air-polluting soot. And maybe you didn't either when you were gagging on the fumes of a diesel truck or bus in front of you. Or if you owned a diesel car that was noisy, smelled bad and moved slowly.
But there is a lot less to dislike for both enviro-types and drivers in the newest diesels, in particular the ones that Mercedes-Benz has begun offering in its midsize ML-Class SUV and the larger R-Class and largest GL class SUVs.
The new engine's exhaust is clean enough that this diesel can be sold in New York and other states with stringent air-quality standards like California's. Credit for that goes to the introduction in America of ultra-low-sulfur fuel, plus the BlueTech's sulfur filters and technologies to reduce those enemies of the ozone layer: oxides of nitrogen. MB calls them BlueTech diesels, and you'll probably call them impressive if you test-drive one.
My ML320 tester's BlueTech was almost as vibration-free on start-up and acceleration as a six-or eight-cylinder gasoline engine. No oily diesel smell could be detected inside the vehicle. And acceleration was strong from a standing start thanks to a turbocharger and four valves per cylinder.
More retrofits
(Atlanta, GA – October 23, 2008) The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Region 4, as part of the Southeast Diesel Collaborative, presented grant awards of $295,320 each to the South Carolina Department of Health and Environmental Control and the North Carolina Department of Environment and Natural Resources to establish state diesel emission reduction grant programs. These funds were awarded under the Diesel Emissions Reduction Act (DERA) and will include a portion matched by the state to fund the program to a total of $492,200. With this funding, diesel emissions are expected to be reduced by over 100 tons by the end of the useful life of the diesel engines affected.
“EPA is proud to recognize the efforts of both North and South Carolina to improve air quality and protect public health,” said Jimmy Palmer, EPA Regional Administrator. “Emissions from diesel engines are a serious public health threat and environmental challenge, as well as a priority for EPA.”
I like diesel technology, but I think that ALL aspects need to be kept in mind. After all, there are no free lunches.
And suppose CARB mandates ZEV cars and EPA follows. CA has done that in the past then waffled. With the only thing available for your trips to TX would be a GEM golf Cart. Then would you be so inclined to follow like a sheep? Your allegiance to CA and their whacked out laws is intriguing. The eco terrorists are about to run the state into bankruptcy with all the programs that shove business out of the State. You may think it is great. I don't.
If not for Congressional corruption the greed would not have had the impact. Forcing lenders to loan good money to bad borrowers is motivated by the Government.
That is for another thread. Yes I have to agree on the Naivete when it comes to the EPA and CARB having a pure heart and clean hands. Nothing you have ever posted has given me any kind of thoughts in that direction. And the correspondence I have had with the EPA further convinces me they are in the pockets of the OIL companies.
Puh-leeze. Now you are getting into "coo-koo for Cocoa-Puffs" territory.
You know as well as I do that neither the public, nor the infrastructure, nor the carmakers, nor the technology is ready for a 100% ZEV fleet.
Maybe 30 years from now, sure. But not today.
Your contention of a corrupt conspiracy along with that of the other 'injured' here is simply victim-speak for "I can't get my viewpoint accepted so there must be some unseen dark force keeping me from getting my way."
There is nothing dark about it at all. It's been in the open for several years now. GM, Ford and Toyota the three that control the NA market have decided together that diesel LPV vehicles don't fit in here. It's that simple.
If you want change then petition these three to make the vehicles you want.
They are hesitant in part I'd wager because of the failed Accord hybrid. Gun-shy
I think that this is accurate as well. While Honda has been well-positioned in the switchover from BOFs to unibodies, it also has made several 'OOPS' when going in new directions...
..the Insight I was a good concept but it was not ready for prime time;
..the HAH was very good but it couldn't hold a candle to the TCH ( and now Fusion/Milan hybrids ) ( and soon the Aura/Malibu 2-Modes )
..the euro-Accord got raves and had the loyalists licking their chops to get one but there was too much hype.... 50 MPG!!!!!! ...... NOT !!
..the HCH sales lag the Prius significantly.
Caution is a good idea. Why have the wonderful euro-Accord arrive, be put in the closet ( Acura store ), and have the buying public ignore it.
From your buddies at CARB more convoluted legislation:
In late July, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) released more modifications to its ever-changing Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) regulation. Unfortunately, this current round continues to disappoint electric drive advocates. It adds unnecessary complexity instead of focusing on the goal of more plug-in cars on the road, sooner than later. Plug In America's formal comments on these changes will be submitted to CARB and posted on our web site on August 15th.
http://action.pluginamerica.org/blastContent.jsp?email_blast_KEY=1111598&t=
Al Gore is really not plugged into his party's lunatic fringe enough. 2012 is the Mayan prediction for the end of the world as we know it. Armageddon is predicted by Nostradamus (2012?). Environmentalists predicting nuclear winter that has long since come and gone and have since gotten behind a "warming" trend/ armageddon. There are a whole bunch of folks waiting for the rapture. ...
Me? I just want to get a new 2009 VW Jetta TDI, white or silver 6 speed manual or DSG for invoice plus. :surprise: :shades:
Acura made quite a little splash when they announced a diesel version of the TSX was America-bound at this year’s NAIAS. Now, with much less fanfare, Vtec.net reports that “the i-DTEC TSX has been delayed indefinitely (if not cancelled outright).” The unnamed source says that an automatic transmission version hasn’t been able to pass 50-state emissions tests, and that Honda won’t go to market with only a manual on offer. Not that the fact that diesel is almost a dollar more expensive per gallon than gas in most markets is helping either. Nor are the other indications that diesel is dying. To make up for dropping the diesel, Acura will fast-track a V6 version of the TSX. Because all Americans know is torque.
That is because the Honda 4 banger has NO torque in the gas version. Of course the Honda CEO will lie and say it is the price of diesel. When in the main market there is only 20 cents difference. He does not want it to get out that his engineers screwed up.
In the words of my hero Ronald RayGun (zap!): "There you go again."
There you go again making your own little personal interpretation. Again incorrect.
If you had been paying ATTENTION, you would have seen the OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT which I posted earlier, and not marched this "unsubstantiated rumor" out as fact.
So now, it's not CARB/EPA's fault, but a "engineering boo-boo?"
Everyone to you is a liar and a cheat, Gary. Don't know how you made it to your current age being that cynical and untrusting.
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/index.asp , AAA's daily-updated report shows the price spread nationally is $0.80 per gallon between RUG and Diesel. For whatever reason, CA has one of the lowest spreads. Here in SW PA, the spread closely follows the national average. Until that spread disappears, or until the percentage decreases, I can't see myself buying a diesel at this point, even though I've driven the Jetta CleanDiesel and liked it a lot. The numbers don't seem to work in my favor, at my price point, at my annual miles driven.
I hope you live well and prosper as I have.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Peace.
And as far as the AAA pricing they are not keeping a close eye on So CA gas prices. We are now just 20 cents separating RUG and Diesel. That is the largest auto market in the USA. I don't care what they charge in NYC.
If you want to believe the CEO is always telling the whole story, that is your right. I just happen to have been lied to by business and political leaders most of my 65 years and DO NOT BELIEVE most of what I hear. And from what I see in this election year it is getting WORSE not better.
When Fukio made the announcement of the Acura coming to the USA with a diesel engine in March. The price of diesel was about $2 more than it is today. So your theory holds NO water my friend.
Well here we have two sources:
Anonymous Blogger
and
Honda Corporation Press Release
HHHHHMMMMM, Toto, I wonder which one is more trustworthy?
( So that one goes to me. Game over. )
Gary says, "If you want to believe the CEO is always telling the whole story, that is your right."
Well, I was raised to trust people until such time as they do you wrong. Not to approach a relationship with a lack of trust to start with. What kind of way is that to get along with people? Call them a liar THEN make them prove they are telling the truth? Who raised you, anyway?
What could have possibly been the harm to Honda if they did indeed fail the emissions test to just have one of the top engineers come out and say, "We are working hard to meet the EPA emissions requirement and are very close to achieving it." ????????????????????
Gary says, "So your theory holds NO water my friend. "
That's just it though - I don't have a "theory." I have a press release from Honda. That's not a theory.
Gotta say, though, that the VW CleanDiesel Jetta was solid. Handled very nicely, the noise level was completely acceptable at cold start, and imperceptible when under way. Only drove it on a short suburban loop, but was impressed with its comfort and solidity.
You will have other( fixed cost) issues. I would try to get the cheapest to insure vehicle in whatever range you decide. I can almost tell you it will be neither the TDI,Civic, nor hybrid. Oxymoronically the cheapest insurance of the lot is a Z06 ! Don't ask me why.
It's at about 12000-15000 miles that the choice begins to make any difference in fuel usage and cost.
55 MPG at 85 MPH
SOMEWHERE WEST OF WHEELING my co-driver and I hit 110 mph. We weren't in a Lamborghini or a Veyron. We were driving in an Audi A3 with 2.0 liter, 4-cylinder TDI diesel engine.
Our work schedules are such that we can't combine and rid ourselves of one car.
My wife, out of the blue, recently told me that we need a minivan. Completely out of character for her - but she likes to take our kids and friends places. I'm put off by the mileage they get, but on the bright side, as pointed out, it really doesn't make that much of a difference, since we're so low mileage people. I'll probably keep my car another 5 years. Maybe another year or so for the Accord.
To keep this on topic, you'd think someone would have shoved a turbodiesel in a US model minivan by now. Now that's a vehicle screaming for better mileage.
On the other hand, this is the best of times/worst of times to get a (new) vehicle. If you can manage to get all the factors in your favor and get (a coveted vehicle) at or below invoice, I'd say happy hunting. It seems that everything has at least one major downside to it.
I think there will be a host of deals on the 08 M's Y once the 09 MY more fully hit the markets. Industry folks like kdhspyder can chime in here, as I am no industry pundit, just a consumer making a (hopefully) logical swag.
So for example it makes NO sense to make a monthly payment for say a Honda minivan. Using your monthly mileage (9500/12=792 miles/500 mo payments= .63 cents a mile !!!!!! It goes on and on.
IMO both vehicles ( they are the same in fact ) are great opportunities for the introduction of new diesel technology. But the price of fuel is still a barrier.
While this is NOT a criticism, I would wonder about the durability of the automatic transmission mated to a torquey diesel. (given a prior post about the only one to really do automatic transmission to diesel mating well is MB 320/350 turbo diesel) I personally am crossing my fingers nothing happens to my automatic transmission in a (gasser) Civic, but at the same time, I am saving money for the repair as they tend to fail @ 225,000 miles as I have gleaned (statistically) . Keep in mind the Civic has relatively weak torque.
For my .02 cents, straw man, in light of there are exponentially MORE (both percentage and volume) of the population that "have/want to" buy PUG. PUG is even more than diesel and gets far less fuel mileage. Predictably, fuel cost per mile driven is ridiculously lopsided. As even the introduction of D2 people movers such as Odyssey/MDX is likely NOT likely to change the D2 passenger diesel population appreciably; let alone measurably or was that vice versa.
Corner store prices
RUG 3.29
PUG 3.55
D2 3.09
Who knows what the market will look like by then? Depends on the fuels available, depends if the economy recovers, depends if either of our cars get into trouble (like an accident).
If one of them bit the dust now, I'd probably look for a CPO Ody, or something similar.
The Wartsila-Sulser is manufactured by the Aioi Works in Japan and is part of Japans Diesel United Ltd engine manufacturers.
These engines are built in 6, 8, 10, 12 and 14 cylinder configurations. All the engines are straight or 'inline'. The diameter of each cylinder is 3 foot 2 inches with a stroke of 8 foot 2 inches. The 12 cylinder version weighs in at 2000 metric tons and delivers 90,000 Horse Power at 100 Revs per minute, with best fuel economy at 53,244 HP at 90 Rpm.
When I mention economy, the 14 cylinder engine for example with a displacement of 25,480 Litres ( 1.56 million cubic inches ) burns up 1,660 gallons of crude ("bunker") oil every hour..The Mathematical calculation : 1,660 gallons/per hour = 39.5 barrels of crude oil/used per hour = $2,844. These figures are worked out from the basis of crude oil @ $72 a barrel*.
My question is how much pollution this produces per hour with 3000+ PPM sulfur bunker oil? I thought Japan was at the leading edge of cutting pollution. Isn't Kyoto a Japanese word? Maybe they made a deal that they will sell so many Prius for each one of these monsters.
To get some idea of what this super-diesel powers, go here :
Emma Maersk
Do read the section on "Engine and Environment". Lots of pics around the 'net, of this, the world's largest ship, if you're interested
Anyone on here have the answer ?
If you compare crude prices around the World you see a big variation. A lot of that has to do with the Sulfur content. Iranian crude is very high in sulfur and not as much in demand. I read that these big bunker oil engines will run whatever you feed them. So that does not bode well for the air quality where they are being used. I would imagine that the main purpose in building those engines is to use the cheapest crude they can find.